Natalee Case Discussion #840 6/17/10 - 6/22/10

[MuffyBee]

I think Joran kicked and stomped on both Natalee and Stephany.   And I think Joran may very well have struck Stephany in the head/face with his elbow and that may have been what caused damage to her eye/eyes.  Using the elbow for an attack is bone on bone.  Listen to the video, it explains this.  And it even mentions soft tissue near the eye.   In self defense classes, it's pointed out to students that the elbow makes a very, very good se;f defemse weapon, but of course in the case of Joran's attack on Stephany it was an offensive maneuver.

http://www.ehow.com/video_2368024_using-elbows-selfdefense-women.html

[Gypsy DD]

Does the Netherland have anything like our Hippa Law?  I wonder if indeed arrangements had been made for the monster to go into a treatment program?  OR....is anita lying about this and trying to lay more ground work for an insanity plea? 

Please don't stone me....but at times, while reading this, I almost felt sorry for her.....but it was only momentarily.

BUMP...

What do you mean our HIPPA law?  HIPPA is concerned with privacy.

Exactly....I was wonder if it could be checked that he was supposedly going into some kind of treatment program..or were there laws to protect that information from being released

Yes, there is a Dutch law called Wbp, that protects this kind of private information.
This law covers a wide range; from direct marketing to medical information, to give just a few examples.
For instance; I work in HR and when an employee calls in sick, I am not allowed to ask them what their illness is.

thanks Jo-An so there is no way to verify anita's story.....very convenient!!

Well, there was Terror Jaap; in one of his blogs he also mentioned that Joran was going into treatment and also start some sort of schooling/work project.
He also said that he and a confidant of Joran's tried for a year, to convince Joran to have himself admitted - but they failed. And that now finally he had said "yes" and a week later Stephany was killed.

ooowwwwwweeeee I didn't think about Jaap.......I have a feeling all this might go in his favor .....scary thought!

So (thinking outloud here)..does Peru make exception for someone being insane or temporary insanity? 
Somehow I doubt that they do..other then keep him in prison for the crime and give him meds. 

I am saying this because several states in the US have that same outcome....mine being one of them.  If you are found to be legally insane..it really doesn't matter..you do the crime you do the time.  They will have you see a psych once a month ..give you meds he suggests and that is it..you are still in the cell for life if you kill someone.  And no you do not get therapy sessions for murder.

[Kat_Gram]

Wasn't he in a facility before, about two years ago in the NL ?
Then he went to Thailand ?
...
As far as the meida hounding him, etc, he courted the media because they paid him.
They paid the Sloots too in the NL This money just given to him just enabled him to continue the downward spiral of drinking, drugs and all the rest of it. He was under Anita's roof just before he went to Columbia and then Peru ( and in the casino every night with hs new friend, John Lugwig ) it's a bit late for her to be using the " sick"  excuse for him. The Holloways were under more stress than poor Joran and they did not exhibit any of these types of behaviour or become murderers and blame Joran. All of them have remained what they were in essential character.
..
Here in Canada, we have the mental illness defense, but the only recent case where this has been used successfully was in a previous mental illnesss where the person refused to take medication for a previous diagnosed paranoid schizoid illness. They were convicted of murder ( they asked to be executed, but we do not have such a thing ) and now are serving their time in a locked mental ward.

[Tamikosmom]

Well, there was Terror Jaap; in one of his blogs he also mentioned that Joran was going into treatment and also start some sort of schooling/work project.
He also said that he and a confidant of Joran's tried for a year, to convince Joran to have himself admitted - but they failed. And that now finally he had said "yes" and a week later Stephany was killed.

ooowwwwwweeeee I didn't think about Jaap.......I have a feeling all this might go in his favor .....scary thought!

Sunny and Jo-An

My thought process convinces me that Joran van der Sloot will deemed mentally incompetent and therefore cannot be held accountable for his actions pertaining to the death Stephany ... the death of Natalee as well as ... the exportion charges.  Treatment in the Netherlands will be where it is at.

I sincerely hope I am wrong but ....

Janet

+++++


Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway

Pages 148/149:  Anita tells us (Greta and Beth) all about Joran and what a good boy he is.  How smart he is.  I let her go on and on, as this gives me time to listen, look, access.  And as she continues, she begins to share with us about a difficult time they have had with him recently.  How he exibits oppositional defiance and is disrespectful to his mother.  How they are beginning to lose control of him as he sneaks out at night and comes and goes as he pleases.  After about thirty she concludes by telling us Joran is seeing a psychologist for his defiant behavior.


February 16, 2006

Summons and Complaint
Elizabeth Ann Twitty and Dave Edward Holloway
vs. Joran van der Sloot and Paulus van der Sloot.

14 Joran’s proclivities, at a young age, were known to both of his parents, Paulus Van der Sloot and wife, Anita.

15. As recently as May 2005, Joran was receiving psychological counselling for his problems.

http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/hway/hwayvds21606cmp5.html

[canoworms]

He is cold and calculating in the videos. I do not see anyone appearing to be insane so I wonder at what point, in the casino, in the custody of the cab drivers, chilean police, Peruvian guards, would they consider he was "insane" enough to murder someone unknowingly.

What about Anita's own admission that JVDS was being treated for " anger management",-2005- seeing " someone" and meditating, doing yoga...etc, what about the violent incidents cited ( throwing people through glass, off bridges, pet killing )? His trouble started way before this year.
 
Wasn't it scubajap that admitted he was seeing a psych ( if I remember correctly ). and then what? We saw pictures of him drunk and passed out, liquor everywhere ( his apartment or friends houses ) and he is living apart from his family on their property with no rules and no oversight.

He wasn't being supervised and he was still making trouble. Anita left for Holland and all hell breaks lose. The Sloots knew then he should have been in treatment...TerrorJaap didn't uncover anything, Anita did not hear of problems last week or two weeks prior. He was trashing apartments in Thailand- someone had to pay to get him out of there...Lord knows what else happened there to make him " sell his business".

Temporary insanity is a very convenient way of excusing his behavior that was rotten way before he met TerrorJaap
or DeVries.

IMHO
Selena

[Jo-An]

Does the Netherland have anything like our Hippa Law?  I wonder if indeed arrangements had been made for the monster to go into a treatment program?  OR....is anita lying about this and trying to lay more ground work for an insanity plea? 

Please don't stone me....but at times, while reading this, I almost felt sorry for her.....but it was only momentarily.

BUMP...

What do you mean our HIPPA law?  HIPPA is concerned with privacy.

Exactly....I was wonder if it could be checked that he was supposedly going into some kind of treatment program..or were there laws to protect that information from being released

Yes, there is a Dutch law called Wbp, that protects this kind of private information.
This law covers a wide range; from direct marketing to medical information, to give just a few examples.
For instance; I work in HR and when an employee calls in sick, I am not allowed to ask them what their illness is.

thanks Jo-An so there is no way to verify anita's story.....very convenient!!

Well, there was Terror Jaap; in one of his blogs he also mentioned that Joran was going into treatment and also start some sort of schooling/work project.
He also said that he and a confidant of Joran's tried for a year, to convince Joran to have himself admitted - but they failed. And that now finally he had said "yes" and a week later Stephany was killed.

ooowwwwwweeeee I didn't think about Jaap.......I have a feeling all this might go in his favor .....scary thought!

So (thinking outloud here)..does Peru make exception for someone being insane or temporary insanity? 
Somehow I doubt that they do..other then keep him in prison for the crime and give him meds. 

I am saying this because several states in the US have that same outcome....mine being one of them.  If you are found to be legally insane..it really doesn't matter..you do the crime you do the time.  They will have you see a psych once a month ..give you meds he suggests and that is it..you are still in the cell for life if you kill someone.  And no you do not get therapy sessions for murder.

I think there's so much evidence that doesn't make him look insane or even temporarily insane.
For instance the Oscar winning piece of acting he did outside his hotel room with the empty coffee cups, right after he murdered her.
The fact that he fled to Chile, the fact that he told so many lies.
He was having coffee and cake next to his victim, contemplating what to do next.
I think/hope they see straight through his lies and conduct.

[OneHappyChica]

Wasn't he in a facility before, about two years ago in the NL ?
Then he went to Thailand ? 

Confession
In early 2008, Mr Van Der Sloot again made headlines due to sensational footage broadcast in a television show by crime reporter Peter R de Vries. In a conversation with an associate of Mr De Vries - filmed in a car by a hidden camera - Joran confessed to being involved in Natalee Holloway's disappearance. “She was drunk, Patrick, but I thought, I’ll take her with me and f… her. We did it on the beach, but she suddenly started shaking. And then, nothing.” These were the words of an apparently detached Mr Van Der Sloot.

He said he then put her body in a boat and dumped her overboard out at sea. However, he later denied everything. Although TV sleuth Mr De Vries won an Emmy Award for his 'revelation', an Aruban judge said the statements made by Mr Van Der Sloot did not provide sufficient evidence to have him re-arrested. Put under pressure by a new police investigation, Mr Van Der Sloot agreed to voluntarily check into a psychiatric clinic, but ended up travelling to Thailand.

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/joran-van-der-sloot-a-treat-psychiatrists

[Tamikosmom]

I am checking in on my "tea" breaks while getting ready for a family reunion on hubby's side ... a family reunion that will be held at our home tomorrow.  Out of town family who are staying at my sister-in-law's home in Vancouver will be the guests of honor.  Hubby is busy making lots of sushi rolls (norimaki) and ... I am cleaning.  Other than my famous carrot cake (Safeway) and Tim Horton's coffee ... hubby's sisters have taken care of all the food.  I am praying for good weather.  There will be about 50 in attendance.

Well ... eldest son, DIL and three year old grandson from Vancouver Island will be arriving shortly ... so I better get busy and make up their beds.  Papa has already set up Thomas Train.

Later, Janet
10:30 AM PT

[Blonde]

Wasn't he in a facility before, about two years ago in the NL ?
Then he went to Thailand ?
...
As far as the meida hounding him, etc, he courted the media because they paid him.
They paid the Sloots too in the NL This money just given to him just enabled him to continue the downward spiral of drinking, drugs and all the rest of it. He was under Anita's roof just before he went to Columbia and then Peru ( and in the casino every night with hs new friend, John Lugwig ) it's a bit late for her to be using the " sick"  excuse for him. The Holloways were under more stress than poor Joran and they did not exhibit any of these types of behaviour or become murderers and blame Joran. All of them have remained what they were in essential character.
..
Here in Canada, we have the mental illness defense, but the only recent case where this has been used successfully was in a previous mental illnesss where the person refused to take medication for a previous diagnosed paranoid schizoid illness. They were convicted of murder ( they asked to be executed, but we do not have such a thing ) and now are serving their time in a locked mental ward.

 YES REMEMBER     Jonathan555  or something loke that would post pictures

[canoworms]

Kat-
Wasn't he in a facility before, about two years ago in the NL ?
Then he went to Thailand ?
...
As far as the meida hounding him, etc, he courted the media because they paid him.
They paid the Sloots too in the NL This money just given to him just enabled him to continue the downward spiral of drinking, drugs and all the rest of it. He was under Anita's roof just before he went to Columbia and then Peru ( and in the casino every night with hs new friend, John Lugwig ) it's a bit late for her to be using the " sick"  excuse for him. The Holloways were under more stress than poor Joran and they did not exhibit any of these types of behaviour or become murderers and blame Joran. All of them have remained what they were in essential character.
..

YESYESYES.
I offer you a cookie.
Selena

[Magnolia]

Anita says Joran told her he was being followed and he was robbed and two men showed him pictures of Natalee.

I don't believe this happened, but was he being haunted by Natalee's death? He knew the stress of Natalee's murder lead to his father's death. Was he paranoid something was going to happen to him next?

I think he was paranoid but only because he made a lot of enemies.  No one was helping Joran.  He needed money and he was emailing at least two people the night before Stephany was killed asking for money for tickets home.

If Joran was doing a lot of cocaine or some other form of speed, that would cause his paranoria.  I think
it has been reported that he was doing both.

[canoworms]

Muffy Bee
"I think Joran kicked and stomped on both Natalee and Stephany.   And I think Joran may very well have struck Stephany in the head/face with his elbow and that may have been what caused damage to her eye/eyes.  Using the elbow for an attack is bone on bone. "

and it's a difficult maneuver when someone has their back to you while reading your email...
He lies.
S

[wreck]

Kat-
Wasn't he in a facility before, about two years ago in the NL ?
Then he went to Thailand ?
...
As far as the meida hounding him, etc, he courted the media because they paid him.
They paid the Sloots too in the NL This money just given to him just enabled him to continue the downward spiral of drinking, drugs and all the rest of it. He was under Anita's roof just before he went to Columbia and then Peru ( and in the casino every night with hs new friend, John Lugwig ) it's a bit late for her to be using the " sick"  excuse for him. The Holloways were under more stress than poor Joran and they did not exhibit any of these types of behaviour or become murderers and blame Joran. All of them have remained what they were in essential character.
..

YESYESYES.
I offer you a cookie.
Selena

Den Dolder?? (sp?)

[canoworms]

wreck
Altrecht, Mental Health Institute, Division OFP, Den Dolder, BN, the Netherlands
this one?

[canoworms]

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a916676910~db=all~jumptype=rss

note the references to the disorders.

[texasmom]

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/6996293/__Populariteit_naam_Joran_neem_flink_af__.html?sn=binnenland,buitenland

Google translation:

Sat June 19, 2010, 18:55

Name Popularity Joran pack plenty off

AMSTERDAM -  Joran's name is no longer popular in the Netherlands. The website of the Dutch Bank Distinguished Saturday confirmed a report on this in the NRC Handelsblad.


The name, in 1973 for the first time a Dutch child was given, reached its peak in 2006 when 124 boys were named. From that year took off in popularity. While in 2007 94 babies were given the name, there were only 8 in 2009.

The famous Dutch Joran is Joran van der Sloot. The now 22-year-old man suspected of the murder in 2010 on the 21-year-old Stephany Flores in Peru. In 2005 he was suspected of involvement in the disappearance of American Natalee Holloway in Aruba. He is now in the Peruvian Miguel Castro Castro prison in Lima determined.

[Blonde]

wreck
Altrecht, Mental Health Institute, Division OFP, Den Dolder, BN, the Netherlands
this one?

  Yes that one

[Jo-An]

Kat-
Wasn't he in a facility before, about two years ago in the NL ?
Then he went to Thailand ?
...
As far as the meida hounding him, etc, he courted the media because they paid him.
They paid the Sloots too in the NL This money just given to him just enabled him to continue the downward spiral of drinking, drugs and all the rest of it. He was under Anita's roof just before he went to Columbia and then Peru ( and in the casino every night with hs new friend, John Lugwig ) it's a bit late for her to be using the " sick"  excuse for him. The Holloways were under more stress than poor Joran and they did not exhibit any of these types of behaviour or become murderers and blame Joran. All of them have remained what they were in essential character.
..

YESYESYES.
I offer you a cookie.
Selena

Den Dolder?? (sp?)

Yes, Den Dolder has several psych hospitals.
Joran got into day care at the Altrecht clinic.

[canoworms]

Admittedly he could have been seen for other reasons...Narcissism has been called out SO many times by sleuths.
S

[Magnolia]

Kat-
Wasn't he in a facility before, about two years ago in the NL ?
Then he went to Thailand ?
...
As far as the meida hounding him, etc, he courted the media because they paid him.
They paid the Sloots too in the NL This money just given to him just enabled him to continue the downward spiral of drinking, drugs and all the rest of it. He was under Anita's roof just before he went to Columbia and then Peru ( and in the casino every night with hs new friend, John Lugwig ) it's a bit late for her to be using the " sick"  excuse for him. The Holloways were under more stress than poor Joran and they did not exhibit any of these types of behaviour or become murderers and blame Joran. All of them have remained what they were in essential character.
..

YESYESYES.
I offer you a cookie.
Selena

Den Dolder?? (sp?)

And Johan would post pictures of the facility, but Joran was never a patient there.  He fled to Thailand instead.