Natalee Case Discussion #844 7/31/10 - 8/29/2010

[pinkbanana]

The A & E show about Joran ended and another one about Natalee started right after it.

Sorry for the delay on the summary, but I'm recording it too.

I think I've seen that one before, so I stopped it.

I'm working on the summary now.

Thank you TM, I was going to stay up to watch the repeat.

pb

[spooky112483]

John Ludwick is a very disturbing individual
 

[texasmom]

Who is the real Joran van der Sloot?

In the summer of 2010 he sat in a 6 x 11 cell.  He was held in a Peruvian prison after years of trading on his infamous reputation, living as a kind of dark celebrity.

Louis B. Schlesinger, Ph.D.
"He envisioned himself, I think, as some kind of international, wealthy, playboy, high stakes gambler that would romp all over the world...nothing could be further from the truth.  Wherever he goes he leaves a trail of human misery behind him, whether it's manipulation, or conning people out of money; or murder itself."

The story of Joran van der Sloot has been argued in the court of public opinion, here we'll take a different look.  We'll get to know van der Sloot through the eyes of forensic psychologists and criminal experts who have studied the public records and professional assessments of him.  We'll also hear from those who know him, a friend (shows John Ludwick) and a former girlfriend (shows Aline Hibbert) and we'll hear from van der Sloot himself, in his own words.

[texasmom]

John Ludwick is a very disturbing individual
 

I agree.   

[texasmom]

I'm just not a good summarizer, sorry guys you're gonna get it word for word..as good as I can anyway. 

San's a much better summarizer.

 

I'm saving it to a word file as I'm typing it, but I'll post segments all along...and then put the whole thing in a separate thread when I'm finished.

Hope that's o.k.

That way you won't have to wait the hours it will probably take me to do it.

[Magnolia]

You are so good to us, TM.    

[2NJSons_Mom]

I'm just not a good summarizer, sorry guys you're gonna get it word for word..as good as I can anyway. 

San's a much better summarizer.

 

I'm saving it to a word file as I'm typing it, but I'll post segments all along...and then put the whole thing in a separate thread when I'm finished.

Hope that's o.k.

That way you won't have to wait the hours it will probably take me to do it.

You are the best.

I am watching the repeat or the next show.  I only saw the end of the first.

Thank you, so much, for your efforts.   

[spooky112483]

I feel like that was the most accurate program about Joran/Natalee that I have ever seen. It never tried to gloss anything over or give the benefit of the doubt to Joran. No Julia Renfro and no stupid theories. I highly recommend everyone watch it.

[texasmom]

Video clip of Joran
Joran:  "So yeah at one point I told her, it's time to go back to your hotel."

Who is the real Joran van der Sloot?

For the family of Stephany Flores, Joran's latest alleged victim, the answers will come too late.

Louis B. Schlesinger, Ph.D.
"There's a component to his personality that involves rage, and he can be set off if the right trigger is ignited.  We saw in Stephany's case how he responded"

May 30th 2010, Stephany's family worried when she failed to return home from a night out on the town in Lima, Peru.  Eventually word got back to them that video surveillance at the Atlantic City Casino had captured her image with that of a young man.

Stephany's brother
"We saw the video in the casino...and we saw when he left with our sister.

The casino owner showed them a copy of the man's passport, his name was Joran van der Sloot.

Stephany's sister in law
"I put the name of this person in Google.  And we got scared."

What the Flores family found were headlines from the five year nightmare of another family, the family of Natalee Holloway.

Both girls met Joran at a casino, went off with him, and were never seen alive again.

In Stephany Flores' case, her badly beaten body was eventually discovered in Joran's hotel room.  Natalee Holloway on the other hand, simply vanished.  Joran was the last person to see Natalee alive.  He since made a career of telling and recanting tales about what happened that night exactly five years to the day before the disappearance of Stephany Flores.

[texasmom]

This is the only part of his story that hasn't changed.

Joran
"I remember when I first saw her, I remember her and her friends coming up to the table...they sat down...they wanted to play blackjack."

It was May 29th 2005, van der Sloot was then a 17 year old Dutch boy with his family on the Caribbean island of Aruba.  He met a group of sheltered Americans at a hotel casino there, one of them was Natalee.

Video of Joran
"They were telling me it was their last night and asked if I wanted to go to Carlos 'n Charlie's."

Joran went with two friends, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe.  The three arrived at local bar Carlos 'n Charlie's shortly before closing time in the early morning hours of May 30th.

Video of Joran
"Right when I walked in I saw Natalee was dancing and she screamed at me to go dance with her...and then she came down off the stage and grabbed me by my hand and said come with me and she took me to the bar.  And then I asked her what she wanted to drink and she said what do you suggest and I said Bacardi 151, that's a shot I normally take with my friends.  And we took a shot together."

Natalee ended up leaving the bar with Joran and his two friends. 

From there his story has changed many times.  The only thing that's known for certain is that the next morning Natalee did not show up in the hotel lobby to return home with her group.

[texasmom]

Natalee's mother Beth flew to Aruba and quickly tracked down Joran.  He told her that he and his friends had dropped Natalee at her hotel and never saw her again.

Beth
"Those three suspects fabricated a story within the first three hours of meeting us on the island."

Peter R. DeVries
"It shows that he is a very trained liar, and I think he's done that all his life.  He was lying to his parents, to his teachers...anybody."

Louis B. Schlesinger, Ph.D.
Forensic Psychologist
"There's an arrogance about him.  He thinks he's superior to other people, that he thinks he's smarter than other people.  He can get others to do what he wants them to do."

Born in the Netherlands, Joran's family moved to Aruba a Dutch protectorate when he was a small child.  There they joined the Dutch colony that runs much of the island. 

Video of Jossy Mansur
"His father was a man that was working in the Ministry of Justice, he had a high position there.  Anita, his mother is a teacher in the school...an arts teacher.

Video of Anita van der Sloot
"Although we're Dutch, but...we consider ourselves as locals."

The van der Sloot family made a comfortable life in Aruba.  Joran was the oldest of their three sons.

Video of Anita van der Sloot
"He loves his sport...he plays soccer...he plays tennis on a high level.  He meets his coaches.  He works at school with young children, he helps the PE teacher with the younger ones at our school."

Video of Aline Hibbert
"At home, he's very social with his father...and with his mother...and we would always eat at the table when the mom cooks.  It was very like a family and very comfortable environment in his family.

Aline Hibbert is a friend and former girlfriend of Joran's who spent a lot of time with his family.

Video of Aline Hibbert
"People say that Joran was very spoiled and that his parent's let him do whatever he wanted but that's not true.  I see that as Anita, his mom supported him in whatever he wanted to do that was not bad or would hurt him or hurt other people."

But Joran did seem to be able to manipulate his parents.

Video of John Ludwick
"Joran was sometimes honest with his mother but you know he could con her pretty easily."

Video of Bryan Burrough
Special Correspondent, Vanity Fair
"This was a kid who was out most nights, well past midnight, in casino...with alcohol.  His parents had very little control over him."

Joran often snuck out of the house, it wasn't hard because his parents had given him an apartment with a separate entrance from the main house.  He spent his nights out working to make friends.

Video of John Ludwick
"Joran was always a nice, giving guy.  I mean he'd be at a blackjack table playing with five strangers and every few minutes he'd throw them all a few free chips...and he'd buy people free food if you were with him.

Video of Aline Hibbert
He liked the attention, he liked people to like him.  I think that comes from because when he was younger he was overweight and people used to really tease him alot when he was younger and I think when he grew up he saw that he lost weight and he looks better...he looks handsome and he maybe wanted to (can't understand this part, listened several times) and that created that he wanted to make people like him.

He didn't just draw people to him though, he often became their leader.


Video of Bryan Burrough
Special Correspondent, Vanity Fair
He had a group of pals, someone called the monontourage (complete GUESS on the spelling of that, lol), because it was clear that Joran was the alpha male.  And that seemed to me largely the function of this confidence...this egotism...that he thought he was something and those of lesser stature, perhaps weaker mind were sometimes inclined to follow him.

His friends say they didn't witness any violent signs in Joran.

Video of John Ludwick
"I never saw him lash out in anger at anyone."

Video of Aline Hibbert
"I've never seen that side of him, his friends have never seen that side of him."

Stephen Diamond, Ph.D.
Forensic Psychologist
"There are individuals who are very good at masking their anger, at masking their rage.  They can be very sweet, very kind, very nice, very loving...but then they can suddenly fly into a rage or become very cruel in other situations.

Did something trigger that rage on May 30th 2005?

[klaasend]

Thanks so much TM, you have transcribed beautifully!

[texasmom]

Yooohooo Allllinnneeee....You never saw that side of him because you never said NO to anything he wanted you to do...with him...or FOR HIM...OR his FRIENDS...you need to just shut up...you were nothing but a BOOTY CALL...and YOU'RE NOT FOOLING ANYONE that's followed this case!
JMO  

[texasmom]

Thanks so much TM, you have transcribed beautifully!

You're welcome!   

I'm only 15 minutes into it so far.   

[cecilita]

This is the only part of his story that hasn't changed.

Joran
"I remember when I first saw her, I remember her and her friends coming up to the table...they sat down...they wanted to play blackjack."

It was May 29th 2005, van der Sloot was then a 17 year old Dutch boy with his family on the Caribbean island of Aruba.  He met a group of sheltered Americans at a hotel casino there, one of them was Natalee.

Video of Joran
"They were telling me it was their last night and asked if I wanted to go to Carlos 'n Charlie's."

Joran went with two friends, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe.  The three arrived at local bar Carlos 'n Charlie's shortly before closing time in the early morning hours of May 30th.

Video of Joran
"Right when I walked in I saw Natalee was dancing and she screamed at me to go dance with her...and then she came down off the stage and grabbed me by my hand and said come with me and she took me to the bar.  And then I asked her what she wanted to drink and she said what do you suggest and I said Bacardi 151, that's a shot I normally take with my friends.  And we took a shot together."

Natalee ended up leaving the bar with Joran and his two friends. 

From there his story has changed many times.  The only thing that's known for certain is that the next morning Natalee did not show up in the hotel lobby to return home with her group.

I would like to know what the monster was doing before killed Stephany. Also I would like to know what he was doing in Colombia, I believe that he killed another girls in southamerica. The police should check with how many suitcases he had when he arrived in Peru because if he didnt have any suitcases to place Stephany's body maybe it is because he used them to disposed other bodies.

[Keepthefaith]

Thank you TM.I have it recorded and will watch it in a bit to watch more lies from those who know better!Monkey's know better...Someone can post the incident from the bridge with the homeless man I believe it was.My unorganized mind fails me!I know that's not hard to beleive but,please forgivee me..

[pinkbanana]

TM, Thank you so much again! 

pb

[texasmom]

In 2004, a year before Natalee Holloway disappeared Aline Hibbert met Joran van der Sloot at a party in Aruba.  She was 16.

Video of Aline Hibbert
"He's very enthusiastic (?) and he really likes to make you feel comfortable, that was my first impression of him.  Like...Hey I'm Joran...how are you...what do you want to drink?  And you know he was very...social."

Soon after they met they started dating in typical teenage fashion.

Video of Aline Hibbert
"Melody told me that Joran likes me and that he wanted to date me but we were young so Joran wouldn't tell me that personally.  So he told her to tell me."

Their romance blossomed.

Video of Aline Hibbert
"This is an email that Joran sent me, he wrote me a poem..and it says I'm here for you so please don't ever forget that no matter what ...blush...and always want you.  He's so tall and he's so big that you know it's like when he hugs you...you feel very protected."

How could someone accused of murdering at least one young woman have had normal relationships with others? 

Forensic Psychologist, Louis Schlesinger says that's not uncommon.

Louis B. Schlesinger, Ph.D.
Forensic Psychologist
"It depends if someone set him off in the right way, not everything is going to set him off.  It doesn't mean it wasn't there, obviously it was there."

In the end after dating for a year Aline decided she couldn't handle the competition for Joran, who used the email address loverboy.

Video of Aline Hibbert
"A lot of girls liked Joran like a lot of girls wanted to date him."

Louis B. Schlesinger, Ph.D.
Forensic Psychologist
"Van der Sloot's fairly charming, he's a big guy, he's a fairly handsome guy...he can speak well, he's articulate; and I would think that visitors to the island would find him fairly interesting...in terms of his background...something different."

Joran preferred to meet girls especially tourists at the islands hotels and casinos.

Video of Bryan Burrough
Special Correspondent, Vanity Fair
"It was always clear that this was a kid, whatever else you can say about him...chafed at life in that little town, on that little island.  He was out mingling with the international people, he was going to go to college internationally.  It was always clear that this was a kid who had his eyes beyond Aruba."

It was at one of the hotels that Joran met Natalee Holloway in 2005.  What happened that night was a mystery.  After giving a statement to police the next day, Joran returned home and reassured his family and friends.

Video of Aline Hibbert
"He was very relaxed, he said no, no, no, they just asked me a few questions...and but it's all good...it's all good now."

Video of Anita van der Sloot
"And he was like...everything will be fine mom, dad, don't worry...she will come forward.  So we kind of tried to continue our life."

But on June 9th, ten days after Natalee disappeared; authorities arrested Joran van der Sloot and his friends Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, who were with him that night.  Joran told police a new story...he said the Kalpoe's dropped him and Natalee at the beach.  After they made out for a while he told her it was time to leave.

Video of Joran
"I had to go to school the next day, I was close to my exams...I had to do my final exams...and I knew a bus was picking me up at 6:40am...I mean...I had to go home...so yeah at one point I told her...it's time to go back to your hotel.  And she was just like no, let's stay here...let's look at the stars."

Joran said he left her anyway catching a ride from Satish Kalpoe, but the Kalpoe's said that wasn't true...and the authorities couldn't get a straight answer as to what happened.  At the same time the police had to contend with the complete lack of physical evidence.  There was no body, or even a crime scene.  And Joran who remained in jail throughout the summer as the primary suspect seemed to know they had nothing.

Video
Lawrence Kobilinsky, Ph.D.
Criminologist
"I think he realized that they would have to prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and as long as he could keep that going he had it made, and in fact he was very successful."

[texasmom]

While he was in jail that summer Joran told police three stories. 
That the boys dropped Natalee at her hotel,
that he took her to the beach and left her there,
and that the Kalpoes took her and left him at his house.

Video of Gerald Dompig
Former Deputy Police Chief, Aruba
"The basic story he changed three times, but the little facts changed over 25 times so it was never the same.  He basically makes up his story every time you talk to him"


Video
Louis B. Schlesinger, Ph.D.
Forensic Psychologist
"Each of the stories in isolation seems credible when you observe him but he's obviously not telling the entire truth.  There may be elements of truthfulness in each of these stories but I doubt very very much if any of these stories is accurate and truthful."

The Arubans brought in interrogators from the Netherlands to question Joran, FBI profilers watched the sessions as well; but none of them succeeded in getting the truth from him.

Video
Louis B. Schlesinger, Ph.D.
Forensic Psychologist
"Many teenagers would break down start crying be unable to handle this type of stressful situation, but that wasn't Joran's manner at all.  He seemed as cool, calm, and relaxed...and in control of things as could possibly be.  There's an arrogance about him that slowly emerges."

The FBI experts watching the interrogations, made a diagnosis.

Video of Gerald Dompig
Former Deputy Police Chief, Aruba
"Their first impression that this seemed like a person who always got his way, and it was a manipulative person.  A person who was very intelligent, very smart.  They used the word sociopath."

That assessment makes sense to those that study the psychology of criminals.

Video
Louis B. Schlesinger, Ph.D.
Forensic Psychologist
"Sociopath and psychopath are terms that are used interchangeably.  What is meant by a psychopath is really somebody who is devoid of human emotion.  When you look at Joran he seems really fairly normal, but when you examine his behavior what he did to other people you begin to see a pattern that he lacks empathy; he lacks interpersonal connectedness."

Despite the professional diagnosis of Joran, authorities still had little proof against him.  So after he was held and questioned for ninety days, a judge ruled there was not sufficient cause to hold him any longer.  He was free to go.  In Aruba, many people sided with Joran believing whatever happened to Natalee was an accident. 

I think a lot of people believed what had happened is something unfortunate...that she fell and hit her head...that there was some type of accident that he covered up.

Video of John Ludwick
"Joran would always tell me you know I have nothing to be ashamed of and I didn't do anything wrong."

But it's possible there was a more sinister explanation for her disappearance.

Video
Louis B. Schlesinger, Ph.D.
Forensic Psychologist
"What usually happens in cases like this is there's something sexual that causes some type of rage.  Either the victim does not want to engage in sex or the offender himself can't perform sexually and feels humiliated in some way that is responded to in an outburst of rage and violence."

And if Joran did get away with a crime that summer, he may have been empowered by his experience.

Video
Louis B. Schlesinger, Ph.D.
Forensic Psychologist
"I have seen time and time again, when an individual beats the justice system they become emboldened, they tend to become arrogant, they often repeat their crimes and they get a sense of superiority that they can manipulate just about everybody; and they base it on the fact that they had beat the system at least one time."

[Keepthefaith]

Just finished watching the unveiling of the MONSTER!Aruba blaming the FBI for not giving the go ahead to arrest Urine in Aruba,on camera at that,was PRICELESS.Aruba could have arrested Urine at anytime.They didn't NEED the FBI's approval.I don't think anyone on Aruba questions where Urine got his sociopathic tenedencies.Aruba CHOSE not to disturb the MONSTER,but let it continue it's TERROR.Blood is washing upon your shores Aruba!