Kyron Horman, 7 years old, PORTLAND, OR #35 11/11/10 - 11/21/10

[Blumonkey]

my name is malty I joined in July
I don't know how to post
trying.

Welcome Malty. You posted well !

[Nana29]

"I’m not going to hold myself hostage for this event that happened to him.”     No matter how many times I read that sentence it makes no sense to me. I don't think that I have ever heard a parent say such a thing when there child is missing.

I have only seen broken parents....Not sure where Kaine is coming from with this. I mean, glad to know he is not ready to jump off the next bridge, don't get me wrong, but some of the statements are a bit off. If another parent in another thread had said these words, not sure how much support they would have.

---------
Sometimes the word "hostage" is used metaphorically, for example: "The school did not buy the land because its headmaster missed the train to the meeting because of a road traffic accident; the whole matter thus proved to be hostage to one misbehaving carriage horse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostage
---------
not sure what KH and his therapist have accomplished with KH emotional
state of being, but it sounds like KH has taken on a new outlook, not sure
that, could mean several things,like maybe he feels with more pushing, in
the direction of TH, he could get the results he is looking for, or he is
maybe going to hire a PI,start some work of his own
i think he is saying im tired of feeling helpless in this situation, and
 he perceives the slow mo, of the situation,as a stalemate. or he could
be feeling empowered. JMO

havent read back yet,i see something about unemployment
link to oregon info
http://www.employment.oregon.gov/EMPLOY/UI/docs/UI_forms/uipub_350-e_1009.pdf

BBM. I think this may be close to the truth.
Merriman-Webster deinition;
hos·tage
noun \ˈhäs-tij\
Definition of HOSTAGE
1
a : a person held by one party in a conflict as a pledge pending the fulfillment of an agreement b : a person taken by force to secure the taker's demands
2
: one that is involuntarily controlled by an outside influence

I so feel for this family. I have no idea how I would react publicly if I found myself in the same position. It is easy to say what I should/could/would do, but in the end? Who knows? 
I have a bad habit of not thinking through my "phrasing" at times, I can see where , given the emotional circumstances, it was simply a poor choice of words. This is, of course, IMO, and I certainly am not in a position to judge.

[Nana29]

    Welcome Malty! You did it!  Keep up the great work!     

[malty]

 ::CowboySmiley:
anyway I have been a poster at BOC for awhile
you can check me out
I only post there
I wanted to be a monkey some day but after I joined I was
scared to to try it looks hard to know what is going on
anyway thanks for letting me join

[Kokos Cat]

Welcome, Malty.   


 


O4B:  Thanks & I must say I admire your happy pants, so much!  I also respect your opinion.  Thanks for asking mine....

 

RE:  My suspicions about KH....  I'm not really sure how much I should say.  I guess to avoid an argument or to put anyone on the defensive (I know KH has many supporters, here)  I should just tell you how I feel:  I get a hinky feeling from him. (I have always felt this way about him).

Monkey's intuition, you might say.   

As a parent, I'm empathetic, of course.  I'm horrified, actually, at the situation.  I can't imagine...

Still, I know enough to go with my gut instincts about people.  Unfortunately, I've learned this the hard way.  And when I have chosen to look the other way, to ignore it?  It has always come back to bite me.   I can say to myself about how irrational my feelings are, all day long.  I tell myself that I should feel sorry for him.  But... somehow I just... can't.  Not if my feelings are correct.  In fact, it's just the opposite with him.  To offer him my sympathy feels like it would be casting pearls before    With all due respect to other monkeys here who feel for him.  I understand your feelings and respect you immensely.  You are compassionate and caring.  Still, I can't help but feel that when this is all over, you may feel... used.

 

Gavin de Becker, the personal protection expert, in his book, "The Gift of Fear" (and later, the sequel, "Protecting the Gift, Keeping Our Children Safe.") says something about trusting your instincts.  He advises that people are the only creatures on the planet who rationalize and dismiss their fears.  He uses an example:

When an antelope in the jungle sees a lion, he does not stop and say, "Yeah, but I bet he's a really nice guy."  Nope.  He runs.   That's how I feel about KH.     

 
I could site many concrete examples regarding KH.  One of the most glaring being, for me, that he banned the two largest newspapers in Oregon from the so-called "press conferences".  Why and how is he being allowed to control the media?  And, why would he even want to?  I mean, aren't they the ones who are capable of "getting Kyron's face out there".  I remember his reasoning, at first was that he didn't appreciate the way the media was treating Terri! That excuse went by the wayside, quickly. But, by then it was just accepted.  The effect, IMO, was that the local media became intimidated by him.  They wanted/needed the story.  So... basically everyone tells the same homogenized truth.  The truth according to KH.
 

Also, I agree with IM.  There is something funny going on with KH & LE.  Perhaps, it was a  reverse psychology type of thing, where they put him in control and he just keeps talking... but what about the MFH thing, and now these emails?  I feel it's a set-up, that he's involved but has engineered it so that TH will take the fall.

I'm not defending TH, I feel they are both involved, but it has been a witch hunt, designed by KH to divert attention, IMO.  Emails from KH to his colleagues 36 hrs after Kyron's disappearance made two statements that raised my suspicions:

1.)  He advised them not to talk with the media.

2.)  He noted that he had been in touch with Intel legal.  My instant feeling about this was this: he needed marital advise.  I still believe this.  And, I think I know why.  However, I don't think I should say anything more until this is all over. 

Then, there are the witnesses on the island.  IMO, they were both on the island that day.



Let's just say, IMO, KH is the ugly surprise we've been waiting for. 
 

Sorry about the length of this post!  It's a good thing I wasn't gonna say much!
 
<slink, slink>  Hey!  O4B!  If I am gonna turn tail and run outta here, may I borrow your pants?!? 
 

[Kokos Cat]

Kaine could not be thinking clearly. How could he ? Who could be in this situation ?
He needs to stop with his hammering on TMH in the divorce and elsewhere.
His function IMO is to keep the search alive, do the dirty laundry in the privacy of his own home and with his therapist. Taking snipes at TMH in public, well it just makes him look bad.
I have no clue what LE is doing, maybe they don't know either. That GJ  ?? they didn't make any arrest for the MFH, how long can that GJ sit with either a yes or a no ?
..
He has to think about a. ) why am I in front of this camera ?
KYRON.   
I don't even know if making any appeal to anyone who took this boy would do any good, but maybe someone has one piece of info that might ding something in their brain, like the details that are on the posters LE put up, the vehicle, where she was seen, etc.

Kat Gram  - your post has made me think of something - Have we ever hear Kaine make an appeal for who ever took Kyron to bring him home or to come forward?  (I'm sure there must be something....)

I remember in a presser he appealed for DeDe to come forward and give answers or he was going to take her to civil court.

But has he ever appealed to "the person who took Kyron"?

 

Excellent point, Puzzler, and one that has bothered me from the beginning.  I do not recall them EVER appealing to whoever is theoretically holding Kyron, to return him.  Not even on Oprah. 
 
If you want someone to spare your child, it can be helpful to reach out to them, to try to touch any small bit of humanity that may be lurking in that dark hallow place where their conscience should be. 

But to keep hammering on Terri, to tell what she knows?  It doesn't make sense to me.  Obviously SHE is not in possession of Kyron, currently.  If they really believe that he is alive, why not plead his case to his CAPTORS that are, physically, holding him hostage?!? 
 

[Nana29]

Koko, thank you. I agree with some of what you say, and some not. What I do appreciate is your wording...I take no offense and it did, indeed, NOT put me on the defensive.   

I believe that all of the monkeys have been brought together on this forum not in spite of , but because of their differences. Various perspectives from life experiences ,that is what makes us unique. That it doesn't go to heck in a hand basket says a lot about the wonderful administrators and moderators. Also mutual respect of opinions.

I truly hope and pray for this awful situation to be resolved and hope that I do not end up feeling(as you say) used. I hope you do not mind, but I truly hope that this time your instincts are wrong.

I want to add, I do not rationalize my fear of the dark...I run like the dickens!        Maybe that makes me less then human?

[Brandi]

::CowboySmiley:
anyway I have been a poster at BOC for awhile
you can check me out
I only post there
I wanted to be a monkey some day but after I joined I was
scared to to try it looks hard to know what is going on
anyway thanks for letting me join

malty, so nice to have you join us.

Don't be afraid to post. It gets easier the more you do it!

 

[islandmonkey]

Welcome, Malty.   


 


O4B:  Thanks & I must say I admire your happy pants, so much!  I also respect your opinion.  Thanks for asking mine....

 

RE:  My suspicions about KH....  I'm not really sure how much I should say.  I guess to avoid an argument or to put anyone on the defensive (I know KH has many supporters, here)  I should just tell you how I feel:  I get a hinky feeling from him. (I have always felt this way about him).

Monkey's intuition, you might say.   

As a parent, I'm empathetic, of course.  I'm horrified, actually, at the situation.  I can't imagine...

Still, I know enough to go with my gut instincts about people.  Unfortunately, I've learned this the hard way.  And when I have chosen to look the other way, to ignore it?  It has always come back to bite me.   I can say to myself about how irrational my feelings are, all day long.  I tell myself that I should feel sorry for him.  But... somehow I just... can't.  Not if my feelings are correct.  In fact, it's just the opposite with him.  To offer him my sympathy feels like it would be casting pearls before    With all due respect to other monkeys here who feel for him.  I understand your feelings and respect you immensely.  You are compassionate and caring.  Still, I can't help but feel that when this is all over, you may feel... used.

 

Gavin de Becker, the personal protection expert, in his book, "The Gift of Fear" (and later, the sequel, "Protecting the Gift, Keeping Our Children Safe.") says something about trusting your instincts.  He advises that people are the only creatures on the planet who rationalize and dismiss their fears.  He uses an example:

When an antelope in the jungle sees a lion, he does not stop and say, "Yeah, but I bet he's a really nice guy."  Nope.  He runs.   That's how I feel about KH.     

 
I could site many concrete examples regarding KH.  One of the most glaring being, for me, that he banned the two largest newspapers in Oregon from the so-called "press conferences".  Why and how is he being allowed to control the media?  And, why would he even want to?  I mean, aren't they the ones who are capable of "getting Kyron's face out there".  I remember his reasoning, at first was that he didn't appreciate the way the media was treating Terri! That excuse went by the wayside, quickly. But, by then it was just accepted.  The effect, IMO, was that the local media became intimidated by him.  They wanted/needed the story.  So... basically everyone tells the same homogenized truth.  The truth according to KH.
 

Also, I agree with IM.  There is something funny going on with KH & LE.  Perhaps, it was a  reverse psychology type of thing, where they put him in control and he just keeps talking... but what about the MFH thing, and now these emails?  I feel it's a set-up, that he's involved but has engineered it so that TH will take the fall.

I'm not defending TH, I feel they are both involved, but it has been a witch hunt, designed by KH to divert attention, IMO.  Emails from KH to his colleagues 36 hrs after Kyron's disappearance made two statements that raised my suspicions:

1.)  He advised them not to talk with the media.

2.)  He noted that he had been in touch with Intel legal.  My instant feeling about this was this: he needed marital advise.  I still believe this.  And, I think I know why.  However, I don't think I should say anything more until this is all over. 

Then, there are the witnesses on the island.  IMO, they were both on the island that day.



Let's just say, IMO, KH is the ugly surprise we've been waiting for. 
 

Sorry about the length of this post!  It's a good thing I wasn't gonna say much!
 
<slink, slink>  Hey!  O4B!  If I am gonna turn tail and run outta here, may I borrow your pants?!? 
 

  Hi Kokos Cat~I too have always had a weird gut instinct about Kaine, and I think it was the memo that started it all......I wouldnever, ever, not in a million yrs mention the legal dept where I work, and IIRC he didnt want to give over his computer (refresh my memory if I am mistaken).......I would have given it to them in a second, job be d@mned as there is nothing on this earth that would have kept me from giving them everything they wanted, it would simply not enter my mind PERIOD....and the memo just felt cold and detached IMO. Now, I know I am going to hear engineers are just that way and I can't tell you that is not the case, granted sometimes it is but my dad and most of my family are engineers sans me, and they are the most loving, expressive ppl I know (they wear their heart on their sleeve and when Eli was in the hospital my dad would drive 9 hrs each way every weekend or every other weekend to see him at 72yrs old)......and he would sit and cry with worry over his great grandson, he sure as he77 didn't care what his employer thought about taking massive time off either......I don't know, I just have bad feelings that I can't push aside. Sorry, I will slink out of here now before hit with nanners, but again it's something I felt ASAP, and after reading all over the place I know I am not the only one sadly.

I do hope he can stop and remember Desiree's feelings and the need to one up her and rebut her after she goes on TV, it does make him look petty and when you factor in that not only did he not share pertinent and extremely important information with Desiree which is betrayal, he had already done that when she was pregnant, and sex with someone else when you are married is always an affair, period!

Night all

[Kokos Cat]

I agree monchichi about that website...my main point was the restraining order DY filed on KH...before custody and the divorce was resolved.

Yeah, that makes you wonder.  I don't know if that is a standard move in divorces/custody issues.

I have heard ppl say that before, but in TN it wasn't.....for me anyway. Once I learned a few more things after my POS moved out I got an injunction (or I should say my atty did for me) so he couldn't see Ave's, but not an RO. Maybe things are different in Oregon and since someone stated divorce files are public there it shouldn't be that hard to find out (here, believe it or not they are not public....even in the Sunshine state~go figure)

Hi guys, sorry this was pulled from waaaay back in the thread...

Restraining orders are not that easy to get in Oregon.  The spouse has to be afraid for THEIR life, or be beaten, etc.  You can't get a typical RO to protect your children, either.  I tried.  The judge told me flat out, that I could not, only if I was afraid for my own life.  When I asked him what I could do protect my daughter, he said, "File for divorce and get a custody order in place."

So... for DY to get a RO protecting her from KH?  There had to be some physical violence or threats of physical violence against her at Kaine's hand. 

[Kokos Cat]

 

Hi, IM!  So glad to hear from you...  I REALLY want to be wherever you are in the world... where it's still warm...  Sigh.  The rain is just beginning here in Oregon.  If you're an optimist, you can call it liquid sunshine.

 


But, yeah, IMO KH, is narcissitic, as well as at least emotionally abusive (toward DY), though I suspect much more than that.  The emotional abuse is the hardest to deal with, long term, though.  The bruises are all "on the inside".  Negative tapes from the abuser can last years, if not forever.  Also, any form of physical abuse is ALWAYS accompanied by emotional abuse. 

IMO, this is why she didn't fight him.  She was beaten before she even started, and she knew it. 

Narcissists cannot empathize with people, or admit they are wrong.  Criticism feels lethal to them.  Their ego is THEIR LIFE.  To attack their opinion or to question their judgement in any way is a very dangerous thing indeed.  It's as if you are threatening their life, and they will strike back without thought or consideration of the affects on anyone, themselves included.

Someone mentioned gaslighting a few pages back.  Novella, was that you?  This is emotional abuse, as well.

People who are emotionally abusive keep you guessing.  You just never know when they are going to pull the rug out from under you.  You end up walking on egg shells around them, all the time, just trying to keep an even balance. 

What a situation.  Another thing... people with this capability, can be very charismatic.  After the truth comes out about them, others are often shocked.  It's the old thing we've seen on the news hundreds of times.  The neighbor saying during the interview, "But he was the nicest guy on the block."   

[Kokos Cat]

Koko, thank you. I agree with some of what you say, and some not. What I do appreciate is your wording...I take no offense and it did, indeed, NOT put me on the defensive.   

I believe that all of the monkeys have been brought together on this forum not in spite of , but because of their differences. Various perspectives from life experiences ,that is what makes us unique. That it doesn't go to heck in a hand basket says a lot about the wonderful administrators and moderators. Also mutual respect of opinions.

I truly hope and pray for this awful situation to be resolved and hope that I do not end up feeling(as you say) used. I hope you do not mind, but I truly hope that this time your instincts are wrong.

I want to add, I do not rationalize my fear of the dark...I run like the dickens!        Maybe that makes me less then human?

 

Dear Nana,
  I agree!  Our differences, what be bring to the table, our various talents, strengths and even weaknesses create a synergy impossible to achieve, alone!

LOL re: being "less than human", that's probably a good thing in this case!  And... we are all scared monkeys here, which is wise in my book.  Be afraid, be very afraid!   

[Scandi]

Hi     Had a glass or 2 so take that into consideration, but tonight have gone on a search of tunnels in the area, thinking that yes, it could be with malice of forethought, it could be whoever took Kyron might have known the area well enough to use either tunnels or pipes to dispose of his body.

Quick if one knew where the entrances are to these tunnels, and almost finite in someone discovering the body.  It is almost like a fairy tale where the monster knew just how to secret his victim away.

Maybe I've been to wrapped up in Kyron's case, wanting him so desperately to be found.  But I think this  is a righteous possibilit, that if he wasn't put in the waters of SI, he could have been hidden away in an underground space that very few people are really familiar with.  Could he be secreted in a tunnel or a pipe?

    The RR tunnel which is off Cornelius Pass Rd, a relatively short distance NW of Skyline Elementary.  I don't know where the entrance to it is but would love to know that.     

There is the tale posted here in August of the hikers up in Forest Park who ran across ventilation grates up in the woods of Forest Park, once upon a time. {I just don't know the date when they were there ;}   A tintillating recounting of their tale, reading:  "During the time that I was close with Billy, his picture appeared in the paper in an article about convicted felons who were released to halfway houses. The caption accompanying his photo described him as a ―convicted serial killer.  Billy said that after he went to the police about the trafficking ring he discovered, he was accused of the murder of several local prostitutes.

One afternoon he took my friend Casey and I on a hike through Forest Park. We walked for miles away from any houses or civilization to a large system of ventilation grates that military personnel supposedly used as an entrance into the tunnel complex.

That is 2 tunnel points up in the immediate vicinity where Kyron vanished. 

There is a third which is a drainage tunnel for the Skyline area that evidently takes water away from the Skyline area and it drops down over the N side of the Skyline hill towards the Columbia River.  It is called the Forest Park Drainage Tunnel:  http://www.deq.state.or.us/lq/cu/nwr/PortlandHarbor/docs/StormwaterSourceControlStatusRpt-Sept2010.pdf


They are just possibilities where one could hide a body if they were well studied enough to know how to create an opportunity for disposal like this.

I personally feel Kyron has been gone far too long now to think it was a hapless disposal that has just turned out luckily for the perpitrater.  No.  I think just knowing about these tunnel and pipe systems in the immediate area of the scene of the crime could give rise to further thought.  xox

[Scandi]

OMG, Edit to my above post:

Quick - I meant it could have been a quick disposal  if one knew . . .

a righteous 'possibility'.


xox

[Kokos Cat]

 
Dear Scandi,
  Interesting.... very very interesting. 
  The death scent that the SAR dogs are alerting to is reportedly coming from the DIRECTION of the Horman residence (not necessarily that property, but from that DIRECTION); downwind through the train tunnel.  SAR dogs can alert to a human cadaver that is up to 40 miles away, if the wind is right, according to "he who will not be named". 
  Thanks for this research.  Be careful, those train tracks are still used, but I've heard the train there is very quiet and can sneak up on you...
 

[sebastian]

Posting from my iPad is a challenge, I see.     I am having trouble quoting so I will just comment what I can remember. Lol.

In a nut shell I think that Kaine has always had little man syndrome and this may come from his family dynamics. He may have also been sexually abused as his brother claims to have been by the grandfather. 

While I never pretended to care for Kaine, I tried to give him some leeway because of this EVENT he has said has happened to Kyron. I see Kaine as a very controlling manipulating man who will not take orders or be one-upped by anyone and especially by a woman. His words were most likely an attempt to appear to not be personally affected by Desiree with her public admonishment of him. Also, if he were to admit feeling guilty in his mind that is exactly what Desiree wants him to feel. He also would be empowering Terri, because she
hoped to hurt him by harming Kyron( if she did as he claims). 

So if he does not admit to making stupid choices, then he doesn't accept the guilt and he WINS.  In his mind anyway. He will win at any cost.   Just my opinion but that's what I see.

Hi 04bull and all,
It has been a while since I have posted but I have continued to follow Kyron's case. I cannot believe so much time has gone by and Kyron is still not home! 04bull, I have always admired your posts and agree with this one as well!

[malty]

Wow you people are so right on
he has never asked for someone to return Kyron
even says he believes Kyron is alive
now that is odd
I just thought I was having thoughts about him because
he is not my type
first he said he was shy and timid and private
and  it was all about Kyron
but then he changed
that bothers me
and the way he treats Desiree

[Nut44x4]

Many with missing family members will say they believe the missing person is still alive. For some reason they have to, just to keep going...until proven otherwise.

Kaine knows Ky is dead. Not because HE is responsible for Ky's death, but because it is the only logical answer. That is why he hasn't asked anyone to return him. The answer lies with Terry. Until I am proven wrong, that is what I believe.

[nana0567]

Hi monkeys...hope everyone is doing okay. I watched GMA yesterday morning and Kaine was questioned about emails Terry supposedly wrote about not liking Kyron. He wouldn't comment about them. I'm a little behind in my reading and just wondered if anyone knows if those emails were ever made public? TIA to anyone that can answer.

[can]

Hi monkeys...hope everyone is doing okay. I watched GMA yesterday morning and Kaine was questioned about emails Terry supposedly wrote about not liking Kyron. He wouldn't comment about them. I'm a little behind in my reading and just wondered if anyone knows if those emails were ever made public? TIA to anyone that can answer.

Good morning nana0567.  No, the emails have not been made public.