Natalee Holloway Case Discussion #851 11/16/10 - 11/20/10

[Lisa in MD]

Here something to provoke a thought or two….

If the DNA tests prove the mandible to be Natalee’s eventually they will have to return it to Beth who naturally will have it retested in the US for confirmation. 

Is there a test that could show from the degradation what atmosphere the mandible had been kept in? 

Clearly what I am try to say is if it was kept ashore for 5 ½ yrs. and then recently placed in the ocean would that be detectable?

I’m a very curious monkey!

[mariloo]

Hi Monkeys! I don't know if it is just me but this feels different this time. I really feel like it is Natalee. I hope so anyway...her family needs some closure. I, too, am not sure how it was "spotted" on the beach....all broken shell pieces look like bones.  Hope we hear some new news soon.

Many of us feel the same way.  This feels different whether the jawbone was "planted" or found accidentally, it feels different.

Hi monkeys!  We have been praying for a miracle for many years on this one and maybe this is it.  I hope so.  Somewhere back in the beginning of this case, I seem to remember another young woman disappearing there.  Anyone else remember this information?

[mariloo]

Here something to provoke a thought or two….

If the DNA tests prove the mandible to be Natalee’s eventually they will have to return it to Beth who naturally will have it retested in the US for confirmation. 

Is there a test that could show from the degradation what atmosphere the mandible had been kept in? 

Clearly what I am try to say is if it was kept ashore for 5 ½ yrs. and then recently placed in the ocean would that be detectable?

I’m a very curious monkey!

Also, LE need to go back to where this was found and do some digging.  !!!!

[Blonde]

Here something to provoke a thought or two….

If the DNA tests prove the mandible to be Natalee’s eventually they will have to return it to Beth who naturally will have it retested in the US for confirmation. 

Is there a test that could show from the degradation what atmosphere the mandible had been kept in? 

Clearly what I am try to say is if it was kept ashore for 5 ½ yrs. and then recently placed in the ocean would that be detectable?

I’m a very curious monkey!

http://jdr.sagepub.com/content/32/5/729.full.pdf

[wreck]

Here something to provoke a thought or two….

If the DNA tests prove the mandible to be Natalee’s eventually they will have to return it to Beth who naturally will have it retested in the US for confirmation. 

Is there a test that could show from the degradation what atmosphere the mandible had been kept in? 

Clearly what I am try to say is if it was kept ashore for 5 ½ yrs. and then recently placed in the ocean would that be detectable?

I’m a very curious monkey!

I would assume so, but not sure to what degree. This could have been out of water for 5 1/2 years, could have been in water for 5/1/2 years or been in the water for 3 years - removed from the water and stored on land for the past 2 years!

[dejasade]

Do we know when the DNA results will be back? I thought that I had heard today.....................
maybe they are keeping it a secret????

[klaasend]

Do we know when the DNA results will be back? I thought that I had heard today.....................
maybe they are keeping it a secret????

I think Jossy is the one who said maybe today but I think that would be too quick.

[MuffyBee]

Hi Monkeys! I don't know if it is just me but this feels different this time. I really feel like it is Natalee. I hope so anyway...her family needs some closure. I, too, am not sure how it was "spotted" on the beach....all broken shell pieces look like bones.  Hope we hear some new news soon.

Many of us feel the same way.  This feels different whether the jawbone was "planted" or found accidentally, it feels different.

ITA.  And I think the timing is right, with Paulus deceased and Joran locked up in prison, among other things. 

[jen3560]

Here something to provoke a thought or two….

If the DNA tests prove the mandible to be Natalee’s eventually they will have to return it to Beth who naturally will have it retested in the US for confirmation. 

Is there a test that could show from the degradation what atmosphere the mandible had been kept in? 

Clearly what I am try to say is if it was kept ashore for 5 ½ yrs. and then recently placed in the ocean would that be detectable?

I’m a very curious monkey!

I would assume so, but not sure to what degree. This could have been out of water for 5 1/2 years, could have been in water for 5/1/2 years or been in the water for 3 years - removed from the water and stored on land for the past 2 years!

I would presume that type of testing is possible.  I know a few of us looked into it in March 2008.  My bet is it's been in sea water for 5.5 years -  in one place for 3, and then in another for the past 2.

[Blonde]

Here something to provoke a thought or two….

If the DNA tests prove the mandible to be Natalee’s eventually they will have to return it to Beth who naturally will have it retested in the US for confirmation. 

Is there a test that could show from the degradation what atmosphere the mandible had been kept in? 

Clearly what I am try to say is if it was kept ashore for 5 ½ yrs. and then recently placed in the ocean would that be detectable?

I’m a very curious monkey!

My dentist said yes

[Tylergal]

Here something to provoke a thought or two….

If the DNA tests prove the mandible to be Natalee’s eventually they will have to return it to Beth who naturally will have it retested in the US for confirmation. 

Is there a test that could show from the degradation what atmosphere the mandible had been kept in? 

Clearly what I am try to say is if it was kept ashore for 5 ½ yrs. and then recently placed in the ocean would that be detectable?

I’m a very curious monkey!

this is JMHO, but I think Anita had this piece of human skull placed there, so that Joran would be able to get a trial in Aruba or Alabama, and perhaps remanded to the USA for his punishment, which American prisons are like healthclubs compared to where he is or what is in Aruba.  It may be Natalee's skull.  I have no doubt that parts of her body were kept as souvenirs, just like her underwear that Anita could describe in detail.  Anita has been probably sleeping with the evidence to keep it intact.

[Tylergal]

Do we know when the DNA results will be back? I thought that I had heard today.....................
maybe they are keeping it a secret????

I think Jossy is the one who said maybe today but I think that would be too quick.

Jossy does and always has been interested in sales of newspapers.  Beth is interested in facts.  This is not a test that takes long if they already have Beth's DNA but I would like to have an opinion from AFIP.

[Lisa in MD]

Here something to provoke a thought or two….

If the DNA tests prove the mandible to be Natalee’s eventually they will have to return it to Beth who naturally will have it retested in the US for confirmation. 

Is there a test that could show from the degradation what atmosphere the mandible had been kept in? 

Clearly what I am try to say is if it was kept ashore for 5 ½ yrs. and then recently placed in the ocean would that be detectable?

I’m a very curious monkey!

Well coinciding with the theory that Natalee was buried on the Van der Sloot property maybe Anita decided it was time to dig her up and give her back.       Just a Thought

this is JMHO, but I think Anita had this piece of human skull placed there, so that Joran would be able to get a trial in Aruba or Alabama, and perhaps remanded to the USA for his punishment, which American prisons are like healthclubs compared to where he is or what is in Aruba.  It may be Natalee's skull.  I have no doubt that parts of her body were kept as souvenirs, just like her underwear that Anita could describe in detail.  Anita has been probably sleeping with the evidence to keep it intact.

[Tamikosmom]

I would presume that type of testing is possible.  I know a few of us looked into it in March 2008.  My bet is it's been in sea water for 5.5 years -  in one place for 3, and then in another for the past 2.

 

[klaasend]

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_81090.php

This doesn't surprise me

‘Five percent Arubans infected with HIV’
16 Nov, 2010, 06:56 (GMT -04:00)

ORANJESTAD — Based on the number of registered HIV cases and the multiplier advised by the World Health Organization (WHO), approximately five percent of the Aruban population is infected with the HIV virus. Ryan Maduro of E Faro – the institute that stands up amongst others for the interests of HIV and aids patients – stated the aforementioned.

He mentioned this figure during the announcement of the activities from the WAD-committee, in which the institute is also represented, surrounding World Aids Day. The latter was to take place on December 1st, but the committee has scheduled the activities for Aruba from November 27th up to and including December 2nd. The main objective is to inform the public, to increase the awareness, but especially to break down taboos on HIV and aids or sex as main source of infection.
The 5 percent is based on the number of registered cases. Since the first case was registered in 1998, Aruba officially has 489 HIV carriers. Meanwhile, Maduro announced yesterday that up to October 31st of this year, the number has increased to 536. “However, that figure is not official because it still needs to be verified.” These cases are registered with the Department of Contagious Diseases. In first instance, one need not worry about this figure, says Maduro, as it regards 0.5 percent of the population. However, quite a few HIV carriers are not registered because they are not aware of their situation. Maduro: “The advice from WHO is to multiply the number of registered cases with ten. That worries us because we then have a potential of well over 5000 infections, therefore five percent of our population.”

Increasingly younger
The number of HIV cases increases with approximately 20 per year. Maduro explains that most of the infections occur in the age groups 25 up to 44 years.
“They are in the productive or reproductive age or in the process of getting married, getting children, forming families.” Most of the employed people are in this age group, says Maduro. “When one speaks of the 5 percent that could become infected, this could cause many problems in all organizations if this percentage is not treated.”
The HIV/aids movement on Aruba is also concerned about the trend that increasingly younger people contract the virus. This is a worldwide development, about which one recently sounded the alarm during the World Aids Conference in Vienna. The registration of new infections on Aruba over the past two years also shows the lower age. It regards infections in the ages of 15 up to 24 years, young adults. “That really shocked us, and we are very concerned,” says Maduro.

 

[wreck]

I would presume that type of testing is possible.  I know a few of us looked into it in March 2008.  My bet is it's been in sea water for 5.5 years -  in one place for 3, and then in another for the past 2.

 

Pure speculation on my part -- I think the "jaw" appeared missing in the "cage" photos. So, where it was/is is really a big guess. Maybe it indeed got washed out of the cage. I still think the odds that it washed up on shore 5 1/2 years later is remote. (but God works in mysterious ways!)

[klaasend]

[Tamikosmom]

I would presume that type of testing is possible.  I know a few of us looked into it in March 2008.  My bet is it's been in sea water for 5.5 years -  in one place for 3, and then in another for the past 2.

 

Pure speculation on my part -- I think the "jaw" appeared missing in the "cage" photos. So, where it was/is is really a big guess. Maybe it indeed got washed out of the cage. I still think the odds that it washed up on shore 5 1/2 years later is remote. (but God works in mysterious ways!)

Wreck

Klaas' theory conforms with yours.  It is a possibility.  According to Kyle Kingman's own words when the trap was discovered ... the trap's door was open.

Janet

+++++

The lower jaw could have fallen away and through the trap (if this indeed what Natalee in this trap):

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kermit - Scared Monkeys

[Tamikosmom]

Thanks Klaas.

According to Kyle Kingman ... the trap's location aligned with Arashi Beach.

Personally ... I speculate that Natalee's jawbone was planted ....

1.  To distract from recovery of the trap's contents by Aruban divers.
2.  To create a legal means for Joran to be extraticted from Peru to face charges in the illegal disposal of a corpse.
3.  To appease Natalee's mother who will continue to be Aruba's worst nightmare if answers are not forthcoming in the disappearance of her daughter.

Janet

++++


Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  While we were searching shortly before Christmas, we were contacted by an Aruban detective who was involved in the Holloway case. He claimed that his brother had a vision about Natalee’s body offshore and had coordinates. He and his brother agreed to meet on the Persistence. The detective's brother gave what he thought were coordinates, but turned out to be a line of latitude. This latitude aligned with Arashi beach and came within a half mile of the fish trap.

Kyle Kingman:  My opinion on Simian is that he is a detective/cop involved in the case since the beginning. My understanding is that there is only one of the originals remaining. He came to us during the search along with his brother who had a "vision" on where Natalee was disposed. The vision was cryptic and actually contained a latitude which from what he claimed could have been anywhere in the world. The brother thought they were coordinates, but it was just a latitude. Oddly, the latitude was within a half mile from where we found the trap and centered on Arashi beach. Basically, if you stood on land and pointed straight to the trap and were right on the money... this is what the difference amounts to. Based on this latitude we payed a little more attention to the northern portions of the search grid near that Latitude. The trap was found shortly after, within the original search area, but very close to the provided latitude. I would have found the trap without the latitude, but it was very strange.

Kermit - Scared Monkeys

[jen3560]

I would presume that type of testing is possible.  I know a few of us looked into it in March 2008.  My bet is it's been in sea water for 5.5 years -  in one place for 3, and then in another for the past 2.

 

Pure speculation on my part -- I think the "jaw" appeared missing in the "cage" photos. So, where it was/is is really a big guess. Maybe it indeed got washed out of the cage. I still think the odds that it washed up on shore 5 1/2 years later is remote. (but God works in mysterious ways!)

Well, remember that ALE never (at least no one saw them) did anything like they should have such as examine the sea bed underneath/nearby the cage.  So any disarticulated pieces that may have fallen through/carried off and radiated outward by scavengers could have/would have still been there as of Jan 2008.