Natalee Case Discussion #847 9/21/10 - 9/25/2010

[Magnolia]

I am so hopeful that Peter and Beth will expose all of the Persistence betrayal.

Perhaps it was fear of exposure that threw Tim over the edge?

[texasmom]

It's been alluded to, but I'll come out and say it outright:

What IF the reason Tim is angry is because the the "documentary" Peter and Beth are working on exposes the Persistence and TES complicity?

   Whoah.......... I hadn't thought of that, Wreck! I'm experiencing whiplash from Tim's comments and my brain hasn't caught up yet! It's that skull of yours Wreck! You're so cerebral!   

I don't care who is run over as long as it's the path to truth that justice is walking down! That path is the only one to Natalee and to real closure for Beth!

Not so cerebal --- TexasMom firmly planted it into my brain!! 

   When I read your post this morning, I couldn't remember if you'd responded to my post from yesterday or not...so I thought maybe you'd missed it and we were just thinking alike!   

[Tamikosmom]

Tim's words convinces me that Tim Miller did not sell his soul to the devil until following the visual dive of December 30, 2007.

Janet
______

The search for Natalee Holloway
updated 2/22/2008 8:20:27 PM ET
 
On Christmas Eve sonar pictures revealed what looked like a large trap, almost exactly where Tim Miller theorized it would be.

And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.

Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.

Chris Hansen: So, you're thinking-- you're thinking at this point--

Tim Miller: I’m thinking at this point, "Oh, my God, maybe we've got something. Maybe we've got something."

In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains. I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

[wreck]

It's been alluded to, but I'll come out and say it outright:

What IF the reason Tim is angry is because the the "documentary" Peter and Beth are working on exposes the Persistence and TES complicity?

   Whoah.......... I hadn't thought of that, Wreck! I'm experiencing whiplash from Tim's comments and my brain hasn't caught up yet! It's that skull of yours Wreck! You're so cerebral!   

I don't care who is run over as long as it's the path to truth that justice is walking down! That path is the only one to Natalee and to real closure for Beth!

Not so cerebal --- TexasMom firmly planted it into my brain!! 

   When I read your post this morning, I couldn't remember if you'd responded to my post from yesterday or not...so I thought maybe you'd missed it and we were just thinking alike!   

I think I was "speed reading" when I saw your post! I didn't fully grasp your whole message -- but, apparently it made a subliminal impact!! 

[texasmom]

It's been alluded to, but I'll come out and say it outright:

What IF the reason Tim is angry is because the the "documentary" Peter and Beth are working on exposes the Persistence and TES complicity?

   Whoah.......... I hadn't thought of that, Wreck! I'm experiencing whiplash from Tim's comments and my brain hasn't caught up yet! It's that skull of yours Wreck! You're so cerebral!   

I don't care who is run over as long as it's the path to truth that justice is walking down! That path is the only one to Natalee and to real closure for Beth!

Not so cerebal --- TexasMom firmly planted it into my brain!! 

   When I read your post this morning, I couldn't remember if you'd responded to my post from yesterday or not...so I thought maybe you'd missed it and we were just thinking alike!   

I think I was "speed reading" when I saw your post! I didn't fully grasp your whole message -- but, apparently it made a subliminal impact!! 

 

[Kermit]

Tim's words convinces me that Tim Miller did not sell his soul to the devil until following the visual dive of December 30, 2007.

Janet
______

The search for Natalee Holloway
updated 2/22/2008 8:20:27 PM ET
 
On Christmas Eve sonar pictures revealed what looked like a large trap, almost exactly where Tim Miller theorized it would be.

And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.

Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.

Chris Hansen: So, you're thinking-- you're thinking at this point--

Tim Miller: I’m thinking at this point, "Oh, my God, maybe we've got something. Maybe we've got something."

In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains. I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

I don't feel that Tim Miller would have said anything to Beth and Dave if he wasn't really sure about what was in that trap
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366415#msg366415

[Kermit]

February 14, 2010

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/watts-up-with-this/2010/02/15/watts-up-with-this

Tim Miller:  

So, did we find Natalee?  I don’t know. It certainly looked like her clothes in that fish trap and again we know the night that Natalee disappeared the fisherman’s huts was broken into the knife was stolen; the big fish trap was stolen.  

It’s ironic we found one and I’ve actually got the pictures of that... you know what certainly appears to be a body in that fish trap.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=7126.960

[Kermit]

February 14, 2010


STEPH WATTS AND TIM MILLER INVERVIEW
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/watts-up-with-this/2010/02/15/watts-up-with-this

Tim Miller:  

So, did we find Natalee?  I don’t know. It certainly looked like her clothes in that fish trap and again we know the night that Natalee disappeared the fisherman’s huts was broken into the knife was stolen; the big fish trap was stolen.  

It’s ironic we found one and I’ve actually got the pictures of that... you know what certainly appears to be a body in that fish trap.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=7126.960

BY February 28, 2010 - TIM CHANGES HIS STORY
Tim Miller:

We don't know really know we can't say positively sure it was human remains we've got some pictures that made us wonder.

John Silvetti doesn't feel 100% that it was that is why John wants to go back to search we just got mixed messages on that and perhaps we over-reacted on that what we seen at the time looked suspcious.

I can't say positive one way or another what it was.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/watts-up-with-this/2010/03/01/watts-up-with-this

[Kermit]

February 28, 2010
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/watts-up-with-this/2010/03/01/watts-up-with-this
STEPH WATTS RADIOtalkradio: DAVE HOLLOWAY AND TIM MILLER

Dave: The most truthful story or event is the Range Rover tapes.

[Tamikosmom]

Here's another one:

2/14/2010
Tim Miller on Steph Watts’ blog talk radio show “Watts Up With This?”       

Steph:   “Tim Miller, other people are asking ‘are there any plans to search in the ocean?'  isn’t that like looking for a needle in a haystack in this case?" 

Tim:  “Not really, not with the equipment that John Silvetti and Louis Schaefer have.  In fact, two years ago on December 30th we found a fish trap and we was almost positive it was Natalee’s body in the fish trap.  We dove on it along with the Aruban authorities and then they said they’ve got to contact the Netherlands to see how to preserve it and what to do with it, and we was all going to dive on it together.  The Aruban authorities dove on it and then six weeks later they said the DNA came back as a male.  So, did we find Natalee?  I don’t know.  It certainly looked like her clothes in that fish trap and again we know that the night Natalee disappeared the fishermen’s huts were broken into, a knife was stolen, the big fish trap was stolen, uh, and ironic we found one and I’ve actually got the pictures of that, you know, what certainly appears to be a body in that fish trap.  So, I don’t know.   

2/28/2010
Tim Miller on Steph Watts’ blog talk radio show “Watts Up With This?”   

Steph:   “Tim, regarding the 2007 search that you did of the island where you found the lobster trap with the human remains in it, what was the outcome of that? 

Tim:  “Well, I mean, we… (sigh) we don’t really know.  We can’t say positively for sure that there was human remains.  Of course, we got some images and some pictures that certainly made us wonder, and um, you know, what that outcome is, I mean, John Silvetti certainly, um, doesn’t feel 100% that it was and that’s why John wants to go back over there with his ROV because we got 140 plus targets over there.  So, you know, there’s… you know, we just got mixed messages on that if you want to know the truth and possibly we overreacted at that time.  What we seen at the time certainly looked suspicious to us at the time, but again, you know, I can’t say positively one or the other what it was. 

Lifesong?  Where is she?

Janet

+++++

2/14/2010
Tim Miller on Steph Watts’ blog talk radio show “Watts Up With This?”   

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/watts-up-with-this/2010/02/15/watts-up-with-this


2/28/2010
Tim Miller on Steph Watts’ blog talk radio show “Watts Up With This?”   

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/watts-up-with-this/2010/03/01/watts-up-with-this

[antunym]

For Edward, who I hear has been banned. 


P Throwing that body there, Joran, just throwing that girl
overboard a few hundred meters from Aruba and that it did
not wash up, is very weird.
J Yeah.
Kyle told us that cage had been down there more than a year, less than 10 years
That the rocks were scattered, Kyle felt that happened when the cage hit bottom, and bounced. He said you could see where it bounced, due to a scar on the sea floor. (So that, to me, says the cage hadn't been down there for anywhere close to 10 years).

P There must have been something or other that took her. I
am telling you, there are lots of fish out there, hey?
J Sharks!
P My God, dude!
J Yeah.
P They are so big, dude!
J Yeah. I have seen them. I have—I also have a diving
certificate.[/u]
(Range Rover tapes)


VAL DRIVES A BOAT:

Vaelntijn Myspace.. (its set to private but has a photo of him driving a boat and a bit of his info) 

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=16063334


* Joran wantec to talk to his brother when he was in jail

* No statements from the brothers

* Joran said he knew Daury his whole life. He grew up with him.

* his cell phone was found sort of near that lighthouse.

Am I following this correctly?  Valentijn may have been the one who drove the boat that Natalee was thrown overboard off of?  Or may have been in on the dispoal and thats why his phone was found??

[Tamikosmom]

Tim's words convinces me that Tim Miller did not sell his soul to the devil until following the visual dive of December 30, 2007.

Janet
______

The search for Natalee Holloway
updated 2/22/2008 8:20:27 PM ET
 
On Christmas Eve sonar pictures revealed what looked like a large trap, almost exactly where Tim Miller theorized it would be.

And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.

Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.

Chris Hansen: So, you're thinking-- you're thinking at this point--

Tim Miller: I’m thinking at this point, "Oh, my God, maybe we've got something. Maybe we've got something."

In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains. I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

I don't feel that Tim Miller would have said anything to Beth and Dave if he wasn't really sure about what was in that trap
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366415#msg366415

 

When Tim Miller learned that the contents of the trap were recovered unchallenged by Aruban divers ... what prevented him from going up one side of John Silvetti and down the other?  What incentive bought his silence?

Janet

+++++++


Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

Kyle Kingman: I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further. After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.

Kermit - Scared Monkeys

[antunym]

Here's another one:

2/14/2010
Tim Miller on Steph Watts’ blog talk radio show “Watts Up With This?”       

Steph:   “Tim Miller, other people are asking ‘are there any plans to search in the ocean?'  isn’t that like looking for a needle in a haystack in this case?" 

Tim:  “Not really, not with the equipment that John Silvetti and Louis Schaefer have.  In fact, two years ago on December 30th we found a fish trap and we was almost positive it was Natalee’s body in the fish trap.  We dove on it along with the Aruban authorities and then they said they’ve got to contact the Netherlands to see how to preserve it and what to do with it, and we was all going to dive on it together.  The Aruban authorities dove on it and then six weeks later they said the DNA came back as a male.  So, did we find Natalee?  I don’t know.  It certainly looked like her clothes in that fish trap and again we know that the night Natalee disappeared the fishermen’s huts were broken into, a knife was stolen, the big fish trap was stolen, uh, and ironic we found one and I’ve actually got the pictures of that, you know, what certainly appears to be a body in that fish trap.  So, I don’t know.   

2/28/2010
Tim Miller on Steph Watts’ blog talk radio show “Watts Up With This?”   

Steph:   “Tim, regarding the 2007 search that you did of the island where you found the lobster trap with the human remains in it, what was the outcome of that? 

Tim:  “Well, I mean, we… (sigh) we don’t really know.  We can’t say positively for sure that there was human remains.  Of course, we got some images and some pictures that certainly made us wonder, and um, you know, what that outcome is, I mean, John Silvetti certainly, um, doesn’t feel 100% that it was and that’s why John wants to go back over there with his ROV because we got 140 plus targets over there.  So, you know, there’s… you know, we just got mixed messages on that if you want to know the truth and possibly we overreacted at that time.  What we seen at the time certainly looked suspicious to us at the time, but again, you know, I can’t say positively one or the other what it was. 

Lifesong?  Where is she?

Janet

+++++

2/14/2010
Tim Miller on Steph Watts’ blog talk radio show “Watts Up With This?”   

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/watts-up-with-this/2010/02/15/watts-up-with-this


2/28/2010
Tim Miller on Steph Watts’ blog talk radio show “Watts Up With This?”   

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/watts-up-with-this/2010/03/01/watts-up-with-this

The words that TM spoke in each of these two interviews is a lot different IMO. 

The first one was spoken straight and to the point as if it were the truth and without hesitation.

The second interview was full of stuttering as if it were made up as he was talking.

[Tamikosmom]

As of February, 2008 ... Tim Miller was attempting to downplay and divert attention away from the trap and focus it on the continuing search for Natalee Holloway's remains.

I can only assume that Kyle Kingman kept sonar/ROV regarding the other targets to himself.

Janet

+++++

On the Record w/ Greta - February 27, 2008

TIM MILLER: The report we got is the DNA that came back did not match Natalee's DNA and when we located that it looked like more than just a piece of cloth and I mean we, we felt as though we seen a skull in there. We got the Aruba authorities involved, they felt there was something in there, we dove on it and the thing is that's only 1 of over 170 targets out there we still have to investigate, so we've got a lot of work ahead of us.

Transcript - Heli (RU)


Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

March 3, 2008

oceanexploration:  Several hours of footage were of other (ROV) dives on other targets. None were of any relevance. Most targets were of peculiar coral pinnacles, man-made debris, and ship wrecks.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047;topicseen#msg360047


June 28, 2008

Kyle Kingman: The logs are in a safe somewhere. John and Ryan Poff (one of John's project managers) knows where it is. I can't get copies of the logs at this time. Perhaps in a few months. The target locations are in the safe, although I also have them in a safe spot.  I don't care about the other targets though. I don't think any of it is of any potential interest. Mainly junk, coral, and debris.

Kermit - Scared Monkeys

[carpe noctem]

Tim:  “Well, I mean, we… (sigh) we don’t really know.  We can’t say positively for sure that there was human remains.  Of course, we got some images and some pictures that certainly made us wonder, and um, you know, what that outcome is, I mean, John Silvetti certainly, um, doesn’t feel 100% that it was and that’s why John wants to go back over there with his ROV because we got 140 plus targets over there.  So, you know, there’s… you know, we just got mixed messages on that if you want to know the truth and possibly we overreacted at that time.  What we seen at the time certainly looked suspicious to us at the time, but again, you know, I can’t say positively one or the other what it was.


Yes, that would absolutely be enough evidence for me to pick up the phone and call Dave Holloway and shatter his heart.


Dave, I SEEN something and it looks SUSPICIOUS and WE have MIXED MESSAGES... but I am so sure that it is Natalee... it gave me enough juice to call ya.


So WEAK. I would crawl under a rock if I had done that to Dave Holloway... and never come back out... you wouldn't ever have to worry about me doing interviews.

[carpe noctem]

(sigh)

 

[wreck]

I think it is VERY evident that Tim has switched his stories SEVERAL times now. That's the problem with lying -- you will never be able to remember all your lies. Throw in a mind that is not always coherent due to alcohol and you get what you see now. I think it is more likely everyday that Natalee WAS in that trap.

[Tamikosmom]

I think it is VERY evident that Tim has switched his stories SEVERAL times now. That's the problem with lying -- you will never be able to remember all your lies. Throw in a mind that is not always coherent due to alcohol and you get what you see now. I think it is more likely everyday that Natalee WAS in that trap.

“Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive”
 Sir Walter Scott

The guilt that Tim Miller is carrying in regards to his betrayal of Natalee and her family 2 1/2 years ago appears to be weighing heavily.  It is imperative to Tim's well-being as well as his ability to focus on his ailing wife to come clean regarding what he knows and/or suspects about the happenings encompassing the trap and ... let the truth prevail.

Janet
 

[Bearlyhere]

I think years of heartbreak over the loss of his daughter and problems with alcohol have deeply effected Tim Miller's ability to reason.  He seems to me to be subject to suggestion far too much.

In that regard, I blame this Steph Watts person for the direction the interview took.

That said, Tim owns those words and is repsonsible for what he said no matter who was steering him in that direction.

What happened to never taking money from the families of victims?  Now he is demanding it from Beth???

Also please keep in mind that Beth had just forked over $25,000 in the SBI extortion sting.

How much money do they think she has?  And what was all that about big house, etc.?  I think Beth lives in a tiny condo, etc.

What did Steph and Tim actually accomplish last time they were there other than the consumption of accommodations, steaks and lots and lots of booze?

One time Tim supports a boycott and next time Aruba is paradise.

His mind is just not working right these days and while I respect all he has done in his lifetime, people should not exploit his weakness now that he is not playing with a full deck.

I was told a while ago that the over-consumption of alcohol could only have two outcomes, one being death and the other being insanity.  There was no happy outcome.

Tim, please get help!  I miss the Tim Miller I know is in there.

 

[Bearlyhere]

Thanks Klaas and Can.  I have a congenital heart condition that acts up from time to time so have new meds, etc.  Am on the mend and hope to read the question thread for Dana and listen in tonight.

I know we are all so steamed at Tim it should be very spirited.  Diss on anybody except Beth!  We just won't have it.

I believe what Steph and Tim have said will hurt the cause of missing and murdered children.  Any parent who keeps their child's face out there will become suspect, including Tim Miller.  I think it will hurt donations to TES for that reason, also, the people who have supported TES because of Beth will stop donating.  There are other S&R teams out there.  Watt the he!! where you thinking?