Kyron Horman, 7 years old, PORTLAND, OR #35 11/11/10 - 11/21/10

[fatcatlurker]

We knew about that sexting for quite  awhile and people were throwing out that it was her body building pics even though it was stated that they were graphic.

We have not seen all of the sexting.

Now with these emails, we have only heard a little bit.  I bet that there is plenty in there and it's not pretty.

Otherwise, Desiree would not be so upset.

Then there were the other emails where Desiree stated that Kyron saw it all or was part of it all.  Something like that.

I am guessing that these are part of the criminal investigation, and they are not in TH's favor.

ITA I think we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

[Tracygirl]

But who would Terri write the emails to that she states in them her hatred for Kyron? Seems rather confidential to me. Not something you would just say to anybody.
What did Desiree say about the emails. I think she said she was called to the station and LE showed her the emails? Was Kaine there as well?

[Puzzler]

Good morning Monkeys.

I am finding myself frustrated and can't put into words exactly what I am feeling, which is making me more frustrated. I feel as though I am being manipulated into thinking a certain thing and I do few for day and then it dawns on me, wait I still don't know the answers to these other questions.

It is telling to me that Desiree said Terri asked for her to take Kyron. Why did she want her to do that? Was she trying to protect Kyron from either herself or from something she feared would happen to him? She sent James away she tried to send Kyron away...Why? Is it because of the reasons we are being told or being lead to believe?

Who did Terri confide in with some damaging information such as that she hates Kyron? Think about how many people in your life you would tell such a thing to? For me, if I had such thoughts I suppose I would tell a very trusted best friend, my husband, a trusted family member..I would fear being judged or hated. It makes me wonder why she was saying this to somebody and who she wrote.

TG - all very good questions.

Most of us want to take people at their word.  Most of us are honest people; therefore, we want to believe that others are too.  However, IMO, there has be a lot of manipulation going on with this case and I would not be surprised if what we "think" we know now is not what the facts turn out to be in the end.

The uneasiness, IMO, is because we don't have any "concrete" information to believe in.  As Stanton said - we need concrete evidence.  Evidentally, at that point, even Stanton didn't have concrete evidence.  Coming from Staton, that tells you a lot - doesn't it?

I, too, believe the public is being very cleverly manipulated.  By whom?  LE? No, they're not coming out and saying a word.  By LE through family, yes, I do think so...especially through Desiree.  I get upset when I think that LE might be manipulating Desiree so that she will come out and give the public the information that LE won't do themselves.

I wonder...did LE let Desiree read the emails (evidence) OR did LE tell Desiree about the emails with their spin on what the emails mean?

Yes...."why" did Terri want Desiree to take Kyron back?  There must be some form of "protection" involved to make such a request. 

[Puzzler]

So far, we've only heard one side of the story (Kaine's).  No telling what we'll hear when the other side comes out. 

I'm sure Bunch/Houze will not come out weak...but will come out in very proper legal terms (Houze's forte).

It should be a wild ride once we get both sides.  Judge should have his hands full!!

That is what I want both sides of the story to come out.  I don't put much into LDT, some people can fool them, some can fail them and they did nothing. I would never take one, and then of course people would think I did something wrong, but it is a person's right whether they take one or don't take one.

I would NEVER take one either.  They are not admissable in court.  Therefore the court does not look at them as evidence.  They are a "tool" that is used by LE.  A tool that is "not accurate" and is the reason why they are not admitted in court.  SImple.

[hellokitty]

 

Remember the OJ case?  He as found not guilty or whatever, but he was found guilty in civil courft.

2 whole different ball games.  Just like the divorce and the criminal case with TH.

[Puzzler]

But who would Terri write the emails to that she states in them her hatred for Kyron? Seems rather confidential to me. Not something you would just say to anybody.
What did Desiree say about the emails. I think she said she was called to the station and LE showed her the emails? Was Kaine there as well?

Can't imagine why anyone would write in a email about "hatred" for a little boy.  Makes one wonder if that's spin/manipulation....someone's interputation of what the email meant and not literally that the email says "I have hatred".  See?

We don't know all the fine details.  Desiree's statements are partial information.  Don't know if Kaine was there, as well, but in a video I did see Kaine say that he's been informed of the emails.

Kaine said "informed".  That's why I keep asking if the emails were "read" by Kaine/Desiree or the were just informed what was in the emails by LE.  LE could put a spin on what they think the emails mean (LE does not have to tell the truth)...a spin so Desiree and/or Kaine would make public comments about the emails.  Dang it!  If LE wants that information public...why don't they do that themselves?

[Lazydog1]

So Kaine's attorney is trying to make both women, Desiree and Terri, look like incompetants and he's the dear, sweeet man who's the victim of both women.

Geesh!

I have a feeling this is going to backfire and open up a BIG can of worms!!

Rackner has to realize these below the belt tactics have repercussions AND her client will wind up with egg on his face.  I understand she has expertise is with custody cases, and she may very well be a great attorney, however, I think the Bunch/Houze combination will eat her up.

I guess I missed the part where Rackner says anything about Desiree.  Could you direct me?

What is it that you consider "below the belt tactics" by Rackner?


http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib/107/a/9/2/a92b2731-0d99-453a-80b8-3ed80892bf53/Horman_Paperwork.pdf

I don't see where she said Rackner made this statement. I got the feeling she was speaking about Terri's email to someone. Am I totally confused reading Kat_gram's post?

Maybe Kat_gram can explain who she was referring to in her post so we all understand.

[Puzzler]

Remember the OJ case?  He as found not guilty or whatever, but he was found guilty in civil courft.

2 whole different ball games.  Just like the divorce and the criminal case with TH.

Yep...remember it well.  Civil case has a much lower threshold to present evidence; however, I do not
believe that Rackner will be successful in getting information in connection to the LD included as LD
are not admissable in court - any court.

[Monkey King]

Let's take a step back~ ok, I will take a step back~

Do we even know if there is a court order stating Kaine has actual physical custody of Kyron?

Isn't it possible this visitation/custody agreement was oral and not court ordered?

If that's the case, Desiree could take Kyron anytime.

In the event of an actual court order, Kyron seemed like he could have stated he wanted to live with Desiree and the judge may listened.

I believe also there should have been shared parental responsibility/shared custody.

You can take any action into court.  Due to the fact Kyron was having issues, I'm sure Desiree talked to Terri about them.  I don't see why these two couldn't work together to address issues with Kyron back then.

Kaine, again, seems to be the conductor of this train. 

[Puzzler]

We knew about that sexting for quite  awhile and people were throwing out that it was her body building pics even though it was stated that they were graphic.

We have not seen all of the sexting.

Now with these emails, we have only heard a little bit.  I bet that there is plenty in there and it's not pretty.

Otherwise, Desiree would not be so upset.

Then there were the other emails where Desiree stated that Kyron saw it all or was part of it all.  Something like that.

I am guessing that these are part of the criminal investigation, and they are not in TH's favor.

ITA I think we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

I, too, think we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg.  Also, it brings back to my mind the statements from Stanton - we've learned things we wish we didn't know and when this is over we'll be surprised (words to that effect).

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised by anything that comes out about Terri.  By the way posters talk about Terri, most of them wouldn't be surprised either, IMO.  So...what will we be surprised about?  First thing I think of is - we weren't always looking at what was in front of our eyes - smoke and mirrors have clouded our perception. 

[Desdemona]

We knew about that sexting for quite  awhile and people were throwing out that it was her body building pics even though it was stated that they were graphic.

We have not seen all of the sexting.

Now with these emails, we have only heard a little bit.  I bet that there is plenty in there and it's not pretty.

Otherwise, Desiree would not be so upset.

Then there were the other emails where Desiree stated that Kyron saw it all or was part of it all.  Something like that.

I am guessing that these are part of the criminal investigation, and they are not in TH's favor.

ITA I think we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

  (bbm)

[islandmonkey]

 Since I am and always have been interested in stmt analysis, I checked to see if Seamus O'Riley had done one recently and he has......interesting read IMO:


http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2010/11/kyron-desiree-versus-kaine.html

 










Kaine Horman said he has never withheld information and never felt that his estranged wife posed a threat to Kyron.

"I didn't feel he was in danger," he said.

Note that he didn't "feel", which leaves open the reality that when some read the court documents that he has sworn to be true, that they will "feel" otherwise.
Also note that weakness is to be expected due to the outcome of the case: Kyron's demise. This is the first time since the Skyline School second-grader disappeared June 4 that his parents have held dueling media appearances.

But as fractures appear in their united front, Young and Horman both want Kyron home and both believe that Terri Horman is responsible for his disappearance.

Standing in front of the Wall of Hope near the Northwest Portland school, Kaine Horman spoke about court filings in the divorce case in which he accused Terri Horman of having a drinking problem.

He said that he had observed "behaviors" but that only recently, in conversations with family and friends, did he start to think she was an alcoholic.


"All of a sudden it comes right into focus," he said. "We're dealing with someone who is a master of deception." Note that "it comes right into focus" is passive. Passivity seeks to hide identity or responsibility. This them continues with the weakness of "we" rather than "I", even though he was not speaking to the press with Desiree, but was alone. This is the outworkings of guilt. Passive language seeks distance. It is understandable that Kaine will be questioned as to how he did not know how dangerous Terri Horman was. Desiree reported that the school said he was acting out due to the strain at home. She alleges that Kaine kept this from her and it is causing a great deal of anger.

ME: I guess I forgot this or missed it, as this is the first I read of it.......

In previous interviews, Horman said he learned that Terri Horman secretly drank in 2005 while competing in a bodybuilding contest. She was arrested that year for drunken driving and completed a diversion course. Horman said things were fine after that until Terri Horman gave birth to Kiara in 2008.

But on Monday he indicated that things were not fine.

"I think the alcohol was the tip of the iceberg," he said.

We would want to question him about the tip, and what was behind the tip, and ask him to describe the iceberg. It is his language and we would seek to understand what he thinks alcohol is small in comparison to.

He accused his estranged wife, again, of being a demanding mother and stepmother, carrying out "inappropriate punishment."

We would need to ask him what this means. Is it physical abuse? Emotional abuse? What did he do to intervene? This is soft language and may be that he is withholding information or now faced with the inevitable "failure to protect" label that comes to those who accuse the estranged spouse of abuse. If the other party was abusive, why did you leave your children with her? This is "failure to protect", and is a form of neglect.

Note that she is described as being "a demanding mother and step mother". This may reference her 16 year old son, who was reported to have been running in trouble (lack of boundaries) but it should be questioned how she handled Kiara, at such a young age. If she is capable of murder, she is capable of everything up to murder.

"It was excessive in nature," he said, adding that Kyron suffered.

What did Kyron due to alleviate the suffering? This is what may be causing Desiree to fume. We do not have the direct quote on suffering, but it appears that he acknowledged this. This speaks to "failure to protect" again, and we would need more information in order to make that determination fairly.

Ultimately, he did fail to protect, but as time goes on, we may learn what steps he took, or what he saw that he did not take action regarding.


It is evident the relationship between them was strained," he said.

This is alarming.

When someone describes behavior between a step mother and a 7 year old child as a "relationship that was strained" it is an indication that Kaine is minimizing the trouble between them. Note that "it" is evident; which is also passive.

This shows that Kaine knew.

Kaine knew that things were bad.

Desiree may have more to say about this.


As the case drags on, he said, each day is difficult. He said he tries to focus on his responsibilities, including taking care of Kiara.

Repeating what was in motions filed in the divorce proceedings, Horman said he does not want his estranged wife to have a supervised visit with their daughter. He also said that Kiara, who just turned 2, does not ask about her mother at all.

"No," he said.

Kaine now has to be careful about allegations as they come back to bite him when people hear how bad she was, they will question why he didn't save Kyron by having him stay with his mother; in particular when Kaine was at work and he, as father, left the "evidently strained" Kyron with Terri Horman, as well as the highly vulnerable Kiara. The courts may have viewed the children differently, due to age and level of sophistication in handling "evidence" of strained relationships.
A supervised visit is conducted when:

1. There is sufficient cause to supervise; or protect the child
2. When reunification is the goal.

If there is no intended goal of reunification, there is no need to have visitation as it will increase the confusion and ultimately the emotional pain to the child.

Legally, Kaine would have to associate the disappearance of Kyron to Terri Horman, in order to prove an "Aggravating Factor" which would then remove the legal responsibility for reunification.

We need to hear what the Grand Jury heard, and if the police plan on charging Terri Horman.



Snipped

More at the link, but I can certainly see why the questions so many of us are having are also questions many, many others have and I can completely understand Desiree's anger, and IMO she has every right for her anger at not just Terri, but Kaine.....

[Tracygirl]

I want to say, I believe Desiree truly believes what she is saying. She is not coming out to harm Terri just because she hates her. She honestly believes Terri did something to Kyron.

[Puzzler]

Let's take a step back~ ok, I will take a step back~

Do we even know if there is a court order stating Kaine has actual physical custody of Kyron?

Isn't it possible this visitation/custody agreement was oral and not court ordered?

If that's the case, Desiree could take Kyron anytime.

In the event of an actual court order, Kyron seemed like he could have stated he wanted to live with Desiree and the judge may listened.

I believe also there should have been shared parental responsibility/shared custody.

You can take any action into court.  Due to the fact Kyron was having issues, I'm sure Desiree talked to Terri about them.  I don't see why these two couldn't work together to address issues with Kyron back then.

Kaine, again, seems to be the conductor of this train. 

MK - good question - I don't know if there was "court ordered custody" .  Some time back, Wyks had some good information she posted on SM about the R.O. against Kaine and her concern that he would take the "2 boys" from her home - at the time of the divorce.  But I don't recall about whether we found out about a court ordered custody by Kaine.

You bring up some very good questions. 

It does seem like there was something that Terri was very concerned about with respect to Kyron staying with the Hormans.  I think its a big deal that Terri asked Desiree to take him back.  There is "something" that caused that request. 

[Puzzler]

The tip of the iceberg:  IMO - also means finding out about the other side (not just Terri's side) and then "putting it all together".

Three parts:
Kaine's side (court filings and pressers)
Terri's side (to come)
Combined (to come)

[no rose colored glasses]

Thanks IM for the Seamus O'Riley blog, I enjoy reading his take of things in several cases.   The thing that I don't get, why would you say things like that in an email, about hating someone, and whatever else was said, and then turn around and harm that person? That makes no sense to me, it would lead right back to you, so why do it?

[Puzzler]

I want to say, I believe Desiree truly believes what she is saying. She is not coming out to harm Terri just because she hates her. She honestly believes Terri did something to Kyron.

I agree.  Desiree is trying to make some sense of it (an impossible task) and trying to find a place to put blame.  She may have found the right spot in putting the blame on Terri.  BUT, Desiree - like us - is not seeing LE arrest anyone.  We're frustrated here on SM - but our frustration can't be anything compared to Desiree's frustration.

[Tracygirl]

Thank you IslandMonkey for posting the statement analysis. I agree Kaine is painting himself into a corner. I wonder if he will be charged with failure to protect.

[Puzzler]

Thanks IM for the Seamus O'Riley blog, I enjoy reading his take of things in several cases.   The thing that I don't get, why would you say things like that in an email, about hating someone, and whatever else was said, and then turn around and harm that person? That makes no sense to me, it would lead right back to you, so why do it?

Maybe the words "I hate" weren't there (because "why" would anyone do that in this day?) - but maybe the "statements" made led Desiree to come to the conclusion that Terri hated Kyron.  Desiree is firm in her believe that Terri hated Kyron.  So...maybe Terri said some things about Kyron that Desiree didn't agree with and concludes that Terri just hates Kyron.

A statement from Terri like:  I wish Desiree would just take Kyron back.  Without any background as to why that statement is being made would lead someone to believe that Kyron was disliked so much as to want him to go back to his mother.  The question is:  Why would a statement like that be made?  Why would Terri want Desiree to take Kyron back?  We don't know that answer...yet.

 

[fatcatlurker]

I want to say, I believe Desiree truly believes what she is saying. She is not coming out to harm Terri just because she hates her. She honestly believes Terri did something to Kyron.

I agree.  Desiree is trying to make some sense of it (an impossible task) and trying to find a place to put blame.  She may have found the right spot in putting the blame on Terri.  BUT, Desiree - like us - is not seeing LE arrest anyone.  We're frustrated here on SM - but our frustration can't be anything compared to Desiree's frustration.

So True.