Natalee Case Discussion #848 9/25/2010 - 10/7/10

[Tamikosmom]

 

private eye

Thank you for your response.

I am not justifying Kyle's silence in regards to the happenings encompassing the trap but ... he had only about a month's crash course from the Natalee's Freebirds regarding the corrupt Aruban investigation that had prevented justice from prevailing.  In other words ... not justifying but Kyle had second thought about doing right when it came to risking his entire career by disregarding a  confidentiality agreement and exposing the John Silvetti betrayal.

However ... Tim Miller has to be held to a higher degree of accountability than Kyle Kingman when loyalties were compromised in regards to respective betrayals ... in regards to respective ongoing professional relationships with John Silvetti.

At the time ... Tim Miller had over a 2 1/2 years relationship/ connection/ history with Beth and Dave.  He knew where it was at from personal experiences in regards to the nightmare that Aruban authorities had put Natalee's parents through.  Tim had claimed that Natalee's family was his family.  Tim had  claimed that Natalee was like a daughter to him.

Think about it.  Exposing the betrayal would have made Tim a hero.  However ... a line was drawn in the sand when Tim chose to remained silent regarding what he observed ... when he established a professional relationship with the betrayer ... a relationship which is still ongoing.  In other words ... Tim turned his back on Natalee.  Tim turned his back on Natalee's family.  IMO

private eye ... according to Kyle Kingman ... Natalee's remains may have been in that trap ... I cannot let that go.


Janet

++++++

Tim Miller

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman:  Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan.  He couldn't tell by his own admission
 
Kyle Kingman:  I requested all samples to be brought on board the Persistence for visual and top-side photographs. It was ignored by the project lead (John S.) who felt the Arubans would follow whatever they needed to do as far as proper protocol.

Kyle Kingman:  By Tim's (Trahan) own admission, his observation of the inside of the trap (lasting a few seconds) was inconclusive

Kyle Kingman:  The Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present).
 
Kyle Kingman:  John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word when they said on Dec 30th that it was nothing case relevant.

Kyle Kingman:  It's unanimous that Tim M. should never have told Dave and Beth anything about the trap until it's contents were forensically examined.  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers. It was a royal mess.

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

Kyle Kingman:  After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.

[texasmom]

Hi Private Eye

 

Janet

Hey Janet. How did you know I was lurking???????? You have mystical powers!!!!!!!!!!

Good Morning private eye.

It has been a while.  I hope all is well.

I am somewhat taken back by the words in your post.  It isn't often that we are not on the same page.

Take care.

Janet
9:45 AM PT

We are on the same page, I do not like at all what Tim said, enough so if I had been standing by him I would have probably punched him:), but given the time to reflect, I would rather minimize the bad and accentuate the good. I mean, he has done a lot, I agree something was amiss with the Persistence, but I don't think that was Tim, I realize he has gotten a lot of publicity, but he showed up not knowing for certain, and being a guy I know how easy it is to say something you really don't mean. That's why I am such a chicken about posting:) Beth is a strong enough person to ignore the comments, chalk them up as frayed nerves or misunderstanding, and continue as friends I believe. I am maybe trying to apply the "Good Sam"
law where you don't have liability from trying to help?????????????????????? You have such a mastery of the facts of this case, it is intimidating to post, but that is also what I love about you:)

It's so good to see you private eye!   

The part I bolded reminded me of the loving protective brother that I'm so thankful Beth has.   

I respect your opinion very much, and appreciate your coming here and telling us what you think more than you could possibly know.

You're special to us, being one of Natalee's family that has been here with us through a lot; I hope you'll never ever feel hesitant to chime in with your thoughts...or share in the laughter too that so often gets us through.

As many others, I'd given Tim Miller the benefit of the doubt for a long time.  I've supported him prayerfully too many times to count, and financially as much as I could.  I've taken up for him many times here.  He crossed the line with those comments about Beth, I know I won't be able to forget that. (my dad has a saying about me and never forgetting those things, lol) 

I hope he has sincerely apologized to Beth, and if she has forgiven him; I know I should too. 

Lunch break's over, gotta run!

Take care!   

[private eye]

private eye

Thank you for your response.

I am not justifying Kyle's silence in regards to the happenings encompassing the trap but ... he had only about a month's crash course from the Natalee's Freebirds regarding the corrupt Aruban investigation that had prevented justice from prevailing.  In other words ... not justifying but Kyle had second thought about doing right when it came to risking his entire career by disregarding a  confidentiality agreement and exposing the John Silvetti betrayal.

However ... Tim Miller has to be held to a higher degree of accountability than Kyle Kingman when loyalties were compromised in regards to respective betrayals ... in regards to respective ongoing professional relationships with John Silvetti.

At the time ... Tim Miller had over a 2 1/2 years relationship/ connection/ history with Beth and Dave.  He knew where it was at from personal experiences in regards to the nightmare that Aruban authorities had put Natalee's parents through.  Tim had claimed that Natalee's family was his family.  Tim had  claimed that Natalee was like a daughter to him.

Think about it.  Exposing the betrayal would have made Tim a hero.  However ... a line was drawn in the sand when Tim chose to remained silent regarding what he observed ... when he established a professional relationship with the betrayer ... a relationship which is still ongoing.  In other words ... Tim turned his back on Natalee.  Tim turned his back on Natalee's family.  IMO

private eye ... according to Kyle Kingman ... Natalee's remains may have been in that trap ... I cannot let that go.


Janet

++++++

Tim Miller

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman:  Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan.  He couldn't tell by his own admission
 
Kyle Kingman:  I requested all samples to be brought on board the Persistence for visual and top-side photographs. It was ignored by the project lead (John S.) who felt the Arubans would follow whatever they needed to do as far as proper protocol.

Kyle Kingman:  By Tim's (Trahan) own admission, his observation of the inside of the trap (lasting a few seconds) was inconclusive

Kyle Kingman:  The Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present).
 
Kyle Kingman:  John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word when they said on Dec 30th that it was nothing case relevant.

Kyle Kingman:  It's unanimous that Tim M. should never have told Dave and Beth anything about the trap until it's contents were forensically examined.  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers. It was a royal mess.

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

Kyle Kingman:  After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.

I am not blaming Kyle either. I do think he was duped, and I think he realizes it now. And I totally agree that Tim was wrong in these comments. Completely wrong. But I think Dave considers him a friend, and Beth still considers him a friend, so despite me not understanding the dynamics of their relationships, I can forgive him. But it took me a week????????? And I enjoyed reading the thrashings he got, but I know that Beth will be forever indebted to him, because he, like all at this site, were her wings when her feet couldn't carry her. Literally. I don't think you can comprehend how much everyones support helped Beth. And for that, I will owe you for the rest of my life.

[msmarple]

I would like to thank private eye for visiting and posting, and I understand what he's saying.

From the get-go, Tim has been one of those good guys with some serious warts and wrinkles. I think we've all known that. Well, at least, that's my opinion.

Someone (Frank?) (Deetch?) commented that all of this about Tim is a distraction. I agree.

Beth is a smart woman, stays focused, always on a mission. I doubt she is expending energy on stupid comments from a has-been's web radio show.

[private eye]

Hi Private Eye

 

Janet

Hey Janet. How did you know I was lurking???????? You have mystical powers!!!!!!!!!!

Good Morning private eye.

It has been a while.  I hope all is well.

I am somewhat taken back by the words in your post.  It isn't often that we are not on the same page.

Take care.

Janet
9:45 AM PT

We are on the same page, I do not like at all what Tim said, enough so if I had been standing by him I would have probably punched him:), but given the time to reflect, I would rather minimize the bad and accentuate the good. I mean, he has done a lot, I agree something was amiss with the Persistence, but I don't think that was Tim, I realize he has gotten a lot of publicity, but he showed up not knowing for certain, and being a guy I know how easy it is to say something you really don't mean. That's why I am such a chicken about posting:) Beth is a strong enough person to ignore the comments, chalk them up as frayed nerves or misunderstanding, and continue as friends I believe. I am maybe trying to apply the "Good Sam"
law where you don't have liability from trying to help?????????????????????? You have such a mastery of the facts of this case, it is intimidating to post, but that is also what I love about you:)

It's so good to see you private eye!   

The part I bolded reminded me of the loving protective brother that I'm so thankful Beth has.   

I respect your opinion very much, and appreciate your coming here and telling us what you think more than you could possibly know.

You're special to us, being one of Natalee's family that has been here with us through a lot; I hope you'll never ever feel hesitant to chime in with your thoughts...or share in the laughter too that so often gets us through.

As many others, I'd given Tim Miller the benefit of the doubt for a long time.  I've supported him prayerfully too many times to count, and financially as much as I could.  I've taken up for him many times here.  He crossed the line with those comments about Beth, I know I won't be able to forget that. (my dad has a saying about me and never forgetting those things, lol) 

I hope he has sincerely apologized to Beth, and if she has forgiven him; I know I should too. 

Lunch break's over, gotta run!

Take care!   

Now there is a big difference in forgetting and forgiving:) I won't forget,,,,,,,,,,,but I can forgive:) Bye

[Tamikosmom]

private eye ... I am somewhat confused.  Nevertheless I am thankful you dropped by.

Off to the dentist!

 

Janet

[Patriot]

Thank You Private Eye for checking in.

I stand with Beth and Natalee. And Kermit of course. 

Always have always will.

[crazybabyborg]

Private Eye; It's wonderful to see you and read your comments. Thank you so much for them. You and your family hold a special place in our hearts. Now and until Natalee comes home, we stand with the girl. We will always stand with Natalee and Beth and we will never forget.

God Bless you. You and your family remain in our prayers.

[Anna]

Good to see you as always, Private Eye!

[Magnolia]

Maybe I am out of line, but I think Tim should make a public apology for things he said on
Steph Watts show.  I am still furious with Tim.
 
I don't care about Steph Watts.  He can just crawl back under the rock he came from and
stay there.

[Anna]

Things build up over time.  I know I have tried to defend Tim Miller and "save him from himself" many times.  One of those involved calling the boss of reporter Jen Hale and trying to explain that Tim was emotionally fragile because of his own loss and his drinking problems and that Tim likely misspoke on that $1.5 million dollar fund for going back to search the remainder of the "targets."

Then he did all that questionable stuff in the Caylee Anthony case.  I don't follow that one as closely so I won't recap for fear of getting it wrong but I do know he did some highly questionable things in that regard as well.

And as I told Dana, we are all likely more upset over what he said about Beth than she is but there is just a limit to how many passes a person gets and how much I personally can overlook.

And as for TJ Ward. I just think it is highly unethical for any professional to take fees from a client and then trash them.  I don't care if it is a lawyer or just a PI, it stinks.

So having slept on it for a couple of days, I don't feel any differently toward those two than I did when they first said it.  And I tend to be a pretty calm and unemotional person for the most part.  It's not a flash or anger that I feel but a deep sense of disgust.

But if not for Natalee I would have never heard of either of these two.  And I tend to think they are just jealous that Beth now depends on Peter de Vries to help her instead of those who have made such a big fuss and honked their own horns so much in the past and produced nothing.

[San]

Maybe I am out of line, but I think Tim should make a public apology for things he said on
Steph Watts show.  I am still furious with Tim.
 
I don't care about Steph Watts.  He can just crawl back under the rock he came from and
stay there.

I am far behind and haven't caught up but wanted to say you are not out of line Magnolia.  If he can say those things about Beth in public he can also be a man apologize to Beth in public.

How about an apology on Dana's show rather than that idiot Steph Watts show.

HOW ABOUT CLEARING UP HIS COMMENTS.

[Anna]

Free rooms or house, free food and all the booze you can drink and all you have to do is trash Beth once in a while.

A bargain to some.  And something others would not do for anything on earth.

I guess it goes to the characcter thingy.  Some have it and some don't.

[Anna]

As I have said before, there was no ongoing investigation nor any investigation at all!  Who are they trying to kid.

Beth can't possibly "mess up" something that doesn't exist!

[Anna]

Maybe I am out of line, but I think Tim should make a public apology for things he said on
Steph Watts show.  I am still furious with Tim.
 
I don't care about Steph Watts.  He can just crawl back under the rock he came from and
stay there.

I am far behind and haven't caught up but wanted to say you are not out of line Magnolia.  If he can say those things about Beth in public he can also be a man apologize to Beth in public.

How about an apology on Dana's show rather than that idiot Steph Watts show.

HOW ABOUT CLEARING UP HIS COMMENTS.

And we could call in and ask Tim questions, lol!  I'd love that but bet he would never agree to that format.  Maybe a no-questions one.




 

[Magnolia]

And I am not the least bit pleased that Tim is going around on the guise of helping families

of missing persons, dragging along his trashy girlfriend, while his wife is at home with bone

cancer.  That makes him a liar and a cheat...anyway you look at it.

[crazybabyborg]

Maybe I am out of line, but I think Tim should make a public apology for things he said on
Steph Watts show.  I am still furious with Tim.
 
I don't care about Steph Watts.  He can just crawl back under the rock he came from and
stay there.

I am far behind and haven't caught up but wanted to say you are not out of line Magnolia.  If he can say those things about Beth in public he can also be a man apologize to Beth in public.

How about an apology on Dana's show rather than that idiot Steph Watts show.

HOW ABOUT CLEARING UP HIS COMMENTS.

If that should happen, Dana had better plan for a long show if we get to call in with questions and comments!! 

[carpe noctem]

Tim got me madder than a cat in hissy fit with a crocheted tail!

I don't go worked up so easily... so when I get there... it takes awhile

for me to come down from the ledge.

I think someone should pick that ol' boy up by the seat of his pants (there's plenty of loose material there) and stick him in a corner with his nose in it for a bit. He needs to think about the hurtful things he said on Steph's show. If he truthfully believes some of the crap he said about Beth and Natalee... he's not the man I thought he was.

One thing about forgiving people.

Have they even sincerely asked to be forgiven?

If the answer is no... they don't even want it.

Don't waste your time and energy.

[Tamikosmom]

I am back from the dentist with the horrible aftertaste of mint flavored floride gel.  As my grandkids would say YUK!!

private eye ... the words of Kyle Kingman convinces me that Tim Miller was on the side of justice for Natalee ... on the side of closure for her family at the time the trap was discovered ... at the time of the visual dive ... at the time he departed from the ship prior to the recovery dive.

What changed?  Why did Tim not go up one side of John Silvetti and down the other?  Why didn't Tim exposed for all to hear the betrayal encompassing the trap that may have contained Natalee's remains?   What/who persuaded Tim to become a participant ... a participant through silence ... in the furthering of the Aruban coverup that has prevented justice from prevailing since May 30, 2005?
 
God entrusted Tim with the truth and ... Tim failed Him big time when exposure regarding the Persisence betrayal did not happen and ... when a professional relationship with the betrayer was established.
 
Think about.  Would Tim have remained silent in regards to what he observed on board the Persistence if there was a possibility that the remains of his precious daughter had been in that trap?

Think about it.  Would Tim have embraced a professional relationship with John Silvetti and Louis Schaefer if there was a possibility that the remains of his  precious daughter had been recovered unchallenged by the Aruban enemy?
 
It is never too late to seek forgiveness.  However ... Tim must first bow with genuine repentence ... reveal all to Beth and Dave and ... reveal all to the FBI ... if he desires forgiveness ... forgiveness from Natalee's family  ... forgiveness from those who prayerfully and monetarily supported TES in this venture and ... above all ... forgiveness from God.  There will be personal consequences but ...  the burden which Tim has carried for over 2 1/2 years will have been lifted and ... the truth would prevail..

Private Eye ... the line was drawn in the sand 2000 years ago.  Repentance and forgiveness are a packaged deal.  If we desire our Savior to forgive the sins that we commit against His Holy Name ... genuine repentance is where is is at.

Janet

+++++ 

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.


A Reminder for Tim

Heli Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:30 pm

Dana Pretzer
July 20, 2006

Tim Miller:  we never received a grant in our life, we've tried to be self sufficient, we get donations, we have fund raisers. We never, ever ask for money from a family member, we've never asked for money from LE, we won't accept money from family members.

Somehow or another, God has always blessed us to keep our doors open, to make it to the next search.  Before we start a search we always start with a prayer... I'm only the founder of TES, God is our leader and that's why we have the success we have.

http://refugeesunleashed.net/about3669.html

[2NJSons_Mom]

Carpe and Janet saying the same thing in different words, imo.