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Author Topic: Putin  (Read 11874 times)
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nonesuche
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« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2007, 11:40:04 PM »

Louise,

Honestly in all the years I've worked on campaigns or with lobbyists or even legislators, you do have the thinnest skin I have ever encountered. That isn't intended as a slam either, it's an honest observation.

Be prepared for Putin to launch a new OPEC for natural gas soon and one of his oligarchs has been quite busy buying up oil reserves in the Carribbean, plus Russia has NO debt now. They owe no one, they are happy to join forces with Iran and South Korea, the next axis of evil for our world.

No candidate should be allowed to avoid answering many questions regarding their approach to dealing with Putin.
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LouiseVargas
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« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2007, 11:51:03 PM »

Well, that's what happens when one cannot recover from an unrecoverable loss. You may have walked in some shoes but you have never walked in mine. Please grant me some slack.
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« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2007, 12:20:24 AM »

I cannot believe some of the things you are posting.

unrecoverable loss? your attacks have now taken a new low road.
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LouiseVargas
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« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2007, 12:30:41 AM »

Will you please leave me alone?
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« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2007, 01:29:18 AM »

I haven't attacked you Louise, only responded back. I won't respond to it again which is all the control I can exert here - to depart.
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« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2007, 12:37:02 PM »

Quote from: "LouiseVargas"
Hi Nonesy,

I certainly can handle any and all examinations of my candidate. How can you assume I cannot?

I HAVE worked in a Campaign HQ for John Kerry, in person and online. I even hosted a fund rasing party. So I've already had the eye-opening experience and education of supporting a candidate.

So please know that I understand what I'm doing.



Louise..supporting Kerry really had to be an eye opening experience....he only thing I have seen that Kerry did that was good for this country is NOT throw his hat in the ring this time around.
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« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2007, 12:40:25 PM »

Quote from: "LouiseVargas"
Well, that's what happens when one cannot recover from an unrecoverable loss. You may have walked in some shoes but you have never walked in mine. Please grant me some slack.


What in the HELL is that supposed to me?  Uncalled for IMO..Slack??  I thought this was the political forum???
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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2007, 12:43:44 PM »

Quote from: "LouiseVargas"
Will you please leave me alone?


Louise surely you do not think you can post the many things you post and no one respond....or do you want a peronal thread  where no one can respond to you???   you need to think before you hit the submit key if you don't want responses to your posts.
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2007, 01:36:09 PM »

Louise,

I have not been posting in the political threads for awhile now. Part of it is due to the way your post have been perceived by me. I know you say you are a crystal adult and I told you there may be others here that are also crystal adults.

I do not know what kind of loss you are suffering but maybe you should post it in the prayer thread rather than here. In fact my opinion only, but since you want to be left alone maybe it would be good for you to leave the political forum alone until you are recovered somewhat from your loss.

Right now you seem to be doing your political candidates a disservice by the way your post are being interpeted. Again my opinion only.
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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2007, 01:55:45 PM »

I sent this to Nonesuche by email and thought she might post it but since she hasn't would like to share this information with any interested in Russia and what our friend Putin might be up to these days.  Rather lengthy but at least read the percentage of EU oil/nat gas controlled by Russia.

So I do believe we can no longer count on those countries as allies when Putin holds this kind of control over them all.


The Nashis - intimidating and harrassing
by PETER HITCHENS

I am more scared of Russia now than I ever was in the days of the Cold War, when silly disarmers fanned exaggerated fears of nuclear war.

And so should you be.

Then, we were the respected members of a great and potent alliance that stood united against an economically and politically decrepit Kremlin, whose colossal armies dared not move forward one foot, and whose rockets could only be fired in an act of global suicide.

Now we are a small and lonely country, singled out for the ire and spite of a reborn, vigorous Russian nation: ruthless, aggressive, rich; flushed with a revived national pride and armed with the entirely usable weapons of oil and gas.

Russia's state-controlled gas monolith, Gazprom, is an enormous energy power, second only to Saudi Arabia in the size of its reserves.

It is the biggest extractor of natural gas in the world and the planet's third largest corporation. It is the sole supplier of gas to the three Baltic republics, as well as to Bosnia-Herzegovina, Finland, Moldova and Slovakia. It is by far the biggest gas provider to Turkey, supplying around 65 per cent of that country's needs.

It sells about a quarter of the gas used by the entire European Union. This includes 97 per cent of Bulgaria's gas, 89 per cent of Hungary's, 86 per cent of Poland's, almost 75 per cent of the Czech Republic's, two thirds of supplies to Austria, 40 per cent of Romania's, 36 per cent of Germany's, 27 per cent of Italy's and 25 per cent of France's.

At present it has only two per cent of Britain's gas market but this is expected to rise to 20 per cent during the next few years, and Gazprom is also talking about buying Britain's gas distribution company, Centrica.

Significantly, in recent disputes with Ukraine and Belarus it has been ready to turn off the tap to get its way.
Suddenly, it is believable that Russian agents might murder their government's enemies, blatantly and spectacularly, on British sovereign soil - and that we will get no serious help in tracking the culprits.

We are also being treated in general with snorting, bullying contempt designed to let us know just how far we have fallen.

Her Britannic Majesty's Ambassador to Moscow, Anthony Brenton,who ought to be a figure of status and respect,is subject to a crude and unsubtle campaign of personal harassment, sometimes actually dangerous, and unashamedly winked at by the Moscow authorities.

The BBC's Russian service is mysteriously told it can no longer broadcast on the FM band, thanks to alleged licensing difficulties. And now a strange whistling noise is interfering with reception on the AM band as well.

Britain's official cultural arm, the British Council, has been raided by tax inspectors, famous for their selective zeal against those who upset the President.

And, laughably in this country of low safety standards, it has just been fined for breaking fire regulations in its Leningrad office - run, as it happens, by Neil Kinnock's son, Stephen.

It is a new experience for Britain, so long herself a feared power who could behave much as she wished, to be the weaker party in such a quarrel, and with no great hope of getting stronger.

We are, in my view, being warned crudely and bluntly that in future we must treat Moscow with respect, in the street-gangster sense of the word.

There are to be no more grants of political asylum to foes of the Kremlin. There are to be no more lectures on human rights from diplomats or the BBC. Or else.

This is a calculated humiliation. At least America has been tactful as it has quietly deprived us of our empire and reduced us to second-class status.

The new Russia is as tactful as a teenager full of lager. This is a raw, adolescent society. Moscow, once somnolent and repressed, is now Europe's most exhilarating, exotic and expensive city. It glitters with money like a Gulf oil state.

Significantly, its seven great Stalin-era skyscrapers, assertions of overbearing might dating from the last years of the great dictator, have been scrubbed and regilded as an expression of nostalgic national pride.

The Russian rouble, once a sort of joke-money traded in wads, like wastepaper, on the black market and useful only for buying bottles of raw vodka or blue, diseased chickens, is now a petro-currency available from exchange offices in London and accepted by airlines for duty-free goods.

At street level you see other significant signs of brashness, lawlessness and immaturity. Bodyguards, dressed in obligatory black, sit next to hotel lifts guarding their rouble-billionaire clients, or march through the lobbies with their shut, blank faces and that strange, swaying gait. Shops display the gross bad taste of the new rich.

Within the fences that keep out the poor, the expensive women totter about, dressed as if to satisfy the sexual fantasies of 14-year-old schoolboys: no heel lower than five inches, every skirt tight and short.

Amid such scenes I briefly snatched a conversation with Andrei Lugovoi, one of the men suspected of playing a part in the death of Alexander Litvinenko. His two bulging bodyguards loitered, adopting boxers' stances, presumably ready to floor me if I misbehaved.

Mr Lugovoi had until then been ignoring my requests to see him but a Russian colleague tracked him down and bravely blocked his path while I caught up with him. Mr Lugovoi is a slight man in bizarre shoes with long, tapering toes. He bestows on me a disarming smile and twinkles as I try to question him. Will he be returning to London?

"I hope so," he lies merrily before walking off.

If this is a Kremlin hitman, he puts on a good act. But then such a man would, wouldn't he?

Shaped as I was by the Cold War and by two melodramatic years living in Moscow as the old regime collapsed 15 years ago, I had begun my enquiries by meeting Mikhail Lyubimov, now in his 70s but once a real-life KGB hood, expelled from London after he tried to recruit female Whitehall clerks at tea dances.

Compared with Russia's modern hard men, Lyubimov is Santa Claus. He still has a spy's instinct, insisting on sitting in the darkest corner of the pizzeria where we meet.

He remains very much the loyalist, praising President Vladimir Putin as "more sensible than Boris Yeltsin, more sensible than Gorbachev".

He is plainly impressed by the revival of national self-confidence under the ex-KGB agent. "Putin understands the mind of the people. He understands Russian pride."

Lyubimov doubts the reinvigorated Russian state would nowadays kill its enemies on foreign soil.

"The idea that he gave the order to kill Litvinenko, this is rubbish," he says.

In his time, the KGB certainly took stern vengeance in its cellars on such traitors as Oleg Penkovsky. But in a revulsion from the methods of the Stalin era, it was careful about killings abroad.

He recalled: "In the Stalin years, we killed a lot of people abroad."

But he explains this stopped under Khrushchev and never seriously started again.

"I remember there was a decision to kill Oleg Lyalin, the Seventies defector. This was sent to all KGB stations, "If you see this man you must do all in your power to eliminate him."

I imagined I might meet him on the London Tube - what should I do? [Smilingly, he mimes a pushing action] Shove him under the wheels of the train? It was a typical secret service order. They knew it would not be done."

Nor was it. Despite having helped to wreck Russian spy networks in London for a generation, Lyalin died of natural causes in 1995, at an unnamed location in England.

All very comforting. But Alexei Venediktov, one of Russia's leading political commentators, widely believed to have excellent Kremlin access and the ear of influential billionaire Roman Abramovich, suspects things have changed. I spoke to him at the studios of the radio station Echo Moscow, a favourite forum for the capital's politically aware.

He points out that in 2004, two Russian agents were convicted by a Qatari court of killing a Chechen rebel exile in the Gulf state. The pair have since been returned to Russia, supposedly to serve their sentences there, but actually to an official welcome and likely release.

And he draws my attention to a new law signed by President Putin last July, specifically allowing Russian special service agents to kill 'terrorists' abroad.

He also explains that Britain's stock is low in the new Russia.

"Our ruling elite believe Britain is not a country with its own policies, but one which follows American policy, so there is no sense in talking to the British when they can talk to their American bosses."

But it is more than that. There is a specific dispute, and it is personal between President Putin and Anthony Blair. It is caused by an argument over extradition. The treatment of the British Ambassador, Anthony Brenton, has been personally permitted by the Kremlin and is a sign of its displeasure over the asylum given to anti-Putin billionaire Boris Berezovsky and to the Chechen leader Ahmed Zakayev.

Venediktov, referring to Kremlin potentates as "the people from behind the walls," says: "The Russian authorities are also displeased that Berezovsky travels on a British passport under what they regard as the false name of Platon Yelenin.

"They are sure the decision about this asylum was not taken by the courts but by the Home Office, and we know Putin talked to Blair about that. Putin thought Blair was not being helpful. They think, surely, there is a way to overrule the courts in Britain."

Apparently - in a bizarre throwback to old Soviet propaganda ideas about Britain - Putin's advisers believe Ministers and judges belong to the same clubs and communicate with each other privately there.

When I suggest to him that the Russian Embassy in London must surely know this is all wrong, Venediktov replies that Russia now has the sort of government whose foreign envoys tell it what it wants to hear.

The dispute is personal.

"Putin's disbelief of Blair was the start of the sudden cooling of relations with Britain. The Russian government thinks the British Government has not met expectations. Putin thinks Blair fooled him when he promised tight co-operation against terrorism. Putin is very personal in his relations with other political leaders."

He would do them personal favours, and presumably expects the same in return. Boris Berezovsky is regarded by Putin as a sort of terrorist because of his open calls for the overthrow of the Russian government.


But the Kremlin had got used to that.

The incident that really damaged relations was the granting of asylum last summer to executives from Yukos, the oil company now effectively seized by the Russian state but once owned by Putin critic Mikhail Khodorkovsky, currently doing time in a remote jail for supposed tax offences. Russian prosecutors were livid that they were prevented from extraditing the Yukos men.

And soon afterwards the troubles of Ambassador Brenton began. To some extent they are his own fault. He spoke at a meeting of opposition groups under the umbrella of an organisation called Another Russia, which he was absolutely entitled to do.

But among these groups was the repellent National Bolshevik Party, led by Eduard Limonov, a creepy writer of dirty books, accused by his enemies of being an open supporter of discredited Stalinist and National Socialist ideas. Certainly his party's symbols are startlingly - and intentionally - similar to those used by Hitler's Nazis.

But this cannot be the reason why Mr Brenton has since been singled out and harried, as we shall shortly see. Two American diplomats spoke at the same gathering and the French ambassador was present, but nothing has happened to them.

Venediktov says the treatment of Mr Brenton is the first of its kind since a dangerous frontier quarrel between the old USSR and China in 1969. Then, an officially sponsored demonstration was unleashed against the Chinese embassy. Since then, there has been no action comparable to this by a Moscow government. But the pursuit of Mr Brenton is obviously happening with official support.

"There is no doubt they are acting on the orders of the Kremlin," Venediktov says.

Who can doubt he is right about that?

The organisation that pursues Mr Brenton is a supposed patriotic youth movement called Nashi, which means, roughly, 'Our thing'. Nashi is as spontaneous as North Korea. If it is a popular youth movement, why is its Moscow headquarters bare of any indication of who operates within? Why have its leaders met President Putin three times? Why are its finances such a mystery?

Nashi's campaign against our man in Moscow is an elaborate, malicious and sometimes risky tease, which in my view could not have been dreamt up by a few teens and which clearly has official sanction and help. Mr Brenton called for a "civil society" in Russia, with freedom of expression. And that is what he is getting.

Youths, including 19-year-old computer student Tikhon Chumakov, have been demonstrating outside the British Embassy and wherever Mr Brenton goes. They are mysteriously well informed about his movements. They even follow his official car through the hellish Moscow traffic, which can be dangerous. How do they do it?

I spoke to Chumakov, a slim fair-haired character who looks a little as the young Putin must have done. He is slightly vague about how the protests began or how he came to be involved but he now has a personal grudge after being thumped by a (Russian) security guard during a protest outside the Ambassador's beautiful residence just across the river from the Kremlin.

The Ambassador has since said sorry for this excess of zeal. But Chumakov wants a broader apology for associating with the "fascists" of the National Bolsheviks. He is currently planning a trip to London during which he hopes to appeal to the Queen about the matter.

He claims to be outraged. But he is curiously passionless as he says he is motivated by disgust at the National Bolsheviks and similar types.

"We in Nashi think such people are just scum. Since we are an anti-fascist youth movement, we were outraged."

He asks: "Can you imagine the Russian ambassador to London going to an IRA conference, or the Russian ambassador in Washington at a Ku Klux Klan rally?"

Mr Brenton has offered to have tea with Nashi representatives to explain his position but they have responded by displaying banners saying: "We don't want your tea." Chumakov says they want a proper apology, not a nice meeting. "I will carry on pursuing him until he either apologises or leaves the country."

Surely, I asked him, Nashi is a front organisation for Putin?

He replies: "We do support the ideas of the President. But to say that my actions are ruled or ordered by the Kremlin is untrue. I am doing it on my own."

He admits he has been given some travelling expenses when he has pursued Brenton to distant cities such as Samara but says only small sums are involved.

He is, obviously, only a footsoldier in someone else's army. I get a more subtle explanation of how the group works from Anastasia Suslova, 21, a Nashi official.

While unable to say where Nashi gets its money (it is said to come from pro-Putin businessmen, as it happens), she explains that: "In 2005, with the 'orange' and 'rose' revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia, we realised we needed a young generation which would understand that Russia is equal to the other European nations, and we would need a young generation that would not blindly follow such revolutions.

"Our job is to bring up young patriots from the generation of people who grew up to survive the failure of democracy in Russia."

That phrase 'failure of democracy', is very important. The Gorbachev-Yeltsin years are seen as a time of chaos and national humiliation. Many refer to it in Russian as "Dermokratiya", which translates rather unpleasantly as "The rule of s***".

"Our ideas and tasks coincide with what Putin wants from youth. We support the political goals of the President," adds Anastasia. Which is a very happy coincidence for Mr Putin, who was severely shaken by the outbreaks of "people power", in neighbouring countries, seeing them - with some justice - as the manipulation of crowds and public opinion to overthrow authoritarian governments much like his own.

Had such a thing happened in Moscow, I think we would have seen hordes of Nashi supporters holding gigantic counter-demonstrations and waving their symbol: a combination of the Tsarist St Andrew's Cross and the old Soviet red flag, which is a good summary of Putin's view of Russia.

Putin, aided by his brilliant spin doctor Vladislav Surkov, has shown some skill in creating or backing - at arm's length - political movements that serve his purpose at the time, and dumping them later.

Nashi is just the latest and Britain is its present target. Once we have learned to do as we are told when Russia wants to extradite someone, the outrage over Mr Brenton's behaviour will mysteriously die away.

At approaching elections, President Putin rather wittily plans to back two parties at once: United Russia to get the patriotic vote and Just Russia to pick up support from the old Communists.

Real opposition parties will disappear or get tiny totals. The battle will be so hollow it will make our own bloodless contest between New Labour and Cameron Toryism look like a real struggle for the soul of the nation.

Under the leadership of this clever, secret police-trained cynic, the new Russia will go on getting stronger, more authoritarian, more confident; casting a longer shadow over a Europe which has yet to realise the size of the threat that this new oil and gas state poses, or of the resentment it feels over the way it was humbled by a triumphalist West at the end of the Cold War.

Now it is getting its own back. There will be worse to come.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Find this story at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=433567&in_page_id=1770
©2007 Associated New Media
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All posts reflect my opinion only and are not shared by all forum members nor intended as statement of facts.  I am doing the best I can with the information available.

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« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2007, 02:39:11 PM »

Anna, I'm sorry I didn't get it posted, still working on orders and the website so at my PC but haven't had time to read all of my email  Embarassed

that's a good piece, thank you !
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« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2007, 03:02:31 PM »

Oh, I fully understand, None, no critique on you.  Just wanted you to know it was the same article as it is so long.

And it is rather complicated.  The author has lived in Russia off and on for years so much easier for him to understand the players and the new movements.  I doubt I retain much of this but is good to know we can find the information should we want to brush back up on it in the future.

But I see every thread in politics is still taken personally with someone or other trying to pick a fight.   Rolling Eyes

Well, no one has the right to say what I may post or what I may not post regardless of their illusions of grandeur to the contrary.  If anyone doesn't like my posts, just don't read them.  End of problem.

.
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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2007, 03:33:45 PM »

Quote from: "Anna"
Oh, I fully understand, None, no critique on you.  Just wanted you to know it was the same article as it is so long.

And it is rather complicated.  The author has lived in Russia off and on for years so much easier for him to understand the players and the new movements.  I doubt I retain much of this but is good to know we can find the information should we want to brush back up on it in the future.

But I see every thread in politics is still taken personally with someone or other trying to pick a fight.   Rolling Eyes

Well, no one has the right to say what I may post or what I may not post regardless of their illusions of grandeur to the contrary.  If anyone doesn't like my posts, just don't read them.  End of problem.

.


ANNA Personally, I LOVE your posts. Always very informative.
Right now, I am not jumping into the political forum since I can't seem to wrap my brain around some things I'd like to respond to in a lady like manner.  Wink
So, I read And I want to let you know I am so pleased you are continuing to post.  Always thoughtful, always intelligent.
You go, girl!

I am also missing TylerGal. Is she okay? Please tell her I said hi if you hear from her!
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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2007, 03:45:58 PM »

Quote from: "Sam"
Louise,

I have not been posting in the political threads for awhile now. Part of it is due to the way your post have been perceived by me. I know you say you are a crystal adult and I told you there may be others here that are also crystal adults.

I do not know what kind of loss you are suffering but maybe you should post it in the prayer thread rather than here. In fact my opinion only, but since you want to be left alone maybe it would be good for you to leave the political forum alone until you are recovered somewhat from your loss.

Right now you seem to be doing your political candidates a disservice by the way your post are being interpeted. Again my opinion only.



Okay, please enlighten me. WHAT is a Crystal Adult??????????
This inquiring mind would LOVE to know. Shocked
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« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2007, 03:59:07 PM »

Quote from: "Artcolley"
Quote from: "Sam"
Louise,

I have not been posting in the political threads for awhile now. Part of it is due to the way your post have been perceived by me. I know you say you are a crystal adult and I told you there may be others here that are also crystal adults.

I do not know what kind of loss you are suffering but maybe you should post it in the prayer thread rather than here. In fact my opinion only, but since you want to be left alone maybe it would be good for you to leave the political forum alone until you are recovered somewhat from your loss.

Right now you seem to be doing your political candidates a disservice by the way your post are being interpeted. Again my opinion only.



Okay, please enlighten me. WHAT is a Crystal Adult??????????
This inquiring mind would LOVE to know. Shocked


I was wondering the same thing!
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« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2007, 04:03:31 PM »

Quote from: "Dihannah1"
Quote from: "Artcolley"
Quote from: "Sam"
Louise,

I have not been posting in the political threads for awhile now. Part of it is due to the way your post have been perceived by me. I know you say you are a crystal adult and I told you there may be others here that are also crystal adults.

I do not know what kind of loss you are suffering but maybe you should post it in the prayer thread rather than here. In fact my opinion only, but since you want to be left alone maybe it would be good for you to leave the political forum alone until you are recovered somewhat from your loss.

Right now you seem to be doing your political candidates a disservice by the way your post are being interpeted. Again my opinion only.



Okay, please enlighten me. WHAT is a Crystal Adult??????????
This inquiring mind would LOVE to know. Shocked


I was wondering the same thing!



 Laughing  Laughing  Shocked
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« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2007, 04:17:02 PM »

ANNA,  
I am so grateful when you bring articles and your vast wealth of knowledge in here... please continue to do so.

TYLER>.. we need you back!!!!
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« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2007, 04:24:59 PM »

Quote from: "mrs. red"
ANNA,  
I am so grateful when you bring articles and your vast wealth of knowledge in here... please continue to do so.

TYLER>.. we need you back!!!!


ABSOLUTELY, Mrs. Red.

ANd, I also love reading what you write, Mrs. Red.
Of course, it helps that I agree with all of it as well! Wink
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« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2007, 05:23:35 PM »

Oh my we are political today.My feeling is simple like as a cat,Putin take everything and destroy the rest if they can.They are not to be trusted,but we must attempt to watch and study them.They are chessmasters.Clancy was wrong about our weapons always being best.They invented in the 1960's a ceramic plates to combine with reactive armor.Made antitank weapons worthless.Just a random thought,but a very strong one based on history.A tornado warning for 30 miles away,so if you see a cat flying,say hello.If I see the wizard,I will say hello.CAT
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« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2007, 05:34:50 PM »

Quote from: "Cat"
Oh my we are political today.My feeling is simple like as a cat,Putin take everything and destroy the rest if they can.They are not to be trusted,but we must attempt to watch and study them.They are chessmasters.Clancy was wrong about our weapons always being best.They invented in the 1960's a ceramic plates to combine with reactive armor.Made antitank weapons worthless.Just a random thought,but a very strong one based on history.A tornado warning for 30 miles away,so if you see a cat flying,say hello.If I see the wizard,I will say hello.CAT


CAt, you be careful. Flying cats are hard to catch in a strong wind! Laughing

I have a woman friend...unassuming antique collector...but not really, heehee...who had intimate knowledge of the workings of Putin. When he got in she immediately said to me.."Watch this man. he is evil. He will never be anything but KGB. Trust me, watch and learn. "
She is right.
As always.
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