Kyron Horman, 7 years old PORTLAND, OR #31 9/27/10 - 10/02/2010

[Brandi]

Hi Monkeys!  I have to say that you guys have put in a lot of effort and research on this case and you've been consistently going at it.  I really am impressed, but I keep coming back to one problem -- I just don't get the impression that TH is smart enough to have pulled this off.  Does anyone else struggle with this?  You all have come up with some very logical scenarios, but they would have had to be so carefully planned -- TH would have to be a sociopathic genius to do it.  I sure don't mean to discourage anyone, but I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this.

Thanks!

You know Flymonkey you would not believe how often in similar cases the same thing is said, the suspect isn't smart enough to carry it off. 

NO, I don't struggle with it at all.  She was smart enough to get a teaching degree.  I don't think she would need to be a genius but she may very well be a sociopath.

Your post actually encourages me.

I can see Terri as a sociopath pretty easily.

And I don't think she is dumb. (Not saying Flymonkey said she is dumb.)

[Scatty]

Hi Monkeys!  I have to say that you guys have put in a lot of effort and research on this case and you've been consistently going at it.  I really am impressed, but I keep coming back to one problem -- I just don't get the impression that TH is smart enough to have pulled this off.  Does anyone else struggle with this?  You all have come up with some very logical scenarios, but they would have had to be so carefully planned -- TH would have to be a sociopathic genius to do it.  I sure don't mean to discourage anyone, but I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this.

Thanks!

I don't think it takes a genius to be a criminal. Would that mean that anyone who hasn't been convicted for lack of evidence is a genius? Was Joran Vad der Sloot a genius because he wasn't indicted for killing Natalee? Sometimes it takes years to catch a criminal (watch ID channel a couple times and you'll know what I mean). These people were far from genii. Oh they are cunning alright, but it's usually just due to unfortunate circumstances like help or cover up from  accomplices, bungled investigations, and sometimes just plain LUCK, that they scamper off scot free for years. This case isn't going to be without an idictment for long IMO. The multi-agency task force is closing in tighter and tighter.

[fatcatlurker]

Flymonkey does DeDe have her computer back yet? 

If I remember right the warrant is running out so I was wondering about it.

[darla]

Good Afternoon monkeys and Guest!

I don't think it has anything to do with how smart Terri is, just how dang lucky she was at hiding the body. I think she had been planning this for a while and a lready had her disposal site ready before the morning of the 4th.  And until I hear it from the cops about the suppose chase with the red mustang and white truck. I don't put much stock in that. I feel sure Kaine has been checked out from one end to the other and LE knows exactly where he was that morning.

As for security in the parking lot, those big poles with lights on them....they also have cameras. Look at any Walmart parking lot.

[Puzzler]

So if it had been a couple of weeks since Kyron had seen Desiree then whatever he overheard or walked in on had happened in the past two weeks before or since his last visit to Desiree's.

I still think something happened in March to Terri..she was being threatened or she realized she had found the person to make Kaine dead.  Either could have made her start drinking and look stressed.

I have wondered if she was drinking or taking drugs.  Some drugs make your looks go fairly quickly.  James was gone - I could see her becoming stressed and unhappy about that - and if she and Kaine weren't getting along, as well, and/or their marriage got worse after James left because Terri was so unhappy her son was gone.  I could see the unhappy marriage and your son gone from your life might have been a catalyst for drinking or doing drugs.  There's a possibility, too, that she might have become sick or have some illness we don't know about, but I lean more to drugs or drinking.

[klaasend]

Flymonkey does DeDe have her computer back yet? 

If I remember right the warrant is running out so I was wondering about it.

She has posted/commented on the Terri Horman Support Facebook recently

[klaasend]

Flymonkey - I have to admit that when I look at the smug look on DeDe's face I want to slap her.  You would think that knowing that Kyron was still missing she could restrain herself and hide her smugness.   

[Brandi]

So if it had been a couple of weeks since Kyron had seen Desiree then whatever he overheard or walked in on had happened in the past two weeks before or since his last visit to Desiree's.

I still think something happened in March to Terri..she was being threatened or she realized she had found the person to make Kaine dead.  Either could have made her start drinking and look stressed.

I have wondered if she was drinking or taking drugs.  Some drugs make your looks go fairly quickly.  James was gone - I could see her becoming stressed and unhappy about that - and if she and Kaine weren't getting along, as well, and/or their marriage got worse after James left because Terri was so unhappy her son was gone.  I could see the unhappy marriage and your son gone from your life might have been a catalyst for drinking or doing drugs.  There's a possibility, too, that she might have become sick or have some illness we don't know about, but I lean more to drugs or drinking.

You know, I don't think Terri was upset or stressed about James leaving. I believe they were not getting along well, and Terri herself made arrangements to send him away. And she may have even been relieved he was no longer living with her.

JMO.

[Deenie]

FlyMonkey, All Monkeys

I don't know how smart TH is. But I can say that from just reading her bio that was in the newspaper. She knows how to plan. She has on her facebook something to that effect. Her own written words. That she loves to Plan and Organize. I can't say what she wrote verbatim. Something of that is one thing she enjoys ..

She has jumped from step 10 and quits.. gone back achieved to not rank to her expectations. Dropped things, started in new directions to repeat the same expectations/failures. All is normal if your a young adult. But when your in your 30's and going into a 3rd marriage ..
I dunno. Sounds like she expects things to be " easier or even fantasy, when reality hits suddenly it was not such a great idea in the first place " .. Maybe that was Kaine?
The body building/weight lifting is commendable. I really have to say for going from " average gal" to compete in the Emerald 35+ and over class ..that is a huge achievement. Just to get there to qualify was a huge achievement. Which shows when she wants something, she is able to focus and create a program and stick to it. However it seems it was short lived.  If she went in originally to tone up and get into shape, get healthy ..and some how she was swayed to taking it to another level.. Idk.
(( got serious into diet pills etc and meeting up with who?? at the gym))

It just amazes me how much she changed " physically" within a years time. ( even with her Pregnancy with Kiara/which she appeared to snap back rather quickly) Something though I noticed within her "life patterns" every time she has had a child it was within " times of uncertain" it seems. With James (Husbands/Financial issues/ugly child support wars),
 Kyron ( moving in with Kaine, before the little guy was born, Kaine still married- )
and then Kiara .. she/TH seemed to be in a mode of life " I am broke, unhappy, can't find a job, and I hardly ever see my husband/he is at work" .. and bam she finds out she is pg with Kiara. Now she is really glued to the house and home.  (wondering if she was planning on Divorcing Kaine prior to finding out she was pregnant/ If that was the real reason for rebuilding her body/ possibly she had given her marriage in her mind an ultimatum if things do not change by such date I am outta here, I will take him for 1/2 and scoot on my merry way) 
 
Seems she like to lives in orderly chaos, or that is her normal. Some people crave that drama. Me personally I rather live by myself..comes a time in your life you just gotta say " NO, and if life is going in the wrong direction.. Ask for some Help, try to turn it in the right direction, instead of destroying everything ..of the present and future. Which is why I don't understand, why not file for a Divorce from KH? Idk. Casey Anthony in her little " Bubble World" she lived in all her life, I honestly believe she felt she had nothing to lose by killing Caylee. Because that is how Casey operates. And she is as Sane as the Day is long in my opinion.

Something hit full tilt within the last 6-9 mos ..with her/Kaine...and she snapped or cracked along the way ...and the her personality started reverting back to being a " Teenager" a total loss of cognitive thinking. Wondering Who she made new relationships with, meaning Men?? Casey went out and partied it up after she killed Caylee. Why I think Casey did that was " if she was arrested" at least she was going out with a bang.. Wonder if Terri thought the same of Michael Cook ..in case something happened at least she got some " man attention" ..bec she knew Kaine wasn't coming near her.
( Irregardless that Kyron was missing/It didn't stop Casey that Caylee was missing)
Very Messed up.  Losing Kiara was the keystone.. I feel so bad for Kiara. She didn't deserve this, Just Like Kyron didn't either.
 

[seemeatthebeach]

I recieved this email from an WS member that wanted to clear some things up.  They told me it was OK to share

Personally, I am not much of a believer in Astrology pertaining to these cases but I happen to agree with most of their deductions/readings:

I hate to bother you again but the Websleuths astrologers have worked long and hard, garnering quite a reputation and following.  I hate to see their credibility damaged because ABT (Anyone But Terri) became the theme of Scared Monkeys while you were away.  First, Puzzler posted that "all" of the astros agree Kyron's case is a "sexually motivated" crime.  This morning, Puzzler specifically claims Tuba opined this in post #488.
 
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8606.msg1238861#msg1238861
 
Would you please be so kind as to ask Puzzler to post links when citing the astrologers?  I've looked and looked and nowhere do I see Tuba writing anything even close.  In fact, Tuba posted this:
 
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5374954&postcount=550
 
"Yes, showing an intuitive or a psychic tie between father & son would be an interesting topic. Go right ahead. As for sexual motivation, I am the wrong astrologer to defend or explain that as I never saw it in the chart. I did see severe betrayal, even treachery. Also, something I would like to clear up because it may have caused confusion although no one has ever asked.
..."
 
Soulscape,suggested within the first few days this may be a sexually motivated crime but has since backed off on that, iirc. 
 
Soulscape's post dated 6/8/2010:  http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5263902&postcount=13
 
Tuba cautioned that more information is needed:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5271299&postcount=18
 
Like Darla posted, while you were away, I often, in fact mostly, found myself shaking my head in disbelief and echoing Darla's, "nuh uh" and "seriously?!?"  I hope you find time to go back and read what went on, including mocking a poster for opining that many crimes are motivated by either sex or money.  Shades of Aruba and the "Anyone But Joran" crew.  Like Natalee, Kyron's is a, "no body no case" situation.  There is no crime scene or evidence to show what happened to Kyron because Terri did not murder him in the truck or home.  We don't know if she murdered him or what.  That is the "concrete evidence" being sought by LE.  Oregon is not Aruba; there is no grand conspiracy to frame innocent security guards (or stepmothers) in order to protect the real culprit. 
 
Tuba has been very clear in writing what the stars say about Terri Horman's guilt and I would be happy to provide many posts to prove it.  This primary point is one that all astrologers really do agree about.  Maybe this isn't cited so much because it doesn't fit the ABT point as well as the astrologically disfavored "sexual motivation." 
 
Please feel free to post any part of this email other than the address/identifiers.  And thanks very much for reading this and hopefully asking for a link from Puzzler.
 
One more thing, for those who believe in astrology yet still want to "suspect" Kaine, butterfly1978 posted:
 
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5375479&postcount=554
 
"In my opinion Kaine had absolutely NOTHING to do with Kyron missing, and its my belief that Kaine mind knows Kyrons fate, his heart may not except it but his mind knows and I believe that he is going over this in his mind constantly. In Kaines chart his Mercury squares his Neptune, which means he lets his imagination go wild, and when a problem comes up he plays the events over and over in his mind, and when he comes to a conclusion in his mind its hard to convince him otherwise.
His personality is the type that appears cold or unemotional but Kaine has Great Love for Kyron, you can see this in the natal charts with Venus conjuct Uranus and also Venus Trine Saturn, the harmony between Kaine and Kyron is amazing Kaine has a tremendous amout of love for Kyron and feels a great amount of responsibility for Kyron. Kaine and Kyron as we say around here are two peas in a pod. They have several aspects that point to not only psychic ties but also mutual interests. You can see this in the natal charts with Mercury sextile Neptune, Jupiter trine Neptune, Jupiter conjunt Uranus, Mars trine Sun.
I am convinced that Kaine felt that something bad happened to Kyron, he probably tried to push this idea out of his head, but I believe this may be why Kaine came home early that day and why Kaine went down to the bus stop to meet Kyron.

As I've said before I'm not very articulate but I hope I put this in terms everyone can understand."
 
Ok, last one -- Tuba believes the murder for hire plot happened:
 
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5381632&postcount=580
 
"What I can tell you about the murder for hire is that the solicitor is under a progressed Full Moon. This is when partnerships, marriages, engagements, trade relations, etc. tend to come apart. Sure, Full Moons are climactic moments but the Moon is pulling one way and the Sun, the other. Relations may endure but if they do, they are stretched at the seams in a telling way. However, the solictor has a high tension complex between malefics right at the site of her progressed Full Moon: Mars conjunct Saturn opposite Jupiter in Scorpio. Therefore, all of this was deadly serious. There were problems outside of where a child resides; bigger issues than that. It is a felony to solicit murder by another hand. "

Thanks for posting Klaas!

All I'm going to say is I'm glad you're back from your mini-vacation....I had to bite my tongue more than a few times reading some of the posts.

Congrats on your new beautiful grandbaby!

[klaasend]

Thanks Seeme 

[Desdemona]

I have wondered if she was drinking or taking drugs.  Some drugs make your looks go fairly quickly.  James was gone - I could see her becoming stressed and unhappy about that - and if she and Kaine weren't getting along, as well, and/or their marriage got worse after James left because Terri was so unhappy her son was gone.  I could see the unhappy marriage and your son gone from your life might have been a catalyst for drinking or doing drugs.  There's a possibility, too, that she might have become sick or have some illness we don't know about, but I lean more to drugs or drinking.

You know, I don't think Terri was upset or stressed about James leaving. I believe they were not getting along well, and Terri herself made arrangements to send him away. And she may have even been relieved he was no longer living with her.

JMO.

Or, if it is true (as we have heard) that she lied to her gym friends about who sent James away and why, could getting him out of the house and out of Portland have been one step in a plan she had set in motion?  Deenie has pointed out this "planning" "organizing" nature that she herself admits.  There are so many questions, and so few answers here.

[Puzzler]

One thing I will say about KH and Intel is that I would bet he never left that compound during his timeline given.

From looking at the video clip of the workers walking around with ID badges hanging from their necks to cards with reader strips (most tuck these behind the ID badge for added security);  I would bet it's a card swipe system.  Like Datawatch or something.  I worked at ATF headquarters in Wash DC for many years and I can tell you that this building appears to have the same security measures in place.

Card swipes at all floors to access entry to work area's.  Think back to the cleaning guy at the Yale University who killed the student and stuffed her in the wall.  They knew where they were from card swipes at entry doors within the bdlg.  I would bet Intel is the same. 

I would further say that the security did not stop with the interior of the bdlg.  Those posts in front of the bdlg are post 911 idealogy of cars being driven near the bdlg with bombs on board.  They are there to stop cars from getting near the bdlg.  You can bet they have camara's in that parking lot with extra's directly aimed at road entry and exits.  JMO.

They would know if KH was not there and they would know if car swapping took place.  JMO.

O/T but I can still remember bitching a fit when working there because you could only use the stairs one way and that was down and out. 

I completely agree about Intel..there is no way, no how they don't know exactly what is happening at all times in the parking lot and the building.

Kaine passed his LDT..and no one has come forward to say he didn't know where he was or what he was doing, or that his timeline didn't match up.

Intel is a tech company appropriately cognizant of industrial theft and espionage. There is absolutely no way anyone enters or leaves any of those buildings without leaving a digital mark. I would be surprised if their swipe badges did not have proximity chips (utilized by some hospitals which are far less secure). I bet they know when one of their employees uses the restroom.

I think you're probably correct about the tech company having plenty of security.  Last night Brandi enlarged one of the pictures of the Intel buildings and it looks like security cameras on top of the building and overlooking the parking lot.  I had no doubt there would be all kinds of security entering the building and inside the building.  But had wondered about the parking lot.  Now I believe there's cameras overlooking the large parking lot, too.  I'm sure that Intel would know about Kaine's movements into the building, too.

Does anyone know if you have to swipe a card to "leave" the building?  The company I work for, you have all these security measures (even to enter the restrooms) but not to "leave" the building.   

I don't recall reading anything being released to the public by Intel or LE about any specifics about Kaine that day at Intel one way or the other.  I believe the probability is great that Kaine went to work and stayed there all morning until 1:45 p.m., but he did have plenty of time to leave during the morning and go back to work before leaving for the day at 1:45.  Just like the building has security cameras overlooking the parking area and, hopefully, there's tape of that day, but the cameras could have not been working that day.  We can't be positive of that until we hear from LE or Intel.  Am glad, though, that there could be camera footage of the parking area.  That would discount a lot of questions to be able to prove that red mustang sat in the parking lot until 1:45 p.m. 

[Deenie]

I have to agree with Klaas, that is a Smug Look.. on Dede.
Um like the Cat that swallowed the Canary .. 

Seems many people have said the same, not even knowing who she is within Kyron's case.
Its the facial expression along with the body language ..the saunter and sway while she is walking. It's not cool.
jmo.

[Puzzler]

I have wondered if she was drinking or taking drugs.  Some drugs make your looks go fairly quickly.  James was gone - I could see her becoming stressed and unhappy about that - and if she and Kaine weren't getting along, as well, and/or their marriage got worse after James left because Terri was so unhappy her son was gone.  I could see the unhappy marriage and your son gone from your life might have been a catalyst for drinking or doing drugs.  There's a possibility, too, that she might have become sick or have some illness we don't know about, but I lean more to drugs or drinking.

You know, I don't think Terri was upset or stressed about James leaving. I believe they were not getting along well, and Terri herself made arrangements to send him away. And she may have even been relieved he was no longer living with her.

JMO.

Or, if it is true (as we have heard) that she lied to her gym friends about who sent James away and why, could getting him out of the house and out of Portland have been one step in a plan she had set in motion?  Deenie has pointed out this "planning" "organizing" nature that she herself admits.  There are so many questions, and so few answers here.

Well, if Terri was doing all this plotting and planning for so many months, I would think that would made you stressed out...it would me...in fact, I know I couldn't do that at all...to that would put a person under a lot of stress I would think.  Accckkkk!!

[fatcatlurker]

Flymonkey does DeDe have her computer back yet? 

If I remember right the warrant is running out so I was wondering about it.

She has posted/commented on the Terri Horman Support Facebook recently

hmmm I'm pretty sure that's the 2nd time I asked her that question and got no response?  She said DeDe was posting to thsp with her smartphone.  With all the electronic usage in this case I would guess they still have it but who knows...just curious. 

[nicubird]

I have wondered if she was drinking or taking drugs.  Some drugs make your looks go fairly quickly.  James was gone - I could see her becoming stressed and unhappy about that - and if she and Kaine weren't getting along, as well, and/or their marriage got worse after James left because Terri was so unhappy her son was gone.  I could see the unhappy marriage and your son gone from your life might have been a catalyst for drinking or doing drugs.  There's a possibility, too, that she might have become sick or have some illness we don't know about, but I lean more to drugs or drinking.

You know, I don't think Terri was upset or stressed about James leaving. I believe they were not getting along well, and Terri herself made arrangements to send him away. And she may have even been relieved he was no longer living with her.

JMO.

Or, if it is true (as we have heard) that she lied to her gym friends about who sent James away and why, could getting him out of the house and out of Portland have been one step in a plan she had set in motion?  Deenie has pointed out this "planning" "organizing" nature that she herself admits.  There are so many questions, and so few answers here.

I believe that sending James away was part of the plan. It is very difficult to hide anything from a teen. I believe she needed him to be away and set a foundation of lies to accomplish that task. It was amusing to find that when her friends started "comparing notes," it was discovered that she told several different versions of why James needed to be sent away. It is so much easier to lie successfully when your life is compartmentalized. When your life becomes an open and very public book, the lies become glaringly obvious.

[Desdemona]

As for Flymonkey's comment, I will add to others' replies:  that if Terri's presumed lack of genius is the stumbling block, IMO that is not a very significant stumbling block at all.  All it takes is a capacity for evil, a target, a plan, and an opportunity.  Terri is obviously not stupid, and yet many stupid evildoers have managed to stump investigators and even get away with crimes.  I agree that genius is not a criterion; not by a long shot. 

I am very curious about this assessment of Terri's level of intelligence which Flymonkey has posted.  Is the opinion coming from Flymonkey personally?  or passed along from DeDe?  If the former, is FM relying on personal knowledge of Terri as a friend?  If the latter, does Terri know that her supposedly loyal friend is spreading the word online that Terri is no mental giant?  Just wondering.

[Desdemona]

FWIW, I just re-watched the Dateline segment on Kyron.

(Link:) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38420266

I had forgotten about the really good shots of the school from inside and out, from all different angles.  Wow.  Definitely gave me some food for thought as to methods that might have been used to get Kyron out of the school without raising red flags or suspicion.

IMO, it is worthwhile to revisit this show; I got a lot more out of it the second time around.  Poor little Kyron!  I feel really awful for his family.  Their pain is palpable IMO.

May Kyron and the truth be found soon.  I have a feeling (and a hope) that justice is closer than we know.  BFN.

[Deenie]

I have wondered if she was drinking or taking drugs.  Some drugs make your looks go fairly quickly.  James was gone - I could see her becoming stressed and unhappy about that - and if she and Kaine weren't getting along, as well, and/or their marriage got worse after James left because Terri was so unhappy her son was gone.  I could see the unhappy marriage and your son gone from your life might have been a catalyst for drinking or doing drugs.  There's a possibility, too, that she might have become sick or have some illness we don't know about, but I lean more to drugs or drinking.

You know, I don't think Terri was upset or stressed about James leaving. I believe they were not getting along well, and Terri herself made arrangements to send him away. And she may have even been relieved he was no longer living with her.

JMO.

Or, if it is true (as we have heard) that she lied to her gym friends about who sent James away and why, could getting him out of the house and out of Portland have been one step in a plan she had set in motion?  Deenie has pointed out this "planning" "organizing" nature that she herself admits.  There are so many questions, and so few answers here.

Hi Desi Yah, I have to say " No one, Not One person, do I know "personally" lives in a perfect world or are 100% happy. If they were they would be a trillionare because they could " Bottle and Sell it" ..what ever is the " answer to happiness" ..
So much here is unknown. And as speculated we all think that TH was having " issues" or there were " issues" creating cause and effect within her life that has led to Kyron's disappearance.

Which then turns into a new chapter of WHAT, WHO and WHY and then add the unbearable silence. So frustrating. I have to say though what ever you throw out to the Universe over time, its going to catch up with you..one way or another. Good, Bad or Ugly. Meaning TH like everyone, everything we do as individuals effects " everyone and everything" within the world.

Yet, there are some people (possibly TH) who seriously do not " realize" what they have done until its too late. Not out of ignorance, and or opposite..they simply do not " acknowledge" what they do is cause and effect. They live in their own little entitled world.. and they go on through life without care or concern..leaving their toxic footprints/pain. Thinking someone will clean it up ..they simply do not care. Not until it effects them directly..now your playing a new game..and these people will do anything to win..or for them to come out on top.
We see them on the news all the time. Usually in Orange Jumpsuits