Kyron Horman, 7 years old PORTLAND, OR #10 7/25/10 - 7/27/10

[Brandi]

14 minutes until Dateline NBC here.

[Titch]

DD I don't expect you to be able to answer, but the hypothetical about Terri being across state lines is very interesting.

 yes, the "hypothetical" is very interesting... could it mean a fed grand jury? or can it still be a state grand jury..

IANAL, but it sounds to me if a crime occurred across state lines, as in a kidnapping or murder, then it would be a federal crime and require a federal grand jury.

Found this: (at http://campus.udayton.edu/~grandjur/stategj/funcsgj.htm)

Grand juries in other states, including Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, California, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Nebraska, Nevada, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia and West Virginia, can investigate any activity that appears to violate the criminal law of their state as long as the activity in question occurs within their venue, which is usually the county in which the grand jury sits. The third category is composed of state grand juries that investigate certain kinds of criminal activity, which often involves drug crimes or organized crime. These grand juries, which are known as "special grand juries," "statewide grand juries," "state grand juries" or "multicounty grand juries," usually sit in addition to the more conventional grand juries that are usually convened in these states.

Sooo... Hypothetically thinking here: Say terri took Kyron from school & raced across Sauvie Island right into Vancouver Washington (which she's familiar apparently with Vancouver), it would be an incredibly short trip, tons of places to hide a body. Maybe the taking of Kyron from the school wasn;t a crime, driving to Washington wouldn;t be a crime, but harming Kyron in Washington would be a crime & subject to it's penalties & legal system. How would that work? Jess, Brandi, anyone with legalese know? If a subject is taken but not harmed until crossing state lines, how does the jmatter of jurisdiction work? Would they have to find the body or some sort of evidence (dna) before charging? Maybe that's one of the reasons Terri is biding her time by keeping her mouth shut? I have absolutely no idea, only wondering. Directly across Sauvie Island is Vancouver. There's a big lake there. Has it been searched even just a little bit?

[d in texas]

LauralPorter
 
Attorney for Terri Horman's friend, Dede Spicher talked to @datelinenbc about #Kyron case. What he said on KGW8 at 6pm and on Today show.

I can hear him now. "Yes, she answered some questions today."

Seriously, there is not much he can legally say.

JMO.

Actually from what Natasha Lance said he told her, I expect him to say

"She didn't answer any questions today."

OS

heh

I believe he did state that she answered some questions today, and that she was called in to do so in the video of them coming out of the courthouse.

Uh huh ... ok. And the sky is what colour?

 

her answers where all the same I plead the 5th amendment...lol

[Wyks]

what I am wondering is this... if they have to have a fed grand jury if this involves another state, then we will know there is something going on in another state?  or at least something federal..

but if they are across state line do they HAVE to use a fed grand jury?  or can they still us a state one?  that is my question.. I guess I will have to go look this up and see.. just wondered if anyone else knows...

remember portland is really the same place as van couver washington, you just cross the river/state line... its right there.  so would be easy to be across the state line and everything become federal. 

And that is what I'm trying to fit in that time line, the one where she was driving around while soothing the baby, but don't think that would be enough time to cross into Washington state, or would there be time to do so?

portland is at the edge of the columbian river.  on portland's side of the river is oregon, the other side of the river is washington.  just a matter of crossing the bridge, which takes no time at all.

[d in texas]

DD I don't expect you to be able to answer, but the hypothetical about Terri being across state lines is very interesting.

 yes, the "hypothetical" is very interesting... could it mean a fed grand jury? or can it still be a state grand jury..

IANAL, but it sounds to me if a crime occurred across state lines, as in a kidnapping or murder, then it would be a federal crime and require a federal grand jury.

Found this: (at http://campus.udayton.edu/~grandjur/stategj/funcsgj.htm)

Grand juries in other states, including Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, California, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Nebraska, Nevada, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia and West Virginia, can investigate any activity that appears to violate the criminal law of their state as long as the activity in question occurs within their venue, which is usually the county in which the grand jury sits. The third category is composed of state grand juries that investigate certain kinds of criminal activity, which often involves drug crimes or organized crime. These grand juries, which are known as "special grand juries," "statewide grand juries," "state grand juries" or "multicounty grand juries," usually sit in addition to the more conventional grand juries that are usually convened in these states.

Sooo... Hypothetically thinking here: Say terri took Kyron from school & raced across Sauvie Island right into Vancouver Washington (which she's familiar apparently with Vancouver), it would be an incredibly short trip, tons of places to hide a body. Maybe the taking of Kyron from the school wasn;t a crime, driving to Washington wouldn;t be a crime, but harming Kyron in Washington would be a crime & subject to it's penalties & legal system. How would that work? Jess, Brandi, anyone with legalese know? If a subject is taken but not harmed until crossing state lines, how does the jmatter of jurisdiction work? Would they have to find the body or some sort of evidence (dna) before charging? Maybe that's one of the reasons Terri is biding her time by keeping her mouth shut? I have absolutely no idea, only wondering. Directly across Sauvie Island is Vancouver. There's a big lake there. Has it been searched even just a little bit?

It could be divided three ways person COULD NOT be charged with murder in Oregon, would be Washington, in Oregon the person would get say kidnapping, BUT most likely the FBI would take over making it a federal crime.

[Claycat]

14 minutes until Dateline NBC here.

Thanks, Brandi!  Would someone let us know if anything new is reported on Dateline?  Thanks!  I don't have TV service.

[Titch]

oh wait, she goes to the gym after that, so has to leave the store, go to van couver, come back and get to the gym... so yes, if she just drove straight over and dropped off kyron she could get back to the gym... can't she?  someone else take a look.. I am thinking so, but I need to really detail this out more to see for sure

I agree with you doubled. I just posted something to this same effect without even seeing your post. Yes, I believe it's entirely possible. I'd like to know if anyone thinks a body could have been hidden on a property off of Logie and then transferred at a later date.

[Titch]

DD I don't expect you to be able to answer, but the hypothetical about Terri being across state lines is very interesting.

 yes, the "hypothetical" is very interesting... could it mean a fed grand jury? or can it still be a state grand jury..

IANAL, but it sounds to me if a crime occurred across state lines, as in a kidnapping or murder, then it would be a federal crime and require a federal grand jury.

Found this: (at http://campus.udayton.edu/~grandjur/stategj/funcsgj.htm)

Grand juries in other states, including Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, California, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Nebraska, Nevada, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia and West Virginia, can investigate any activity that appears to violate the criminal law of their state as long as the activity in question occurs within their venue, which is usually the county in which the grand jury sits. The third category is composed of state grand juries that investigate certain kinds of criminal activity, which often involves drug crimes or organized crime. These grand juries, which are known as "special grand juries," "statewide grand juries," "state grand juries" or "multicounty grand juries," usually sit in addition to the more conventional grand juries that are usually convened in these states.

Sooo... Hypothetically thinking here: Say terri took Kyron from school & raced across Sauvie Island right into Vancouver Washington (which she's familiar apparently with Vancouver), it would be an incredibly short trip, tons of places to hide a body. Maybe the taking of Kyron from the school wasn;t a crime, driving to Washington wouldn;t be a crime, but harming Kyron in Washington would be a crime & subject to it's penalties & legal system. How would that work? Jess, Brandi, anyone with legalese know? If a subject is taken but not harmed until crossing state lines, how does the jmatter of jurisdiction work? Would they have to find the body or some sort of evidence (dna) before charging? Maybe that's one of the reasons Terri is biding her time by keeping her mouth shut? I have absolutely no idea, only wondering. Directly across Sauvie Island is Vancouver. There's a big lake there. Has it been searched even just a little bit?

It could be divided three ways person COULD NOT be charged with murder in Oregon, would be Washington, in Oregon the person would get say kidnapping, BUT most likely the FBI would take over making it a federal crime.

Thank you d.

[d in texas]

14 minutes until Dateline NBC here.

I don't get it for aother hour so I guess I will be back later.  Don't want to hear anything pre-dateline...airing.

I did find this interesting about grand juries however though I would share>
Grand jury indictments may be amended by the prosecution only in limited circumstances. In Ex parte Bain, 121 U.S. 1 (1887), the Supreme Court held that the indictment could not be changed at all by the prosecution. United States v. Miller, 471 U.S. 130 (1985) partly reversed Ex parte Bain; now, an indictment's scope may be narrowed by the prosecution. Thus, lesser included charges may be dropped, but new charges may not be added.
[url][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Grand_jury/url]

[Tamikosmom]

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/DeDe-Spicher-testifies-before-grand-jury-99252004-kyron-horman-missing-portland.html

Spicher atty. would be 'surprised' if Terri not arrested in Kyron case

by kgw.com Staff

kgw.com

Posted on July 26, 2010 at 12:09 PM
Updated today at 6:14 PM

PORTLAND, Ore. -- DeDe Spicher, identified as a close friend of Terri Moulton-Horman, appeared before a grand jury Monday in Multnomah County as part of the ongoing investigation into the disappearance of her step-son Kyron Horman.

Spicher's attorney told NBC Dateline that he would be "surprised" if Terri was not arrested in the case.

Grand jury proceedings are not open to the public or the media, so it was unknown exactly what Spicher said. However, her attorney did confirm that Spicher was subpoenaed to testify. She did not give any testimony under oath Monday.

Reliable sources told KGW that Spicher was doing gardening work not far from the Horman family home in Northwest Portland on the day Terri's step-son, 7-year-old Kyron Horman, disappeared from Skyline Elementary. Spicher reportedly left where she was working at 11:15 a.m. on June 4 and returned around 1 p.m.

NBC Dateline was set to air a special edition about the case 10 p.m. Monday.

Spicher's attorney Chad Stavley told NBC Dateline Monday that Spicher had been, and planned to keep, cooperating with investigators.

"I would be, frankly, surprised if Terri Horman did not eventually face charges in this case," Stavley said. "I'd be surprised if the indictment didn't come down."

The person who owns the house where Spicher lives, who was cooperating with investigators, told police that she called Spicher on her cell phone but she didn't answer, the source told KGW. A person who was working with Spicher, who was also cooperating with investigators, told them of trying to unsuccessfully find Spicher. Both people have told investigators they have no idea where Spicher was during that period of time.

Sources told KGW that police searched Spicher's home last week. Spicher has known Terri and Kaine for about seven years. Last week, Kyron's parents, Kaine Horman and Desiree Young issued a public plea for Spicher to cooperate with police, threatening a possible civil suit if she refused.

Could it that DeDe Spicher is cooperating afterall?

Janet

[seemeatthebeach]

Comment from Anita Kissee, reporter for at KATU.com....regarding Michael Cook

His wife filed for emergency custody of their children, saying her ex had recently developed a relationship with Terri Moulten Horman and she believed their six year old son was in "immediate danger." BUT... the motion was withdrawn a few days later... so, Michael has the same custody as he had before. There is another hearing schedule for this issue in a few months.

http://khod4kyron.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=kyron&action=display&thread=188

[Tamikosmom]

14 minutes until Dateline NBC here.

Dateline is not on in our area (KING TV - Seattle) for another three hours. Not fair.

 

Janet
7:05 PM PT

[Brandi]

Commercial. My notes so far:

Kyron began living with Kaine ~age 2.

Spending weekends and holidays with Desiree in Medford.

Science and Math are his fave subjects.

He loves school and riding on the bus with other kids.

They have many trips planned for the summer: camping trips, a trip to California and a houseboat reserved for a vacation in August.

That's all I noted so far.

[Tamikosmom]

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/DeDe-Spicher-testifies-before-grand-jury-99252004-kyron-horman-missing-portland.html

Spicher atty. would be 'surprised' if Terri not arrested in Kyron case

by kgw.com Staff

kgw.com

Posted on July 26, 2010 at 12:09 PM
Updated today at 6:14 PM

PORTLAND, Ore. -- DeDe Spicher, identified as a close friend of Terri Moulton-Horman, appeared before a grand jury Monday in Multnomah County as part of the ongoing investigation into the disappearance of her step-son Kyron Horman.

Spicher's attorney told NBC Dateline that he would be "surprised" if Terri was not arrested in the case.

Grand jury proceedings are not open to the public or the media, so it was unknown exactly what Spicher said. However, her attorney did confirm that Spicher was subpoenaed to testify. She did not give any testimony under oath Monday.

Reliable sources told KGW that Spicher was doing gardening work not far from the Horman family home in Northwest Portland on the day Terri's step-son, 7-year-old Kyron Horman, disappeared from Skyline Elementary. Spicher reportedly left where she was working at 11:15 a.m. on June 4 and returned around 1 p.m.

NBC Dateline was set to air a special edition about the case 10 p.m. Monday.

Spicher's attorney Chad Stavley told NBC Dateline Monday that Spicher had been, and planned to keep, cooperating with investigators.

"I would be, frankly, surprised if Terri Horman did not eventually face charges in this case," Stavley said. "I'd be surprised if the indictment didn't come down."

The person who owns the house where Spicher lives, who was cooperating with investigators, told police that she called Spicher on her cell phone but she didn't answer, the source told KGW. A person who was working with Spicher, who was also cooperating with investigators, told them of trying to unsuccessfully find Spicher. Both people have told investigators they have no idea where Spicher was during that period of time.

Sources told KGW that police searched Spicher's home last week. Spicher has known Terri and Kaine for about seven years. Last week, Kyron's parents, Kaine Horman and Desiree Young issued a public plea for Spicher to cooperate with police, threatening a possible civil suit if she refused.

Maybe the house of cards is beginning to collapse.

Janet

++++++

Friend of missing boy's stepmom appears before grand juryBy the CNN Wire Staff
July 26, 2010 5:57 p.m. EDT

Spicher appeared before an investigative grand jury in Portland on Monday, according to her attorney, Chad Stavley.

Stavley, who told HLN that he was retained Friday, said Spicher was not asked any questions by the prosecutor but was ordered to return at a future date.

A statement released Friday by Kaine Horman and Kyron's mother, Desiree Young, described Spicher as someone who "has been in close communication with Terri [and] has been providing Terri with support and advice that is not in the best interests of our son."

The statement also described Spicher as uncooperative in the investigation and "going as far as to suggest to others that may have information regarding Kyron's disappearance not to cooperate as well."

Stavley disputed those comments Monday, saying Spicher has been "extremely cooperative" with police as they executed search warrants on her home and car. He said she also met with the lead investigator in the case last week for more than three hours.

He added that Spicher is not speaking to Terri Horman.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/07/26/oregon.missing.boy/index.html?npt=NP1

[Scandi]

what I am wondering is this... if they have to have a fed grand jury if this involves another state, then we will know there is something going on in another state?  or at least something federal..

but if they are across state line do they HAVE to use a fed grand jury?  or can they still us a state one?  that is my question.. I guess I will have to go look this up and see.. just wondered if anyone else knows...

remember portland is really the same place as van couver washington, you just cross the river/state line... its right there.  so would be easy to be across the state line and everything become federal. 

And that is what I'm trying to fit in that time line, the one where she was driving around while soothing the baby, but don't think that would be enough time to cross into Washington state, or would there be time to do so?

portland is at the edge of the columbian river.  on portland's side of the river is oregon, the other side of the river is washington.  just a matter of crossing the bridge, which takes no time at all.

  Hi Wycks ;}  Trouble is to cross that bridge one would have to travel thru Portland to get to it :  the closest from SI by going over the St John's Bridge off Hwy 30 to N Portland and over to I-5 to the Interstate bridge.  Actually quite a trek depending on the time of day.

BTW just out of interest, Vancouver Lake is one huge shallow mud hole.  LOLOL  When first married we used to go there to fish for Catfish.  xox

[ospainter]

DD I don't expect you to be able to answer, but the hypothetical about Terri being across state lines is very interesting.

 yes, the "hypothetical" is very interesting... could it mean a fed grand jury? or can it still be a state grand jury..

IANAL, but it sounds to me if a crime occurred across state lines, as in a kidnapping or murder, then it would be a federal crime and require a federal grand jury.

Found this: (at http://campus.udayton.edu/~grandjur/stategj/funcsgj.htm)

Grand juries in other states, including Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, California, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Nebraska, Nevada, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia and West Virginia, can investigate any activity that appears to violate the criminal law of their state as long as the activity in question occurs within their venue, which is usually the county in which the grand jury sits. The third category is composed of state grand juries that investigate certain kinds of criminal activity, which often involves drug crimes or organized crime. These grand juries, which are known as "special grand juries," "statewide grand juries," "state grand juries" or "multicounty grand juries," usually sit in addition to the more conventional grand juries that are usually convened in these states.

Sooo... Hypothetically thinking here: Say terri took Kyron from school & raced across Sauvie Island right into Vancouver Washington (which she's familiar apparently with Vancouver), it would be an incredibly short trip, tons of places to hide a body. Maybe the taking of Kyron from the school wasn;t a crime, driving to Washington wouldn;t be a crime, but harming Kyron in Washington would be a crime & subject to it's penalties & legal system. How would that work? Jess, Brandi, anyone with legalese know? If a subject is taken but not harmed until crossing state lines, how does the jmatter of jurisdiction work? Would they have to find the body or some sort of evidence (dna) before charging? Maybe that's one of the reasons Terri is biding her time by keeping her mouth shut? I have absolutely no idea, only wondering. Directly across Sauvie Island is Vancouver. There's a big lake there. Has it been searched even just a little bit?

This might help:

The case has to be tried where the crime (murder) occured

here is what I mean, this case was overturned in 05 due to crime occurring in PA and tried in MD.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/06/AR2005050601721.html

The Boundaries of Justice
A Confession. A Life Sentence. Now, a Court's Mistake May Set a Child Abuser Free.

Thankfully LE did not include other charges and tried him after case was overturned and he is in prison again. We fought hard to keep him locked up waiting for trial.

It was a horrific crime..

OS

[Brandi]

Commercial. My notes so far:

Kyron began living with Kaine ~age 2.

Spending weekends and holidays with Desiree in Medford.

Science and Math are his fave subjects.

He loves school and riding on the bus with other kids.

They have many trips planned for the summer: camping trips, a trip to California and a houseboat reserved for a vacation in August.

That's all I noted so far.

Great graphics too .. wish my print screen key worked on my TV. LOL

[yuknomenot]

what I am wondering is this... if they have to have a fed grand jury if this involves another state, then we will know there is something going on in another state?  or at least something federal..

but if they are across state line do they HAVE to use a fed grand jury?  or can they still us a state one?  that is my question.. I guess I will have to go look this up and see.. just wondered if anyone else knows...

remember portland is really the same place as van couver washington, you just cross the river/state line... its right there.  so would be easy to be across the state line and everything become federal. 

This may have been said already, I am behind.  I don't know about the grand jury, but my metropolitan area straddles 2 states.  It isn't uncommon for the FBI to get involved in a case in either state.  I guess what I am doing a bad job at saying is, just because the FBI is involved it doesn't mean there will be a Federal GJ. 

[cookie]

watching Dateline right now...heartbreaking for these parents...

[klaasend]

I believe DeDe is cooperating.  Her cousin said she would and her father would make sure she would.