Natalee Case Discussion #840 6/17/10 - 6/22/10

[Tylergal]

Has this been discussed yet?

It was said that Stephany broke her neck. And that the tennis racket was used as a weapon.

Is Joran left or right handed? And where was Stephany hit in her neck: at her right side or at her left side?
In other words: did he attack her from behind or while he was facing her?
I have the feeling that he wanted to rob her and premeditated her killing. And that because of that attacked her from behind - maybe while she was playing poker or looking in his laptop.

Anybody can answer that?

IIRC there was no DNA on the tennis racquet.....I don't believe it was used in her murder.  In fact, joran has admitted strangling her and suffocating her when he realized she was not dead from the strangling.

And the broken neck?

It was originally reported that he may have banged her head agains tthe solid wooden bedframe.  At one point Joran said he threw her to the floor.  He also said he held her by the neck and hit her.

So I guess it is not known exactly what he did as yet.  But it is not believed that any weapon was used.  He did it all with his bare hands including beating her eyes out of the sockets.

I think it was Jinasaurus but I could be mistaken who said they were able to re-create the scene without Joran's help and could tell from where she was hit and how and with what force by the blood spatters, etc.

[Tylergal]

hi can!
Jo-Ann, The forensics will show which injuries were sustained while her heart was still beating ( blood flowing) and the position of death will show from the coloration of her body from livor mortis. ( collection of blood/capillary action/discoloration as the body breaks down tissues, etc). I feel that he repeatedly beat her as she was unconscious, but still alive to produce a final death, overkill, if you will, after the first RAGE based strike, which may have been the nose ( blood still flowing ). He won't admit to this of course, or he "blacks out" in rage/thrill of the moment. (< poor choice of words, but I feel this characterizes that kind of violence with JVDS)
IMHO
Selena

Waving hello to Selena.  Good seeing you.  When server up to full speed, "can we talk?" (quoting one of my favorite comics) LOL.  Have a good weekend and that is good information.  I heard some "expert" say that on TV but you said it so much better.  Ciao.

[Tylergal]

Has this been discussed yet?

It was said that Stephany broke her neck. And that the tennis racket was used as a weapon.

Is Joran left or right handed? And where was Stephany hit in her neck: at her right side or at her left side?
In other words: did he attack her from behind or while he was facing her?
I have the feeling that he wanted to rob her and premeditated her killing. And that because of that attacked her from behind - maybe while she was playing poker or looking in his laptop.

Anybody can answer that?

What if he attacked her when they first walked in the room from behind.  He hit her to make her unconscious and then did the rest.  It was said he strangeled her with his shirt.  So this means she wasn't dead when her neck was broken.

I thought he strangled her with his hands and suffocated her with his shirt after throwing her on the floor and seeing she was still breathing???   

I wonder if he has some kind of sexual perversion and his only (hrumph) uh, uh, uh, (???) is by killing someone, that it turns him on and off.

[Tylergal]

Anita says Joran told her he was being followed and he was robbed and two men showed him pictures of Natalee.

I don't believe this happened, but was he being haunted by Natalee's death? He knew the stress of Natalee's murder lead to his father's death. Was he paranoid something was going to happen to him next?

What a frigging liar he is.  I bet that old bag make that up.

[Tylergal]

Does the Netherland have anything like our Hippa Law?  I wonder if indeed arrangements had been made for the monster to go into a treatment program?  OR....is anita lying about this and trying to lay more ground work for an insanity plea? 

Please don't stone me....but at times, while reading this, I almost felt sorry for her.....but it was only momentarily.

BUMP...

What do you mean our HIPPA law?  HIPPA is concerned with privacy.

[Tylergal]

...the person who would have stood in the way of him being committed had to be ANITA. she would not admit that he had a problem...what if he "confessed" in treatment....what a story that would have been. I see Anita as the reason he never got the help he needed. Send him to college, here, there, everywhere else...
S

AMEN, AMEN, SING IT, SISTER, SING IT.

[Tylergal]

Jo-Ann,
I think he met and exceeded those requirements but the Sloots saw his admission into a mental hospital as a liability after all the lies about how normal he "is".
Anita probably shot it down.
IMHO
S

If they admitted he was kukoo for koko puffs, they could not parade him out and talk about what a genius he was and how many scholarships he had received and what a good boy he is and how he is a tennis star, a soccer star, a mensa, and on and on.  These F88888s did not want to admit they had willingly, wittingly raised a monster in whose vices they aided and abetted.

[Tamikosmom]

Interview with Anita van der Sloot - De Telegraaf - June 19th 2010

The actual interview:

Target

..... It then became clear that Joran had been a target for an FBI-operation in Aruba. "I thought it was strange that the attorney for the Holloways was on the island. I now believe that Joran might have done something to Stephany in Peru. Maybe an act of rage? I don't know. I'm very saddened that that businessman Flores lost his daughter, and I my son. That's the way it feels like." .....

Transcript: Van der Sloots Speak
Thursday, June 23, 2005

ANITA VAN DER SLOOT, MOTHER OF DUTCH SUSPECT: It's extremely tough. He's in custody now for 13, 14 days, I think. I have lost count. And I love my child. I believe in him 200 percent. And it's just like a big nightmare. We don't know how to deal with it because you can't deal with it. We think about the family a lot because their life is a nightmare, too, but our life is a nightmare, too.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160471,00.html

[Tylergal]

If it is true that Paulus' family looked down on Anita and thought he married beneath himself because of her past, perhaps that played into her extreme denial.  She needed to convince herself she was such an excellent mother.  Remember they didn't get married until Joran was already 2 yo and Val was weell on the way.

Maybe admitting Joran was totally defective was to Anita also admitting that she was also unworthy.  There was just too much bragging about Joran and how smart he was in the beginning.  He's about dull/normal at best but to hear his supporters, Joran was some kind of genius.  Well, maybe he is by Aruban standards but by the rest of the world he just isn't.

Anita didn't want to prove the Sloot clan had been right about her all along.

Just a thought.

Out of three children she has raised it seems that there is only one with a promising future.

And he probably has an ego that will sooner or later lead to his criminal behavior peaking.

[canoworms]

Jo-Ann,
I think he met and exceeded those requirements but the Sloots saw his admission into a mental hospital as a liability after all the lies about how normal he "is".
Anita probably shot it down.
IMHO
S

Being a danger to yourself and society only applies to current events, not things that happened in the past. I don't think there was an acute reason for him to be admitted. That's an important requirement - the acuteness.
If he didn't want to be admitted and Anita and/or a doctor did, they would've had to have a court order.
And I don't think any court would've given that, because there was no acute reason.

The acute reason happened on May 30, 2005.
Court adjourned.

[canoworms]

Godfather Van der Stratten suggested or implored that it be done- get treatment in a facility-( someone will correct me on this if it is all hearsay ).
It was ignored. It was ignored because of the implications after the fact, the circumstances of May 30, 2005. It killed Paul. It is and was and will be a menace, in the past, present, and future.

If he was to be admitted for a gambling problem, look to Paul. If it was for abusive behavior, look to Anita.
His own brothers are a testament to this before May 30, Natalee is a testament to this May 30, 2005, and Jorans own words and deeds since that date amplify the situation. Stephany did not need to die for anyone to agree there was a pre-existing dangerous condition.

Selena

[can]

On Monday a reconstruction of the crime will be done.

Does this mean the prosecution will present their reconstruction based on the evidence, to the judge?

Initially they intended to take Joran back to the room to do a reconstruction, but I think they decided against it based on security reasons and their own ability to piece it together based on the vast amount of crime scene evidence.

I still wish they had taken Joran back there. 

[SunnyinTX]

Does the Netherland have anything like our Hippa Law?  I wonder if indeed arrangements had been made for the monster to go into a treatment program?  OR....is anita lying about this and trying to lay more ground work for an insanity plea? 

Please don't stone me....but at times, while reading this, I almost felt sorry for her.....but it was only momentarily.

BUMP...

What do you mean our HIPPA law?  HIPPA is concerned with privacy.

Exactly....I was wonder if it could be checked that he was supposedly going into some kind of treatment program..or were there laws to protect that information from being released

[Jo-An]

Does the Netherland have anything like our Hippa Law?  I wonder if indeed arrangements had been made for the monster to go into a treatment program?  OR....is anita lying about this and trying to lay more ground work for an insanity plea? 

Please don't stone me....but at times, while reading this, I almost felt sorry for her.....but it was only momentarily.

BUMP...

What do you mean our HIPPA law?  HIPPA is concerned with privacy.

Exactly....I was wonder if it could be checked that he was supposedly going into some kind of treatment program..or were there laws to protect that information from being released

Yes, there is a Dutch law called Wbp, that protects this kind of private information.
This law covers a wide range; from direct marketing to medical information, to give just a few examples.
For instance; I work in HR and when an employee calls in sick, I am not allowed to ask them what their illness is.

[the big hammer]

Van Der Stratten Offer - June, 2005

canoworms said: "...Godfather Van der Stratten suggested or implored that it be done- get treatment in a facility-( someone will correct me on this if it is all hearsay )..."

I believe van der Stratten is on written record suggesting to the goon during polis interrogations on Aruba after Natalee's disappearance as saying to jvds that a "mental facility" is option -- 2 years.  The interrogation records and transcripts should still be available in the Important Case Documents thread here on SM.

I was evidently very clear to the Aruban Polis Chief that "something bad happened"  -  indeed.  

.

[SunnyinTX]

Does the Netherland have anything like our Hippa Law?  I wonder if indeed arrangements had been made for the monster to go into a treatment program?  OR....is anita lying about this and trying to lay more ground work for an insanity plea? 

Please don't stone me....but at times, while reading this, I almost felt sorry for her.....but it was only momentarily.

BUMP...

What do you mean our HIPPA law?  HIPPA is concerned with privacy.

Exactly....I was wonder if it could be checked that he was supposedly going into some kind of treatment program..or were there laws to protect that information from being released

Yes, there is a Dutch law called Wbp, that protects this kind of private information.
This law covers a wide range; from direct marketing to medical information, to give just a few examples.
For instance; I work in HR and when an employee calls in sick, I am not allowed to ask them what their illness is.

thanks Jo-An so there is no way to verify anita's story.....very convenient!!

[JA]

We know he murdered Stephany.  We know he is a habitual liar.  We know he robbed her.

I still don't buy his story and think he is trying to use it as the defense that he was temporarily insane.  Think about it. . .We are assuming she did not go to his room to voluntarly have sex with him.  It wasn't her habit to do this, she was reported as to possibly being a lesbian, and she had her period.  So then she is looking at his computer undressed?

I think he friended her with his "charm."  She decided to go back to his room to either plan some online poker, or possibly have him pay her back from a loan.  She was already intoxicated, although we have no idea to what extent.  He drugs her with a date rape drug.  His intention is to rob her and as a side activity have sex with her.  She takes longer than he expects to pass out or render herself helpless.  They possibly play online poker, or he waits for her to pass out. he finds out that she doesn't have as much money as he thought on her, or she is unable to give him her pin. He forcibly starts to remove her clothes either while she is semi-conscious or she struggles.  It angers him that she has her period and wants oral sex.  She refuses in a haze and starts to put up a fight.  She may say something that angers him and he loses it.  Pent up frustration and anger from not having money, having friends refuse him loans, his family withdrawing from him, and not getting his way with Steapnhy sexually all cause him to take it out on Stephany.  When he sees what he has done, he gets even angrier, blaming Stephany for getting HIM into this situation (After all- if she had given him money and given him sex, he wouldn't have gotten mad.)  He then continues to lash out at her giving her the strangulaton and final blows.  He then cleans up and starts to make his plans.

Either that or he tried to force himself on her and found out she had her period.  Annoyed he goes to take a shower.  She wakes up in a semihaze, unsure of where she is and sees his laptop open.  She reaches over to take a look at it and sees some information she shouldn't.  he comes out fo the bathroom and she confronts him.  maybe she was goignt o lend him money earlier, but now she isn't.  She wants to leave.  joran wants money.  He tries to prevent her from getting dressed and is rough with her in an argement.  She becomes unconscious or semiconscious.  Joran is angry with her for his siuation, as int he earlier scenario.  He lashes out at her and causes her brutal beating and death.

But I don't think most really care why he did it.  He needs to pay for this murder, regardless.  Plain and simple.   It is not the American justice system.  This is Peru. get him a lawyer, give him his sentence, encarcerate him according to their law. 

Learn to cope with Peruvian prison life the best you can Joran.  It isn't about you. . . it is about justice for Stephany.

[Jo-An]

Does the Netherland have anything like our Hippa Law?  I wonder if indeed arrangements had been made for the monster to go into a treatment program?  OR....is anita lying about this and trying to lay more ground work for an insanity plea? 

Please don't stone me....but at times, while reading this, I almost felt sorry for her.....but it was only momentarily.

BUMP...

What do you mean our HIPPA law?  HIPPA is concerned with privacy.

Exactly....I was wonder if it could be checked that he was supposedly going into some kind of treatment program..or were there laws to protect that information from being released

Yes, there is a Dutch law called Wbp, that protects this kind of private information.
This law covers a wide range; from direct marketing to medical information, to give just a few examples.
For instance; I work in HR and when an employee calls in sick, I am not allowed to ask them what their illness is.

thanks Jo-An so there is no way to verify anita's story.....very convenient!!

Well, there was Terror Jaap; in one of his blogs he also mentioned that Joran was going into treatment and also start some sort of schooling/work project.
He also said that he and a confidant of Joran's tried for a year, to convince Joran to have himself admitted - but they failed. And that now finally he had said "yes" and a week later Stephany was killed.

[canoworms]

thanks Big Hammer,
FTR I worked with juveniles in rehabilitation, Department of Family and Children's Services for low incidence Abuse and Neglect cases, Mentally Handicapped ( Autism and Aspergers' disorder, Behavior disordered) sat on Tribunals for Alternative school disputes, worked with the County Jail to make sure youthful offenders received medications and medical reviews when incarcerated and sat through a trial with my own son when he was severely abused and made sure the offender was contained and received psychiatric help.
These are not opinions I offer about VDS. We have enough information available to see the problem and know it should have been addressed. The ball was dropped.
Selena

[SunnyinTX]

Does the Netherland have anything like our Hippa Law?  I wonder if indeed arrangements had been made for the monster to go into a treatment program?  OR....is anita lying about this and trying to lay more ground work for an insanity plea? 

Please don't stone me....but at times, while reading this, I almost felt sorry for her.....but it was only momentarily.

BUMP...

What do you mean our HIPPA law?  HIPPA is concerned with privacy.

Exactly....I was wonder if it could be checked that he was supposedly going into some kind of treatment program..or were there laws to protect that information from being released

Yes, there is a Dutch law called Wbp, that protects this kind of private information.
This law covers a wide range; from direct marketing to medical information, to give just a few examples.
For instance; I work in HR and when an employee calls in sick, I am not allowed to ask them what their illness is.

thanks Jo-An so there is no way to verify anita's story.....very convenient!!

Well, there was Terror Jaap; in one of his blogs he also mentioned that Joran was going into treatment and also start some sort of schooling/work project.
He also said that he and a confidant of Joran's tried for a year, to convince Joran to have himself admitted - but they failed. And that now finally he had said "yes" and a week later Stephany was killed.

ooowwwwwweeeee I didn't think about Jaap.......I have a feeling all this might go in his favor .....scary thought!