Natalee Case Discussion #840 6/17/10 - 6/22/10

[canoworms]

Thanks Magnolia:)

[San]

Anita says Joran told her he was being followed and he was robbed and two men showed him pictures of Natalee.

I don't believe this happened, but was he being haunted by Natalee's death? He knew the stress of Natalee's murder lead to his father's death. Was he paranoid something was going to happen to him next?

I think he was paranoid but only because he made a lot of enemies.  No one was helping Joran.  He needed money and he was emailing at least two people the night before Stephany was killed asking for money for tickets home.

If Joran was doing a lot of cocaine or some other form of speed, that would cause his paranoria.  I think
it has been reported that he was doing both.

Yes it would Magnolia.

[wreck]

Yes, it was Johan who kept telling us he was in Den Dolder, yet all indications were that he was in Thailand.

[canoworms]

Accepting $25,000 in blood money and getting a tip off that you need to scoot town before they get you would probably produce a bit of anxiety and paranoia, as well.
S

[Kat_Gram]

He was out of money.
He was on the run. Looks like everything was closing in on him.
Stephany had money when she went into his room.
He had her money , id cards etc when he left the room and fled.
Where does crazy come into play ? Peru isn't going to go for the crazy defense even if they had such a thing. He is crazy and cunning like a fox. There is no way he is going to serve his time in the NL in an institution. His latest new bud, John Ludwig didn't say Joran was crazy, just that he gambled too much. Won big and then lost it all. Not a huge defense for anything, self inflicted stress. Toss in his drinking for years and years and you just have an unadjusted person who wants his own way and if he can't get it, takes it. Even if brutal force is involved. He must have been terrorizing Anita and Sebastian in that house for months.
Probably every prisoner in Canada, the US and Peru has had a tougher life than Joran.
Stephany didn't deserve to be beaten to death by him. He used his bare hands. Anyone who feels sorry for him is a different species than me. 
 

[littletxlady]

I still haven't caught up reading but I haven't seen this yet, sorry if it is a repost.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2010/06/joran-van-der-sloot-dead-man-says-ex-con-prison-expert

[canoworms]

He was out of money.
He was on the run. Looks like everything was closing in on him.
Stephany had money when she went into his room.
He had her money , id cards etc when he left the room and fled.
Where does crazy come into play ? Peru isn't going to go for the crazy defense even if they had such a thing. He is crazy and cunning like a fox. There is no way he is going to serve his time in the NL in an institution. His latest new bud, John Ludwig didn't say Joran was crazy, just that he gambled too much. Won big and then lost it all. Not a huge defense for anything, self inflicted stress. Toss in his drinking for years and years and you just have an unadjusted person who wants his own way and if he can't get it, takes it. Even if brutal force is involved. He must have been terrorizing Anita and Sebastian in that house for months.
Probably every prisoner in Canada, the US and Peru has had a tougher life than Joran.
Stephany didn't deserve to be beaten to death by him. He used his bare hands. Anyone who feels sorry for him is a different species than me. 
 

I love you
Selena

[msmarple]

Well, shoot, we ALL know that people who murder have a screw loose – it’s just not “normal” behavior. The details of why and how determine the appropriate form of justice.

Joran shows no remorse in either case, and attempted an elaborate alibi (Stephany) and participated in an elaborate cover-up (Natalee). He pointed fingers to others (thieves in Peru, security guards and Deepak in Aruba). He additionally fled the country after Stephany; that was not necessary in Aruba, which willingly enveloped him in loving arms for the sake of tourism.

In any event, in this country, the insanity defense rarely works, and I expect Peru has even less patience with it. “Heat of the moment” is more successful here, probably in Peru, but Joran blew that one when he attempted the alibi, and fled the country. If he has remorse, it is that he got caught.

Anita and The Netherlands (along with much of the world) may deplore Peru’s prisons, but they are what they are – before Joran killed Stephany. So far his accomodations are far better than most.

[Nut44x4]

June 19th, 2010 | Posted by JPerez
Matt Holloway Speaks out about Sister Natalee Holloway and Joran Van Der Sloot for the First Time

It has been five years since 18 year old Natalee Holloway went missing while she was on a graduation trip with fellow classmates to Aruba. The main suspect in her disappearance and expected murder has always been Dutch native Joran Van Der Sloot. Now with Joran Van Der Sloot behind bars after five year for a separate murder, Natalee’s family feels he is finally getting want he deserves. Matt Holloway, the younger brother of Natalee speaks out in his first interview.

In his interview Matt Holloway talks about how he does not believe that Joran Van Der Sloot will provide authorities any valuable or truthful evidence regarding the disappearance of his sister. When asked what he does believe, Matt states that the only truth he believes Van Der Sloot has spoken during the past five years is when Joran was caught on camera in an undercover sting talking about how Natalee suffered a seizure and that he [Van Der Sloot] not knowing what to do dump Natalee’s body into the ocean. “I feel like that was the truth,” Matt says. “It’s hard to talk about it, but I think he put her in the ocean. That would make the most sense to me.

Matt goes on to talk about how Joran formerly claimed that he either dumped Natalee into a swamp or buried her body under a house that was being built at the time. Matt Holloway states that he knew neither lie was true. Authorities verified that Natalee was not found at either site.

Toward the end of the interview Matt Holloways talks about how his family has come to terms with the fact that Natalee is gone and that she will never be coming back. Matt also talks about how sorry he is for the family of 21 year old Stephany Flores Ramirez, who was murdered on June 2nd of this year. Joran Van Der Sloot has been formally charged with the murder of Ramirez and is currently in jail awaiting trial in Peru.

Van Der Sloot is currently trying to offer authorities more information in disappearance of Natalee Holloway in hopes of a less severe sentence, for his involvement in the murder of Stephany Flores Ramirez. Matt comments, “He’s just trying to get a lighter sentence; Right now he just knows he’s pretty much screwed on murder.”

Regarding the whole situation Matt says that he is only wish was that the authorities had acted sooner but that he is glad Joran Van Der Sloot will be in jail for the remainder of his life.

Natalee Holloway went missing back in May of 2005; there has still been no body found and no closure for her family. Natalee’s parents Beth Holloway and David Holloway are still actively involved in the search of their daughter’s body and will continue to be until closure is found.
http://www.thenewsgals.com/matt-holloway-speaks-out-about-sister-natalee-holloway-and-joran-van-der-sloot-for-the-first-time/912/

[Ono]

If indeed Anita does not visit him in Peru, then maybe it will dawn on him he is truly alone and he'll get angry enough to spill all of the beans regarding Natalee...trouble is, if he doesn't provide some sort of provable info-no one will believe him.   

[canoworms]

Thank you littlelady, very astute commentary

[canoworms]

Well, shoot, we ALL know that people who murder have a screw loose – it’s just not “normal” behavior. The details of why and how determine the appropriate form of justice.

Joran shows no remorse in either case, and attempted an elaborate alibi (Stephany) and participated in an elaborate cover-up (Natalee). He pointed fingers to others (thieves in Peru, security guards and Deepak in Aruba). He additionally fled the country after Stephany; that was not necessary in Aruba, which willingly enveloped him in loving arms for the sake of tourism.

In any event, in this country, the insanity defense rarely works, and I expect Peru has even less patience with it. “Heat of the moment” is more successful here, probably in Peru, but Joran blew that one when he attempted the alibi, and fled the country. If he has remorse, it is that he got caught.

Anita and The Netherlands (along with much of the world) may deplore Peru’s prisons, but they are what they are – before Joran killed Stephany. So far his accomodations are far better than most.

Crazy like a fox!

[San]

He was out of money.
He was on the run. Looks like everything was closing in on him.
Stephany had money when she went into his room.
He had her money , id cards etc when he left the room and fled.
Where does crazy come into play ? Peru isn't going to go for the crazy defense even if they had such a thing. He is crazy and cunning like a fox. There is no way he is going to serve his time in the NL in an institution. His latest new bud, John Ludwig didn't say Joran was crazy, just that he gambled too much. Won big and then lost it all. Not a huge defense for anything, self inflicted stress. Toss in his drinking for years and years and you just have an unadjusted person who wants his own way and if he can't get it, takes it. Even if brutal force is involved. He must have been terrorizing Anita and Sebastian in that house for months.
Probably every prisoner in Canada, the US and Peru has had a tougher life than Joran.
Stephany didn't deserve to be beaten to death by him. He used his bare hands. Anyone who feels sorry for him is a different species than me. 
 

I agree with everything you said.

[littletxlady]

Thank you littlelady, very astute commentary

you betcha.  I just hope the Holloways get answers and Natalee back before anything happens to him.
Karma's a bitch ain't it Joran?

[msmarple]

I am not familiar with the laws in The NL/Aruba re. commitment. It seems, however, that parents might be able to commit a minor child, which Joran was at the time - and as Jan VDS suggested.

HOWEVER – I think Paulus and Anita may have been boxed in. Committing him could be perceived as an admission of guilt in Natalee’s case. Catch-22.

[Magnolia]

I am not familiar with the laws in The NL/Aruba re. commitment. It seems, however, that parents might be able to commit a minor child, which Joran was at the time - and as Jan VDS suggested.

HOWEVER – I think Paulus and Anita may have been boxed in. Committing him could be perceived as an admission of guilt in Natalee’s case. Catch-22.

I think Paulus and Anita thought it would not be good on his resume'.

[San]

Searching around for the the Van der Straaten comment regarding Joran going to a mental institution.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1097.0

In Joran's translation of his book:

Page 156, June 13 informal talk with Jan van der Straaten.
Jan van der Straaten, head commissar of the police, talked to me after
lunch around 1 pm, informally at the police station in Oranjestad. He
said: Joran, I have known your father for years. I only want to help
you. I am going to see to it that you can go to Holland. That you will not
have to go to jail, but that you will be committed in a mental
institution. You only will have to tell the truth.

[Kat_Gram]

Thank you canofworms, Selena and San.
I don't think that Peru is going to fall for any of this. There are no extradiiton treaties with the NL anyway. Even if they start working on one this minute, it won't happen in Joran's lifetime.
..
I want him to be treated well in Castro Castro. I want him to live to a ripe old age in custody. He has one poker chip left and that is where is Natalee. And he might use it after he is sentenced and all is lost. But it would have to take Aruba, Peru, NL and the USA and the FBI to come to some agreement. I don't see this happening until he is well into his sentence and begins to plot for better conditions elsewhere.
And, who knows, he is a survivor and he might end up running one of the " pirate ships " in the really bad prison. Anita and the rest of his supporters would have to bring him money.
ps
Why doesn't Charlie Rat be his lawyer, he could get a cerificate to practise in Peru. he could be the one who makes the trip and gives him cash.

[wreck]

I am not familiar with the laws in The NL/Aruba re. commitment. It seems, however, that parents might be able to commit a minor child, which Joran was at the time - and as Jan VDS suggested.

HOWEVER – I think Paulus and Anita may have been boxed in. Committing him could be perceived as an admission of guilt in Natalee’s case. Catch-22.

He was a minor aged 17 with a screw loose. He could have been treated in a mental health clinic and be out in 6 months. They made a POOR decision. Now, 5 years later -- he will be DEAD within a year.

[Bearlyhere]

Just watched 20/20 with Melody.

Melody - the love of Joran's life.
Melody shares birthday with Natalee -> Natalee ends up dead
Melody looks somewhat like Stephany -> Stephany ends up dead

Coincidence?
I think not.
Sounds to me like he never really got over Melody and subconsciously still "loved" her.

Or am I being paranoid?

Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean someone is not out to get you.

  :-p