Watching NG's show tonight.
They are saying Teri hired the landscaper back in Nov without Kaine's knowledge. Then Zack says he responded to an ad she put out in April.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1007/05/ng.01.htmlNANCY GRACE
Missing 7-Year-Old`s Stepmom Reportedly in Murder-for-Hire Plot
Aired July 5, 2010 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: We begin tonight with breaking news out of Portland, Oregon, in the disappearance of a 7-year-old little boy vanishing from his own elementary school. The stepmother says she walked the little boy to his classroom after a science fair, but he`s never seen again. Again, reportedly, police insist the stepmother take a second polygraph. Kyron`s father files for divorce. He takes out an emergency restraining order and then moves out of the home with a 19-month-old baby girl.
Major developments tonight. Listen to this! Just when you think it can`t get worse, reports are emerging the stepmother -- yes, the stepmother -- tried to have Kyron`s father killed. Sources are telling CNN affiliates Terri Horman offered her landscaper a large amount of money to murder her husband. And it`s all just months before 7-year-old Kyron goes missing. The alleged murder-for-hire plot revealing why Kyron`s father abruptly moved out of the family home, now in hiding with their baby girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 7-year-old Portland boy Kyron Horman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We would like all of you, everyone to continue to get his face out there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A source tells CNN stepmom Terri Horman allegedly tried to hire a hit man to kill her husband.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s the last one to see her missing 7-year-old stepson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Source claims a landscaper hired by stepmom Terri Horman told police Terri Horman offered him a large sum of money to carry out the murder-for-hire plot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bad situation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The source says police even recorded a conversation between the landscaper, Terri Horman and an undercover cop on June 26th.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We pray each day for Kyron.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That very same day, Kyron`s father was told of the alleged murder-for-hire scheme, causing him to move out of the house and take the couple`s 19-month-old infant with him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We implore Terri Horman to fully cooperate with investigators to bring Kyron home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: Good evening. I`m Jean Casarez of the legal network "In Session" on the trueTV network, in for Nancy Grace. I`m back from Lima, Peru. Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
Breaking news in the disappearance of a 7-year-old little boy vanishing from his own elementary school. Reports are emerging the stepmother in the last several months tried to have Kyron`s father killed in a murder-for-hire plot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning developments today in the case of missing 7-year-old Kyron Horman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seems to get stranger by the minute here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: CNN affiliate reports a source claims Kyron`s stepmom, Terri Horman, tried to hire a hit man to kill her husband.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... the scrutiny around her intensifying by the minute.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A landscaper hired by Terri Horman allegedly told authorities that Horman approached him six to seven months ago and offered him a large amount of money to set up the hit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A source tells KGW, our affiliate in Portland, that his stepmom, Terri Horman, allegedly lied to prosecutors.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kyron is still alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: KGW also reports stepmom was not where she said she was the day he vanished and reports the two polygraphs she took were inconclusive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not only that, but a sources says police allegedly recorded a conversation between stepmom Terri Horman, the landscaper and an undercover cop that happened just last week.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are working with investigators daily to bring Kyron home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Terri Horman has not been arrested or charged for this alleged incident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone`s a person of interest. We have not named any suspects in this case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: And straight out to Natisha Lance, NANCY GRACE producer, joining us live from Portland, Oregon. She is there at the elementary school of little Kyron Horman. What is the latest? What are you hearing there in Portland?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, huge revelations, just as you said, Jean. According to CNN affiliates, we are now finding out that Terri Horman, according to sources who spoke to our affiliates, hired a landscaper, and in the process of this landscaper doing work for the Horman home, she also approached this landscaper offering him a large sum of money to kill her husband, Kaine Horman.
Now, according to sources, what Terri Horman told this landscaper is that she was in an unhappy marriage. She said that she had suspicions that her husband, Kaine Horman, was having an affair with a co-worker at Ntel (ph). Now, Jean, this is significant because just last Monday, Kaine Horman not only filed for divorce, but he also filed a restraining order against Terri Horman. Now, what we do know, according to Oregon law is that in order for the restraining order to have gone through, he needed to have shown evidence of immediate danger against him. Now, what sources are telling our affiliates is that that immediate danger was this murder-to- hire plot with the landscaper.
CASAREZ: OK, Natisha. Yes, you`re right. So much is coming together here. Facts are making sense now. Do we know how much money that she allegedly offered this landscaper to murder her husband?
LANCE: We don`t know how much money, Jean. But what we are finding out, according to the sources who spoke to our affiliate, is that investigators were able to find this landscaper because throughout their investigation, they`re talking to people who had contact with the Hormans prior to Kyron`s disappearance and after. Well, in that process, that`s when they made contact with this landscaper and that is when he revealed that about seven months ago is when Terri Horman approached him with this plot.
CASAREZ: All right, to Matt Zarrell, NANCY GRACE producer. Let`s talk about this landscaper for a minute. First of all -- I`ve got a lot of questions, but first of all, did he go authorities or did authorities find him?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, authorities found him because the major crimes unit was investigating and looking at anyone in relation to the family, anyone that had any connection to the family. His name came up. He was hired by Terri Horman allegedly last November, without Kaine Horman`s knowledge, apparently.
CASAREZ: OK. Without his knowledge. So she hired this landscaper and her husband didn`t know about it?
ZARRELL: Yes. And police found that very interesting. And that`s part of the reason why they wanted to go talk to him. And when they talk to him, that`s allegedly when they learned of this murder-for-hire plot.
CASAREZ: OK. Now, the 26th of June was a week ago Saturday. Very important day. I want you to take us through, Matt, step by step by step what happened.
ZARRELL: OK. Now, we know from sources telling multiple CNN affiliates that what happened was is that police were able to tape an alleged conversation between the landscaper, stepmom Terri Horman and an undercover cop. That was also that Saturday, June 6.
We also know that that was the same day that, allegedly, Kaine Horman was made aware of this murder plot by cops. That is also the same day he moves out with 19-month-old Kiara. That night, there are two 911 calls from the Horman home to police. We know now that Kaine Horman was not in the home during those calls.
CASAREZ: All right, Natisha Lance, live in Portland, Oregon. This is amazing information, Natisha. You have just told us that our CNN affiliates are reporting that the stepmother in all of this allegedly tried to hire the landscaper to kill her husband? Now, a week ago, the 26th, Matt just said, the landscaper was wired up, consented to be -- to do that. Tell us more about that.
LANCE: Well, Jean, just as Matt said, the landscaper was wired up to go through this conversation with Terri Horman. Apparently, she did not take the bait. She didn`t give any information that would lead police in any sort of direction.
And it`s also important to point out here, Jean, she`s still not being called a suspect. She`s still not being called a person of interest. But it does play very interestingly into the disappearance of Kyron Horman because now what sources are telling affiliates is that this leads to a motive for her possibly doing something with Kyron.
CASAREZ: And let`s remember the focus is still to find little Kyron Horman, the 7-year-old that was at his science class the last time he was seen, that had very thick glasses -- which just really gets me.
Let`s go the lawyers, Anne Bremner, defense lawyer out of Seattle, Washington. I know you do a lot of work in Portland, Oregon. I`ve got a lot of questions for you. And Doug Burns, defense attorney extraordinaire out of the New York jurisdiction.
First of all, Anne Bremner, when we look at that emergency restraining order, so many questions last week. Why did he get it? Why did police allegedly tell him, Move out of the house now? Well, one of the conditions was that she couldn`t see her children and that the stepmother, Terri Horman, could not see and could not be around firearms.
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Right.
CASAREZ: That`s a key right there, Anne.
BREMNER: Yes, it is a key. Sometimes, you can see these, you know, generally in an order. But the fact that this is involving children, firearms, et cetera, is, you know, something else went down besides this whole murder-for-hire information that led to this sweeping order of restraint. She can challenge it, of course, but right now, it stands as it`s stated.
CASAREZ: To Doug Burns, defense attorney. When they wired up the landscaper on the 26th, a week ago Saturday, they didn`t only want to find out about an alleged murder-for-hire plot. They wanted to find out about Kyron Horman -- Horman, the little boy.
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, no question about it. But it does behoove me to point out that a lot of times in murder-for-hire cases -- and I`ve actually been in one as a prosecutor and one as a defense attorney, so I have both perspectives -- somebody basically runs their mouth -- I`m not excusing it -- in anger, I want to kill him. Trust me when I tell you, Jean, they wired up the person and they did not get a meaningful conversation from her. So that means the case is very weak. And remember, she wasn`t arrested on that.
However, they should leverage her with the threat of that to try to figure out what happened now.
CASAREZ: And however -- I got the law, and the law says that it`s merely the intent of Terri Horman.
BURNS: Right.
CASAREZ: It`s merely her intent of what she really wanted. And if you couple that with now a little boy is missing and she was the last person to see him, doesn`t that give more strength to the murder-for-hire plot?
BURNS: Well, yes, no, I think that`s probably true. But again, murder-for-hire cases, I`m just saying, in the real world are incredibly leaky (ph) because what happens is people do show disgust and anger. And typically, what happens is they put either an undercover law enforcement person or an undercover cooperator in there, and they start kind of egging the person on.
Natisha used an interesting term, and I`m glad she did -- She didn`t take the bait. OK, think about that for a second because the point is, they went back to her and said, Remember how you said you wanted me to do A and B, and she was not on board at all. So it`s weak on that front. As far as the other aspect with the child, that`s a whole different discussion.
CASAREZ: No, I think you`re right. I understand what you`re saying.
I want to go very quickly to Bruce McCain. He`s a former captain of the Multnomah County sheriff`s office. That`s the sheriff`s department that is investigating this case. He is also an attorney. Your thoughts on this, about solicitation and murder for hire? Very difficult to prove, even in this case?
BRUCE MCCAIN, ATTORNEY, FMR. CAPT., MULTNOMAH CTY. SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, Jean, again, we don`t exactly know what we have, other than the landscaper`s word. But this was, obviously, going to be part of this affidavit with the restraining order. And there`s more than just the landscaper`s word if this Multnomah County circuit court judge not only issued the restraining order but also, by the way, has sealed the affidavit from disclosure to the media and the public. And the consensus is here is that because this is a separate class A felony not involving Kyron, but involving Kaine, that the district attorney here could actually leverage that against Terri Horman to try to find out what, if any, role she had in Kyron`s disappearance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search for Kyron Horman getting more national attention, focusing primarily on Kyron`s stepmother, Terri Horman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s the last known person to see Kyron before he disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kyron`s family are asking the community`s assistance regarding anyone who may have seen Terri Horman, his stepmother, and/or the truck that she was driving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just have this overwhelming feeling of (INAUDIBLE) I feel guilt for not being there to protect him!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A source tells CNN affiliate that stepmom Terri Horman allegedly tried to hire a hit man to kill her husband.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say Kyron`s stepmom brought him to school Friday morning, took this picture of him at Skyline`s science fair.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kyron never made it to class.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last person to see Kyron alive...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He did not show up to his first class.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Last person to see him alive...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kyron is still alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It absolutely breaks your heart as you hear her say, We believe Kyron is alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This just might be an unsolved case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session," in for Nancy Grace tonight. Just when you think this is a missing persons case, a little boy -- and it is -- where is Kyron Horman, 7 years old, thick glasses, last seen at his science project at school -- but now police are telling our CNN affiliates that the landscaper was actually solicited by the stepmother to kill the husband. I mean, that`s like what you hear on "Desperate Housewives," but this is allegedly real life.
I want to go back out to Bruce McCain. He`s a former captain of the Multnomah County sheriff`s department there in Portland, Oregon, standing by live with Natisha Lance. You know, it just takes probable cause to arrest someone for a crime. Is it better that they not arrest Terri Horman and maybe say Terri Horman is not a suspect or a person of interest at all -- is it better to not arrest someone like that or to arrest them? Because time is of the essence to find this little boy?
MCCAIN: Well, Jean, this is kind of a chess match right now because, as you know, it only takes probable cause to make an arrest, but the district attorney is working very closely with the investigators here. And a DA, of course, has a much higher burden of proof, beyond a reasonable doubt for every element of that crime. So at this point, they may have enough to arrest but they may not have enough to secure a conviction.
On the other hand, it`s often advantageous, if you have somebody that you`re not really that concerned about committing an additional crime, to simply let them run and see where they go and where they lead you because if they were to arrest Terri Horman right now and lodge her in the Multnomah County jail, any attempt to have surveillance on her 24/7 would be limited to their jail conversations and letters, and that may not be very helpful at this time.
CASAREZ: All right, but a little boy is missing. Kimberley in Arizona -- we`re taking your calls live. Hi, Kimberley.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. First of all, I have to say welcome back.
CASAREZ: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I actually have two quick questions. The first one is, do they have surveillance on the school property for not just this but for future incidents that may occur? And also, has she taken her lie detector test? And so do we know the results?
CASAREZ: All right, really good question. Natisha Lance, NANCY GRACE producer out there in Portland, Oregon. I don`t think this elementary school is like it is in Lima, Peru, right? Surveillance cameras at the school?
LANCE: No surveillance cameras at the school, Jean. And also, another thing that people been pointing out throughout this investigation is about Kyron -- no automatic attendance system also at the school. Now, there`s over 80 schools in this school district. This was not a school that had any type of attendance issues. So when Kyron Horman was marked absent in his classroom, there was not a phone call that was made home. So it wasn`t until 3:45 that his parents found out that he was missing, then called the school, and then the school called 911.
CASAREZ: Right. To Kevin Miller, investigative reporter, out of Boise, Idaho, tonight. Kimberly also wanted to know about polygraphs. What can you tell us about those?
KEVIN MILLER, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST (via telephone): Jean, she`s taken two. And this in from the CNN affiliates, that her performance after several hours of polygraphs, the sources have told CNN affiliates that she`s being evasive. And they`re taking a look at her computers, as well, to once again try and hone in on that timeline from what she said to what the reality of the evidence that the officials have.
CASAREZ: To Sue in Iowa. Hi, Sue. Good evening.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, sweetie.
CASAREZ: Hi. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m really wondering how long the science fair was scheduled. Was it scheduled at the beginning of the school year or just months ahead? Because she had opportunity to plan this way ahead. If she wanted to kill her husband and planned that, did she have the opportunity to take the chance to plan to take him when everybody was going be around, there was nobody -- I mean, there was the public going to be in that school, which is really...
CASAREZ: Sue, I know exactly what you`re saying, and I`ve the expert to answer it, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "The Profiler." A wrench has been thrown into all of this in one sense because we see a modus operandi, allegedly, of trying to put a hit on your husband. But now we see a little boy last seen with you, now disappeared. What do you make of it, Pat?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Yes, Jean, I think this caller has a point. If we look at this murder-for-hire, if it were true, that would show that she does plan things ahead of time. Maybe she did, if she was involved in this, plan to have Kyron go missing that morning, bring him to the school, know that there was nobody around, pull him back out, put him in the truck, drive away and said, He was there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We implore Terri Horman to fully cooperate with the investigators.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They believe that Terri Horman has these answers.
GRACE: ... begging the stepmother to please help police!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was the last person to see him alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I haven`t seen one scintilla of evidence linking her to this criminal offense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: CNN affiliate reports a source claims Kyron`s stepmom, Terri Horman, tried to hire a hit man to kill her husband.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They need to get her story straight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session," in for Nancy Grace tonight. Well, CNN affiliates are confirming through their sources that the stepmother, Terri Horman, in all of this, allegedly asked the landscaper that she`d hired without her husband knowing about the landscaper to murder her husband several months before little Kyron went missing. It`s all coming together. It is breaking in Portland, Oregon.
I want to go out to Matt Zarrell, NANCY GRACE producer. Here`s what I want to know. Was the stepmother ever confronted with this murder-for-hire plot? Was she ever asked, Is it true, Is it not?
ZARRELL: Well, what -- from what sources are telling CNN affiliates is on that same day, June 26th, the day of the alleged recorded conversation, they confront her about what they have. She turns around, she denies it. She says, I had nothing to do with it.
CASAREZ: OK, she denies it. Now, what about these 911 calls? It`s the same day, right, June 26th?
ZARRELL: Yes. Exactly. At 5:17 PM, the first 911 call is made, threats on the property, our reports. Cops do go to the home a few minutes later. The issue is allegedly resolved. And then about five hours later, about 11:39 PM, second call`s made to 911. This is termed a "custody call." This call, officers were not sent out. The issue was resolved over the phone. But sources are saying that Kaine Horman was not in the home for either call, leading everyone to believe that stepmom Terri Horman is the one that made both 911 calls.
CASAREZ: OK. Very interesting. To Paula Bloom (ph), clinical psychologist, a blogger on Huffingtonpost. You know, this is getting more confusing as we talk. And I don`t want to lose focus. This is a little 7- year-old boy that has been missing for a long time. Police still believe he could be alive.
One thing I want to ask you is, if there`s any truth to her wanting her husband murdered for money, could the little boy be alive? Could the motive be different here, to keep the little boy alive until the other plot can be carried off?
PAULA BLOOM, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think the motive could be completely different. I don`t think that you can make an assumption. I do think, though, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. So if she`s somebody who`s had the ability to plan something like this, then this is somebody who has the ability to do lots of different things.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is such a mystery.
GRACE: How does a 7-year-old little boy go missing from his own elementary school classroom?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They certainly have focused the investigation on Terri Horman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A reliable source tells News Channel Eight Terri Horman has refused to answer investigator`s questions. And she`s been evasive on a polygraph.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Terri Horman, who`s in the middle of a divorce from Kyron`s father, has been under intense scrutiny since Kyron disappeared June 4th.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The source also confirms cell phone records indicate Terri Horman lied about her whereabouts the day Kyron disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She told police she last saw him walking down a hallway to his 7th grade classroom.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: He is never seen again.
DESIREE YOUNG, MOTHER OF MISSING 7-YR-OLD BOY, KYRON HORMAN: We implore Terri Horman to fully cooperate with the investigators to bring Kyron home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The heat is on and she`s got a great lawyer.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session" on the truTV network in for Nancy Grace tonight.
Straight out to Natisha Lance, NANCY GRACE producer on the ground in Oregon. What is the breaking news out of the Portland area and why should we believe the landscaper?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, that`s a good question, Jean. But the breaking news out of the Portland area is Terri Horman hired a landscaper and in the process of that landscaper working for the home, approached him with a large sum of money asking him to murder her husband Kaine Horman.
Now, Jean, it`s important to point out this happens seven months ago. And this landscaper never came forward. He was found through investigators. So I think we do also have to question why didn`t he come forward at that time if this is true, which is sources are telling our affiliates it is, and Terri Horman, according to what Matt Zarrell was also saying earlier, had denied these allegations.
CASAREZ: We are taking your calls live tonight. And with Natisha out in Portland, Oregon live is Bruce McCain, former captain Multnomah County Sheriff`s Office that is the division that is investigating this. He is also an attorney.
Mr. Bruce McCain, thank you so much for joining us out there. You can give us so much insight. And I want to ask you, why would somebody lie? Why would a landscaper lie that he was solicited by Terri Horman to commit murder?
BRUCE MCCAIN, FMR. CAPTAIN, MULTNOMAH CO. SHERIFF`S OFFICE, ATTORNEY; AT SCHOOL WHERE KYRON LAST SEEN: Well, those issues of credibility are things that obviously a defense lawyer will look at down the road. But right now the investigators and the district attorney are also looking, is this a credible witness?
And the key here as we hinted on earlier is, is there enough with this landscaper`s story to possibly indict Terri and put that class A felony hanging over her head unrelated to Kyron?
Under Oregon law, it would be Terri that would be simply accused -- charged with solicitation. If the landscaper actually agreed, he`d be also part of a conspiracy. But there`s no indication that he agreed so this place is a one way solicitation on behalf of Terri Horman.
CASAREZ: To Anne Bremner, defense attorney out of Seattle, Washington. Also does a lot of work in the Oregon area. How did this come down, do you think? Investigators, obviously, must have gotten a sworn statement from the landscaper describing what he says --
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.
CASAREZ: -- allegedly happened several months ago, so close in time to when Terri Horman is the last known person to be seen with little Kyron Horman.
Do you think law enforcement went to the husband and imported that information? Just tell us how you think it went down.
BREMNER: I do. I do. And that`s what led to the chain of events, Jean, where he`s wanting a divorce, restraining order, and everything else that`s getting her of their lives.
But, you know, I have to ask myself. I`ve handled murder-for-hire cases. I have a victim in one right now. You know we have a lot more than just a story. And the fact is, you know, this happened six, seven months ago, and you think, who do you go to for a hit-man. You go -- you know, to someone that`s like in the mafia, someone who`s in the crime world, or do you go to the lawn and leaf guy?
I mean this is just something that you`ve got to kind of look at in defending Terri Horman, and say, you know, wait a minute, you know, it`s curiouser and curiouser here with the facts as they`re stacking up right now.
But we`ve got to look at everything independently. And in terms of looking at this fairly, Jean.
CASAREZ: But to Doug Burns, defense attorney out of New York. One thing that a restraining order says that she cannot be around firearms. It doesn`t say she can`t be around knives or explosives or toxins but firearms. There`s a reason for that. Can`t that go back to the landscaper and what he`s saying in the story?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, not necessarily. I mean a firearm provision is very, very standard. I don`t know if she owned any firearms. I wasn`t catching that in what you were saying.
But again, not to be a broken record. We don`t know any amount of money. The guy sits on this for seven months, letting the person who is supposedly in threat of death walk around with death hanging over him.
I mean you can detect my obvious sarcasm. And the fact of the matter is, they then wire him up against her and there`s just nothing there. So again, I apologize for being so harsh on this, but this is a very weak murder-for-hire case.
CASAREZ: Well, it`s a good point because the little boy was missing for weeks. It was front page news and the landscaper didn`t come forward maybe out of fear.
To Donna in Michigan, thanks for holding on. Hi, Donna.
DONNA, CALLER FROM MICHIGAN: Hi. I love you, Nancy. And I just want to say my husband and I were foster parents for 17 years and we had one child for four years and they had to leave.
I`m wondering if maybe she hid Kyron because she was afraid of losing him, because if she got divorced mom would get him? If he dies, mom would still get him?
And also can you say a happy birthday to my daughter? She`s 14.
CASAREZ: Happy birthday. What`s her name?
DONNA: Caylee (ph).
CASAREZ: All right. Happy, happy birthday.
Pat Brown, criminal profiler, that`s a wonderful thing that Donna is saying because that would mean the little boy is alive. Could this be a case where she`s was hiding the child? She raised him from near birth.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": Right. I mean it`s always a possibility. And we can hope that because that would be the greatest answer. It`s possible.
But I want to talk about this landscaper dude. Anne was saying, why would you go to that guy? Well, heck, you know, a lot of these guys that do landscaping, fixes around houses -- not saying this guys does. A lot of them get those jobs because they`re easy to get.
You have a criminal record, you can`t get hired by a company but you can put out your card. I hired a gutter man. As soon as he came to my house, he told me he`d be in the pen for 15 years for murder. So hey, I had a guy right there if I wanted to knock somebody off a little. Even happy to do it for me.
So I can`t say he`s not the guy. And the other thing is, he may not have come forward because he did have a criminal background. He wasn`t too keen about talking to the police. So we don`t know yet whether she did or did not actually make this offer.
But we can`t say that she didn`t. And that she may have also said hey, I`m not taking that bait. I only was joking about it. Well, that, if she said she was joking about it, that might be interesting.
CASAREZ: Natisha Lance, NANCY GRACE producer, standing by live in Oregon. What more do we know about the landscaper and Terri Horman. Did they have a relationship? Did they e-mail? We believe that police may have the computer of Terri Horman. Even her cell phone. I mean how much of a relationship was there?
LANCE: We know very minimal about what their relationship was, Jean. But we could possibly -- there could possibly be e-mails, there could possibly be phone exchanges between the two of them or could be text messages.
We do know that investigators are looking through Terri Horman`s e- mails. They`re looking through her phone records. So it is a very likely possibility that if these conversations did happen with this landscaper they would be documented.
CASAREZ: To Bruce McCain, former captain of Multnomah County, if they had this documentation of this murder-for-hire, why would they put the wire on the landscaper a week ago Saturday? Wouldn`t they have enough for an arrest?
MCCAIN: Maybe not. This will be more for corroboration, to make sure that they actually -- again this gets back to difference between probable cause for arrest and gearing up for a DA to prosecute.
CASAREZ: How about getting information --
MCCAIN: There`s nothing --
CASAREZ: -- on the little boy, Kyron Horman? How about getting information on record, on a phone with him wired if they`d spoken about murder before? Wouldn`t officers think that maybe he -- she`d be more willing to talk about Kyron?
MCCAIN: That`s actually I think the point here all along, is that this murder-for-hire plot fell in the lap of the district attorney and they now have a powerful lever that they can try to use with Terri.
But her antenna are obviously up. So when a landscaper shows up, perhaps having not been around for a while and starts talking about that particular topic, Terri`s antenna obviously went up and she just clammed up.
So that may have been actually kind of a clumsy move but it was certainly worth the effort to try to find Kyron. Because don`t forget, one missing person that nobody is really talking about here is if Kyron is alive. He`s not with Terri. He`s not with Kaine. So the question is who is he with?
CASAREZ: Right.
MCCAIN: That`s the silhouette with the question mark that we haven`t found out yet.
CASAREZ: Right. Which leads me to Dr. Panchali Dhar, MD, internal medicine, author of "Before the Scalpel." Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
You know, if he is safe somewhere, a little 7-year-old boy needs care and attention. But if he is alone and wandering, it is a month now. Could he be alive?
DR. PANCHALI DHAR, MD, AUTHOR OF "BEFORE THE SCALPEL": It is very possible that he is hidden. At the very minimum he`s going to need food and water to survive because without access to food and water he would be dead in about three to four days with absolutely no food and water.
Now let`s say he was involved in a struggle with Terri Horman. If you take a good look at Kyron`s picture, he is clearly farsighted which means he has difficulty seeing near objects. If he were to lose his glasses or they were to break, he would become disoriented, confused and the poor boy at 7 years old would not know where to turn for help.
Kyron, if he were left in the woods, perhaps, by Terri, could be hurt by insects and in that part of Oregon there could be wolves and bears and foxes that could attack him. He could have been stung by a bee and died from an anaphylactic reaction. Maybe she`s hiding that. So we have to look at all of these possibilities.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Four days after Kyron disappeared, his step mom posted on her Facebook page, "Hitting the gym tomorrow. I didn`t get home until 8:00 p.m. tonight."
The next day (INAUDIBLE) investigators found Terri and Kaine Horman leaving their gym after a workout.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YOUNG: Kyron is still alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And our belief on what we have to date is there is no indication whatsoever for us to believe other than the fact that Kyron is still alive.
YOUNG: We implore Terri Horman to fully cooperate with the investigators to bring Kyron home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Terri has an attorney. And based on the fact she has an attorney there are certain aspects and ways that we communicate with her from this point forward, we have to follow those protocols.
YOUNG: We pray each day for Kyron.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone is a person of interest. We have not named any suspects in this case at this point.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session" in for Nancy Grace tonight.
Terri Horman is not a suspect. She is not a person of interest. She has not been arrested. But CNN affiliates are confirming that law enforcement sources that she allegedly solicited to hire her landscaper to kill her husband. And this would be several months -- just several months -- before little Kyron Horman went missing.
I want to go out to Kevin Miller, investigative reporter. First of all, have there been inconsistencies that are noted with Terri Horman`s story. And if so, what are they?
KEVIN MILLER, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Jean, there have been inconsistencies according to the sources from CNN. Cell phones have been very particular when you`re talking about where and where she`s been during the day Kyron disappeared.
They seem to indicate that she may not have been where she said she was that day. That`s been a source of, you know, discontent there with the police and with Terri Horman.
Also, several hours of polygraph, sources have told CNN that they indicate that she was being evasive and they`re taking a look at her computer, who she was talking to before and after Kyron`s disappearance to find out who she was talking and whether that matches up with her story.
CASAREZ: All right. Let`s go out to the callers. Karen in Iowa. Hi, Karen. Good evening.
KAREN, CALLER FROM IOWA: Hi. How are you tonight?
CASAREZ: I`m fine.
KAREN: I was just wondering, in the clip that they`re showing of Terri Horman leaning towards the parental mother and then towards her husband, she just seems to be clingy but not really engaged with her eyes.
Has anyone really analyzed that clip for her body language?
CASAREZ: Well, let`s ask a clinical psychologist. Paula Bloom, clinical psychologist, blogger for the "Huntington Post". You just saw that video and Karen in Iowa makes a very observationist point. What do you think?
PAULA BLOOM, PSYCHOLOGIST: People cope with things in different ways and I don`t know that I can look at sort of the angle of her head and decide she`s guilty or not. I think, you know, people cope in different ways.
One of the things I want to talk about, though, is the thing about the gym that`s been talked about so much.
You know when my father passed away, my brother was a few weeks before the Boston marathon. OK? When he found out that our father passed away he went for a run. I don`t think it means he didn`t care about my dad. It`s -- what people do when people are health conscious, a lot of times that`s their first instinct.
So I think a lot of assumptions are being made based on those kinds of things.
CASAREZ: All right. And they always are. And many times I think that it`s used later in court as that state of mind, that consciousness of guilt, but you`re right. People do react in various ways.
Alberta in Tennessee, hi, Alberta.
ALBERTA, CALLER FROM TENNESSEE: Hi, Jean. Welcome back.
CASAREZ: Thank you.
ALBERTA: My question is pertaining to the photograph of Kyron standing beside his science project, from the brief glimpses that they have shown of that picture, it`s usually a close-up. And I haven`t been able to see anyone in the background. It`s my understanding that there were supposed to be a lot of people at that school that morning.
CASAREZ: You know, Alberta, you`re so smart. That is, I think a fabulous question and to Matt Zarrell, NANCY GRACE producer, is that not what I asked you, Matt, before we went on the show?
I said I want to know when that picture is taken. Is it date stamped and how do we know it was taken the morning of the science fair? What do you know?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Well, I haven`t seen a date stamp on it but we do know that investigators have released this photo as part of the flier for Kyron so they probably believe that it is him in the photo.
But what`s interesting is, it appears that this photo was taken as they`re setting up the science fair project. This is for the whole school so each grade -- 2nd grade, 3rd grade, 4th grade -- they all have science fair projects in their own classroom.
Now after Kyron was done with his project, him and stepmom Terri Horman went to a number of other different classrooms to see the other projects. He wanted to see a couple of the other projects. That`s when apparently the bell rang and he starts to head towards class and stepmom waves good-bye.
CASAREZ: You know, and to Alberta in Tennessee, there was a question here that was sent by law enforcement to all of the parents who have students at that school and there`s a section for them to fill up and the students for them to ask their kids the question, did you see Kyron that day? Did you see Terri Horman? When did you see them? Where did you see them? Did you see Terri Horman leave? What vehicle did she get into?
So many questions because those eyewitnesses are going be key, Alberta. And we don`t know the answers to that yet. Because they haven`t released them.
To Bruce McCain, former captain of Multnomah County Sheriff`s Office and also attorney.
I want to ask you, CNN affiliates, through their sources are saying that the father in all, this Kaine Horman, was told by law enforcement, quote, "If she did it once there`s a chance she did it other times. We are investigating."
As a former sheriff`s deputy with that division, how would you interpret that statement?
MCCAIN: Well, you know, I think this is going back to the information that they relayed to Kaine on that critical weekend that prompted the divorce filing and the restraining order. That`s just kind of came out of the blue. And for all indications this took Kaine by complete surprise.
And don`t forget that this landscaper business, he said-she said, this actually was reviewed by a Multnomah County Circuit Court judge who was convinced this was more than just hearsay. That there`s credible evidence here. So this is again, Kaine learning stuff from the investigators.
You know, I could also add about that photograph real quickly. There actually was a second photograph that appear, I believe, on her Facebook page that actually showed in the upper left hand corner an adult male. And that person was identified. He said yes, that was me at that point. So it gets back to the exit data as they call it on the photographs in question.
CASAREZ: All right. Really, really good points right there, Mr. McCain.
Doug Burns, defense attorney, so what do you think of that? This had to go before a judge, this alleged murder-for-hire plot and the threat of imminent harm had to be apparent before that restraining order was issued.
BURNS: Yes, but I haven`t seen the documents. And I`m not so sure there weren`t other issues. I think Bruce can explain it better. I think there were other matrimonial family arguments that were part of that paperwork and that restraining order.
What I`m saying in a round-about way is I`m not sure that the murder- for-hire plot per se was part of that. But again, he makes an excellent point. Probable cause is probable cause. It means probably. And of course, he`s been very careful, Bruce, I commend him to say that`s a far cry from beyond a reasonable doubt.
But once again, this landscaper walked around for seven months with this.
CASAREZ: That`s right. Good point.
Heather in New York. Hi, Heather, good evening.
HEATHER, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Jean. Welcome home.
CASAREZ: Thank you.
HEATHER: I have two questions. The first one is now that we know that the stepmom was not in the area she said she was via her cell phone records, have we searched the area around where that was to see if maybe Kyron was there or some property of his or something like that? And second is, where is the stepmom now?
CASAREZ: All right. We`ll get to your question with Natisha Lance right after the break. Thanks, Heather.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A lot of attention has been focused on Kyron`s stepmom Terri Horman. Investigators have circulated flyers asking people for information on her whereabouts the day Kyron went missing.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Terri Horman`s father said there was a 50-50 chance Terri would be arrested.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stunning developments today in the case of missing 7-year-old Kyron Horman. CNN affiliate reports a source claims Kyron`s stepmom Terri Horman tried to hire a hit-man to kill her husband.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators won`t say if she`s a suspect or a person of interest.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session" in for Nancy Grace tonight. We want to answer Heather`s question out of New York, which was talking about the search and also some inconsistencies, allegedly, about Terri Horman, where she said she was, where her cell phone pings were.
And remember, she`s not a suspect. She`s not a person of interest. She has not been arrested. Nothing.
Out to Natisha Lance, NANCY GRACE producer standing by live in Oregon right now. Tell me about Sauvie Island, if I`m saying that correctly.
LANCE: You are saying that correctly. And Sauvie Island is about six miles away from the school, Jean. This is one of the preliminary places where investigators searched.
According to reports, Terri Horman`s cell phone pinged to Sauvie Island. Now this is a huge, huge location. The Columbia River is there which flows out into the Pacific Ocean. There were divers in that water. Very, very murky conditions down there. And investigators did search very thoroughly that location.
CASAREZ: All right. To Cindy in Iowa, before we go, good evening, Cindy.
CINDY, CALLER FROM IOWA: Hi, Jean. Welcome home.
CASAREZ: Thank you.
CINDY: I`ve got t quick questions.
CASAREZ: Yes.
CINDY: Number one. Have there been any problems with Kyron and his stepmom in the past? Any type of abuse, verbal, physical? Has anybody noticed anything? And since the new baby is here, I`m wondering if maybe there`s jealousy that daddy spend time with Kyron and not the new baby?
CASAREZ: Cindy, you hit a very good point that I have not mentioned.
Matt Zarrell, in March of this year -- tell me if I`m wrong -- but her blood son left the home to live with her parents. Why?
ZARRELL: Yes, apparently from reports, he had clashed with the father Kaine Horman and they felt it was best that he not live there any more.
CASAREZ: All right. So there you go.
(snipped-not Kyron related)
And please remember Kyron Horman, 7 years old. He`s missing. He`s a second grader. Very thick glasses. From Portland, Oregon.
Good night, everybody.
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