Kyron Horman, 7 years old PORTLAND, OR #12 7/29/10 - 8/02/10

[Claycat]

Well, I don't know what to think of this, but I will put it out here for you.  I was in the shower, and I was thinking about Kyron.  Looking at all these photos made me sad.  I said,  "I'm sorry, Kyron.  Poor little guy!"  I got an image of his face, pale and scared.  He was shaking his head and shaking his finger back and forth like no, no, no.  I got words something like, "I didn't take the ring!  I didn't hide the ring!"  I think it was a ring because he touched his finger, and I got an image of a circular object.  Maybe it's nothing...  I don't know.

I hate it when you all do that (not literally), it sends chills down back, and right before bedtime....  I can't imagine having that happen to me seeing things.  I do believe in that so this isn't making fun or anything like that.

I understand.  Oddly enough, it isn't too disturbing.  I get a lot more emotional when I look at photos of his cute little smiling face.  He was so vulnerable! 

Someone said Kaine thought of him as a mini-me.  If he acted a lot like his father, it would explain Terri's growing dislike for Kyron.  It almost seems he became the scapegoat. 

[Blonde]

Sorry if this has already been posted but I never saw this  before.

Kyron Horman's Father Says 'Small' Chance of Wife Being Innocent
Kaine Horman Says Estranged Wife Became Erratic After the Birth of Couple's Daughter
July 9, 2010

Article and video: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/kyron-horm...ry?id=11124144

The father of missing Oregon second-grader Kyron Horman said there is little doubt that his estranged wife had something to do with his son's disappearance.

"I think the percentages are so small that I have no optimism in that regard, no," Kaine Horman said when asked if there was any chance his wife, Terri Horman, was innocent.

Kaine Horman said he feels betrayed. "I think we all do," Young added.

Young said she would hope Terri Horman would decide to give in and start talking.

"I would like to think not, because my son is involved. But I have the feeling that she will never ever give in," she said.

" I don't think she is going to tell the truth," Kaine Horman said.

"She hasn't told the truth for seven and a half years that I have known her," Young said.

[Blonde]

So why would it matter if Terri took the truck vs the mustang if she was going to disappear Kyron? So much has been made about the white truck and terri had asked to use the truck rather then the mustang. She could have placed kryon in the mustang just as easily as the truck.
The only think I can come up with is someone else has a white truck and they were doing a switch such as someone was pretending to be somewhere as terri.

Yes it would have been just as easy to take the mustang , they could have stop somewhere in the woods and just drop him off alive.
She could have said they were looking for frogs and he got lost and she looked for a while ( but didn't.)
  Not telling anyone this location would ensure his death because could's do it herself..
If she just said we got split up in the woods they might find him alive so she just didn't say anything.

 IMO, THIS WAY SHE DIDN'T REALY, IN HER MIND KILL HIM. SHE LOST HIM & GOT SCARED.

[newfie]

Good Morning all... Happy Friday.  There are some great discussions here re: personality and mental illnesses.  The difference with mental illness and personality disorders vary greatly. I was a job coach, trainer in day support program, and group home years ago for people with MR/MH diagnosis.  The folks ranged from schizophrenia to bi-polar. What I realized when working with this population is that regardless of the illness the majority knew right from wrong. Of course they took medications to control the behaviors. The people that had severe mania would have an outburst and hurt someone or tear things apart, and would feel bad the next day. Those that leaned towards sociopathy would manipulate to try and get their way and constantly lie, never feeling bad about their behaviors. They always made excuses or blamed someone else. They felt entitled. I personally,( and I am no expert) feel Terri falls in the category whereas, she does not feel bad and is a manipulator and liar. I feel it took many of us awhile to get here with her, Casey seemed much easier to pinpoint by all of us. Terri has had many more years of mastering her lying and manipulating. People that knew her propbably picked up on things from time to time but excused it. I think Terri's bio parents may have some underlying issues. Who knows? Terri's bio parents may be murderers, I wonder if Terri knows her real parents are and what they are about?
I believe ,and this is all just observation and opinion that Terri's adoptive parents are decent people.  When it comes to nurture verses nature, I think this is nature.

[marycat]

Is anyone else having trouble getting into the MCSO site for booking info? I tried last night after midnight and it hadn't been updated, then this morning I can't pull up the site at all. I have it bookmarked and am using the same way to open it as I always have and also tried going there using info data from MCSO home page. This is the error:

Server Error in '/PAID' Application.
Configuration Error

[no rose colored glasses]

Thank-you for posting all the pictures on FB of the family. While they do look happy posing for pictures with smiles on their faces, anyone can pretend and put a smile on their face for a photo. Means nothing to me, nobody knows what was all happening behind the scenes in the home, except for the family.

[klaasend]

Is anyone else having trouble getting into the MCSO site for booking info? I tried last night after midnight and it hadn't been updated, then this morning I can't pull up the site at all. I have it bookmarked and am using the same way to open it as I always have and also tried going there using info data from MCSO home page. This is the error:

Server Error in '/PAID' Application.
Configuration Error

Yes, I'm getting the same error this morning but it was working fine last night for me.

[newfie]

Thank-you for posting all the pictures on FB of the family. While they do look happy posing for pictures with smiles on their faces, anyone can pretend and put a smile on their face for a photo. Means nothing to me, nobody knows what was all happening behind the scenes in the home, except for the family.

I agree Norose, their are alot of smiling faces that are in pain, or masking the true feelings. Rarely do we get a glimpse of someone sad or in anguish when it comes to photos.

[klaasend]

Is anyone else having trouble getting into the MCSO site for booking info? I tried last night after midnight and it hadn't been updated, then this morning I can't pull up the site at all. I have it bookmarked and am using the same way to open it as I always have and also tried going there using info data from MCSO home page. This is the error:

Server Error in '/PAID' Application.
Configuration Error

Yes, I'm getting the same error this morning but it was working fine last night for me.

The main page works http://www.mcso.us/public/ , it's just the two online information sites that don't. 

Civil Process
http://www.mcso.us/PAID/CivilPapersStatus.aspx

Inmate Data
http://www.mcso.us/PAID/Default.aspx

[no rose colored glasses]

Thank-you for posting all the pictures on FB of the family. While they do look happy posing for pictures with smiles on their faces, anyone can pretend and put a smile on their face for a photo. Means nothing to me, nobody knows what was all happening behind the scenes in the home, except for the family.

I agree Norose, their are alot of smiling faces that are in pain, or masking the true feelings. Rarely do we get a glimpse of someone sad or in anguish when it comes to photos.

Very true, to bad we don't get a glimpse of someone in anguish in a photo.

[theboyzmom]

Good Morning all... Happy Friday.  There are some great discussions here re: personality and mental illnesses.  The difference with mental illness and personality disorders vary greatly. I was a job coach, trainer in day support program, and group home years ago for people with MR/MH diagnosis.  The folks ranged from schizophrenia to bi-polar. What I realized when working with this population is that regardless of the illness the majority knew right from wrong. Of course they took medications to control the behaviors. The people that had severe mania would have an outburst and hurt someone or tear things apart, and would feel bad the next day. Those that leaned towards sociopathy would manipulate to try and get their way and constantly lie, never feeling bad about their behaviors. They always made excuses or blamed someone else. They felt entitled. I personally,( and I am no expert) feel Terri falls in the category whereas, she does not feel bad and is a manipulator and liar. I feel it took many of us awhile to get here with her, Casey seemed much easier to pinpoint by all of us. Terri has had many more years of mastering her lying and manipulating. People that knew her propbably picked up on things from time to time but excused it. I think Terri's bio parents may have some underlying issues. Who knows? Terri's bio parents may be murderers, I wonder if Terri knows her real parents are and what they are about?
I believe ,and this is all just observation and opinion that Terri's adoptive parents are decent people.  When it comes to nurture verses nature, I think this is nature.

I totally agree - I know the psychopath I have in my life never feels bad about what he does - he does feel bad when he gets CAUGHT - which is totally different. He always has a "reason" why he did things - which always sounds good until you think about it. Everything is because of what he wants - people are tools to be used until there is no more use for them - then you dispose of them like any other used up thing taking up space in your life. They are scary creatures - mostly because they can fool even the smartest person for a time -and then feel no remorse for having used you.

[Scatty]

anitakissee
 
For the SMs: Yes, I know what I post here is public. I stand by my statement as an observation & legitimate question, which no one answered 12 minutes ago via Echofon

SMs: & the comment/question in question was intended for a specific group. If I wanted it posted elsewhere, I would put here, on fb or there     11 minutes ago  via Echofon 

http://twitter.com/anitakissee

 

Well! All I can say about that is 

[Scatty]

Good Morning all... Happy Friday.  There are some great discussions here re: personality and mental illnesses.  The difference with mental illness and personality disorders vary greatly. I was a job coach, trainer in day support program, and group home years ago for people with MR/MH diagnosis.  The folks ranged from schizophrenia to bi-polar. What I realized when working with this population is that regardless of the illness the majority knew right from wrong. Of course they took medications to control the behaviors. The people that had severe mania would have an outburst and hurt someone or tear things apart, and would feel bad the next day. Those that leaned towards sociopathy would manipulate to try and get their way and constantly lie, never feeling bad about their behaviors. They always made excuses or blamed someone else. They felt entitled. I personally,( and I am no expert) feel Terri falls in the category whereas, she does not feel bad and is a manipulator and liar. I feel it took many of us awhile to get here with her, Casey seemed much easier to pinpoint by all of us. Terri has had many more years of mastering her lying and manipulating. People that knew her propbably picked up on things from time to time but excused it. I think Terri's bio parents may have some underlying issues. Who knows? Terri's bio parents may be murderers, I wonder if Terri knows her real parents are and what they are about?
I believe ,and this is all just observation and opinion that Terri's adoptive parents are decent people.  When it comes to nurture verses nature, I think this is nature.

Excellent post Newfie! I feel the same way about Terri and wondered about her bio parents too.

[Gypsy DD]

Borderline Personality Disorder Made Me Kill My Child
article at bottom of page.


Please give my post a read if you are still interested in TH pathology diagnose and motive I have been watching your posts about TH’s pathology for a while. I posted something at one point but no response. So I obsessed and researched further, picked 2 psychotherapists brain and would like to share my findings and theory.
I hope you find this interesting and maybe even helpful.

My theory about motive (which several of you have hit on ) will even make more sense if you are familiar with Borderline Personality Disorder or BPD. (links and snippets below)
I believe TH is classic Borderline with Histrionic features. Many of you who have thought/asked if she is a narcissist or sociopath…well…yes and no (IMO)

I checked in with my 2 psychotherapists friends one is a Dr. who specializes in the pathology  of “what makes a serial killer” (she has been the only  person to interview Richard Ramirez “Night Stalker”). When I asked them what their diagnose of TH was they both (separately) said Borderline Personality Disorder
This is the way it was explained to me.
If  Sociopathy had a sister it would be Borderline Personality . Most, not all, Sociopaths are men Borderlines are almost always women. Narcissism is quite pronounced in the borderline personality.

If I go with this diagnose her motive makes more sense to me.

Ok…using most of the alleged facts and accusations ….

Let's say Kaine did have an affair on TH, like he did on Desiree. Both affairs happened right around the pregnancy/ birth with both wives. So he is “allergic” to the moods of women with raging hormones. (if you read what BPD does to loved ones you may get even a clearer/different  picture in TH’s case …no justification here I promise what could have been going on in that home)

Terry realizing that he left Desiree for her would automatically think he would do it again and leave her too for someone new (and better in her mind) ( someone with BPD’s main fear is abandonment real or imagined)

As Kaine stated; they go to counseling. Supposedly get back on track... but here is where TH having BPD comes in a very deceiving way People with BPD are victims. They will act calm and ok while planning revenge on real or imagined wrongs committed on them. They will NOT stop until they get revenge.

At first she goes after Kaine (MFH) then realizes the “real and EVEN “(very important to BPD) way to make him pay is to make him live with the hurt she that has been inflicted on her (classic BPD blaming others). Since in her mind he was going to “abandon her and Kiara” and take Kyron after all she has done for them (BPD victim mentality) then she will do the worst thing she can think of and take (kill in my very sad opinion) Kyron away. (“They often feel victimized and will turn into a vicious persecutor at the drop of the hat)”

Oh and BTW this will take care of her hatred and revenge on Desiree to for making her raise Kyron yet not be the real mother (another BPD trait get identity through the care of others…but look out if you screw with them!)

So far this has been the only thing that makes sense as to why she picked on Kyron when she was supposed to be his mother...this is what Borderlines do some more extreme than others. Please read further.

(See link to informative site, but if you google it tons of sites will come up)
I highly recommend reading this if you want to see how she fits this profile.

http://www.bpdcentral.com/resources/mediakit/definition.shtml

snips from different site links;

"For someone with BPD, the potential loss of a relationship can be like facing the loss of an arm or leg — or even death. When their fears of abandonment seem to be confirmed, they may erupt into a rage, make accusations, sob, seek revenge, mutilate themselves, have an affair, or do any number of destructive things."

“It is very common for those who are non-personality disordered to be very confused by this alternating punishment/revenge/rage/anger/silent treatment and then “okayness” or calmness and relative civility. It leaves loved ones exhausted, feeling lost to themselves often, frustrated, hurt, and in some cases feeling like maybe they are losing their minds. Many wonder if the person in their lives with BPD is actually two or more people because the attitudes and behavior displayed in the all-bad side of the splitting cycle are so mean, cruel, often abusive, and so unlike who they thought their loved one was or who they still hope the loved one really is.”

Individuals with borderline personality can sometimes lapse into psychotic thinking when feeling hurt and rejected enough.
Borderline personality-disordered individuals can lapse into a kind of transient sociopathy.

Article;
Borderline Personality Disorder Made Me Kill My Child
Read more: http://socyberty.com/psychology/borderline-personality-disorder-made-me-kill-my-child/#ixzz0v8th1L9z
I find it hard to believe any mother would stoop to killing their child.  Apparently people diagnosed with borderline personality disorder have violent anger streaks.  They also will plan revenge for a long time with people they are angry with.  A person diagnosed with this disorder may seem normal until they get mad but when they do their anger is out of control.  Today on the news there was a story of a lady that called 911 cool and collect like it was no big deal telling the dispatcher she killed her children.  She then went on to describe where she is located and even urges the operator to get the ambulance there asap.  One of her children she reveals is still alive but bleeding to death.  This women sounds cool and worry free through the entire conversation until the ambulance arrives.  Once the ambulance arrives she asks the operator to tell the workers not to shoot her.   It appears this women was more concerned about what will happen to her then her own two daughters she just stabbed.  It also seemed as if she was trying to get back at her ex husband for divorcing her.  What do you think about stories like this.  Does her borderline  personality disorder diagnosis get her off the hook?  I can’t imagine any mother doing this to their child in there right mind.  On the other hand people do some pretty horrendous things for revenge.  Was this lately simply trying to get back at her husband? Was she upset because her two daughters wanted to stay with her dad?

BUMPING

Excellent post

[akmom]

So why would it matter if Terri took the truck vs the mustang if she was going to disappear Kyron? So much has been made about the white truck and terri had asked to use the truck rather then the mustang. She could have placed kryon in the mustang just as easily as the truck.
The only think I can come up with is someone else has a white truck and they were doing a switch such as someone was pretending to be somewhere as terri.

Yes it would have been just as easy to take the mustang , they could have stop somewhere in the woods and just drop him off alive.
She could have said they were looking for frogs and he got lost and she looked for a while ( but didn't.)
  Not telling anyone this location would ensure his death because could's do it herself..
If she just said we got split up in the woods they might find him alive so she just didn't say anything.

 IMO, THIS WAY SHE DIDN'T REALY, IN HER MIND KILL HIM. SHE LOST HIM & GOT SCARED.

Blonde, I am leaning toward this too. 

[Titch]

Klaas, Now I'm confused. Anita tweeted this a little while ago:

http://twitter.com/anitakissee
Put yourself in others' shoes: Would U want to B drug through mud & your prosperity threatened simply because of acquaintances? Neighbors?
about 6 hours ago via Echofon

Me: It's confused me a bit bc I know the only thing I brought over was who is who in that family. I informed Scared Monkeys & Blink that Anita interviewed their family and I then put out the correct info so it could be corrected on all of our ends. Anita set the story straight with regards to their family names & relations, etc. I cannot speak for Anita but I do think it's bc of the article stating where Brian was living, then the ripple effect of people wondering who could be involved vs not. When his son was put on tv for that interview, people all over the world jumped on the fact that he said his father was watching the news & heard that Kyron was missing, so he said something to his son. Then we went through all kinds of stuff, putting together some kind of timeline, etc...some of which has now been thrown out - including his a/c of (time) when he last saw Kyron. The information wasn't corrected in Blink's article and I think people at the KHOD wanted it corrected. But I don't understand why she should have to do that bc all of the corrected information is in the comments section of the online article. It was all a brainstorming session basically, and placed on a blog.

Anita, if you happen to read here: Blink, Klaas and all of us here have such huge hearts for these victims of injustice. Please take a look at all of the info here regarding Natalee Holloway's disappearance. That will definitely show the wide range of people that post here, everyone's huge hearts, several intelligent people, etc. You are correct in the fact that people can be brought into the mix of something bad simply by being an acquaintance to a poi in a criminal matter. I, for one, happen to think that's how DeDe was brought into this particular case. It's my personal opinion that she's innocent of any wrong doing & her advice to her friend Terri was nothing less than educated as she happens to be a cop's daughter and she believes/d in Terri's innocence. With regards to your Pumala post, it was very informative & corrected alot of things. I brought over some of it to set the story straight. I apologize if you didn't want it taken to another site, but I don't understand why that would be a bad thing bc it corrected the misinformation put out there prior. Anita, you are highly esteemed, an incredible journalist...your awards & education speak miles...so you should be able to see how wonderful these two sites can be. Please, if you ever get a chance, take a gander - not just this case, but many others. I highly suggest starting with the Natalee Holloway forum. The technical information alone is enough to write a best selling book. Some of us have different perspectives. Some of us have different levels of knowledge with regard to our majors or areas of intelligence based on our careers or familial backgrounds. However, ALL of us have incredibly HUGE hearts. There's a missing child out there somewhere. I personally think he's deceased, but there are many people that think otherwise. I, for one, hope they're right - would LOVE to hear Ky's found alive! I'm sorry you were offended that your informative post was brought over. As soon as I saw it, I hurried to supply it so that the information could be corrected. It's completely corrected in the comments from everything that I saw. I even changed my opinion, and sooo many other people did too. Maybe you're referring to other posters as well? Idk...I can only speak for myself. Instead of just looking at one portion, please read through the whole thing to see the bigger picture. mI can't speak for everyone else, but I in no way shape or form believe Brian is involved in this. Nothing even points to him. Tons of people went on a tangent, myself included, when his son was placed in the media spotlight. Alot of information was misleading that even his son provided...misleading bc of time lapse, etc. The police didn't release alot of info, so alot of people took his son's account as factual. His grandmother was quoted as saying the police &/or fbi didn't want him giving interviews but she put him out there anyway. I understand she just wanted to help find this dear sweet boy, she has a good heart, etc. But the fact remains that some of this information her grandson has/d could have been used for all we know...then he put it in the national spotlight by doing that interview. It's like a catch 22 - damned if you do & damned if you don't. I am asking you, from the bottom of my heart, to please reconsider Klaas & Blink. These people are good caring people. Your information was copy & pasted by a multitude of people, not just myself, and placed all over the worldwide web. There are much more harsh things people have said posted elsewhere, I mean really harsh stuff. The comments section of Oregon Live is enough to make somebody wanna throw a keyboard & punch a monitor! But there are many other true crime forums that are just so way off base that it's ridiculous...and they have lawyers using their real names posting there! You'd think they'd know better, especially considering the info they put out is sometimes found to be erroneous & corrected...but not corrected by them - instead corrected by us the forum commenters. I just worry that you segregating SM & Blink might be just a little bit unfair. I mean this with all sincerity. Some of the very best journalists get it wrong sometimes...even you...it's how we all learn & grow. Instead of fighting against us, please consider brainstorming with us. Some of our posts are very informative and backed up with fact...not just hearsay. When we're dealing with legal docs, all of the time links are found to coincide with this information. Sometimes that can help a journalist from having to foot the bill pulling background checks & such. I'm asking you to please consider having an open mind and looking at these two sites from a different perspective. Please don't just glance over one tiny section. Please look at them as a whole & then determine if it's worth your time or not. For what it's worth (& I'm nobody to you so that really may not mean much), I think Blink is an incredible person. Her coverage of Caylee Anthony is amazing (several other's too)...also Morgan Harrington & Jennifer Kesse, so many more... Klaasend - same thing! Please reconsider your opinion. Anita, irregardless of what opinion you have on this matter, I still believe you're an incredible journalist & have an extremely bright future ahead of you...one in which has only just begun in the bigger scheme of things. I apologize for the longwindedness (is that even a word?).

Klaas, I'm very sorry for the off topic post. It was the last thing I thought about last night & the first thing I thought about when I awoke this morning. My last thought should have been about my children. My first thought this morning (since I decided to login here) should have been about Kyron. It's kind of defeating the purpose if any of us are on here & not posting about Kyron (or another victim). Again, Sorry for the ot & back on track now.

WHERE IS KYRON?

[Titch]

Thank-you for posting all the pictures on FB of the family. While they do look happy posing for pictures with smiles on their faces, anyone can pretend and put a smile on their face for a photo. Means nothing to me, nobody knows what was all happening behind the scenes in the home, except for the family.

Welcome 

[Blonde]

I found this on a different site
I was reading the comments and came across this: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/...0831264?ref=ts

If you go down to the status update about today's presser, in the comments, someone who lives in the area posted about a child she has seen living with a group of homeless people in the Portland area who strongly resembles Kyron. She states she called the tipline but nothing was done and the child is still in the same area with the same people. Read it, it is pretty interesting.

[marycat]

Is anyone else having trouble getting into the MCSO site for booking info? I tried last night after midnight and it hadn't been updated, then this morning I can't pull up the site at all. I have it bookmarked and am using the same way to open it as I always have and also tried going there using info data from MCSO home page. This is the error:

Server Error in '/PAID' Application.
Configuration Error

Yes, I'm getting the same error this morning but it was working fine last night for me.

The main page works http://www.mcso.us/public/ , it's just the two online information sites that don't. 

Civil Process
http://www.mcso.us/PAID/CivilPapersStatus.aspx

Inmate Data
http://www.mcso.us/PAID/Default.aspx

Thanks, Klaas. I could get the main page, but not the inmate booking data. Is it possible they have taken it offline on purpose? Because they have booked someone they don't want made public yet? I don't know that much about what computer errors mean. I am probably just being paranoid (or too hopeful). LOL

[klaasend]

Titch - I understand where you are coming from but I honestly don't care what Anita Kissee tweets.  Anita Kissee has a bit to learn about the internet.  She may or may not be a good reporter but she's naive if she thinks anything on the internet is private.

Now about DeDe, I'm inclined to believe DeDe was suckered into helping her friend.  It's very possible that DeDe has no actual knowledge what Terri did with Kyron.  It sounds like she is cooperating and I feel that her father will make sure of that.