A Mormon in the White House

[crazybabyborg]

Just a footnote: I too have Morman friends, and nothing in their character or nature raises an eyebrow from me at all. Having said that, I once found myself in a hotel room and reached for the customary Gideon Bible, only to find the Morman Bible instead. Out of curiosity, I spent several hours going through it, looking particularly for some of the cornerstones to my Christian faith so apparent in my Bible. Morman teachings aren't just "interpretatively" different. There are huge, foundational differences in Mormanism and Christianity.

As Christians, we have the promise that the sacrifice Christ made on the cross paid for our sins and that through acceptance of Him as our personal Savior, we are covered in His "Blood of righteousness". Therefore, in the same way that old testament believers sacrificed unblemished animals so that the blood was poured out on the mercy seat (the actual lid of the ark containing the tablets of Law), the blood "covered" our shortcomings so that we were reconciled to God and acceptable to Him. Nothing seperates us from God, and we are co-inheritors with Christ: brothers.

That's pretty "core" to Christianity. According to Mormanism, all believers are not equal in their opportunity for proximity to God. I'm no expert on Mormanism, but would simply say that polygamy isn't the only or primary difference.

The most obvious is the criteria source for the text that makes up the canon. There were very strict guidelines set by the early church as to what would be included. First consideration was given to those actual eye witnesses of the events and person of Jesus; Revelation only made it in on the weight of John. At the time, the "vision" was so radically different that it was considered too foreign to be reliable. Up until the last 15 years there was varying schools of thought on whether it actually came from the disciple John, or was added much later. That has been dismissed with the discovery of writings dating to within 60AD containing the text.

A look at the biography of Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormanism and author of the Morman Bible, is worth the time. You can draw your own conclusions from what you find.

[nonesuche]

I don't know if any of you had the chance to view 60 minutes last night but Mitt was featured and I felt did a very good job of maturely addressing these concerns.

He did a great job overall, shied away from no hard-hitting questions with politicaldoubletalk either. He also talked a good bit regarding applying business principles and change management to our government, something I've been a proponent for with our public schools for many years. I've worked for the federal government, DOD many years ago, I left for I felt no sense of accomplishment even within my area of nuclear disaster assistance planning. The only way to describe it is pure inertia.  

He also didn't sling dirt at any other candidate which impressed me. It's apparent he doesn't feel the need to do that, he's confident in his own abilities. He also was forgiving referring to the need for change within policy-making and decisions. I believe as he said, that no decisions are absolute as they once were. Our world moves so fast with so many influences globally, that to think we can make absolute decisions without benchmark revisions is totally unrealistic.

He also said he feels we will know what the outcome of our troops in Iraq should be relatively soon, at the very least by year's end. He seems to feel how Iraq demonstrates their own commitment to democracy will make or break our commitment. I think this is the best possible approach.

If the election were today Mitt would have my vote, that's how good a job I felt he did in this interview. He is a leader, he exudes leadership and a fair measure of smarts plus servant leadership.

[Tylergal]

I think we must lay our prejudices aside when it comes to religion.  I would vote for either Mitt or Joe Leiberman in a heart beat and neither shares my religion, but my values.

There are several people in this race for whom I could vote, but Mitt seems to have the right stuff.   He is not impulsive, and he has great moral character and is obviously very good with finances as he took the Big Dig in Massachusetts to a winner from a losing situation.  How many years did that take?  It was nothing magical, just required discipline and right thinking.

His wife and he seem to be the typical American couple who fell in love very young, married and have remained monogomous and he is very supportive of her, especially through her illness and the depression that goes with it.  I have a husband who was like that and I know what that means to women --- to have a man by her side who actually cares for her because she is a part of him and the head of the family in his absence, which for Mitt, is frequent since he takes on so many projects for the greater good.

[LouiseVargas]

Mitt Romney is on the cover of the May 21, 2007 issue of Time Magazine. There is an article inside. He looks like a president to me and I think he is gaining ground. I've heard some of his promos on TV and he sounds fearless. I like him a lot.

So, if we accept Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Mormons, why were we or why are we so scared of Obama's possible ties to Islam and his ties to a black church?

[nonesuche]

Louise,

Since I was the first poster to refer to those ties for Obama, originally the drive for reparations from his church's doctrine disturbed me most of all. I think the last thing our nation needs is more party lines or racial lines. As for his ties to muslim heritage, all that matters is if this ties him to radical factions and I don't think anyone can prove that it does at this point in time.

What I have found more disappointing and concerning, is Obama's reliance upon charisma and not a track record of substance and length or a platform that is well defined and prioritized. Of all I've read of transcripts of his speeches it's very generalist and I don't think that's what I as a voter want to hear. Now more than ever I want details, I want to know not just what our next president wants to achieve but HOW he plans to achieve it?

I just haven't heard that from him........yet.

[nonesuche]

oh and a footnote, it bothers me greatly this nasty back and forth he and Hillary have - IMO it's beneath them and it honestly reminds me of Rush Limbaugh tactics.  

[mrs. red]

oh and a footnote, it bothers me greatly this nasty back and forth he and Hillary have - IMO it's beneath them and it honestly reminds me of Rush Limbaugh tactics.  

and as I recall LV, you even stated after seeing him in person there in LA... that he was basically all talk and no substance.

There is a difference IMO about disregarding a candiate for how they view  their beliefs, ie. Catholic, Jewish, Mormon, Protestant, etc.... and a church that supports such retoric that we saw on the website stating Obama's church's misson.

The reason I personally object to a Muslim President?  Because the Koran states emphatically that if one does not believe in ALLAH they should be killed.... the Bible does not say to kill all those that would not be Christian...  

Like it or not, that is their belief and I don't think it's incompatiable to my way of life to be killed for my "unbelief"...

[LouiseVargas]

Yes, Mrs., I did say he was all talk and no substance. I was thinking of voting for him if he made it all the way to become the democratic candidate. After seeing him at the rally, I changed my mind. However, he is becoming more practiced and experienced and is a real threat to Hillary. They are mortal enemies fighting for the nomination. He has more charisma than she does. Have we established yet that Obama IS a Muslim? And if he were and got elected, how long do you think it would be before he started killing non Muslims?

If the Bible does not say to kill all non Christians, then what happened during the Inquisition in Spain? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

[A's Fever]

oh and a footnote, it bothers me greatly this nasty back and forth he and Hillary have - IMO it's beneath them and it honestly reminds me of Rush Limbaugh tactics.  

and as I recall LV, you even stated after seeing him in person there in LA... that he was basically all talk and no substance.

There is a difference IMO about disregarding a candiate for how they view  their beliefs, ie. Catholic, Jewish, Mormon, Protestant, etc.... and a church that supports such retoric that we saw on the website stating Obama's church's misson.

The reason I personally object to a Muslim President?  Because the Koran states emphatically that if one does not believe in ALLAH they should be killed.... the Bible does not say to kill all those that would not be Christian...  

Like it or not, that is their belief and I don't think it's incompatiable to my way of life to be killed for my "unbelief"...

IIRC, in The End of Faith Sam Harris does argue that the Bible says that very thing.

All text is subject to interpretation.  I am sure certain passages of any sacred text can be taken and twisted to militant ends, that does not mean that the majority of people of that faith are violent or interpret the text in the same way.  It is the militant extremists we have to be concerned about.  Does the abortion clinic/Olympic bomber exemplify the Christian faith around the world?

In all seriousness, do you really believe that all Muslims in this country seek to destroy our way of life??  All should be placed under suspicion??

It is possible, of course.  But before converting to that camp I sure would like to learn more about what Muslim scholars have to say about such textual passages.  I would also like to know what your typical American Muslim imam is preaching at the mosque.  Are they concentrating on promoting hatred?

[mrs. red]

I am talking about the Koran itself... not a book about the Koran...

give me the passage in the Bible where it states that we are to kill nonChristians....


LV, you are right that he is more charismatic than Hillary, but IMO so are stinky tennis shoes....     I do believe that there are mosques in our very country that preach this hatred... I think I posted a link on another page written by Larry Elder who interviewed some one from the middle east that essentially said what I am saying is true....

NOW I do not think that all Muslims are trying to kill us.... that I truly don't believe  - but just like with Christians there are some that make crazy assertions.... I just don't know if I trust Obama not to be one of the crazier ones... just by the fact that it's hidden or even that his Church seems so militant... I could be wrong.... wouldn't be the first time...

but as a whole, I fear what lies sleeping in this country and I fear what is happening in TURKEY... which only proves that we need to stay and stabilize Iraq... Turkey was pretty much run by secularist... but now the militant Muslims are trying to take over and the people are facing serious challenges...

[LouiseVargas]

Mrs.Red,

Please clarify your statements.

1) "The reason I personally object to a Muslim President? Because the Koran states emphatically that if one does not believe in ALLAH they should be killed. "

I asked you how long you thought it would be before Obama started killing non Muslims?

2) You replied "NOW I do not think that all Muslims are trying to kill us .... that I truly don't believe."  "I just don't know if I trust Obama not to be one of the crazier ones."

That was a flip flop of the first water.  Do you or do you not feel Muslims via Obama will be rushing to kill us? If you don't think so, then what is your problem with Obama. What is the reason?

Please clarify your two statements above.

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I also fear what lies sleeping in our country but I'm not going to spend my life worrying about it. If anything terrorist happens near me, I will bide my time and I will never be taken alive.  That is, unless I get wiped out in the first wave.

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I perceive you as an intelligent and serious person when it comes to politics. So what propels you to say this: "LV, you are right that he is more charismatic than Hillary, but IMO so are stinky tennis shoes...." Mrs.Red, what is the path that leads you from serious  political discussions to talk about stinky tennis shoes? Your statement is crude and exhibits less than an expected degree of maturity. It beats me.  Can you explain? Tennis shoes may be important in the case of Joran but has nothing to do with American politics.

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And speaking of Turkey, they are not to be trusted. Have you heard of the Armenian Genocide  also known as the Armenian Holocaust?  The Turks deported and massacred over a million Armenians during the government of the Young Turks from 1915 to 1917 in the Ottoman Empire. Armenians were the first middle east race to become Christians.  

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Further, on the matter of the bible saying Christians should not kill others, the Germans killed 6 million Jews because they were NOT Christian.  

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No religion is perfect.

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My Lutheran husband to be, took me for a talk with the Pastor (whose goal was to convert me.)  I must have had hundreds of Christians trying to convert me over my lifetime (which I considered personal assaults).  He said some very intelligent and logical things. I told him I would never convert. He told my husband that if he could behave Christ-like in his actions towards me, then I would understand Christianity and the love of Christ. I was wowed. I thought it made perfect sense. But my husband forgot about being Christ-like the moment we left the Pastor's office.

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I could write more but I won't.  He was a supposedly Lutheran/Christian but he could not in any way emulate a Christian.

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That's all. It's my opinion.

[nonesuche]

Louise,

I am not Mrs Red but I have to say a few things here. I hope you will also know what I have to say isn't directed at you personally either, but rather to the banter I see that is so negative and challenging to her in your post.

I think the point she's trying to make regarding stinky tennis shoes is that charisma is great, many strong leaders have strong charisma, but some charisma is corrupt as well. The issue becomes is this what drives an election? In times past and Clinton is a good one to point to, indeed it has. Should that be the defining factor in who is elected? Heavens no, their platform value and their capability to lead with strong alliance and decision-making skills should be.

Mrs believes (IMO) as I do, that this truly is a most defining moment for our country. Who we elect for president may well make or break our country. So she's trying to get that point across Louise, please try to understand that is rooted in her passion for our country and protecting our country.

I've been frustrated at times with your references to charisma within Obama and even your statement that Romney "looks presidential". I really don't feel either of those criteria will assist us in electing the best person for the job, not this time around. The stakes are so high..........we have to get this one right. When I say 'right' I mean we have to elect someone who can not allow partisanship to drive political decisions; someone with the experience base to tackle the challenges with some degree of success in their previous track record in these areas; someone willing to make hard decisions and adapt those to drive toward what is best for our country's survival and prosperity; and someone who can balance budgets and build global alliances.

It's a tall order and it's going to take one heckuva person to fill that order. I just hope as I think Mrs does, that our voters realize this and base their votes upon solid criteria for leadership.

[pdh3]

oh and a footnote, it bothers me greatly this nasty back and forth he and Hillary have - IMO it's beneath them and it honestly reminds me of Rush Limbaugh tactics.  

and as I recall LV, you even stated after seeing him in person there in LA... that he was basically all talk and no substance.

There is a difference IMO about disregarding a candiate for how they view  their beliefs, ie. Catholic, Jewish, Mormon, Protestant, etc.... and a church that supports such retoric that we saw on the website stating Obama's church's misson.

The reason I personally object to a Muslim President?  Because the Koran states emphatically that if one does not believe in ALLAH they should be killed.... the Bible does not say to kill all those that would not be Christian...  

Like it or not, that is their belief and I don't think it's incompatiable to my way of life to be killed for my "unbelief"...

IIRC, in The End of Faith Sam Harris does argue that the Bible says that very thing.

All text is subject to interpretation.  I am sure certain passages of any sacred text can be taken and twisted to militant ends, that does not mean that the majority of people of that faith are violent or interpret the text in the same way.  It is the militant extremists we have to be concerned about.  Does the abortion clinic/Olympic bomber exemplify the Christian faith around the world?

In all seriousness, do you really believe that all Muslims in this country seek to destroy our way of life??  All should be placed under suspicion??

It is possible, of course.  But before converting to that camp I sure would like to learn more about what Muslim scholars have to say about such textual passages.  I would also like to know what your typical American Muslim imam is preaching at the mosque.  Are they concentrating on promoting hatred?

This blanket condemnation of all Muslims reminds me of the internment camps for Japanese-Americans during WWll.
It seems as though some people, out of fear, ignorance, or hysteria, want to embrace that same kind of mentality.
I'd also want indisputable proof that every Muslim living in the US is participating in some great conspiracy, and that they intend to destroy our way of life.
I do believe that there are some terror cells operating here, but I think any group without a soul can be bought, and would be willing to cause great harm to innocent Americans. Look at Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, and Michael Fortier. They were certainly not Muslim, yet they murdered 168 innocent people, including many children. Their agenda made no sense to any rational, moral person, but there are still a few out there who might agree with their views. What should we do about that sector of Americans who are anarchists?
We face terrorism threats from many different sectors of the world. All countries have to realize that there are people who use violence to threaten and manipulate. It's a world-wide problem, and it is used by many factions, not just Muslims.
We could all be blown up tomorrow by a group with an agenda we've never heard about, so my viewpoint is that we need to focus on Islamic
extremists, as well as others.

[LouiseVargas]

Thanks None, for trying to clarify. My comments in reference to stinky tennis shoes is not the major issue.

Charisma IS a major issue. We are intelligent people but I don't think we are the majority. The common man will elect the president. They may not examine the issues and most likely vote for someone who presents themselves well. Of course I understand that this election is a defining moment for our country. I wish us good luck. Again, I say I don't believe we can do anything to protect our country. Too late.

Regarding Romney, I said he was on the cover of Time, and on the cover it said "He looks like a president." Not my statement, but rather Time's statement.

I'm still pondering the question that has not been addressed. I'm sorry to keep asking and I'm damn sorry that I have to be sorry. There have been many posts saying generally .... "We can't have a Muslim president because Muslims want to kill Americans." I certainly don't want to pin anyone to the wall but prior to Mrs. changing her stance, she pinned me to the wall on my posts regarding Obama.

I know posts from Mrs. are rooted in her passion for our country and protecting our country.  My views are also rooted in my passion for my country. I was born an Army brat. My first six years were spent in Army bases around the world. I grew up hearing 'Taps' in the morning and 'Revely' in the evening.  Troops in uniform. The flag, etc.

***************
1) "The reason I personally object to a Muslim President? Because the Koran states emphatically that if one does not believe in ALLAH they should be killed. "
2) Mrs. replied "NOW I do not think that all Muslims are trying to kill us .... that I truly don't believe." "I just don't know if I trust Obama not to be one of the crazier ones."

[nonesuche]

Louise,

You hit my biggest fear on the head, it frightens me how many 'average' voters might well vote for charisma or some arbitrary reason, without thinking through what a critical moment this is and what that requires from all of us as voters.

It is interesting to see the continuing debate regarding muslims for today I read an article how christians in Pakistan are being terrorized to convert now, they even receive notes "convert or die". Now they are forced to have police protection in their churches just so they can worship as christians? So IMO I think it's less Obama as the reason and moreso that with a muslim in our white house then we could risk seeing the radicals that do exist here eventually move to overtake all other religions in the US. When Mrs refers to donning a burka at times, this is exactly what she's referring to. If Obama isn't affiliated with radical extremist factions under covers it will be a personal injustice for him for that assumption to be made, but we also need to weigh risks against that and what's best for the common good as well. It's a very fine line, I don't have the answers either.

Radical extremist muslim factions do not appear to respect any religion but their own. We do need to proceed with caution and not allow them an ounce of toe-hold in the US.

[pdh3]

I have a family member who married a Mormon, and moved to Utah. She's lived there for 20 years, and is an objective ******* of Mormon life. I am close to her, and we have had many conversations about the cultural differences between Protestant Christianity, and the LDS. She has told me some things that concern me greatly. I also have known several Mormon families, and I would have as many reservations about Mitt Romney's religion as I would if he were a Muslim.
The Mormon Church is very close to being a cult organization, and they hold tremendous wealth and power in Utah. Poligamy is alive and well, although it is practiced quietly. Women are subservient, and are expected to have a large number of children. My former neighbors were  Mormon, and each family had 9 children. I have a close friend who is Morman, and she has 7 living, and one deceased child. She told me that Mormon families are so large because they are expected to have as many children as they can. While I applaud the focus on the family, I am concerned about the role women play in the Mormon Church. Women are not allowed to participate in the governing of the Church, and play a secondary role throughout the Mormon culture. The Church recruits for members in a cult-like manner, and is very secretive about how it operates.
Mitt Romney would be a disasterous candidate for women. For anyone with a daughter, a sister, a wife or Mother that you care deeply about, Mitt Romney should be the last person you'd vote for as a Presidential candidate. If he is a practicing Mormon, then he has the same beliefs that have caused my cousin so much distress.

[LouiseVargas]

Hello Nonesuche,

From your post,  "So IMO I think it's less Obama as the reason and moreso that with a Muslim in our white house then we could risk seeing the radicals that do exist here eventually move to overtake all other religions in the US."

Okay, you are still talking about a Muslim in the White House. There are a lot of words and labels being tossed around, most of them based on the assumption that Obama is a Muslim.

As I asked on May 15 ... have we established that Obama is a Muslim?

If we cannot establish that fact, then it's ridiculous to keep talking about a Muslim in the White House.

He says he is not a Muslim. No one has been able to prove his is a Muslim. Why in the world do you think he is a Muslim? Please tell me.

[Dihannah1]

Hello Nonesuche,

From your post,  "So IMO I think it's less Obama as the reason and moreso that with a Muslim in our white house then we could risk seeing the radicals that do exist here eventually move to overtake all other religions in the US."

Okay, you are still talking about a Muslim in the White House. There are a lot of words and labels being tossed around, most of them based on the assumption that Obama is a Muslim.

As I asked on May 15 ... have we established that Obama is a Muslim?

If we cannot establish that fact, then it's ridiculous to keep talking about a Muslim in the White House.

He says he is not a Muslim. No one has been able to prove his is a Muslim. Why in the world do you think he is a Muslim? Please tell me.

I'm going to interject here, but keep it short.  I'm probably stirring the pot, but I just have to give my 2 cents.  Aside from whether he is a muslim or not, there is still the fact, that I personally struggle with, and it's the radical church he attends.  I know you don't agree LV. I've stated my points before and do not want to go into it again, so won't.  But when I read the doctrine of that church and the fact he attends it, means he agrees with it..  So back to my original opinion of him, he is racist.... which will create even a larger divide and WE don't need that in our country, ESPECIALLY now.  I will never be swayed otherwise....

[nonesuche]

Dihannah- Thank you for highlighting one facet of his candidacy that concerns me greatly as well. I've seen the minister for this church on Hannity & Colmes twice now, it's disturbing to hear the anger and the demand for reparations. I hope others have watched him too.

pdh2- Had Mitt not 'mainstreamed' effectively into corporate and venture capital venues I might share your concern. If you dig into some of the companies his venture group invested within, you will see quite a few female executives which I think validates my contention. I also grew up with a Mormon family in our midst, they ran the local dry cleaning establishment and my sister was very close to their oldest child. Karen is her name and she is a successful trial attorney, so not all practicing Mormons cleave to every element of their historical doctrine? I think Mitt tried to make that point recently with his comments regarding polygamy.

Louise - I can't know firsthand if Obama is muslim, none of us can for he's given a variety of answers to that question throughout his life, but only since moving into politics has he chosen to state he's not? I didn't keep the links to some of this documentation but it's out there. It's the waffling and the half-truth's which concern me? My larger concern and fact of this is that he has chosen a more radical fundamentalist black church as his 'home' in the Trinity Church in Chicago. I think this exhibits that he is drawn to the fringe of religion that is more radical, even if it's Christianity.

For the record, I also would have never voted for Jerry Falwell for President. I hope this answers your question effectively?

[mrs. red]

NONE... thank you for speaking what I was saying.  I am glad you explained it so well....

as for the Mormons = my very best friend of 25 years is a Mormon and she runs her own business and has forever. Under the assumption of the radical Mormons this wouldn't be possible, -  

the fact is - and this was my point about Muslims as well LV, that every single religion, including Christianity has it's elements of extremism.  I have a good friend whose sister is a Christian that I promise pretty much all of you would agree with me if you knew her when I say this woman would make Jesus run from Christianity... and I in no way mean that as blasphemy, it's the truth.....

as for Muslims - my point is exactly what NONE said it was.... look at the other countries - France and Spain for example... they took that attitude of all Muslims aren't bad, and now France is fighting to take back it's country....it's like NONE said, we cannot be too careful...

some of the worst dictators and most evil rulers in this world came into power by using the guise of moderation, and biding their time until they were in control...

and finally DiHannah put the final nail on the head... all of this is why I would never vote for Obama... I don't trust him any more than I trust Hillary....  

she too is one I greatly fear... she will be an absolute nightmare for this country!