Kyron Horman, 7 years old PORTLAND, OR #10 7/25/10 - 7/27/10

[ospainter]

anitakissee tweeted
 
Just learned WHY DeDe Spicher answered no questions in front of the grand jury today... and why her attorney wasn't even allowed in.

ME: hope we find out before midnite...

I didn't think attorneys were allowed in the GJ proceedings anyway.....
Maybe DeDe's trying to negotiate a deal for immunity.

Where is Kyron??

They are not allowed as far as I know.

I am thinking immunity also can't think of any other reason for going to GJ and either not being asked questions or not answering questions ask. Makes no sense to me.

guess time will tell.

OS

Why?

 

Janet

No defense is ever offered in a GJ, maybe Jess can explain it.

It's all prosecution in a GJ.

OS

OS,

I must have missed something. What school are you talking about? Where are you??

I am sorry but I don't know what you mean? School, I am in MD.

LOL I am confused..

OS

[Claycat]

Thank you for the Dateline notes, Brandi!  I appreciate it!   

[Brandi]

OS:

heh ... I am confused too.

But nice to see ya, neighbor. I am in VA.

LOL

Sorry for the confusion. Been a long day.

 

[txlisa]

Desiree pleaded with Terri to tell her what happened to Kyron.  Tried to reason with her mother-mother.  It is sad, but you cannot reason with a narcissistic psychopath.  I feel so bad for Desiree, Typhoid Terri does her part to wreck her marriage and then does something awful to her son.

[Brandi]

Thank you for the Dateline notes, Brandi!  I appreciate it!   

You are very welcome.

I felt so bad for Desiree. She was in tears quite a few times. She is really hurting.

 

[JessStar]

anitakissee tweeted
 
Just learned WHY DeDe Spicher answered no questions in front of the grand jury today... and why her attorney wasn't even allowed in.

ME: hope we find out before midnite...

I didn't think attorneys were allowed in the GJ proceedings anyway.....
Maybe DeDe's trying to negotiate a deal for immunity.

Where is Kyron??

They are not allowed as far as I know.

I am thinking immunity also can't think of any other reason for going to GJ and either not being asked questions or not answering questions ask. Makes no sense to me.

guess time will tell.

OS

Why?

 

Janet

No defense is ever offered in a GJ, maybe Jess can explain it.

It's all prosecution in a GJ.

OS

The purpose of the Grand Jury proceeding is really to provide a check-and-balance between the police and the citizens they are charged with protecting.  In other words, the Grand Jury's job is to essentially protect the citizens against overzealous prosecutors.

OS is right-no defense is ever presented in a GJ proceeding UNLESS the prosecution decides to offer it.  The purpose of the proceeding is to test the strength of the evidence of guilt, and to determine whether sufficient evidence exists to create a triable issue of fact, that is, a jury question.  In making that determination, the Grand Jury is to take the evidence as presented as uncontradicted, and to decide whether, if everything they've heard is true, has a crime been committed.

No defense is presented because the grand jury isn't charged with determining guilt.  They're job is merely to test the evidence to determine whether there's sufficient evidence of a triable crime.

Does that make sense?

[Tamikosmom]

Brandi and Cookie

Thanks for the overview.

I have to wait another two hours to watch the special.  I will never understand the time zones.

Janet
8:15 PM PT
 

[doubledecker]

Well there you have it--I've been humbled!     So there is an Investigative Grand Jury empaneled.  Very interesting.  LE must have A LOT more than what we can even imagine to go that route. 

Nice word DD--you indeed have a reliable source!

thanks jess, but I am still with you on this, was very unusual for this to happen...

now let me run this one by you, as this one I am wondering about also...

let's just say this as a hypothetical...

say terri was not on sauvie, lets say she was somewhere else and it was across the state line. 

could we have a fed grand jury rather than a state one?  or can a state one handle both states?

what is your thought on this?

Great question, DD.  The answer is, without having more facts, I don't know, as the answer depends on a very detailed factual analysis of where the crime or crimes occurred.  Kidnapping is a federal crime if the kidnapping crosses state lines.  So if SM kidnapped Kyron and took him across state lines and did something to him, then yes, you can have a federal crime.  I don't know what the law is in Oregon, but in some states, a parent or custodian can kidnap his/her own child if the kidnapping is perpetuated through false pretenses.  (for example, "Come with me, son--we're going to go to CITY X to get an ice cream" but instead, parent takes son across state lines and kills him).  It's impossible for murder to cross state lines so murder can't be a federal crime (unless the murder has a federal component--think Timothy McVey). There's a possibility that the MFH plot can be a federal crime if "the wires" or mail were used to perpetrate it.  Those are just a few examples.  The analysis is very complex and factually detailed.  I couldn't even begin to answer it without knowing more.

thanks jess... I was just wondering if she did happen to be over on the washington side if is would consitute federal, and being that the grand jury is county grand jury, would that rule her out being over in washington side... however, then again, like you said, would depend i guess, as there could be one crime on one side and another crime on the other...

reason I am wondering though, is she might have crossed over to van couver... hmmmm oh well guess have to wait to figure out this part... I trying to figure out if she did cross over into washington side or not and trying to use this thought as a way to tell ... guess I cant tell this way..

[Tamikosmom]

Thanks JessStar and OS.

I think it is all beginning to sink in.

Janet

[Claycat]

Thank you for the Dateline notes, Brandi!  I appreciate it!   

You are very welcome.

I felt so bad for Desiree. She was in tears quite a few times. She is really hurting.

 

He was her baby boy!  Being the mother of a son myself, I am in horror just thinking of what she is going through.  Bless her!   

[Scatty]

This may have already been covered before, but this question came to me after JessStar mentioned something about Feds and crimes across "wire". Made me think of cell phones and sexting. If TH did pull something similar (sexting)with LS before she tried it on MC (whom I think she was cultivating to kidnap Kiara), would LE be able to pull that info from TH's and LS's cell phone records? Would LE have to be in posession of the actual phones?

[ospainter]

anitakissee tweeted
 
Just learned WHY DeDe Spicher answered no questions in front of the grand jury today... and why her attorney wasn't even allowed in.

ME: hope we find out before midnite...

I didn't think attorneys were allowed in the GJ proceedings anyway.....
Maybe DeDe's trying to negotiate a deal for immunity.

Where is Kyron??

They are not allowed as far as I know.

I am thinking immunity also can't think of any other reason for going to GJ and either not being asked questions or not answering questions ask. Makes no sense to me.

guess time will tell.

OS

Why?

 

Janet

No defense is ever offered in a GJ, maybe Jess can explain it.

It's all prosecution in a GJ.

OS

OS,

I must have missed something. What school are you talking about? Where are you??

Sorry I see what you are asking, I am talking about Skyline School where Kyron went missing from.

I just need some concise answers to be able to come out and say that TH is 100% responsible for the disappearance of Kyron.

I am getting there through the back door and I don't like to do it that way. I like to go from A to B to C. This case doesn't allow for that so far.

So TH needs to start talking or LE, someone needs to take me from A to B before I say someone is guilty, but that's just me. I can see what everyone is saying I honestly can and believe they are most likely right but I want to feel it in my gut and I haven't yet.

Like in the HaLeigh case, I could see with Misty's ever changing stories that she is involved directly or indirectly. kwim? No doubt in my mind.

Maybe after the presser tomorrow I can get there. dunno.

That's why I say I am still at the school.

OS

[tnmomb]

DeDe did not testify long, and if she did nothing wrong except being friends with Terri, I sure hope she can get her reputation back. Once things like this are out there, and you have done no wrong, it is sad if someone's life is ruined.

I think one of the biggest challenges in a case where so few facts are released by LE, is that many are so eager to react, point fingers and make disparaging remarks on people's weight and other attributes. Although I am a woman, I have felt far more like Mars than Venus, but that is because I try hard to keep emotion out of my discussion and try to find reason and fact and theorize. Many are here to chastise others exclusively. I can't see the benefit any longer of individuals with no knowledge on criminology, psychology and legal procedures helping. Let that not be taken to mean there aren't individuals with very good skills here, but they are the few. I love to see real theories, but cannot find a value in so many saying "in my opinion" such and such happened. There's a saying about opinions, kind of brash, but I wonder why so many think anyone really cares. My care is of fact and solid theories. This particular board has digressed to a public bitch session by the vast majority.
New fact about the case: Former Captain speaks about Terri not being able to account for her whereabouts for 1 1/2 hrs the morning Kyron went missing, stating she was driving around with Kiara who had an earache, whom she was trying to get to sleep during the drive.  What did Terri do immediately after that 1 1/2 hr and why?

 You wrote  "many are so eager to react, point fingers and make disparaging remarks" . You also wrote "Let that not be taken to mean there aren't individuals with very good skills here, but they are the few". 

I for one care more about good communication skills then people's CSI skills here. In saying that I don't agree with you.
When you swrote "pointing fingers and making disparaging remarks" you sound very accusatory as nobody really knows what anyone's intention are, we can only say how someone is coming off in our opinion. It's subjective.

How good skills (not to mention good manners) would sound to me would be "you seem"...or "you sound"...or "I feel"...

Let me give you an example;
"You seem judgmental and arrogant". If you don't mean to come off that way, let me assure you "You sound that way to me"...JMO

[ospainter]

OS:

heh ... I am confused too.

But nice to see ya, neighbor. I am in VA.

LOL

Sorry for the confusion. Been a long day.

 

I am in the mountains of MD.

yea we are neighbors..cool

my brain is just about done for today..it only allows me so many hrs a day and I have reached my limit..

OS

[ospainter]

anitakissee tweeted
 
Just learned WHY DeDe Spicher answered no questions in front of the grand jury today... and why her attorney wasn't even allowed in.

ME: hope we find out before midnite...

I didn't think attorneys were allowed in the GJ proceedings anyway.....
Maybe DeDe's trying to negotiate a deal for immunity.

Where is Kyron??

They are not allowed as far as I know.

I am thinking immunity also can't think of any other reason for going to GJ and either not being asked questions or not answering questions ask. Makes no sense to me.

guess time will tell.

OS

Why?

 

Janet

No defense is ever offered in a GJ, maybe Jess can explain it.

It's all prosecution in a GJ.

OS

The purpose of the Grand Jury proceeding is really to provide a check-and-balance between the police and the citizens they are charged with protecting.  In other words, the Grand Jury's job is to essentially protect the citizens against overzealous prosecutors.

OS is right-no defense is ever presented in a GJ proceeding UNLESS the prosecution decides to offer it.  The purpose of the proceeding is to test the strength of the evidence of guilt, and to determine whether sufficient evidence exists to create a triable issue of fact, that is, a jury question.  In making that determination, the Grand Jury is to take the evidence as presented as uncontradicted, and to decide whether, if everything they've heard is true, has a crime been committed.

No defense is presented because the grand jury isn't charged with determining guilt.  They're job is merely to test the evidence to determine whether there's sufficient evidence of a triable crime.

Does that make sense?

TY, TY for explaining that so well.

OS

[Gypsy DD]

Years ago I worked in a place, GA would come in quite often.This was years and years ago, before she was famous and had money.  I have spoken to her, very interesting woman. she was very much into civil rights and womans rights. She is abrasive and all but I consider her to be a very good advocate and lawyer. I don't always agree with her on certain things but she gets the job done.

I can understand why she would not take this case...She is usually with who she considers to be the underdog, I am sure she would see Kyron in that role.

I am just catching up here tonight..but ITA Tracygirl.

[can]

Desiree's evident grief is gut wrenching.

Found Tony to be very credible and clear headed. 

Desiree said when she learned that Kyron was missing she called Terri to say they would be in Portland in about 4 1/2 hours.  Terri said oh? . . .as though she was surprised that she would be coming.

Desiree wanted to attend the science fair - but had to work that day.  She feels guilt over this, and the fact that she wasn't there that day to protect her son.

[Brandi]

snipped
Sorry I see what you are asking, I am talking about Skyline School where Kyron went missing from.

I just need some concise answers to be able to come out and say that TH is 100% responsible for the disappearance of Kyron.

I am getting there through the back door and I don't like to do it that way. I like to go from A to B to C. This case doesn't allow for that so far.

So TH needs to start talking or LE, someone needs to take me from A to B before I say someone is guilty, but that's just me. I can see what everyone is saying I honestly can and believe they are most likely right but I want to feel it in my gut and I haven't yet.

Like in the HaLeigh case, I could see with Misty's ever changing stories that she is involved directly or indirectly. kwim? No doubt in my mind.

Maybe after the presser tomorrow I can get there. dunno.

That's why I say I am still at the school.

OS

Well, it didn't help that I quoted the wrong quotestack. LOL

I thought you meant literally you were at Skyline school waiting for answers from LE.

Silly me.

Again, I apologize for the confusion I created.

[can]

JessStar - thank you for your explanation on purpose of GJ.  Very understandable to this layperson.   

[can]

I didn't learn anything on dateline tonight that would lead me to believe that Kyron is alive and being held somewhere.  Apart from the hope that parents of missing children hang on to.  So sad.