Kyron Horman, 7 years old, PORTLAND, OR #18 8/11/10 - 8/13/10

[Grey]

Speaking of DY does anyone else find it so odd that she picked a day Kyron was to meet his mother for the weekend?  That one really sticks out to me.

Yeah. If planned, that was a vicious move.

[Wyks]

http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/news/topstories/story/Landscaper-Terri-allegedly-tried-to-hire-to-kill/DsZPsC9z3UujvXc6ZrUh-Q.cspx

LINK

You know, I have just a many thoughts of Terri being involved in Kyron going missing as most everyone else.  But, still, I have a problem with the LE/press in painting a picture for us that is so anti-Terri.

Words make a difference.  Simple example: open this link and the message from the press - According to retired Portland Police Capt. C.W. Jensen, the grand jury is looking at this “because it paints them a picture of Terri's character’.

Sounds like this GJ was formed to “only” look at Terri’s character.

Then the press makes a quote of what was actually said:  "What you are doing in a grand jury - in an investigative grand jury - is you are painting a picture of everyone and you want to have all four corners of the page and so that’s what you’re doing here," Jensen said.

Now, THAT makes much more sense of why a GJ is formed.  Not just to paint a picture of Terri, but to investigate everyone involved and have all for corners of the page (a well-rounded picture of what happened).  A well-rounded picture is the way to make appropriate conclusions.

Too late, most readers have already read that the GJ was formed to paint a picture of Terri and that’s what’s remembered.

I, too, think Terri is guilty of something…but I could be wrong. 

Whatever…Kyron is missing and I’m getting really concerned that some avenues could be overlooked when the public is being fed what they’re to believe.

EXACTLY, Puzzler!  Well said.  This is what I've tried saying before, didn't have the example of the GJ tho.  Some folks have seemed to overlook the sentence I've included, something to the effect that I do believe Terri had some involvement, to what degree I dunno.  Overlooking the mention of that, or negating that entirely with the rest of what I and others have posted, some to the point of calling me and other 'Terri supporters' and/or 'Kaine haters'.  And am like WTF???????????  Am the farthest thing from either!!!!!   

I do believe that we the public are being spoon-fed ad nauseum what LE/media/others WANT us to believe.  Sometimes it has been subtle, at other times not so subtle.  Am very glad that some are beginning to see this as well.  It just has me (not only still thinking that Terri has some degree of involvement).. but also looking at wth else seems to be going on in this case.   That's all I've ever tried doing.  And feel like I've been dragged thru the wringer, blamed, shamed, ridiculed for having done so.  No matter.  I still feel the same way.  And am glad that others are beginning to see some of it. 

   

[Tracygirl]

No signs of foul play? Clothing was found near the bones? Did she undress herself throw the cloths down into the revine and then jump? come on now...this case is nothing more then CYA, what happened to this woman should never had happened. I don't know if it is because she was african american, if she was mentally ill and didn't matter or if LE had their heads up their hinneys that night, but I find her release from jail, alone at night, no car or anyway but to walk miles, against her rights. I hope the parents sue the pants off of them all and then help to creat a new law. This is an outrage! imo.

Prayers to the family. May they some how find comfort in knowing their daughter is in a place of peace.

[amom2]

VERY good point, amom2!!  Thank you for reminding us of this.  I get so busy in cases at times, I forget that many in society aren't glued to what I find important.  Life has a way of keeping on, the sun rises, etc.  I still tend to scoot down the bench and look at folks sideways who say they've never even heard of Cindy Anthony, for example.      


And to think I used to wait til that certain hour every night to tune into 'Nancy Grace' to get the latest, breaking news.   How many folks are actually doing that, trusting that to be all the latest news there is? 

We need some monkey intervention groups to go out and save people from themselves and NG.   

IMO, of course. 

Hey, thanks Wyks - I know when I get caught up in something, I'm way too "there" and could use a rescue. My husband threatened to join a forum once, under the username "praying for clean underwear."  It usually works better for me when I find some ground inbetween obsesses and vaguely interested. Find out what's happening without the magnifying glass out every moment. Its just hard when this little guy is out there ... I'll never forget the case (what was her name ... Susan Smith ... and I just knew that if she had done ANYTHING at all, it wouldn't be murder. Couldn't be. But it was. I cried, and cried. Sometimes it doesn't pay to get so caught up in something you can do so little about. But I do.

[Wyks]

I am sorry, I should have snipped that, please don't tell a mod.

 

    

[seahorse]

d in texas & Monkey's,


Could SM apply for an Life Insurance Policy for Kyron, on her own?

A woman took out an Insurance Policy on her husband and he didn't know she had a IP on him!  (they were separated). 

It can be done without your knowledge a IP can be taken out. 

I think this can be done, but it depends on the individual state laws.

How would she pay for the insurance premiums without Kaine knowing?

Sorry, Grey, I was not clear. 

Could SM have taken an "Life-Insurance Policy" out on Kyron without Kaines approval or knowledge?  TIA


A woman I met took one out on her husband (claimed) he did not know. The Hubby left her after 28 years of marriage.

In don't know the life insurance laws in Oregon, so I don't know if she could. If she could, I bet LE has contacted the Oregon insurance companies.

Thank-you, Grey!

I will sniff around and see what I can glean. 

[seahorse]

Just for the sake of asking ..

Does anyone know if Terri adopted Kyron? legally ?  Or was Desiree paying child support for Kyron? to Kaine ?  I don't know how that works? Like say if Kyron needed Medical attention would Desiree override Terri? in the case of an emergency ? Was it not Desiree that was called when Kyron was missing/ call placed from the school. I'm confused. What would Terri be able to do without Desiree's approval ? Would not all " important" issues " Of Kyron"  have to be presented for Desiree's approval ..first? 
Hypothetical
Like if Terri wanted to take Kyron, out of state, for instance on a trip? Say with James.
( before Kiara was born) Wouldn't she have to have Desiree's approval ?  Or would it be enough that she had Kaine's approval ?

Though Kaine has primary custody of Kyron, decisions would be shared, but the types of independent decisions would depend on their custody agreement.

Desiree is Kyron's mother. Only Desiree and Kaine have parental responsibility over Kyron.

Grey, forgive me, but SM was the custodial Mum, would that change things in decision making?

[Wyks]

I am sorry, I should have snipped that, please don't tell a mod.

 

<whistles innocently *cough* runnnn Bearly *cough*> 

Hi Muffy!   




    

[Wyks]

I am sorry, I should have snipped that, please don't tell a mod.

 

    

<whistles innocently *cough* runnnn Bearly *cough*> 

Hi Muffy!   

oooopsy.  sry   

[sebastian]

I don't know why I cannot figure out how to include the link with the story, ugh!

http://www.katu.com/news/local/100511654.html

Try putting the link first.  That is how I remember.

Sebastian, I have a simple word processing program called text edit (Mac).  I click on it to pull a page up on my desktop.  Then I  copy and paste the article from the browser onto my page.  Next I copy and paste the url link and put it on my page.  Then I come back here and cut and paste what is on my page into the reply for Scared Monkeys.

Another thing you can do is pull up another browser window and copy and paste the information from the other window into the reply section here.

Thanks you guys! I can barely copy and paste LOL!

[Wyks]

Could someone remind me how LE found out about the MFH? Was it through cell phone texts?

Seems it may have been, amom2.  It also seems to have been discovered about the same time that first round of questionaires (from school staff/parents/volunteers) were returned and LE had been doing further interviews with those folks.  We were wondering at some point if the LS guy had ever worked at the school, cuz they were doing some landscaping/planning etc.  With all that seemingly going on around the same time, without LE saying exactly what they got from where and when, we get to try and piece together this stuff. 
   

[Scatty]

Landscaper Terri allegedly tried to hire to kill Kaine appears before grand jury

http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/news/topstories/story/Landscaper-Terri-allegedly-tried-to-hire-to-kill/DsZPsC9z3UujvXc6ZrUh-Q.cspx

link added

What wrongdoing would the landscaper be granted immunity from.  Obviously ... he never went along with any MFH plot.

Janet

That is a good point, but if he is an illegal, wondered if he can get immunity for that?

That's a VERY good question.  IF he can get immunity from being illegal...then I would be concerned he would say anything to get to be here legally.  Could you even trust what he says?  This is a person who has no qualms with breaking the law.

That really bothers me. I'm not even sure if this person is illegal, don't think there is anything but rumor on this, but I could be wrong. But I wouldn't trust what he has to say if true.

I may be going blind, but I couldn't find anywhere in that article that said he's getting immunity for anything. IMO his testimony is going to be just as credible, maybe more so, than anything DeDe might have to say. He has cooperated with LE before being dragged before the GJ. So I don't understand why his testimony should be more suspect than the TerriTubbies'.
And why are people assuming that he's an illegal immigrant?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that the post that was made about the arrest (with picture of Sanchez and arrested by the U.S. Marshall) said something about being "illegal".

Does any other monkey recall?

If you mean the man with the beard, I don't believe that was the man. Blink brought up the name Rudy Sanchez, and then people were looking up all Sanchez's who were arrested in the recent past including some unsavory-looking characters. These weren't weren't the LS and they weren't Rudy. We don't even know if the LS was arrested or what his name really is for sure. Rudy may or may not be the LS but he owns a LS company and Blink thinks he's involved. I think. Correct me if I'm wrong please monks.

[Bearlyhere]

    


Not to worry Bearly, you and everyone else can relax.  Just had a aha! moment.  I'm dumb as a box of rocks at times.   

No name calling.  That means saying derogatory things about yourself, too.

 

Now go make up!

 

[Wyks]

WHERE IS KYRON?!?

I'm just so frustrated with this, I could cry.

It is very difficult, knowing that those who hold the answer are selfishly keeping their information to themselves.

ITA - this is so so unbelievably frustrating!

Yeppers, I agree with all of you.  And others feel the same frustration, I am sure.  Would sure love to take a brick upside the heads of a few. 

[Wyks]

WHERE IS KYRON?!?

I'm just so frustrated with this, I could cry.

It is very difficult, knowing that those who hold the answer are selfishly keeping their information to themselves.

ITA - this is so so unbelievably frustrating!

Yeppers, I agree with all of you.  And others feel the same frustration, I am sure.  Would sure love to take a brick upside the heads of a few. 

Starting with Terri and DeDe, that's what I mean.  lol

[klaasend]

Just for the sake of asking ..

Does anyone know if Terri adopted Kyron? legally ?  Or was Desiree paying child support for Kyron? to Kaine ?  I don't know how that works? Like say if Kyron needed Medical attention would Desiree override Terri? in the case of an emergency ? Was it not Desiree that was called when Kyron was missing/ call placed from the school. I'm confused. What would Terri be able to do without Desiree's approval ? Would not all " important" issues " Of Kyron"  have to be presented for Desiree's approval ..first? 
Hypothetical
Like if Terri wanted to take Kyron, out of state, for instance on a trip? Say with James.
( before Kiara was born) Wouldn't she have to have Desiree's approval ?  Or would it be enough that she had Kaine's approval ?

1.  Terri did not adopt Kyron
2.  Terri would have legally zero rights pertaining to Kryon without Kaine's approval, maybe Desiree's as well.
3.  Whether or not Kaine would need approval to take Kyron out of the state would be a matter of the custody agreement between Kaine and Desiree.  Terri would have zero legal rights to do anything.

[Scatty]

Just for the sake of asking ..

Does anyone know if Terri adopted Kyron? legally ?  Or was Desiree paying child support for Kyron? to Kaine ?  I don't know how that works? Like say if Kyron needed Medical attention would Desiree override Terri? in the case of an emergency ? Was it not Desiree that was called when Kyron was missing/ call placed from the school. I'm confused. What would Terri be able to do without Desiree's approval ? Would not all " important" issues " Of Kyron"  have to be presented for Desiree's approval ..first? 
Hypothetical
Like if Terri wanted to take Kyron, out of state, for instance on a trip? Say with James.
( before Kiara was born) Wouldn't she have to have Desiree's approval ?  Or would it be enough that she had Kaine's approval ?

Though Kaine has primary custody of Kyron, decisions would be shared, but the types of independent decisions would depend on their custody agreement.

Desiree is Kyron's mother. Only Desiree and Kaine have parental responsibility over Kyron.

Grey, forgive me, but SM was the custodial Mum, would that change things in decision making?

There's physical custody and legal custody. Kaine may have had most of the physical custody, but Desiree may have had 50% legal custody, which is quite common.

[Deenie]

author=Deenie link=topic=8365.msg1205936#msg1205936 date=1281639674]
Just for the sake of asking ..

Does anyone know if Terri adopted Kyron? legally ?  Or was Desiree paying child support for Kyron? to Kaine ?  I don't know how that works? Like say if Kyron needed Medical attention would Desiree override Terri? in the case of an emergency ? Was it not Desiree that was called when Kyron was missing/ call placed from the school. I'm confused. What would Terri be able to do without Desiree's approval ? Would not all " important" issues " Of Kyron"  have to be presented for Desiree's approval ..first? 
Hypothetical
Like if Terri wanted to take Kyron, out of state, for instance on a trip? Say with James.
( before Kiara was born) Wouldn't she have to have Desiree's approval ?  Or would it be enough that she had Kaine's approval ?

I know that DY was the emergency contact listed at school, but do not believe any of the actual custody arrangements between KH and DY have been published or said by them.
Speaking of DY does anyone else find it so odd that she picked a day Kyron was to meet his mother for the weekend?  That one really sticks out to me.

Wasn't it planned with Kaine that DY was taking Kyron that weekend. That Tony was taking " Kyron" on a fishing trip for the weekend. That it was promised. There was a lot crammed into that day of the 4th. 
The Science Fair
The Talent Show
Kaine promising after school - that he would take Kyron for Ice Cream or to play Wii
Kyron promised that the would see his Mom. That at one point " Terri / Kaine / Both" were to drive and meet DY/Tony half way.. that Kyron was to be with Tony for the weekend. 
I recall that Kyron was really geeked ( or was said to have been looking forward to Fishing) and then it was said too ..the following weekend was it/ Father's day weekend? that they had a family trip planned to go to California ? maybe I am wrong
If If If ..
If Kyron normally got out of school and was at the bus stop around 3:30pm ..to be walked home. Than if you figure in " Dad time with Kyron - Ice Cream or Wii " I would think that they would spend at least an hour together ..that would push the time to 4:30 or 5pm. Which then it would be " Rush Hour" traffic ..and then DY more than likely not off work yet.   
It was said it was a 2.5 hour drive to meet DY half way - so if they left the Horman House at 6:30 to avoid traffic.. Kyron would have landed with DY around 8:30-9pm. For then to turn around and go back to DY's house - then it would be Midnight by that time to DY's. Maybe it was just that, they were going to go fishing. Not on a weekend trip away? Just seems like a lot stuffed into a weekend..to start on a Sat am only to have to go back on Sunday. Kyron still had school yet, on Monday. Why not wait until the following weekend when Kyron was out of school officially.  ( Maybe Tony had something reserved?)
The one thing though that sticks out in my mind. Not to know it as fact, yet it was said that the School Secretary called Desiree. After Kaine told Terri to call Desiree ( standing in the School office, when I think Kaine went tearing up the School by hand). KH told Terri to call DY and tell her Kyron was not on the bus..that he was missing. Terri allowed the School Secretary to Call instead of her. I think ( and I have said this before) that Terri didn't want to call Desiree with the news. Because Desiree would not believe her. She would think that Terri was lying. That Desiree would automatically say " You don't want to Drive Kyron to meet Me"  " I don't believe you, Put Kaine on the Phone" ..so for the secretary to call Desiree it would have been official that Yes indeed Kyron was " missing"... with all the rivalry stated at present between DY and TH .. even with news that Kyron was missing out of TH's mouth to DY .. I think DY would call BS. Because it was her weekend with Kyron. And DY would think that TH was up to her so called tricks. ( because DY has said in statements that TH lies all the time, when it comes to Kyron, even that TH has lied about Kyron being stung by Bees) gawd.
WW interview: http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07/10/kyrons-parents-describe-web-of-deception-from-stepmom/
Young says Terri Horman was a frequent liar about matters large and small.

“She can’t even tell the truth about her divorce or, you know, how she met Kaine, any of that,” Young says. “Silly little things. Stories about Kyron getting stung by a bee she can’t even tell the truth about.”
 I am sorry, if it is true, that she lied/even made in jest comments about Kyron being stung by bee/bees.. I would not want her around my child ! knowing he is highly allergic. That is sinister behavior/comments coming from TH to Desiree.. knowing DY is 4 hrs away. That is down right obnoxious imo.  I would not take comments like that from TH very lightly... I would have to do something to gain custody of my child/Kyron. For his safety and my sanity.   

 

[Deenie]

Just for the sake of asking ..

Does anyone know if Terri adopted Kyron? legally ?  Or was Desiree paying child support for Kyron? to Kaine ?  I don't know how that works? Like say if Kyron needed Medical attention would Desiree override Terri? in the case of an emergency ? Was it not Desiree that was called when Kyron was missing/ call placed from the school. I'm confused. What would Terri be able to do without Desiree's approval ? Would not all " important" issues " Of Kyron"  have to be presented for Desiree's approval ..first? 
Hypothetical
Like if Terri wanted to take Kyron, out of state, for instance on a trip? Say with James.
( before Kiara was born) Wouldn't she have to have Desiree's approval ?  Or would it be enough that she had Kaine's approval ?

1.  Terri did not adopt Kyron
2.  Terri would have legally zero rights pertaining to Kryon without Kaine's approval, maybe Desiree's as well.
3.  Whether or not Kaine would need approval to take Kyron out of the state would be a matter of the custody agreement between Kaine and Desiree.  Terri would have zero legal rights to do anything.

Thank you Klaas and everyone else who answered.   

[klaasend]

http://www.divorcesource.com/OR/ARTICLES/kramer12.html

Oregon Grandparent & Psychological Parent
(provided by Mark Kramer, Esq.)

Oregon Grandparent & Psychological Parent Rights

Oregon law protects the rights of grandparents and others who have formed a relationship with a minor child. Grandparents may petition the court for visitation rights when their contact with a minor child is being unreasonably denied. If the court finds that visitation has been interfered with and contact is in the child's best interest, it may order reasonable visitation. What is reasonable will depend upon the circumstances of each case.

Relatives and non-relatives who have maintained an ongoing personal relationship with a minor child may petition the court for visitation and contact rights. You must show a substantial degree of contact with the child for a period of at least one year. You do not have to show that you have had physical custody, only a relationship with substantial contact. If the court finds from clear and convincing evidence that visitation is in the child's best interest, it may order visitation. "Clear and convincing evidence" is a higher legal standard than is required in other cases.

A petition for grandparent visitation rights or other visitation rights may be filed in a new legal proceeding or through intervention in an ongoing juvenile court, guardianship, or domestic relations proceeding.

Custody may also be sought in special circumstances, where you can show a child/parent relationship. To seek custody, you must show physical custody of a minor child within the six months before a case is filed. It is important but not sufficient to show that you provided food, clothing, and shelter to the child. If you are seeking custody as a psychological parent, you must also show that they have assumed parenting responsibilities, at least temporarily.

Generally, in custody contests between a natural parent and a psychological parent, the court will award custody to the natural parent, absent some compelling threat to the child's present or future well-being. The "best interests" standard does not apply in these situations.

Oregon law also allows placement of children who are neglected, abused, or who have special needs with relatives and non-relatives in guardianship and juvenile court proceedings.

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Stepparent Rights

Oregon law protects the rights of a stepparent who has formed a relationship with a minor child. During a marriage, both the stepparent and the non-custodial birth parent have a financial obligation for a minor child. However, a stepparent's financial obligation ends when a divorce judgment is entered.

During a divorce or separation proceeding, a stepparent who has maintained an ongoing personal relationship with a minor child may petition the court for visitation and contact rights. You must show a substantial degree of contact with the child for a period of at least one year. You do not have to show that you had physical custody, only a relationship with substantial contact. If the court finds from clear and convincing evidence that visitation is in the child's best interest, it may order visitation. "Clear and convincing evidence" is a higher legal standard than is required in other cases.

A petition for stepparent visitation rights may also be filed in a new legal proceeding or through intervention in an ongoing juvenile court, guardianship, or family law proceeding.

Custody may also be sought in special circumstances, where a stepparent can show a child/parent relationship. To seek custody, you must show physical custody of a minor child within the six months before filing an action. It is important but not enough to show that you provided food, clothing, and shelter to the child. You must also show that you have assumed parenting responsibilities, at least temporarily.

Generally, in custody contests between a birth parent and a stepparent, the court will award custody to the birth parent, absent some compelling threat to the child's present or ftiture well-being. The "child's best interests" standard does not apply in these situations. In some cases, if the birth parent abandons a child for a substantial period of time, it may be sufficient to warrant custody to a stepparent. Stepparents may also seek to adopt a minor child.

Establishing stepparent rights can be emotionally difficult and legally challenging. Whenever possible, professional legal advice should be obtained.

Information provided by:
Mark Kramer, Esq. located at
http://www.kramer-associates.com