Natalee Case Discussion #848 9/25/2010 - 10/7/10

[wreck]

billbi and wreck are correct....no conspiracy here....it was PI!

I don't want to be nosey (please don't respond, if you would rather not) ...... do you know PI? 

Never mind -- I should have read more intuitively in another thread.   

[wreck]

Okay, I get that Tim Miller is a troubled man, with a drinking problem.
He has had a sad life, lost his daughter and alienated his other child,
but what was it that set him off about Beth?

What angered Tim so much that he publically tried to humiliate Beth?

It was more than Steph Watts' goading.  It was a planned attack.

If someone could explain to me why Tim did what he did, maybe I could
be more forgiving.

I didn't say I AGREED with PI on the "forgiving" part -- just that I thought it was him saying it! I think there IS something to Tim doing a "pre-emptive strike" against Beth before she reveals something Tim doesn't want out.

[Tamikosmom]

It's been alluded to, but I'll come out and say it outright:

What IF the reason Tim is angry is because the the "documentary" Peter and Beth are working on exposes the Persistence and TES complicity?

A piece of the puzzle?  Is a picture emerging?

++++++

Klye: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February .  He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics.  DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal. DeVries also wanted to arrange a meeting.

[Magnolia]

Okay, I get that Tim Miller is a troubled man, with a drinking problem.
He has had a sad life, lost his daughter and alienated his other child,
but what was it that set him off about Beth?

What angered Tim so much that he publically tried to humiliate Beth?

It was more than Steph Watts' goading.  It was a planned attack.

If someone could explain to me why Tim did what he did, maybe I could
be more forgiving.

I didn't say I AGREED with PI on the "forgiving" part -- just that I thought it was him saying it! I think there IS something to Tim doing a "pre-emptive strike" against Beth before she reveals something Tim doesn't want out.

I fear you are right, Wreck.  And his defense of Aruba adds to that fear.

[texasmom]

Okay, I get that Tim Miller is a troubled man, with a drinking problem.
He has had a sad life, lost his daughter and alienated his other child,
but what was it that set him off about Beth?

What angered Tim so much that he publically tried to humiliate Beth?

It was more than Steph Watts' goading.  It was a planned attack.

If someone could explain to me why Tim did what he did, maybe I could
be more forgiving.

I didn't say I AGREED with PI on the "forgiving" part -- just that I thought it was him saying it! I think there IS something to Tim doing a "pre-emptive strike" against Beth before she reveals something Tim doesn't want out.

I fear you are right, Wreck.  And his defense of Aruba adds to that fear.

I agree with both of you, and I guess only time will tell.

Thanks for letting us know thecuz, I apologize, and hope no offense was taken.

[Tamikosmom]

I am not justifying Kyle's silence in regards to the happenings encompassing the trap but ... he had only about a month's crash course from the Natalee's Freebirds regarding the corrupt Aruban investigation that had prevented justice from prevailing for Natalee Holloway.  In other words ... when it came time to do what was right ... Kyle had second thought when it came to risking his entire career by disregarding a confidentiality agreement and exposing the John Silvetti betrayal.

However ... Tim Miller has to be held to a higher degree of accountability than Kyle Kingman when loyalties were compromised in regards to respective betrayals ... in regards to respective ongoing professional relationships with John Silvetti.

At the time ... Tim Miller had over a 2 1/2 years relationship/ connection/ history with Beth and Dave.  He knew where it was at from personal experiences in regards to the nightmare that Aruban authorities had put Natalee's parents through.  Tim had claimed that Natalee's family was his family.  Tim had  claimed that Natalee was like a daughter to him.

Think about it.  Exposing the betrayal would have made Tim a hero.  However ... a line was drawn in the sand 2 1/2 years ago when Tim chose to remained silent regarding what he observed ... when he established a professional relationship with the betrayer ... a relationship which is still ongoing.  In other words ... Tim turned his back on Natalee.  Tim turned his back on Natalee's family.

According to Kyle Kingman ... Natalee's remains may have been in that trap ... I cannot let that go.

IMO
______

I am not blaming Kyle either. I do think he was duped, and I think he realizes it now. And I totally agree that Tim was wrong in these comments. Completely wrong. But I think Dave considers him a friend, and Beth still considers him a friend, so despite me not understanding the dynamics of their relationships, I can forgive him. But it took me a week????????? And I enjoyed reading the thrashings he got, but I know that Beth will be forever indebted to him, because he, like all at this site, were her wings when her feet couldn't carry her. Literally. I don't think you can comprehend how much everyones support helped Beth. And for that, I will owe you for the rest of my life.

private eye

We will have to agree to disagree.  I am a believer in Kyle Kingman's own words regarding the happenings encompassing the trap.  Therefore ... I am believer that Tim Miller ... according to Kyle Kingman's own words ... was aware that the happenings encompassing the trap were not furthering the cause of justice for Natalee or the cause of closure for her family.

I hold both these men accountable for becoming participants in the Aruban cover up that has prevented justice from prevailing for Natalee since May 30, 2005 ... participants through their respective silences which did not happen without professinal benefits.  However ... for the reasons stated ... I do hold Tim Miller accountable to a great degree.

Just clarifying friend.

Janet

[Magnolia]

I don't know about Beth, but when I saw pictures of Joran living it up in the prison in Peru,
and Anita getting paid for interviews and flinging around the "Call me Hootie" poster, it made
me angry for a week.  I can only imagine how Beth must have felt.

We know that she knew about the Persistence and the discoveries that were ignored.
The Freebirds and Kermit told her.  Beth sat on the information and had not used it.

Maybe Beth finally decided to take action and called Peter to help her bring the facts
to the world.  I suspect a lot of people are afraid that is what has happened.
Fear is a strange emotion and can cause a lot of different reactions in people.

I hope that Beth finally got angry enough and that her revenge is sweet, even if she has
forgiven those responsible.

[Buckeye]

I don't know about Beth, but when I saw pictures of Joran living it up in the prison in Peru,
and Anita getting paid for interviews and flinging around the "Call me Hootie" poster, it made
me angry for a week.  I can only imagine how Beth must have felt.

We know that she knew about the Persistence and the discoveries that were ignored.
The Freebirds and Kermit told her.  Beth sat on the information and had not used it.

Maybe Beth finally decided to take action and called Peter to help her bring the facts
to the world.  I suspect a lot of people are afraid that is what has happened.
Fear is a strange emotion and can cause a lot of different reactions in people.

I hope that Beth finally got angry enough and that her revenge is sweet, even if she has
forgiven those responsible.

I think the Kalpoes said something in their deposition leading Beth to Peru and then Aruba and the Prosecutor.

[Magnolia]

I don't know about Beth, but when I saw pictures of Joran living it up in the prison in Peru,
and Anita getting paid for interviews and flinging around the "Call me Hootie" poster, it made
me angry for a week.  I can only imagine how Beth must have felt.

We know that she knew about the Persistence and the discoveries that were ignored.
The Freebirds and Kermit told her.  Beth sat on the information and had not used it.

Maybe Beth finally decided to take action and called Peter to help her bring the facts
to the world.  I suspect a lot of people are afraid that is what has happened.
Fear is a strange emotion and can cause a lot of different reactions in people.

I hope that Beth finally got angry enough and that her revenge is sweet, even if she has
forgiven those responsible.

I think the Kalpoes said something in their deposition leading Beth to Peru and then Aruba and the Prosecutor.

I hope so, Buckeye!

[Tamikosmom]

I don't know about Beth, but when I saw pictures of Joran living it up in the prison in Peru,
and Anita getting paid for interviews and flinging around the "Call me Hootie" poster, it made
me angry for a week.  I can only imagine how Beth must have felt.

We know that she knew about the Persistence and the discoveries that were ignored.
The Freebirds and Kermit told her.  Beth sat on the information and had not used it.

Maybe Beth finally decided to take action and called Peter to help her bring the facts
to the world.  I suspect a lot of people are afraid that is what has happened.
Fear is a strange emotion and can cause a lot of different reactions in people.

I hope that Beth finally got angry enough and that her revenge is sweet, even if she has
forgiven those responsible.

I think the Kalpoes said something in their deposition leading Beth to Peru and then Aruba and the Prosecutor.

Buckeye

Why would the Kalpoes reveal anything incriminating in their dispositions?  It would not be beneficial in regards to the defamation lawsuit and ... it would not be to their beneficial when those in Aruba ... who have prevented justice from prevailing for over five years ... are considered.

Janet

+++++


THE THREAT

Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway

Page 197: There is apparently no amount of money in the world that can get us the answer to what happened to Natalee. When I asked an Aruban attorney about this, his response was chilling: “The threat is bigger than the money,” he says. The Threat. That dark influence. The evil that nothing and no one can pierce.


Corruption in Paradise - Dave Holloway

Page 117: I also find it hard to believe that with all of the press that Natalee’s disapppearance has attracted, there is not one person anywhere who knows what happened to her. I can only surmise that those who do know something are too afraid to come forward. Maybe there would be a price to pay if they tell, a price so high and so threatening that not even the $1,000,000 reward money is enough of an enticement for someone to bring us the truth.

[Tamikosmom]

[Tamikosmom]

Here is the key part for me!

This case is almost four years old; it is not complex despite Plaintiffs' claim to the contrary; and Defendants are prepared to file for summary judgment, which is based, in part, on Plaintiffs admissions (now confirmed by their depositions in this case) that they entered into a conspiracy with Joran Van der Sloot to confuse and frustrate the police investigation of the disappearance of an American citizen, Natalee Holloway, from the island of Aruba over 5 years ago in order to cover up their role in the mystery of what happened to the teenager.

Deepak Knows!

Deepak Kalpoe - Suspect Statement - June 13, 2005

To your question as to who John Charles CROES is, where he lives and how often I have chatted to him on "MSN", I can say the following. The afore mentioned John lives with his whole family in Miami. I have known him since school. We were together at the MAVO. On Monday Mai 30th 2005 I had chatted with John from about 02:40 to 03:30 hours. We didn't chat continually. From time to time I went and watched some TV. But I am sure that he was online during the time-frame I just mentioned above here.


Deepak Kalpoe - Suspect Statement - June 29, 2005

You are telling me that John Charles CROES has stated that I wrote while I was chatting with him that I had written that the girl had put her hands in/down my pants, I can say the following. I did this to frustrate/mess up the investigation.

[Kat_Gram]

I have been reading at RU recently and I must say that most of them have seemingly come to their senses about allot of things.
Y-I-F and quite a few others have made some very well thought out posts regarding Joran.
They for the most part do not defend him. And, you have to give some of those peeps credit for being open minded enough to have a change of opinion on something that they were so adamant about before.
I love it when Julia /Glenda gets her azz kicked.

[Bearlyhere]

I don't know about Beth, but when I saw pictures of Joran living it up in the prison in Peru,
and Anita getting paid for interviews and flinging around the "Call me Hootie" poster, it made
me angry for a week.  I can only imagine how Beth must have felt.

We know that she knew about the Persistence and the discoveries that were ignored.
The Freebirds and Kermit told her.  Beth sat on the information and had not used it.

Maybe Beth finally decided to take action and called Peter to help her bring the facts
to the world.  I suspect a lot of people are afraid that is what has happened.
Fear is a strange emotion and can cause a lot of different reactions in people.

I hope that Beth finally got angry enough and that her revenge is sweet, even if she has
forgiven those responsible.

The only reason Anita does what she does is because she is trying to deflect the focus off of her and sporter.  If she had anything of value to add, she would have done it.  She doesn't so she goes around acting like a smacked ass.

[Bearlyhere]

You may also get answers that make you sorry you asked the question in the first place.

[Kermit]

I don't know about Beth, but when I saw pictures of Joran living it up in the prison in Peru,
and Anita getting paid for interviews and flinging around the "Call me Hootie" poster, it made
me angry for a week.  I can only imagine how Beth must have felt.

We know that she knew about the Persistence and the discoveries that were ignored.
The Freebirds and Kermit told her.  Beth sat on the information and had not used it.

Maybe Beth finally decided to take action and called Peter to help her bring the facts
to the world.  I suspect a lot of people are afraid that is what has happened.
Fear is a strange emotion and can cause a lot of different reactions in people.

I hope that Beth finally got angry enough and that her revenge is sweet, even if she has
forgiven those responsible.

I think the Kalpoes said something in their deposition leading Beth to Peru and then Aruba and the Prosecutor.

Michael Griffith on Nancy Grace show said the U.S. will charge Joran because the Kalpoe brothers are about to turn "State's evidence".

[Kermit]

I am not justifying Kyle's silence in regards to the happenings encompassing the trap but ... he had only about a month's crash course from the Natalee's Freebirds regarding the corrupt Aruban investigation that had prevented justice from prevailing for Natalee Holloway.  In other words ... when it came time to do what was right ... Kyle had second thought when it came to risking his entire career by disregarding a confidentiality agreement and exposing the John Silvetti betrayal.

However ... Tim Miller has to be held to a higher degree of accountability than Kyle Kingman when loyalties were compromised in regards to respective betrayals ... in regards to respective ongoing professional relationships with John Silvetti.

At the time ... Tim Miller had over a 2 1/2 years relationship/ connection/ history with Beth and Dave.  He knew where it was at from personal experiences in regards to the nightmare that Aruban authorities had put Natalee's parents through.  Tim had claimed that Natalee's family was his family.  Tim had  claimed that Natalee was like a daughter to him.

Think about it.  Exposing the betrayal would have made Tim a hero.  However ... a line was drawn in the sand 2 1/2 years ago when Tim chose to remained silent regarding what he observed ... when he established a professional relationship with the betrayer ... a relationship which is still ongoing.  In other words ... Tim turned his back on Natalee.  Tim turned his back on Natalee's family.

According to Kyle Kingman ... Natalee's remains may have been in that trap ... I cannot let that go.

IMO
______

I am not blaming Kyle either. I do think he was duped, and I think he realizes it now. And I totally agree that Tim was wrong in these comments. Completely wrong. But I think Dave considers him a friend, and Beth still considers him a friend, so despite me not understanding the dynamics of their relationships, I can forgive him. But it took me a week????????? And I enjoyed reading the thrashings he got, but I know that Beth will be forever indebted to him, because he, like all at this site, were her wings when her feet couldn't carry her. Literally. I don't think you can comprehend how much everyones support helped Beth. And for that, I will owe you for the rest of my life.

private eye

We will have to agree to disagree.  I am a believer in Kyle Kingman's own words regarding the happenings encompassing the trap.  Therefore ... I am believer that Tim Miller ... according to Kyle Kingman's own words ... was aware that the happenings encompassing the trap were not furthering the cause of justice for Natalee or the cause of closure for her family.

I hold both these men accountable for becoming participants in the Aruban cover up that has prevented justice from prevailing for Natalee since May 30, 2005 ... participants through their respective silences which did not happen without professinal benefits.  However ... for the reasons stated ... I do hold Tim Miller accountable to a great degree.

Just clarifying friend.

Janet

[Kermit]

I don't know about Beth, but when I saw pictures of Joran living it up in the prison in Peru,
and Anita getting paid for interviews and flinging around the "Call me Hootie" poster, it made
me angry for a week.  I can only imagine how Beth must have felt.

We know that she knew about the Persistence and the discoveries that were ignored.
The Freebirds and Kermit told her.  Beth sat on the information and had not used it.

Maybe Beth finally decided to take action and called Peter to help her bring the facts
to the world.  I suspect a lot of people are afraid that is what has happened.
Fear is a strange emotion and can cause a lot of different reactions in people.

I hope that Beth finally got angry enough and that her revenge is sweet, even if she has
forgiven those responsible.

The only reason Anita does what she does is because she is trying to deflect the focus off of her and sporter.  If she had anything of value to add, she would have done it.  She doesn't so she goes around acting like a smacked ass.

Exactly what we see Anita do is what Scott Peterson's mother taught her murdering son  - cut off emotions and never take responsibility.

Anita has given birth and raised a son who murdered TWO innocent young girls.
How does she live with that? By shutting off her emotions and pretending to herself that it's all a big fat mistake. Her friends enable her to not face the truth and do something - like tell the truth and insist that Joran tell the truth and give Natalee back to her parents. Someday when that bubble of hers will bursts - she'll be the one who needs to be in a psychiatric hospital.

[MuffyBee]

I don't know about Beth, but when I saw pictures of Joran living it up in the prison in Peru,
and Anita getting paid for interviews and flinging around the "Call me Hootie" poster, it made
me angry for a week.  I can only imagine how Beth must have felt.

We know that she knew about the Persistence and the discoveries that were ignored.
The Freebirds and Kermit told her.  Beth sat on the information and had not used it.

Maybe Beth finally decided to take action and called Peter to help her bring the facts
to the world.  I suspect a lot of people are afraid that is what has happened.
Fear is a strange emotion and can cause a lot of different reactions in people.

I hope that Beth finally got angry enough and that her revenge is sweet, even if she has
forgiven those responsible.

I think the Kalpoes said something in their deposition leading Beth to Peru and then Aruba and the Prosecutor.

Michael Griffith on Nancy Grace show said the U.S. will charge Joran because the Kalpoe brothers are about to turn "State's evidence".

     I'm reviewing the term Turn States Evidence.  I want to understand just what this means. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_state%27s_evidence
To turn state's evidence is when an accused or convicted  criminal testifies as a witness for the state against his associates or accomplices. Turning state's evidence is occasionally a result of a change of heart or feelings of guilt, but more often is done in response to a generous offer from the prosecution, such as a reduced sentence or a favorable location for serving time. In particularly high-profile or dangerous cases such as organized crime trials including other federal crimes trials, the witness may be offered immunity from prosecution  even if he has committed serious crimes himself, up to and including murder. The state may also offer the witness a place in the witness protection program, giving them a new identity so they need not fear retaliation from their former accomplices.

[MuffyBee]

http://www.answers.com/topic/state-s-evidence
Law Encyclopedia:  States Evidence

A colloquial term for testimony given by an accomplice or joint participant in the commission of a crime, subject to an agreement that the person will be granted immunity  from prosecution if she voluntarily, completely, and fairly discloses her own guilt as well as that of the other par- ticipants.

State's evidence is slang for testimony given by criminal defendants to prosecutors about other alleged criminals. A criminal defendant may agree to provide assistance to prosecutors in exchange for an agreement from the prosecutor that he will not be prosecuted. This agreement is commonly called turning state's evidence.

A criminal defendant who turns state's evidence may be offered a plea bargain or may have all criminal charges against him dismissed, depending on the nature of the case against the testifying defendant and the largesse of the prosecutor. A prosecutor may give a testifying defendant full immunity, which means the defendant cannot be charged with any crime related to the testimony he provides. A lesser form of immunity is called use immunity. Use immunity means that the prosecutor agrees only that she will not use any of the testimony given by the testifying defendant in any subsequent prosecution of that defendant. (snip)