Kyron Horman, 7 years old PORTLAND, OR #33 10/07/10 - 10/17/10

[4 Donks]

It's all timing.  It's been like a chess game.  A war. 
The only thing Kaine could have done sooner would have been to put Kiara in protective custody.  Or, perhaps, get her a guardian ad litem.  If this is the case, and he got one for her, to protect her and speak for her best interests, perhaps that will come forward next.  Though it seems we would have heard, but probably not because she is a minor....

So, if she has a guardian ad litem... I'm sure TH's atty must know about this.  This is what we should find out next.... whether Kitty has her OWN representation, which is what she needs to protect her.

Anyway, he couldn't do anything other than the above before the hearing.  The divorce proceedings initiated all of this legally.  Prior to today, there was no custody because there was no divorce. 

I'll be surprised if Kitty doesn't have a guardian ad litem.  Frankly, I think this is why Kaine went to Intel legal at the very beginning.  This is the information he was seeking, IMO.  It was all about the divorce.

Sorry, you lost me.

The court granted Kaine sole temporary custody of Kiara back in June.  TERRI has to petition the court for custody which has not been done yet.  The reason it wasn't done is they wanted to make sure they could delay the divorce procedings because they know there will be more damnng information coming out about Terri.  Now that they know that hearing won't be until January 2011 they claim they will petition the court for visitation.

Correct.  I know, it's confusing.  But what I'm thinking is this:
Visitation/"parenting time" and custody are two different things. 
This is all JMO, understand. 
But, IMO, in Jan. they will have a custody hearing (which will be a more permanent thing.)  Sometime soon, though, today?  tomorrow?  (ASAP, I'm sure of that!) -- Terry will request parenting time.  And, this could begin very soon.  Supervised, probably.  I don't know if it will be today or ??? but very very soon. 

I don't see how she can be denied visitation ( right or wrong) She has never been named a POI, suspect and never been arrested for MFH or Kyron's disappearance.

[Claycat]

Can you imagine how hard it would be to let go of your daughter's hand to put it in the hand of your son's murderer??? I'm not sure if I were Kaine, I could do it. Terri does NOT need visitation until this is all resolved and accountability for Kyron is established!

ITA!

[Scatty]

You mean they didn't petition the court prior?  They just wanted to make sure the courts didn't have more damning information so they wanted to wait until after they received the Abatement? 

"Yet, if a divorce abatement is granted, Bunch said he'd asked the court to alter the current "no parenting time" restriction Terri Horman faces to allow some type of supervised, reasonable contact between Terri Horman and her daughter, Kiara."

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/10/judge_delays_terri_and_kaine_h.html

He was waiting to see if the abatement would be granted first?!

Colour me confused.

Evidence that would come out in the divorce proceding, the information LE told Kaine about Terri being responsible for Kyron missing and the MFH plot and other possible information we are not privy to would likely make the judge deny visitation.

But nothing has changed since the decision to grant Kaine sole temporary custody, right? Kiara would still be possible at risk with Terri, the MFH accusations still stand. At best for TH, she may get some supervised visitation IMO. Wouldn't the court have to appoint someone in that case? Now I'm wildly speculating, WAY in advance, but remember Christian Gerhardtstre...something (his alias was Clark Rockefeller), who snatched his daughter during a supervised visit? I could see TH getting someone to help her pull this type of thing off.

[klaasend]

http://twitter.com/KATUNews

 Court proceeding have resumed between Terri and Kaine Horman. Follow live notes here: http://www.katu.com/news/local/104507829.html     half a minute ago  via web  

(I think this could be old (an hour ago) news that was posted recently)

[Robyn621]

Thanks, klaasend. Sure wish we could watch this live. I guess I should just be thankful for Twitter.

[5150monkey]

MOO!
Scatty, I agree 100%.  The judge is aware that LE and Kaine both believe she did something to Kyron and tried MFH.  Stealing her daughter during a supervised visit would mean nothing to her.  IMO, she has no interest in her child, otherwise she would be willing to undergo the courts questions.  She won't though, because her admissions would send her straight to jail.

[Terri]

Good evening all,

I have been reading the posts every day.  I cannot believe how much I do not understand from today.  I am totally lost.
Would someone please explain these things to me?  Tonight may be a result of my detoxing from a prescribed medication and I will feel stupid in the morning, but this is not making sense.

- What could TH say during the divorce proceedings that would affect her rights?  What could they ask and what could she say that would be detrimental to her in the future?  Would KH's attorney ask her point blank if she was involved in the disappearance of Kyron or the MFH?
Couldn't she just say she pled the fifth? 

Wouldn't the fact these things are being said implicating TH?

- What has the court decided about the disclosure of the alledged $350,000 for attorney fees?  How can they "say" the money came from a third party without having to provide proof?

I apologize in advance if I sound dense. 

Terri

[Puzzler]

911 calls back to December?  Okay, what's that all about?

[Monkey King]

My vote is the delay to be granted and Terri be awarded visitation. Until this is all cleared up, I hope the judge awards SUPERVISED visitation and no over nights. Thinking back to all of the crazy rulings I have read about I pray this judge uses common sense in his decision today.

Hey TG~

Just want to say Good Job with getting those mandatory criminal backround checks at the school! 

[fatcatlurker]

911 calls back to December?  Okay, what's that all about?

Now.....what a good question Puzzler?!

[fatcatlurker]

I would say the Judge knows everything as he handled today and the RO:

The restraining order was sealed by Multnomah County Circuit Judge Keith Meisenheimer, who handles family law. However, the abuse prevent petition showed that Terri was not granted any time with their daughter and restricted from accessing firearms. The no firearms clause was routine in such cases, a court clerk said.

[Puzzler]

911 calls back to December?  Okay, what's that all about?

Now.....what a good question Puzzler?!

Back to December 26...the day after Christmas. 

[seemeatthebeach]

Judge delays Terri and Kaine Horman's divorce case until January, agrees Terri faces 'substantial legal risk'
Published: Thursday, October 07, 2010, 2:05 PM     Updated: Thursday, October 07, 2010, 3:22 PM
Maxine Bernstein, The Oregonian Maxine Bernstein, The Oregonian

Multnomah County Judge Keith Meisenheimer decided this afternoon to delay until Jan. 6 the divorce proceeding between Kaine Horman and Terri Moulton Horman.

The judge called the issues "extraordinary, difficult and complex," and unlike any that's come before state family law court.

He said he had to weigh Terri Horman's constitutional rights with Kaine Horman's interest in a prompt resolution of the custody, parenting and financial matters in the divorce.
 
He said Terri Horman's lawyers could return to him, if they sought to extend the divorce delay.
 
Meisenheimer said he was convinced there is a "substantial overlap at least in the relevancy of the evidence" in the pending civil case and the ongoing criminal investigation into Kyron's disappearance.


"Though it's pre-indictment, Ms. Horman has very substantial legal risk in the dissolution case," Meisenheimer said.

"The highest interest in this whole proceeding is to try to find the child alive," Meisenheimer said.

Terri Horman and Kaine Horman met in family law court for the first time today since Kaine Horman filed for divorce and obtained a restraining order against his wife.
 
Terri Horman's divorce attorney, Peter Bunch, asked the judge to hold the divorce proceedings in abatement while the criminal inquiry proceeds, but Kaine Horman's attorney protested any delay.
 
Bunch argued that a parallel civil divorce case, while the criminal investigation proceeds into Kyron's disappearance from Skyline School, would jeopardize Terri Horman's Fifth Amendment rights not to incriminate herself.
 
"Everything at issue in the divorce is fodder for the state in its forging of additional links in its evidence," Bunch said. "Virtually anything she says can be used by the state...The state has the ability to obtain every single bit of information that is produced in this case and that is outside the bounds of what it could do were this proceeding not occurring."
 
Further, Bunch argued that if the divorce proceedings were allowed to continue, he'd instruct Terri Horman to invoke her Fifth Amendment rights not to incriminate herself.
 
There's no doubt police will use what she says if she doesn't," Bunch told the judge.
 
Bunch also contends he'd be at a major disadvantage because the state and police aren't sharing their investigative material, not even allowing them to obtain a copy of a 9-1-1 call Terri Horman made June 26.
 
"You've got Mr. Horman, who is getting regularly briefed by police," Bunch said. "I'm at a complete and utter disadvantage in this divorce case."

Stephen Houze, Terri's criminal defense attorney, said her attorneys have sent subpoenas to depose the lead criminal investigator in Kyron's disappearance, Robert O'Donnell, and Rudy Sanchez, the landscaper investigators say was approached by Terri Horman to carry out a murder-for-hire plot against her husband.
 
Houze said he expects the district attorney's office to thwart that discovery. And if either side can't proceed with discovery, Houze argued that the civil case couldn't practically proceed.
 
Houze suggested the filing of the divorce case by Kaine Horman represents an attempt by the state to use the civil process to gain discovery for the ongoing criminal inquiry. "There can be no doubt that one of the purposes to be served by discovery is to elicit information by Ms. Horman that would be directly channeled to police,'' Houze argued.
 
 
Yet, if a divorce abatement is granted, Bunch said he'd asked the court to alter the current "no parenting time" restriction Terri Horman faces to allow some type of supervised, reasonable contact between Terri Horman and her daughter, Kiara.

She's the primary parent. That child needs to see her," Bunch said. "Certainly Ms. Horman misses her child and would like to see her. Her complete primary focus is her relationship with her daughter."
 
Kaine Horman's divorce lawyer, Laura Rackner, this afternoon argued that the divorce proceedings need to move forward.

Rackner said Terri Horman's request to delay the civil divorce case is not in the children's best interest, but "it's about her concerns and what she wants for herself."

She cautioned the proceeding could be delayed indefinitely, which would not provide stability for the children. Rackner referred to both Kiara, the couple's 22-month-old daughter, and Kyron.
 
"In this case, we don't even have an indictment, so we don't even have a limit as to how long this can go on," Rackner argued.
 
 Rackner's assisting attorney, Alex Nowlin, said they never indicated they'll be compelling testimony from Terri Horman.
 
"The Fifth Amendment does not give the right to delay a court proceeding because she's unwilling to testify," Nowlin said.
 
Kyron has been missing for four months. The second-grader was last seen at Skyline School early June 4 when his stepmom took him to school for a science fair. His stepmom Terri Moulton Horman is the last person to have seen Kyron that morning.

Although law enforcement has not publicly named a suspect, investigators have been intently focused on Terri Horman.
 
Kaine Horman filed for divorce June 28, two days after investigators informed him of an alleged murder-for-hire plot that his wife had discussed with a landscaper to kill him about six months before Kyron's disappearance.
 
Kaine Horman left their rural Northwest Portland home immediately, but has since forced his estranged wife out of the home. Kaine has sole custody currently of their daughter.
 
Terri Horman, dressed in a blue suit, sat in between her two attorneys, while Kaine, wearing a white dress shirt and trousers, sat at the far end of a table, besides his two divorce attorneys. They avoided eye contact throughout.
 
The hearing began at 9:08 a.m. and broke at 11:18 p.m.
 
Kaine Horman said after the judge's ruling that he was fine with the brief delay.

"Hey that's 90 days, 3 months from now, " he said, speaking outside the courthouse's front doors.

But Kaine Horman questioned why his wife worried about getting on the stand during a divorce proceeding.

"If you put the truth out there, why would you have to plead the Fifth? Kaine Horman asked.

He said it didn't upset him to see his wife in person for the first time since he left their house June 26.  He said he stayed focused on his daughter and his family during the hearing. He declined to comment on whether he would want Terri Horman to be allowed any parenting time with Kiara.

Kaine's attorney also had planned to argue this afternoon for Terri Moulton Horman to disclose the source of her fees for high-profile criminal defense attorney Stephen Houze, but the matter was set aside after the judge ruled to stall the divorce proceeding.

Terri Horman's lawyer argues that the alleged $350,000 amount Kaine Horman has cited in legal papers that Terri Horman paid to retain high-profile criminal defense lawyer Stephen Houze was not accurate.

Further, Peter Bunch wrote in court filings today that a "third party or parties paid for Mr. Houze's attorney fees," and it was neither a gift to Terri Horman or a loan. Therefore, Bunch argues, the money is not a marital liability.

Bunch contends Kaine Horman's interest in seeking the source of Terri Horman's attorney fees is to interfere with his estranged wife's attorney-client relationship with Houze and to "aid police in their investigations."

Michael Cook, an old high school friend of Kaine Horman who investigators say had gotten into an intimate relationship with Terri Horman after Kaine Horman left the home in late June, was outside the courtroom most of the day.

 Cook said he had been subpoened to court today by Kaine Horman's lawyer, presumably to discuss the text messages between he and Terri Horman regarding the cost of hiring Houze as a lawyer. His testimony was not needed since the two sides never discussed the attorney fee matter.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/10/judge_delays_terri_and_kaine_h.html

[fatcatlurker]

911 calls back to December?  Okay, what's that all about?

Now.....what a good question Puzzler?!

Back to December 26...the day after Christmas. 

Exactly and she supposedly only knew the LS rudy since March?  Or atleast that's when he came into the picture? 

[mchenry]

Can you imagine how hard it would be to let go of your daughter's hand to put it in the hand of your son's murderer??? I'm not sure if I were Kaine, I could do it. Terri does NOT need visitation until this is all resolved and accountability for Kyron is established!

Amen CBB!

[seemeatthebeach]

911 calls back to December?  Okay, what's that all about?

Now.....what a good question Puzzler?!

Back to December 26...the day after Christmas. 

Exactly and she supposedly only knew the LS rudy since March?  Or atleast that's when he came into the picture? 

IIRC, the "alleged" murder for hire was in November of last year. (2009)

[fatcatlurker]

911 calls back to December?  Okay, what's that all about?

Now.....what a good question Puzzler?!

Back to December 26...the day after Christmas. 

Exactly and she supposedly only knew the LS rudy since March?  Or atleast that's when he came into the picture? 

IIRC, the "alleged" murder for hire was in November of last year. (2009)

OOOHHH, thank you.

[fatcatlurker]

Just to play devil advocate I wonder what the abatement ruling would of been if the roles had been reversed? 

[cw618]

911 calls back to December?  Okay, what's that all about?

Now.....what a good question Puzzler?!

Back to December 26...the day after Christmas. 

Exactly and she supposedly only knew the LS rudy since March?  Or atleast that's when he came into the picture? 

i think the dec 26th date is prob a misprint, IE; june 26th call to LE about kaine taking
 Kiara, the RO, ect

[Puzzler]

911 calls back to December?  Okay, what's that all about?

Now.....what a good question Puzzler?!

Back to December 26...the day after Christmas. 

Exactly and she supposedly only knew the LS rudy since March?  Or atleast that's when he came into the picture? 

IIRC, the "alleged" murder for hire was in November of last year. (2009)

OOOHHH, thank you.

Uh-oh....I didn't remember it as being that far back that far back...I remember Terri met RS at Skyline School in November...but I thought it was January-March on the supposed MFH plot.