Kyron Horman, 7 years old PORTLAND,OR #29 9/18/10 - 9/21/10

[Gypsy DD]

.... At 8:45 a.m. when the bell rang, Terri walked her stepson down the hall close to his class.

"He told her, 'I'm going back to the classroom, Mom,' and she waves to him and left," Carol Moulton said. "She thought he was safely at school just like he is everyday."

What happened to the boy who went missing is unclear.

Carol Moulton said the kids were supposed to report to their classes and be divided into small groups of a few students each. Each group was supposed to tour the science fair with a chaperone. Afterward, when they returned to their classes for roll call, Kyron wasn't there, she said.

After leaving the school, Terri went about her day, running errands and taking care of household chores. She is a former elementary school teacher and has worked as a substitute teacher at various schools, but Moulton said that in recent years she has mainly been a stay-at-home mom...

Some of the people interviewed in the beginning of the case, acquaintances and family, gave their recollections and stories based on what Terri had told them.

Accounts like what good friends Terri and Desiree were before Terri snatching Kaine away.

Now we know Terri just snatched him while Desiree was pregnant and unaware of what was going on, until after the fact... and, according to some reports, that Terri and Desiree hadn't even been friends.

Good morning all, I hope this day finds you well and happy. The problem I have with all of these quotes in print from other people that Terri told her account to, is that they change. Terri has not told the same version to anyone, including LE. Truth is consistent. There is a little boys life at stake yet you cannot get your story straight. That is what pulled me off the fence way back when this all started.
Ispy you bring up some very valid points. If the entire morning was based on Kiara being sick, the doctors appt. for Kiara, etc. Where is the proof of the doctor appt.? If you are going out of your way to go to two different stores to purchase the medication, is that in your account for the morning routine? Why not pick up the project? If you have time to go to a gym with a sick child in tow , you can pick up the project and Kyron as well. Great points again Ispy.

Going back to the first day when Kyron was going to see the cool electric project and then waiting by the South door, waiting for who?
If Kyron was having mini seizures don't you think his teacher would have picked up on them?
Was someone messing with his head in that home? Was someone drugging him? If Kyron was sold to a human trafficking group, where is the money?

MB    Maybe all didn't go as planned.  They got Kyron and she didn't get the money !!!  If they were suppose to meet for the payoff say at Freddies after they had the child and they didn't show, maybe Terri panicked and thought they went to the wrong Freddies so she drove to the other store.   They weren't there either.  By this time she was in shock, Kyron gone and her stiffed so she tried to go where she thought they might be.  She calls Dede to help her get the mustang, in tandem they drive up Germantown rd to Skyline, down Newberry, didn't see the buyer's car, then headed to SI where she knew the buyer had friends and she might see their vehicle there - driving wildly with whoever had helped her get the mustang, crazy realizing how this had turned into one big screwup.

I actually believe it could have gone down like this with everything I have read on this case.  Amn I going  , that is Monkey crazy?   lol

BBM

With all due respect..if we believe that Kyron left the school with someone he knew on June 4, there was no way he was ever going to be returned alive.  If he left with someone he didn't know, then he would have been protesting and struggling ..and someone would have heard this.  I believe Kyron willingly left with someone he knew..

If Kyron knew this person he could identify them to LE and to Desiree and Kaine.  I don't believe this was ever a kidnapping for ransom, although the perps could have set it up to look that way..even buying themselves more time.  JMHO

[fatcatlurker]

IMO, TH is LLPOF...  and I believe nothing that originated from her. No seizures( if she was that concerned, KH and DY would have been aware of these episodes)

I agree with Desdemona, Scatty, and others about her account of "waves and leaves" ( my paraphrase)...only I will go further and say I not only question or find suspicious...  *LLPOF!

*LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE*

I feel very strongly that the reason/cause for Kyron being taken is something very evil and that herself is the seed of said evil.

Ditto for me also much as I may wish otherwise for Kyron.   

[Gypsy DD]

I know this has been gone over time and time again but that mini seizure story is a real clincher for me of Terri's culpability. If you think a child is prone to a petit mal seizure, wouldn't you take him to a doctor asap the first time it happened? Wouldn't you tell his father, mother, stepbrother, busdriver, teachers, anyone who might have contact with him? Would you want this child unattended for one second, until he has gotten on some medication? Would you want him outside at recess, let alone taking the bus home without any other adult knowing about this condition?  He. Never. Had. Seizures.
The only reason to fabricate something like this is to lay the groundwork for something happening to him while he was supposedly in this state.

Yeah..funny about those seizures only happening around Terri.  And Terri wasn't concerned enough about them to let Desiree know in one of her 5 emails a day to her?  And she didn't let Kaine know either. 

[Scatty]

That may be why Terri was requesting the daily updates on Kyron.  To see if someone else was seeing a change in his behavoir.  Once it was determined, by the color coding system the teacher had, Terri notified the Dr. who suggested the teacher complete the paperwork and submitt it to the Dr., along with Terri's input for his evaluation.

If she thought he was ill, why would she want Kaine to punish him and have Kyron confined to his room? He was not ill nor did he deserve to punished for not having the right color report. TH was not a nice person.

[Gypsy DD]

That may be why Terri was requesting the daily updates on Kyron.  To see if someone else was seeing a change in his behavoir.  Once it was determined, by the color coding system the teacher had, Terri notified the Dr. who suggested the teacher complete the paperwork and submitt it to the Dr., along with Terri's input for his evaluation.

Then why would Terri be punishing him for this behavior by having him spend the entire evening in his room if he got anything other then the perfect color if she felt this was organic in nature and not something Kyron could control??

I believe Kainme is trying to say in the quote, because I also say a video where he and Desiree are together, that they were not aware of the doctor appt or when it was until LE informed them the teacher thought he was at the doctors.  Which is exactly why Kaine's answer is so vague...he didn't nor did Desiree know anything about that until LE brought it up.  I'll try to find the link to that one tomorrow.

[Puzzler]

If we go with the school scenario in that Ky was taken an placed in the basement, why would a perp do this?  How could the perp guarantee that Ky would not be found or make noise or die in the school?  He would have to be drugged and then tied and then have something put over his mouth which could result in him dying from not being able to breathe.

That scenario makes no sense to me.

Well, it could make sense if you pick up on the part of maybe Kyron getting knocked out with a cloth of chemicals over his face.  So easy to do...seconds...quiet. 

Why would a perp do this?  Why does any perp do anything like this? 

What if the perp was a school employee and had access Kyron during the day and kept him drugged; or left school for lunch break and carried Kyron out in a gym bag or trash bag or some other container...simple..

Makes sense to me.

[Puzzler]

I meant to add, Kaine having the same reaction as it was all in Terri's head, and Kyron didn't have an issue. 

Once it came to the school's attention Kyron had a Dr. appt and the teacher had to monitor him, which I'm sure Ms. Porter shared with staff- he disappeared.

Allegedly, Terri had the discussion on Thursday about the Dr. appointment.  I do not remember the source of that statement, I want to say it came from Terri's camp early in the investigation.  I will try and locate it later on today.

The Dr. had to be aware of Terri's allegations of seizures, becaue Terri supposedly gave Ms. Porter documentation she was supposed to fill out while she monitored Kyrons behaviour at school.

I've never been clear on the "reason" for the doctor's appointment.  Terri talked about Kyron acting odd for a couple of weeks.  Where did the word "seizures" come from?  Terri? Or could it be that Terri had already taken Kyron to a doctors (perhaps family doctor) before and discussed Kyron's actions with that doctor.  Maybe that doctor suggested "seizures" and so an appointment was made to go see a "specialist".  Or...maybe the doctor was the kind of doctor what would work with Kyron to to evaluate his actions. 

Or, maybe Kyron was simply going for a regular check-up.  Or to the eye doctor. 

However, with the supposed paperwork from the doctor for the teacher to complete, it does sound like there had been a previous vist or previous visits to the doctor.  In that case, I can't believe that Kaine wasn't aware of the doctor visit(s).  Maybe he didn't agree that Kyron has something going on, or maybe it simply that with Kaine being so intelligent himself - he wouldn't want to consider that his son may have some kind of problem.

Question: some have said that Terri had just started making this up about Kyron...but...wouldn't she have had to previously taken Kyron to the doctor in order to get paperwork for the teacher to complete?

I'm by no means a doctor...but I don't necessarily think Terri would have had to taken Kyron to the doctor. She could've called the family doctor if they have one...explained to them what she seemed to be the only one noticing. They could have had her come to the office and pick up paper work for her and the teacher/teacher's to observe how Kyron was acting. I know when one of my children were evaluated for ADD/ADHD that is how it was handled...they wanted the questionnaire answered by his teachers and a parent...and then about a week later you go in for your child's appointment with the completed paper work. However, these so called seizures would be more dangerous then being tested for ADD/ADHD and I would think he should have been supervised a little better. Personally, if one of my children were going through those type of seizures I would keep them home and home school them until it was safe for them to go back to school. I'm with allot of other monkeys and I just don't believe this seizure story...and Kaine, Desiree or Tony weren't aware of them either...so evidently they were only happening around Terry. Who knows maybe will find out differently later.

nana - thanks for your post, especially since you've had experience with this....my post was "what if's".

[seemeatthebeach]

That may be why Terri was requesting the daily updates on Kyron.  To see if someone else was seeing a change in his behavoir.  Once it was determined, by the color coding system the teacher had, Terri notified the Dr. who suggested the teacher complete the paperwork and submitt it to the Dr., along with Terri's input for his evaluation.

But, you DON'T PUNISH the child!......which is what she did when Kyron's behavior report wasn't perfect.
If you're really concerned and love your child, and you are witnessing episodes that appear to be seizures, you TELL the biological parents, notify the school, teachers, school nurse, bus driver, and see a doctor ASAP! AND don't leave him in a chaotic situation, alone, with 300+ children running around at a science fair!

Terri's stories about mini-seizures is bullsh!t lies.

Doctor's do not require paperwork to be filled out FIRST, before seen if you call and tell them your child is having episodes of zoning out, rendering him in a semi-conscious state.

It really is NOT abnormal for a 7 or 8 year old to have very short attention span, and not pay attention at any given moment....boys especially.
 
I have 2 grown sons, and believe me my oldest had an attention span of a gnat.....
until about 4th grade.


MOO

[Puzzler]

I meant to add, Kaine having the same reaction as it was all in Terri's head, and Kyron didn't have an issue. 

Once it came to the school's attention Kyron had a Dr. appt and the teacher had to monitor him, which I'm sure Ms. Porter shared with staff- he disappeared.

Allegedly, Terri had the discussion on Thursday about the Dr. appointment.  I do not remember the source of that statement, I want to say it came from Terri's camp early in the investigation.  I will try and locate it later on today.

The Dr. had to be aware of Terri's allegations of seizures, becaue Terri supposedly gave Ms. Porter documentation she was supposed to fill out while she monitored Kyrons behaviour at school.

I've never been clear on the "reason" for the doctor's appointment.  Terri talked about Kyron acting odd for a couple of weeks.  Where did the word "seizures" come from?  Terri? Or could it be that Terri had already taken Kyron to a doctors (perhaps family doctor) before and discussed Kyron's actions with that doctor.  Maybe that doctor suggested "seizures" and so an appointment was made to go see a "specialist".  Or...maybe the doctor was the kind of doctor what would work with Kyron to to evaluate his actions. 

Or, maybe Kyron was simply going for a regular check-up.  Or to the eye doctor. 

However, with the supposed paperwork from the doctor for the teacher to complete, it does sound like there had been a previous vist or previous visits to the doctor.  In that case, I can't believe that Kaine wasn't aware of the doctor visit(s).  Maybe he didn't agree that Kyron has something going on, or maybe it simply that with Kaine being so intelligent himself - he wouldn't want to consider that his son may have some kind of problem.

Question: some have said that Terri had just started making this up about Kyron...but...wouldn't she have had to previously taken Kyron to the doctor in order to get paperwork for the teacher to complete?

http://www.kptv.com/news/24151901/detail.html

Q: Was Kyron supposed to be out of school the following Friday for a doctor’s appt.?

A: KAINE – THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION ABOUT THE APPOINTMENT but it was unknown exactly when the appointment was scheduled so we cannot comment for certain.

So~ Kaine WAS AWARE of the Dr. appt.

Good find.  I think the question of the alleged Dr. appointment is going to end up being important in this case, as I believe it could help to reveal the extent of premeditation in the plan to make Kyron disappear.

I don't agree that this quote from Kaine necessarily proves that Kaine was aware of the alleged Dr. appointment BEFORE June 4.  Kaine could possibly be referring to a "discussion" about an alleged appointment which took place during the first days after Kyron went missing, when Terri was spinning her tales to Kaine, Desiree, Tony, LE, etc.... JMO.

It would really be helpful to know what investigators have learned about this mysterious story of Kyron exhibiting worrisome symptoms right before he disappeared, and that he had a Dr. appointment.  Was an assessment or evaluation form really give to one of Kyron's teachers for this purpose?  Is there really a record of Terri calling a doctor to discuss her concerns about Kyron, and being given a tentative diagnosis of "mini-seizures?"  Was there really an appointment?  (I heard there may have been an appointment for June 11, but can't recall whether that was yet another detail that has been mentioned only by Terri.)  I really am curious about this facet of the story.

I don't recall any LE report or news report of confirmation of the doctor's appointment and/or date of doctor's appointment; however, as vocal as it's been for for things anti-Terri in an attempt to put pressure on her to crack, I'm thinking that "if" there was "no" doctor's appointment, that piece of info would have been leaked to the public long ago.  That would have been a great piece to put pressure on Terri IMO.

[fatcatlurker]

Going with the Terri and whoever the known lure was to get Kyron out of school. 

So if it was someone Kyron knew that he left the school with.  Time line with both Mr/Mrs Blank and Terri would have holes at certain point in time.

Pure Speculation on my part here;

Terri drops Kyron off at school tells him to meet outside cuz mommy has to go p/u medicine for Kiara than we will meet at FM to head to Dr's appt.  They meet at FM.   Mr/Mrs Blank gets in truck with Kiara and Terri's Cellphone and heads out to SI.  Terri gets in truck w/Kyron for supposed Dr's appt?  No idea what goes on with Terri and Kyron at this point.  They meet somewhere prior to gym and go on there way.

Please insert whoever grabs your mind into Mr/Mrs Blank  position here.   Mr/Mrs Blank  wouldn't know in this scenario -  my "bumbling innocent friend".  Maybe Terri has told Mr/Mrs Blank  abuse stories.  That she has to get Kyron away - hide him.  So Mr/Mrs Blank only knows her part and what Mr/Mrs Blank been told.

I was just trying to think up reasons for the LE questions about the vehicles at the schools and anything odd in the FM parking lots that day.

So tear it up Monkeys.

[fatcatlurker]

That may be why Terri was requesting the daily updates on Kyron.  To see if someone else was seeing a change in his behavoir.  Once it was determined, by the color coding system the teacher had, Terri notified the Dr. who suggested the teacher complete the paperwork and submitt it to the Dr., along with Terri's input for his evaluation.

Then why would Terri be punishing him for this behavior by having him spend the entire evening in his room if he got anything other then the perfect color if she felt this was organic in nature and not something Kyron could control??

I believe Kainme is trying to say in the quote, because I also say a video where he and Desiree are together, that they were not aware of the doctor appt or when it was until LE informed them the teacher thought he was at the doctors.  Which is exactly why Kaine's answer is so vague...he didn't nor did Desiree know anything about that until LE brought it up.  I'll try to find the link to that one tomorrow.

Exactly what I thought about his answer.  Vague.  In other words probably key to the investigation.  JMO

[Lenie]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong but did LE not say at the very beginning of the investigation that they were looking for a large container? It seems to me that I remember this but do not know what presser it was from.

[Desdemona]

That may be why Terri was requesting the daily updates on Kyron.  To see if someone else was seeing a change in his behavoir. Once it was determined, by the color coding system the teacher had, Terri notified the Dr. who suggested the teacher complete the paperwork and submitt it to the Dr., along with Terri's input for his evaluation.

If it is true (as we have been told) that Terri was insisting on stern punishment for Kyron each day that his behavior was not up to a certain strict standard, then it would not make sense that her purpose for requiring the daily updates was related only to an assessment of his symptoms for medical purposes.

What is the source for the stern punishment?  Do you have a link or can you direct me to the source?  I would like to read further into this aspect of the Horman household.  TIA-MK

Sure, MonkeyKing, no problem.  Here is one (an excerpt from a news story last updated August 23:)
- - - - -
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html

[..]

Still, no one said they could imagine that a woman who has devoted so much of her life to children could have been involved in his disappearance.

"I would agree with that statement up until a point in time," said Kaine Horman, her 36-year-old estranged husband, who has filed for divorce and obtained a restraining order against her. "I know a lot of things now that I didn't before. Now, I think there is a huge problem. I don't know what she's not capable of at this point."

Her attitude changed in the past year after Kyron entered second grade, he said. His teacher, with a color-coding system for her class, rated the kids on their behavior. Green was good, yellow signaled moments of inattention, blue indicated trouble and red sent them home.

Kaine said the teacher called parents about a blue or red card. But he said his wife was the only parent who asked for daily accounts from the teacher.

"Terri wanted notification whether it was green, yellow, red or blue," he said. "Every day she wanted it. That, to me, is extremely excessive. The child is in second grade."

He said when Kyron brought home anything but a green card she wanted Kaine to discipline him by grounding him to his room for the evening, eliminating play time or not letting him watch movies.

"There was no room for error," Kaine said.

The couple frequently argued about disciplining Kyron, he said.

[..]

- - - - -

[Desdemona]

   (Shoulda kept on reading!  Nana beat me to it.  Thanks, Nana.)

[Nana29]

  (Shoulda kept on reading!  Nana beat me to it.  Thanks, Nana.)

Tee hee...no prob!       Nana Banana?

[Lazydog1]

I wanted to share this regarding Jason Name Redacted/Name Redacted2 and Jaime Sanchez Estrada from BOC. Very interesting read.

 enumclawrose says:
September 21, 2010 at 5:17 pm

The other day someone was looking at the Oaxana angle. I brought up OEA because they are a sponsor on the orphanage’s website. This is the same orphanage that Friend’s of Pimpollo supports.

No wonder ELOISE got a pat on the back today from Blink. She tied Jaime to OEA. That means it is possible for Jaime Sanchez Estrada and Jason Name Redacted2 to have met through their charitable endeavors.

http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/09/09/kyron-horman-missing-case-review-and-birthday-wishes-to-the-frog-prince/comment-page-22/#comments

There are a couple more paragraphs at Blink I didn't copy and bring over. 

I am hoping this will further someones research here into the orphanage connection and Jason Name Redacted

[Puzzler]

If we go with the school scenario in that Ky was taken an placed in the basement, why would a perp do this?  How could the perp guarantee that Ky would not be found or make noise or die in the school?  He would have to be drugged and then tied and then have something put over his mouth which could result in him dying from not being able to breathe.

That scenario makes no sense to me.

Nor to me, HelloKitty.  I am very intrigued by the suggestion that slipped out when Desiree was answering a question on camera -- that Kyron was seen by a witness or witnesses near a white truck (presumably at the school) which may or may not have been the truck Terri drove to the school that morning.  If it is true that a witness saw Kyron near the/a truck after the time when Terri supposedly told him goodbye and walked out of the building, then that is a highly significant fact to take into account.  And highly incriminating to Terri, IMO.

Shortly after LE began investigating Kyron's disappearance, they assured the public that no one else was in danger, and that Kyron's disappearance was an isolated incident.  From what they were hearing/learning in those first hours, they seem to have known right away that it was not a stranger abduction... IMO, they understood very early on that in Terri, they were dealing with a classic case of LLPOF.  (Thanks, Nana!)

Well, if they were that "sure" of Terri "right away", it's sad that in almost 4 months they've not been able to develop enough concrete evidence for an arrest. 

I think that it could have been "too soon" to have totally turned to "Terri only" and made that sweeping decision in the first hours.

What does an isolated incident mean exactly?  Does is mean that only one child was taken?  Yes, that's obvious.  But to say everything's okay because this is an isolated incident - what does that mean and how can LE determine that with certainty in the first few hours?  You can't say because the stepmom did it - because after all this time and all this pressure LE hasn't arrested the stepmom.

Maybe Terri is the "one" and if she is I hope to he77 they put her under the prison.

I can't figure out if the person(s) doing this is really smart and planned for days in advance, or just simply lucky to get away with taking Kyron during a split-moment of opportunity.


Kyron by the truck - have we heard a timeframe for that?  I don't recall one.  Kyron could have been seen by the truck when he first got to school, too.  A timeframe would help to clear that up.

[fatcatlurker]

On the Doctor's appt part I'm confused about where the paperwork part given to the teacher came from?  Maybe I missed something in a news article somewhere?  Anybody got a link?

Also maybe the appt was valid but it was for the following Friday? 

[Puzzler]

They always say Occam's Razor-Occam's Razor.

I've tried to see what could be the simplest explanation vs the more complicated theories.  Today, I am still stuck back at the school.  (see my post on page #25 posts #498 & #499)
MK

Dear Puzzler, MK & Monks,

I agree.  It's simple.  It's not easy, (it's complicated), but it's simple (please see my new signature, below)!

But, like Deenie with her gym bag, me I keep going back to the island... the cell phone pings on the island.  The witness reports.  Kaine getting off work early.  White car/red mustang chasing around on the island... BP's houseboat on the island..  Death alerts off the houseboats... divers searching but not finding...Harry finding but LE not searching...

WHY do I keep going back to that !#$!*$% island, when I've never been there in my whole life?

Humpf.

I'm stomping outta here before I spontaneously combust.  I'll see you monkeys around the bend, cuz that's where I'm headed!



K. Cat.

Hi Kokos Cat,  The one thing I could say having been there is you would have to know where you were going to get down to the houseboats. 

They are about a 5 min drive after taking that left off the bridge heading north on the west side of the island.  When I drove it there was a lot of folliage that obstructed a good view of the houseboats themselves.  And what I could determine looking through the trees was that these people had to walk everything down the wood-planked walkway or take a small boat to get to their house.  I never did find the entrance to the place - didn't want to be too nosey ;}

There is also a houseboat development to the right as you start to go over the bridge - on the railroad side of the Channel.  I didn't think that was where LE was searching tho.  Not sure.

A lot of trees?  Would give good coverage.  Plus carrying an ice chest (or similar container) would be an ordinary thing to do walking to a boat...no one would question on being carried onto a boat. 

[Desdemona]

I don't recall any LE report or news report of confirmation of the doctor's appointment and/or date of doctor's appointment; however, as vocal as it's been for for things anti-Terri in an attempt to put pressure on her to crack, I'm thinking that "if" there was "no" doctor's appointment, that piece of info would have been leaked to the public long ago.  That would have been a great piece to put pressure on Terri IMO.

Good point; that is possible.  However, I tend to believe that LE is more concerned with preserving the incriminating details that they themselves can use to exert pressure on Terri and to prove her involvement, rather than creating public pressure by sharing information with us Monkeys and everybody else out there... JMO.  There is apparently(IMO) a LOT of information being held close to the vest by LE, which we the public are not privileged to be informed about at present... Perhaps we will one day learn these details.  Wish we could know it all right now!  Wish they could find Kyron.