Natalee Case Discussion #840 6/17/10 - 6/22/10

[MisGivings]

I got him a tie this year!

[Puzzler]

I don't think Joran is going to do too well with the Judge on Monday. 

I, too, don't think Joran is going to do too well with the Judge on Monday.

[nychic]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed but I have been wondering if Stephany's neck was broken after she was dead ?
Here is why: In Joran's sick mind he may have tried to fold her dead body into that duffel bag breaking her neck in the process due to frustration
This would also explain why her clothes were removed
Stephany was not as thin as Natalee so he may have just given up on the suitcase idea and decided to run

Has it ever been determined just how much cash he stole from her ?
Western Union transactions should be checked - I think that he called Anita - to wire her some cash...Just In Case (it would be so great if that were true and exposed)

Also I think when they say he had not paid for his room they were referring to the 2-3 days he was on the run - If you notice the clerk holds the room key as Joran had to pick it up when he walked in with Stephany - No pay - No Key

[Tamikosmom]

Corruption in Paradise - Dave Holloway

Page 1: I watched as she received her high school diploma, and I took pictures of her at her graduation ceremony.  I planned to be there when she graduated from college and then medical school.  My pride would have enveloped us both.  I had long imagined the day when I would see my Natalee in her beautiful white wedding grown.  We would meet in the back of the church for her last moment as "daddy's little girl" and, as she encircled my arm with hers, I would lean down and whisper the words that all fathers must say to their daughters on that very special day, "I love you."  I would walk her down the aisle and proudly offer her hand to her fiance, and I would return to my seat knowing that my girl had accomplished all that a father could desire.  At that moment, it would be clear that the first tier of her life with me had come to an end and that the man she would now look to for approval and love would be her husband.  But she would always be my little Natalee ... always.

[MisGivings]

Txxxx Txx Bxxx  I really appreciate your loyalty to your friendship wit joran . You are the defintion of friendship . And i also support joran . Dont know him but i dont think he is the bad person ppl try to make him look like .
4 hours ago

John Ludwick
thanks. i try my best. even if it costs me my reputation, i had to let people know the truth. as long as he is in prison and gets word that I did this for him i know he is thankful.3 hours ago
http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100000463930273

_____________________________

can this putz get any more pathetic.........

He would have been more thankful if you sent him the money you loser.

The jerk knows Joran less than 90 days, and thinks he knows who he really is? Can you say, delusional?
Geesh, give me a friggin' break.

[Lifesong]

Txxxx Txx Bxxx  I really appreciate your loyalty to your friendship wit joran . You are the defintion of friendship . And i also support joran . Dont know him but i dont think he is the bad person ppl try to make him look like .
4 hours ago

John Ludwick
thanks. i try my best. even if it costs me my reputation, i had to let people know the truth. as long as he is in prison and gets word that I did this for him i know he is thankful.3 hours ago
http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100000463930273

_____________________________

can this putz get any more pathetic.........

He would have been more thankful if you sent him the money you loser.

The jerk knows Joran less than 90 days, and thinks he knows who he really is? Can you say, delusional?
Geesh, give me a friggin' break.

If feel sorry for this kid.  He'll put his reputation on the line just to have Joran's gratitude?  What a loser!  This guy needs serious dry-out time and a counselor stat.  Grow up, guy.  Joran don't give a sh*t what you're doing - ask the Kalpie, lol.

I think they were mainly just drug buddies and gambling buddies, and possibly gay lovers.  I think it meant much, much more to Ludwick than it did the murderer.  Anyway, I do wish one of these talk show goobers would ask him if Joran ever shook him down for money and how much.  Then ask him what all drugs they did together.  That oughta get him off the tv screen.

JMO

[klaasend]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed but I have been wondering if Stephany's neck was broken after she was dead ?
Here is why: In Joran's sick mind he may have tried to fold her dead body into that duffel bag breaking her neck in the process due to frustration
This would also explain why her clothes were removed
Stephany was not as thin as Natalee so he may have just given up on the suitcase idea and decided to run

Has it ever been determined just how much cash he stole from her ?
Western Union transactions should be checked - I think that he called Anita - to wire her some cash...Just In Case (it would be so great if that were true and exposed)

Also I think when they say he had not paid for his room they were referring to the 2-3 days he was on the run - If you notice the clerk holds the room key as Joran had to pick it up when he walked in with Stephany - No pay - No Key

I'm waiting to hear all the evidence and forensics.  Very possible he broke her neck in an attempt to hide her body somehow. 

[Sleuth]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed but I have been wondering if Stephany's neck was broken after she was dead ?
Here is why: In Joran's sick mind he may have tried to fold her dead body into that duffel bag breaking her neck in the process due to frustration
This would also explain why her clothes were removed
Stephany was not as thin as Natalee so he may have just given up on the suitcase idea and decided to run

Has it ever been determined just how much cash he stole from her ?
Western Union transactions should be checked - I think that he called Anita - to wire her some cash...Just In Case (it would be so great if that were true and exposed)

Also I think when they say he had not paid for his room they were referring to the 2-3 days he was on the run - If you notice the clerk holds the room key as Joran had to pick it up when he walked in with Stephany - No pay - No Key

With him, this is entirely plausible.

[msmarple]

I don't think Joran is going to do too well with the Judge on Monday. 

I, too, don't think Joran is going to do too well with the Judge on Monday.

If he pulls the another day, another version, routine, the judge will probably add five years on general principal.

One thing about it, I don't think these people will be lobbing softballs, and failing to ask follow-up questions.

Plus by now, they've got a firm idea of everything traceable - his and her gambling wins/losses, trips in and out of Hotel Tac and where he went most of those times, whatever his cell phone yields, indeed Western Union as someone just mentioned, his banking records, etc.

I haven't seen anything yet about whether they've gotten into his computer. I understood that Peru was waiting for a judge to be assigned to the case, as the laptop would have required some sort of authorization. But a judge has been appointed, last Monday (? I think? 6/14 ?) so maybe there's been time for at least some preliminary work on it.

Forgive me for even asking about this, but I cannot imagine a "suitcase" that would hold an adult.

Possibly "suitcase" is something that isn't translating well? I could see something like a military-type duffle bag, or possibly (remotely) a suit hanger bag - but a suitcase?

[msmarple]

nychic - I think we've seen that Joran checked into the hotel on 5/14 and paid 14 days in advance, which pays him through the night of 5/27. If that information is correct, he was two nights overdue when he walked out on the morning of 5/30.

He mentioned concern about his hotel bill to "X" (probably Jaap). I think this was part of his BS, as he was not that overdue when he left (but I don't recall the dates of that email exchange).

[Jonathan45]

@ msmarple, Canoworms, Can, Twinkiesmom


The 'bike' scenario was on Scrux. [not anymore]

In this scenario Joran used Valentijns mountainbike to bring the crimescene [Jorans apartment] from the VDSresidence to the beach by riding to the hotels and calling Deepak between 2.26am to 2.34am the night Natalee vanished.
 During that call [ Deepak stated that Joran was heavily breathing and that the connection was bad] Valentijn logged in on the family computer next to Dead Daddy P's alibi, his bedroom.

[klaasend]

Thanks J45 - I looked for it.  You know, I might have copied it over here to SM.  I'll look.

[klaasend]

@ msmarple, Canoworms, Can, Twinkiesmom


The 'bike' scenario was on Scrux. [not anymore]

In this scenario Joran used Valentijns mountainbike to bring the crimescene [Jorans apartment] from the VDSresidence to the beach by riding to the hotels and calling Deepak between 2.26am to 2.34am the night Natalee vanished.
 During that call [ Deepak stated that Joran was heavily breathing and that the connection was bad] Valentijn logged in on the family computer next to Dead Daddy P's alibi, his bedroom.

Found it!

Posted at Scrux (this is Jonathan45's opinion):

Jonathan45

Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 62

 Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:29 pm    Post subject:   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
It was Joran's intention to have sex with that girl.
In his book he also wrote that Natalee wanted to have sex with him. Her bodylanguage gave all the signals.
When he is waiting for Deepak [and surprisingly to Joran also for Satish] to pick him up to go to C&C's Joran called Flor, one of his two girlfriends [Ealaine] to ask her if she was willing to join him to C&C's that night. Flor's dad did not allow her to go Joran wrote.
Was he feeling guilty already about the coming sexdate, knowing that the 16 year Flor would get no permission to join him ?
Why did Joran at 3.11am sent Flor a sweet message after he started already the fictional beachstory by framing the Kalpoes starting by calling Deepak at 2.26am ?
Why did he gave Flor as a data fact a spot on his own created timeline ?
Was he at that moment ready with the disposal ?
Did he felt a relief after finishing that crucial 'no body no case' operation between 2.15am and 3.10am and does Joran therefore compares himself with a professional killer, who could kill and let vanish a body within an hour ? Joran's timeline proves it's his escaperoute.
Joran managed to bring the crimescene from the VDSresidence to the beach by fictionalizing an open end [I left her on the beach].
The body of Natalee was also by mindf***ing left within his beachfiction.
In reality the body was in his apartment and it was Joran who succeeded in his mission by knowing every single spot within 1000 meters from his home. Joran is a local boy.
To walk with a body could be done easily within an hour after Natalee died.
To frame the Kalpoes by using [or even walking] his brothers bike is also easy within the timeline.
Was Joran 5 minutes before he sent Flor a sweet sms message[3.11am at home and did Valentijn woke up ?
Was Paulus really asleep or not at home till 4.00am when a tip [june 2005] stated that he/she saw Paulus car returned to the VDSresidence ?
The driver was not recognized because of the darkness.
Is Valentijn a keywitness who was payed by his brother Joran [ he won a lot of money in that weekend] to seal his lips ?
Is it the pathological double binds between these two boys which made it for Joran possible to rule as the spider in the pathological double binds familyweb ?
When Natalee disappeared Anita, his mother was in Holland.
In his book Joran stated that he was for his parents out of control.

He had a secret bankaccount with 5000 US dollars pokerprice money. [page 60], he stole money from his parents.
Joran had lot of cash in his apartment. On monday May 30 he and Marco drove to the VDShome to get some more money to play in the casino.
Back in the casino he started with 500 US dollars on number 9 and 1 dollar at double zero. He wins 180 dollars.
Later, during the pokerplaying, Deepak called him to ask where Joran was.
The first direct contact after more than 21 hours between Deepak and Joran after the 2.26am call, the beginning of the beachfiction.
Joran stated in his book [page 99] about Deepak's call:
Around 00.30am [tuesday, May 31] Deepak called me and asked 'where are you ?". In the Radisson Joran replied. "I'm coming" Deepak said and hung up. Joran: " I found that a bit strange, but did not thought about it. I had to concentrate on the game"
Some hours later Beth Twitty arrived at the gate of the VDSresidence
to talk to the guy who admitted he was the last and only one who saw Natalee.


Joran's book is a confession 
 

[carpe noctem]

'Sweet boy'
She added that her son is not a monster. "He was a sweet boy who loved animals and his grandmother. Funny, open. He has gradually lost its way. It was insidious."

She said he blamed himself for his father's unexpected death  earlier this year.

"Two days Joran cried. He even hung over the coffin, sobbing.

"It's my fault, Dad," he said. "I have caused your heart attack."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37802494/ns/world_news-americas/

[carpe noctem]

I think he loved his grandmother more than he loved animals. She is still alive, right?

[msmarple]

J45 - Thank you, that is very interesting. (But I still think that Natalee's body is absolutely not recoverable.)

One thing you mention that I recall something about, that is important:

"Was Paulus really asleep or not at home till 4.00am when a tip [june 2005] stated that he/she saw Paulus car returned to the VDSresidence ?
The driver was not recognized because of the darkness."

Now, when the "Alabama Posse" was at the VDS home, as Beth put it, "10+ witness" heard Papa VDS say that he had picked Joran up at McDonald's at 4:00 a.m.

One person from Aruba - one of the drivers helping that night, I *think* the one named "Eldridge" - corroborated that 4:00 a.m. time in his statement to the police. One person who would have no language/translation problem; one person who was not part of the "posse."

His statement was cited in the letter that was written by an attorney, maybe prosecutor, that enabled Aruba to withdraw a previous $$ lawsuit settlement to Paulus. We have that document; I'm just not very good at remembering these names from so long ago.

(He was a very brave young man, IMO, and I hope he's still alive. He just didn't know any better than to tell the truth.)

[msmarple]

Guess I should add that Papa VDS later changed the time that he picked up Joran from MacDonald's to 11:00 pm. In his statement to the polis.

[Jonathan45]

@klaasend

Thank you very much, Klaasend.
I myself have no back up.

[msmarple]

At el comecerio, they ran the AP article that's just a "re-hash" and the commentors are annoyed ("refrito" I think they're calling it).

And some are getting tired of the story. Time for Joran to pull out one of his whack-a-doodles.

[msmarple]

I just realized that I don't know how to spell McDonald's.