Natalee Holloway Case Discussion #851 11/16/10 - 11/20/10

[Lifesong]

Posted on the front page of SM under the jawbone found article:

kkthy on November 17th, 2010 6:19 am

The picture is NOT the one found last Friday November 12th. I know because I was with the vacationer that found the bone on the beach in Aruba at the Phoenix. (my timeshare) The jaw bone had one molar in it still. I am praying that the Holloway family finds closure. If it’s not the Holloway family, that some other family finds closure.

Oh dear Lord, Klaas!  You know what I thought when I saw kkthy.

 

If Crazy went down there and found a bone, he'll be acquitted for sure.

[klaasend]

Volunteers Take To The Beaches For AHATA Coastal Clean-Up 2010


http://www.aruba.com/news/general-news/volunteers-take-to-the-beaches-for-ahata-coastal-clean-up-2010/

Jawbone was discovered on Friday and this cleanup was on Saturday the 13th.

[klaasend]

Posted on the front page of SM under the jawbone found article:

kkthy on November 17th, 2010 6:19 am

The picture is NOT the one found last Friday November 12th. I know because I was with the vacationer that found the bone on the beach in Aruba at the Phoenix. (my timeshare) The jaw bone had one molar in it still. I am praying that the Holloway family finds closure. If it’s not the Holloway family, that some other family finds closure.

Oh dear Lord, Klaas!  You know what I thought when I saw kkthy.

 

If Crazy went down there and found a bone, he'll be acquitted for sure.

Does not appear to be the same person.

[Lifesong]

Posted on the front page of SM under the jawbone found article:

kkthy on November 17th, 2010 6:19 am

The picture is NOT the one found last Friday November 12th. I know because I was with the vacationer that found the bone on the beach in Aruba at the Phoenix. (my timeshare) The jaw bone had one molar in it still. I am praying that the Holloway family finds closure. If it’s not the Holloway family, that some other family finds closure.

Oh dear Lord, Klaas!  You know what I thought when I saw kkthy.
 
If Crazy went down there and found a bone, he'll be acquitted for sure.

Does not appear to be the same person.

I'm sorry, Klaas, I should have included a chuckling monkey.     So, possibly, we have heard from one of the tourists.

My apologies to kkthy, and good for him/her!

[Tylergal]

As far as male or female determination. With only tooth structure and jaw bone, your not going to have a general dentist make that distinction. It may be possible for a anthropologist to give an opinion. I would recommend xrays to compare any fillings or rotations with her past records. Any DNA would be nice in the pulp chambers of the teeth.

Determination of the teeth can be made from Natalee's dental records, which I am sure Beth has.  Bone can be removed (from pulp of tooth) and compared to Beth's DNA to produce identification.

[Tylergal]

HLN just said the jaw bone IS HUMAN (the donkey population is surely confused).  NG covering tonight again.

I thought that was already determined since they said it was from a small white female.  Silly me for assuming small white female human when it could have been anything. 

I think there are reasons to assume it is a small white female, but one would be called prejudice to make that determination on a public board but there are reasons this can be ascertained readily but don't say I said that.  Read the Bell Curve.

[Monken]

Hi all : concerning the jawbone being a young white female: Last night on NG all three of those questions were answered by an expert; 1. female because of the jaw being more pointed at the chin & men have two bumps in the area under the bottom lip. 2. & 3. young & white only have to do with the remaining molar, in caucasians there is an extra bump on the inside part of the tooth that is not present in any other race & the root of the tooth continues to grow into the jaw as you age & therefore would be much deeper in the jawbone if the person were older; the tooth apparently was not deeply set indicating a (young) female. Hope this helps! 

[Tamikosmom]

According to Nancy Grace's Forensic Anthropologist panelist ....


NANCY GRACE
Jawbone Found in Aruba, Likely to be White Female
Aired November 16, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls and we are headed toward forensic anthropologist from the Florida Gulf Coast University, Heather Walsh-Haney.

Heather, are you with me?

HEAThER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST: Yes, I am, Nancy.

GRACE: Heather, a lot of questions for you tonight. Number one, how can you look at a jaw bone? I can understand with possibly the chest bones, the pelvic bones, maybe the legs. But how can you look at a jaw bone and tell the difference between a male and female adult?

WALSH-HANEY: Ah, well, what you do is you actually look at the chin area. And in females, the midline of the chin is very pointy. In males, it`s actually blunt on the midline and then on either side, let`s say if you put your index finger right underneath your lip on the midline, on males, you`ll have two large bumps there. So right away, you can tell the difference between male and female.

GRACE: So it`s just that easy.

WALSH-HANEY: It is that easy. I promise.

GRACE: OK. Now, next question, Heather.

With me is Heather Walsh-Haney, forensic anthropologist from the Florida Gulf Coast University.

We`re taking your calls so if you`ve got a question for Heather, call it in now.

OK, Heather, you`ve explained that a male has two bumps right under the lip in the midsection of the face.

WALSH-HANEY: Yes.

GRACE: All right. How can you determine that it is a white female as opposed to an Hispanic, Asian, African-American? How do you tell?

WALSH-HANEY: Well, it tells me that they`ve got a molar and the molars of different races have different shapes and different contours. So what they`ve probably done is looked at the contours of the teeth, the crevices and the bumps, and by looking at these crevices and bumps, they`ve determined without a doubt that it`s someone who`s white or of European ancestry.

GRACE: OK. Hold on. So your back teeth. You`re referring to your back teeth, upper and lowers.

WALSH-HANEY: Yes.

GRACE: Tell me that one more time. How can you tell it`s a white female versus Asian, Hispanic, African-American? How do you know it`s a white female?

WALSH-HANEY: We know it`s a white female because the chewing teeth in the back of your mouth, your molars, in whites, they will have an extra bump on them, a bump that`s on the tongue side of that tooth.

And so it sounds to me like they have one of those molars that allowed them to be so doggone determined that it is a white female.

GRACE: So you`re telling me that no other ethnicity has that bump on the back molar?

WALSH-HANEY: Well, typically, no. It tends to be with whites.

GRACE: OK. Let me -- last question. Last question that I know of right now, Heather Walsh-Haney.

Heather, joining us from Ft. Myers, Florida tonight.

Now, Heather, how can you tell between a young adult white female and an older adult white female, say, 20 versus 40 or 20 versus 50? How do you do that?

WALSH-HANEY: Ah, well, you do that because, as your teeth grow, they grow from the crown first and then the roots that anchor into the bone. And so what we expect to see with a girl Natalee`s age -- 18 -- is we expect to see that roots for those molars are not quite complete.

The wisdom teeth that many of us get pulled out, for her may not be completely developed yet. And so they`re looking at the size, the length and the completeness of those tooth roots.

They may also be looking at the enamel, the white part of the teeth. They`re looking at the enamel seeing if there is evidence of filling, maybe chipping, maybe wear, that would be indicative of someone who is much older than Natalee.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/16/ng.01.html

[Kiwi]

According to Nancy Grace's Forensic Anthropologist panelist ....


NANCY GRACE
Jawbone Found in Aruba, Likely to be White Female
Aired November 16, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls and we are headed toward forensic anthropologist from the Florida Gulf Coast University, Heather Walsh-Haney.

Heather, are you with me?

HEAThER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST: Yes, I am, Nancy.

GRACE: Heather, a lot of questions for you tonight. Number one, how can you look at a jaw bone? I can understand with possibly the chest bones, the pelvic bones, maybe the legs. But how can you look at a jaw bone and tell the difference between a male and female adult?

WALSH-HANEY: Ah, well, what you do is you actually look at the chin area. And in females, the midline of the chin is very pointy. In males, it`s actually blunt on the midline and then on either side, let`s say if you put your index finger right underneath your lip on the midline, on males, you`ll have two large bumps there. So right away, you can tell the difference between male and female.

GRACE: So it`s just that easy.

WALSH-HANEY: It is that easy. I promise.

GRACE: OK. Now, next question, Heather.

With me is Heather Walsh-Haney, forensic anthropologist from the Florida Gulf Coast University.

We`re taking your calls so if you`ve got a question for Heather, call it in now.

OK, Heather, you`ve explained that a male has two bumps right under the lip in the midsection of the face.

WALSH-HANEY: Yes.

GRACE: All right. How can you determine that it is a white female as opposed to an Hispanic, Asian, African-American? How do you tell?

WALSH-HANEY: Well, it tells me that they`ve got a molar and the molars of different races have different shapes and different contours. So what they`ve probably done is looked at the contours of the teeth, the crevices and the bumps, and by looking at these crevices and bumps, they`ve determined without a doubt that it`s someone who`s white or of European ancestry.

GRACE: OK. Hold on. So your back teeth. You`re referring to your back teeth, upper and lowers.

WALSH-HANEY: Yes.

GRACE: Tell me that one more time. How can you tell it`s a white female versus Asian, Hispanic, African-American? How do you know it`s a white female?

WALSH-HANEY: We know it`s a white female because the chewing teeth in the back of your mouth, your molars, in whites, they will have an extra bump on them, a bump that`s on the tongue side of that tooth.

And so it sounds to me like they have one of those molars that allowed them to be so doggone determined that it is a white female.

GRACE: So you`re telling me that no other ethnicity has that bump on the back molar?

WALSH-HANEY: Well, typically, no. It tends to be with whites.

GRACE: OK. Let me -- last question. Last question that I know of right now, Heather Walsh-Haney.

Heather, joining us from Ft. Myers, Florida tonight.

Now, Heather, how can you tell between a young adult white female and an older adult white female, say, 20 versus 40 or 20 versus 50? How do you do that?

WALSH-HANEY: Ah, well, you do that because, as your teeth grow, they grow from the crown first and then the roots that anchor into the bone. And so what we expect to see with a girl Natalee`s age -- 18 -- is we expect to see that roots for those molars are not quite complete.

The wisdom teeth that many of us get pulled out, for her may not be completely developed yet. And so they`re looking at the size, the length and the completeness of those tooth roots.

They may also be looking at the enamel, the white part of the teeth. They`re looking at the enamel seeing if there is evidence of filling, maybe chipping, maybe wear, that would be indicative of someone who is much older than Natalee.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/16/ng.01.html

Ok nice transcript thank you. As far as race goes this expert is telling you that there is about a 60% chance of the shape of the tooth is caucasoid. What would be more of a find is whether the shape matches Beth's same molar. Variations are at about 4 million plus. Page 297 Dental Anatomy and Occlusion Dr Kraus, Jordan and Abrams 1969. Sorry the book was behind me in my office. A composite of the tooth, of Natalee's immediate family would be the way to go if no DNA.

[Tamikosmom]

It appears that Jossy Mansur is the source in regards to the jawbone is connected to a white female.

Janet

+++++

NANCY GRACE
Jawbone Found in Aruba, Likely to be White Female
Aired November 16, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING DIRECTOR AND PUBLISHER, "DIARIO" (via telephone): Well, it`s big news here because everything seems to point to a link with the missing girl, Natalee Holloway. It belongs to a young Caucasian woman. It was found on the strip of beach where Joran admitted he asked a friend to dump Natalee`s body. I mean, the ocean was very rough. The waves came. They ate up some of the beach, but they returned a jawbone, lower jawbone with one tooth in it. The police acted immediately on it. It was found on Friday. On Sunday, two police officers traveled to the Hague with it, and the tests are being done right now. And we may, as soon as tomorrow, know the results.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/16/ng.01.html


Natalee Holloway: Exclusive Jossy Mansur Interview … “jaw bone is human and it belongs to a young white person”
Posted November 16, 2010 by Scared Monkeys

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2010/11/16/natalee-holloway-exclusive-jossy-mansur-interview-jaw-bone-is-human-and-it-belongs-to-a-white-person/

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2010/11/16/the-dana-pretzer-show-on-scared-monkeys-radio-%e2%80%93-tuesday-november-16-2010-%e2%80%93-special-guests-wendy-murphy-blink-from-blink-on-crime-jossy-mansur/

[Buckeye]

A couple of posts by Flippy  at RU:

1) If her jaw appears 5 years later, then she did not "float away" in the deep ocean currents.
2) Drowning victims resurface in warm water. Natalee did not resurface and come ashore in the currents, so she did not drown.

If she did not float away and she did not drown, then the next logical step is that she is weighted down somewhere up-current from where the jaw was found.    


       

Siddalee wrote:
Recently a camera was found in the water off the Florida Keys - the camera had been lost while snorkeling in Aruba!

Flippy  PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:56 pm
 
I don't know the right name for it, but there is a major ocean current that goes directly from Venezuela to Cuba, which then feeds into the gulf stream and would take it right through the keys.

But what it won't do is ever, regardless of time, bring that camera back to Aruba. So if the bone is Natalee's, then she never left.   


 

[Tamikosmom]

A couple of posts by Flippy  at RU:

1) If her jaw appears 5 years later, then she did not "float away" in the deep ocean currents.
2) Drowning victims resurface in warm water. Natalee did not resurface and come ashore in the currents, so she did not drown.

If she did not float away and she did not drown, then the next logical step is that she is weighted down somewhere up-current from where the jaw was found.    


       

Siddalee wrote:
Recently a camera was found in the water off the Florida Keys - the camera had been lost while snorkeling in Aruba!

Flippy  PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:56 pm
 
I don't know the right name for it, but there is a major ocean current that goes directly from Venezuela to Cuba, which then feeds into the gulf stream and would take it right through the keys.

But what it won't do is ever, regardless of time, bring that camera back to Aruba. So if the bone is Natalee's, then she never left.   


 

Buckeye

Is Arashi Beach "up current" from the Palm Beach area?  According to Kyle Kingman the trap was located not far from the Arash Beach.

Janet

[Buckeye]

It appears that Jossy Mansur is the source in regards to the jawbone is connected to a white female.

Janet






From CNN quote on page 9 of this thread:

The prosecutor said the bone was initially examined by a forensic expert in Aruba, who determined the bone was from a young woman. But Blanken cautioned the final determination would be made by the forensic institute in the Netherlands.

[Buckeye]

A couple of posts by Flippy  at RU:

1) If her jaw appears 5 years later, then she did not "float away" in the deep ocean currents.
2) Drowning victims resurface in warm water. Natalee did not resurface and come ashore in the currents, so she did not drown.

If she did not float away and she did not drown, then the next logical step is that she is weighted down somewhere up-current from where the jaw was found.    


       

Siddalee wrote:
Recently a camera was found in the water off the Florida Keys - the camera had been lost while snorkeling in Aruba!

Flippy  PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:56 pm
 
I don't know the right name for it, but there is a major ocean current that goes directly from Venezuela to Cuba, which then feeds into the gulf stream and would take it right through the keys.

But what it won't do is ever, regardless of time, bring that camera back to Aruba. So if the bone is Natalee's, then she never left.   


 

Buckeye

Is Arashi Beach "up current" from the Palm Beach area?  According to Kyle Kingman the trap was located not far from the Arash Beach.

Janet

Who knows which way the current was running in the storm??

If it wasn't planted....I'm leaning a little towards the wash out from Bubali like Florida Katz described.....or from outside the cage....the mandible was not in the cage, that's why the skull looked small (it wasn't intact).

Too bad nobody roped off the area and searched.... Those kids were always around the Mill Resort and that area.

[Tamikosmom]

It appears that Jossy Mansur is the source in regards to the jawbone is connected to a white female.

Janet

From CNN quote on page 9 of this thread:

The prosecutor said the bone was initially examined by a forensic expert in Aruba, who determined the bone was from a young woman. But Blanken cautioned the final determination would be made by the forensic institute in the Netherlands.

Thanks Buckeye.

It would now appear that Blanken was the source of info which Jossy revealed on both the Nancy Grace and Dana Pretzer shows.

When I consider the words of Nancy Grace's guest panelist ... somehow I believe the forensic expert in Aruba was able to determine by observing the jawbone that it was connected to a young white female.  If NFI determines otherwise ... this wannabe detective will be very suspicious.

 

Janet
 

[Blonde]

Klaas where was the video 24 bag pictures in relation to your map and where the jaw bone was found.

[Blonde]

Klaas where was the video 24 bag pictures in relation to your map and where the jaw bone was found.

[Tamikosmom]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/11/17/aruba.bone.found/

Tests may soon tell if bone in Holloway case is human
Nancy Grace
By the CNN Wire


(CNN) -- Investigators could know as early as Wednesday whether a jawbone found on an Aruban beach last week belongs to an animal or a human, authorities said.

If it is human, authorities will then attempt to find out whether it belongs to missing Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway, who was last seen on the island in 2005.

Part of the bone is undergoing forensic testing at the Netherlands Forensic Institute in The Hague, Netherlands, according to Aruban prosecutor Peter Blanken.

"They are testing for a DNA match," said Blanken.

Inge Oevering, a spokeswoman for the forensic institute, said the length of testing will depend on the condition of the material, but it normally takes about a week.

The institute's findings will be sent back to the prosecutor's office in Aruba, which will decide whether to make the results public, she said. Oevering declined to provide a description of the material.

Blanken said a part of a jawbone with a tooth was found on Friday by an American tourist near the Phoenix Hotel, a large resort on the western side of Aruba. He took it to the police, Blanken said.

Contacted by CNN, the hotel referred questions to local authorities.

The Dutch paper De Telegraaf similarly reported Tuesday the jawbone was found near the Phoenix Hotel, a location that has been mentioned by Joran Van der Sloot, who was arrested twice in connection with Holloway's disappearance but has not been charged. He has maintained his innocence in her disappearance.

The newspaper said a tourist couple found the bone on the beach and turned it in to the hotel clerk, who alerted authorities, offering a slightly different version of events than Blanken.

The prosecutor said the bone was initially examined by a forensic expert in Aruba, who determined the bone was from a young woman. But Blanken cautioned the final determination would be made by the forensic institute in the Netherlands.

"I'm happy that it's human. And the initial finding is that it's from a young woman, so maybe we will be able to solve this case. I hope so. But we will wait to see what the findings are," he said.

Holloway was 18 when she was last seen in the early hours of May 30, 2005, leaving an Oranjestad, Aruba, nightclub with van der Sloot and two other men. She was visiting the island with about 100 classmates to celebrate their graduation from Mountain Brook High School in suburban Birmingham, Alabama.

Van der Sloot, 23, is jailed in Lima, Peru, awaiting trial on a murder charge in the death of Peruvian student Stephany Flores. Her body was found in May in a hotel room registered to van der Sloot. The two were seen entering the room on a surveillance camera.

Van der Sloot is also charged with a count of wire fraud and a count of extortion in Alabama for allegedly attempting to extort more than $250,000 from Holloway's family in return for disclosing the location of her body.

CNN's Susan Candiotti, Laura Perez Maestro, Brian Walker and CNN Radio's Ninette Sosa contributed to this report.

Thanks Klaas.

Blanken's happiness bothers me.  Could his intentions be to convince Peru to put the Stephany Flores case on hold and have Joran extradited to Aruba to face charges of related to the disposal of a body?

Janet

[Tamikosmom]

According to Nancy Grace's Forensic Anthropologist panelist ....

NANCY GRACE
Jawbone Found in Aruba, Likely to be White Female
Aired November 16, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls and we are headed toward forensic anthropologist from the Florida Gulf Coast University, Heather Walsh-Haney.

<snipped>
 
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/16/ng.01.html

Ok nice transcript thank you. As far as race goes this expert is telling you that there is about a 60% chance of the shape of the tooth is caucasoid. What would be more of a find is whether the shape matches Beth's same molar. Variations are at about 4 million plus. Page 297 Dental Anatomy and Occlusion Dr Kraus, Jordan and Abrams 1969. Sorry the book was behind me in my office. A composite of the tooth, of Natalee's immediate family would be the way to go if no DNA.

Does a comparison with Natalee Holloway's own dental records require DNA?  I may be wrong but I though dental exrays were akin to fingerprints.

Janet

++++++

UPDATE: Is there finally a clue to Natalee's fate?
Last Update: 9:05 pm   

UPDATE:    Peter Blanken, an Aruban prosecutor said a forensic expert examined the bone found near an Aruban hotel and determined it was from a young woman. 

DE TELEGRAAF says Aruban Chief Prosecutor Peter Blanken is in the Netherlands but had no comment on the case.  Although the age of the bone has not been determined there are apparently intact teeth which would make a DNA check against Natalee Holloway's dental records possible.

 http://www.cbs42.com/content/localnews/story/UPDATE-Is-there-finally-a-clue-to-Natalees-fate/3qPqkOKkW0WHGa74m97nPw.cspx

[Curly]

I don't think Peru will let him go (IF this turns out to be Natalee). He's already awaiting trial there.