Natalee Holloway Case Discussion #851 11/16/10 - 11/20/10

[jjayinthemorning]

Ok, may I be the first to say that we can assume this is Natalee's jawbone?
Yes, it is, and that's a major breakthrough in the case... or is it?

If the ocean yielded something after the storm then there's more out there, just a matter of time. I'm curious to see TES involvement.

Also curious to know Joran's reaction to the news.

Edit to correct sp.  MB

[klaasend]

Klaas where was the video 24 bag pictures in relation to your map and where the jaw bone was found.

The jawbone was found a little bit south of the bag pictures.  The bag pictures were near the Marriott

[2NJSons_Mom]

Ok, may I be the first to say that we can assume this is Natalee's jawbone?
Yes, it is, and that's a major breakthrough in the case... or is it?

If the ocean yielded something after the storm then there's more out there, just a matter of time. I'm curious to see TES involvement.

Also curious to know Joran's reaction to the news.
Edit to correct sp.  MB

I don't think you are the first to say and can you explain what you mean by TES involvement?  

[Titch]

Hello everyone! Long time!

Just an fyi (even though alot of us already know this)... Aruba has no DP. Since the crime against Natalee happened before the crime against Stephany, Urine ahem Joran could be extradited back to the Netherlands for his hearing. Since they are anti death penalty, and since they may have a hard time once they acquire him to send him back to Peru for possible execution, I believe this could end up being heard in the Hague...which is where cross juridiction of various international crimes are heard. If this mandible is really Natalee, Aruba could very well get a shot at Joran first. If they find him guilty of this crime (which we all know he is) and if his mother had anything to do with planting this "evidence" then I hope she serves life in prison along with her son. Of course I wish for something worse to happen to this ugly overgrown cellulite filled piece of chit... 

http://www.aruba.com/ExploreAruba/IslandFacts/law.aspx

Aruba Judicial System Details
OVERVIEW
Aruba criminal system is mirrored after the Dutch criminal justice system. It traditionally distinguishes itself from other criminal justice systems including the U.S. on many aspects including the severity of sanctions imposed.
 
Basic two categories of criminal offenses: (i) felonies equivalent (“misdrijf”) and (ii) misdemeanor (“overtreding”)
 
ATTORNEYS
Appointed by the State or privately engaged.
Admitted to the Bar of the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba.
 
DUTIES AND POWERS OF THE PROSECUTOR
Limited & specific powers:
Denominated as chief of investigation by law. Rarely directly involved in the investigation, usually provides general instructions and police in charge of investigative activities.
Prosecutorial decisions:
Monopoly on which cases go to court. If prosecutor chooses to dismiss a case, that decision can be appealed to the Appellate Court, in which case an order to prosecute could follow. Government/executive branch does not have the power to take prosecutorial decisions.
Prosecuting attorney at trial.
Execution of any sentence imposed.
 
Police investigation is under supervision of prosecutor. Suspect must be informed of his rights.
Suspect has the right to an attorney and not to incriminate himself. Hours of investigation limited. No investigation between 22:00 and 08:00 hours.
Written record is made of all interrogations, not a complete transcript, which will go on file.
 
COURTS AND JUDGES
All judges appointed by the Queen. Not through elections or political appointments. Appointed for life. Judges must follow special, rigorous training of six years to qualify for appointment. Alternate judges can be appointed based on trial experience and specific expertise.
 
Trial by one judge in Court of First Instance of Aruba. Appeals handled by three judges of the Common Courts of Appeals of the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba. Appeals at the Supreme Court in the Hague, Netherlands.
 
Decisions of the Supreme Court do no constitute legally binding precedent. There is no official stare decisis although lower courts tend to follow Supreme Court views.
 
Role of the examining judge: (i) during pre-trial to independently examine the legality of procedural aspects and well-being of suspects; (ii) upon instruction of the trialing judge to examine or cross-examine witnesses at request of defense; cannot take the role of a trial judge.
 
Examining judge as a rule not the same individual as trialing judge, to ensure objectivity and impartiality.
 
PRE-TRIAL
Pre-trial detention possible in cases of felonies in case that there are:
“... facts and/or circumstances that can justify a reasonable suspicion of involvement in a(ny) criminal act ...”
 
VARIOUS PHASES OF DETENTION
- Detention (“aanhouding”): detention for up to six (6) hours; followed by release or
- Arrest/detention (“inverzekeringstelling”): per order of the prosecutor plus 2 x 48 hours
- Examining-judge review of the procedural legality of the first 72 hours of detention
- Detention (“bewaring”): extension of 8 days (so far total 10 days)
- Detention (“gevangenhouding”): extensions and subsequent extensions, possibly leading up to the date of the trial
During this phase, the defense has remedies to file for suspension of detention and/or other injunctive measures.
Place of detention: first 10 days usually a police station; after that to the correction facility.
 
TRIAL
Suspects have right to trial within a reasonable period of time.
Public hearing
No trial by jury, but by a professional judge
No plea-bargaining
No death penalty
No permission required by the prosecutor from the court to go to trial
Indictment presented, at the prerogative of the prosecutor, after investigations have taken place
Defense will have chance to cross-examine witnesses before an examining judge.
Maximum sentences: (i) Life imprisonment; or (ii) limited time. Section 11 Criminal Code
Maximum sentence of limited time sentence is 20 years i.e. 15 plus 5.
Life sentencing has been issued in the past by the Courts.
Death sentence abolished since late 1800's and since then no serious attempts to re-instate same.
 
PRINCIPLES OF LEGALITY (NULLA POENA)
No conduct can be characterized as criminal, unless defined by a specific statute
All legal statutes are subject no very strict interpretation
Newly imposed (heavier sanctioning) cannot be imposed on a suspect retroactively.
Only penalties imposed by statutes may be applied.
 
Requirements of criminal act in general
(a) conduct by a person; (b) which falls under the definition of an offense; (c) is unlawful; and (4) for which the perpetrator must be held guilty
 
Justification grounds for criminal acts
(a) self defense (“noodweer”); (b) official orders by an authorized person (”ambtelijk bevel”); (c) hardship/necessity (“noodtoestand”)
 
Access to information in pre-trial stage
No obligation by the prosecutor a/o investigating officers to disclose details of investigation to third parties, including the media.
Press conferences held by prosecution not customary
Prosecutor's office has limited authority to disclose details of the investigation to the suspects.
 
Legal age and prosecution
Below 18 years is considered a minor
In principle no jail time, but if convicted of a felony, placed at disposal of the Government a/o equivalent to “juvenile hall” a/o in combination with half of an adult sentence. In case of life sentence, maximum of 10 years.
 
NOTE:
Although this article has been prepared carefully, it may only serve as a summary of the facts presented and its contents should not be relied upon blindly. The text is intended only as an overview of fundamental regulations of the subject and as such may contain inaccuracies and simplifications in its description of the applicable laws, regulations and case law. Application of rules and regulations in each case are on account of special circumstances and it is recommended that advice of counsel be sought in dealing with the application of the law.
 

[Nut44x4]

I don't think Peru will let him go (IF this turns out to be Natalee). He's already awaiting trial there.

ITA

[Nut44x4]

Ok, may I be the first to say that we can assume this is Natalee's jawbone?
Yes, it is, and that's a major breakthrough in the case... or is it?

If the ocean yielded something after the storm then there's more out there, just a matter of time. I'm curious to see TES involvement.

Also curious to know Joran's reaction to the news.
Edit to correct sp.  MB

I don't think you are the first to say and can you explain what you mean by TES involvement?  

I am not JJ, but I think he means something along the line of TES going back to search for more remains, if the jawbone is Nat's.

[Titch]

I don't think Peru will let him go (IF this turns out to be Natalee). He's already awaiting trial there.

ITA

I'd like to agree but Peru may not have a choice. I hope they don;t let him go...really hope they torture him!

[mariloo]

I don't think Peru will let him go (IF this turns out to be Natalee). He's already awaiting trial there.

ITA

I certainly hope not.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Ok, may I be the first to say that we can assume this is Natalee's jawbone?
Yes, it is, and that's a major breakthrough in the case... or is it?

If the ocean yielded something after the storm then there's more out there, just a matter of time. I'm curious to see TES involvement.

Also curious to know Joran's reaction to the news.
Edit to correct sp.  MB

I don't think you are the first to say and can you explain what you mean by TES involvement?  

I am not JJ, but I think he means something along the line of TES going back to search for more remains, if the jawbone is Nat's.

It sounded like TES had not been involved prior the way it was posted....that's why I asked.  

[Buckeye]

I don't think Peru will let him go (IF this turns out to be Natalee). He's already awaiting trial there.

ITA

I'd like to agree but Peru may not have a choice. I hope they don;t let him go...really hope they torture him!

It is my understanding that the Netherlands (Aruba) does not have an extradition treaty with Peru.  Anita started a petition to have Joran serve his Peruvian sentence in a Dutch jail.

[crazybabyborg]

An island of the Lesser Antilles, located within the Leeward Antilles island arc, Aruba is a generally flat, river-less island renowned for its white, sandy beaches. Most of these are located on the western and southern coasts of the island, which are relatively sheltered from fierce ocean currents. The northern and eastern coasts, lacking this protection, are considerably more battered by the sea and have been left largely untouched by humans.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Aruba


General Ocean Currents:

[Kiwi]

According to Nancy Grace's Forensic Anthropologist panelist ....

NANCY GRACE
Jawbone Found in Aruba, Likely to be White Female
Aired November 16, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls and we are headed toward forensic anthropologist from the Florida Gulf Coast University, Heather Walsh-Haney.

<snipped>
 
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/16/ng.01.html

Ok nice transcript thank you. As far as race goes this expert is telling you that there is about a 60% chance of the shape of the tooth is caucasoid. What would be more of a find is whether the shape matches Beth's same molar. Variations are at about 4 million plus. Page 297 Dental Anatomy and Occlusion Dr Kraus, Jordan and Abrams 1969. Sorry the book was behind me in my office. A composite of the tooth, of Natalee's immediate family would be the way to go if no DNA.

Does a comparison with Natalee Holloway's own dental records require DNA?  I may be wrong but I though dental exrays were akin to fingerprints.

Janet

++++++

UPDATE: Is there finally a clue to Natalee's fate?
Last Update: 9:05 pm  

UPDATE:    Peter Blanken, an Aruban prosecutor said a forensic expert examined the bone found near an Aruban hotel and determined it was from a young woman.  

DE TELEGRAAF says Aruban Chief Prosecutor Peter Blanken is in the Netherlands but had no comment on the case.  Although the age of the bone has not been determined there are apparently intact teeth which would make a DNA check against Natalee Holloway's dental records possible.

 http://www.cbs42.com/content/localnews/story/UPDATE-Is-there-finally-a-clue-to-Natalees-fate/3qPqkOKkW0WHGa74m97nPw.cspx

When I've released a patients dental records for comparison using an xrays, only a few things are taken into account. If the tooth has a defect that shows on her dental records that match a filling, or unusual rotation or tipping. More teeth would be better. The morphology issue may help, if Aruba had the will to match Natalee's family with what they have.

[jjayinthemorning]

Ok, may I be the first to say that we can assume this is Natalee's jawbone?
Yes, it is, and that's a major breakthrough in the case... or is it?

If the ocean yielded something after the storm then there's more out there, just a matter of time. I'm curious to see TES involvement.

Also curious to know Joran's reaction to the news.
Edit to correct sp.  MB

I don't think you are the first to say and can you explain what you mean by TES involvement?  

I am not JJ, but I think he means something along the line of TES going back to search for more remains, if the jawbone is Nat's.

Thanks Nut. Yep, that's what I was wondering.
Miss JJ.

[jjayinthemorning]

An island of the Lesser Antilles, located within the Leeward Antilles island arc, Aruba is a generally flat, river-less island renowned for its white, sandy beaches. Most of these are located on the western and southern coasts of the island, which are relatively sheltered from fierce ocean currents. The northern and eastern coasts, lacking this protection, are considerably more battered by the sea and have been left largely untouched by humans.

 

The tropical storm came up from the Yucatan Peninsula I think, that would make it like a washing machine in the local waters, like a churning of the shallows around the island. Many hidden sunken ships are uncovered in hurricanes because of the motion of the ocean. The tidal pull brings up the bottom of the ocean. So it makes sense that bones would be washed up like shells.

[Titch]

According to Nancy Grace's Forensic Anthropologist panelist ....

NANCY GRACE
Jawbone Found in Aruba, Likely to be White Female
Aired November 16, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls and we are headed toward forensic anthropologist from the Florida Gulf Coast University, Heather Walsh-Haney.

<snipped>
 
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/16/ng.01.html

Ok nice transcript thank you. As far as race goes this expert is telling you that there is about a 60% chance of the shape of the tooth is caucasoid. What would be more of a find is whether the shape matches Beth's same molar. Variations are at about 4 million plus. Page 297 Dental Anatomy and Occlusion Dr Kraus, Jordan and Abrams 1969. Sorry the book was behind me in my office. A composite of the tooth, of Natalee's immediate family would be the way to go if no DNA.

Does a comparison with Natalee Holloway's own dental records require DNA?  I may be wrong but I though dental exrays were akin to fingerprints.

Janet

++++++

UPDATE: Is there finally a clue to Natalee's fate?
Last Update: 9:05 pm  

UPDATE:    Peter Blanken, an Aruban prosecutor said a forensic expert examined the bone found near an Aruban hotel and determined it was from a young woman.  

DE TELEGRAAF says Aruban Chief Prosecutor Peter Blanken is in the Netherlands but had no comment on the case.  Although the age of the bone has not been determined there are apparently intact teeth which would make a DNA check against Natalee Holloway's dental records possible.

 http://www.cbs42.com/content/localnews/story/UPDATE-Is-there-finally-a-clue-to-Natalees-fate/3qPqkOKkW0WHGa74m97nPw.cspx

When I've released a patients dental records for comparison using an xrays, only a few things are taken into account. If the tooth has a defect that shows on her dental records that match a filling, or unusual rotation or tipping. More teeth would be better. The morphology issue may help, if Aruba had the will to match Natalee's family with what they have.

Natalee had braces prior. The orthodontist would have taken an impression of her full set of teeth. Wouldn't the experts be able to use Natalee's dental cast to compare it to the tooth and/or teeth found in the mandible? Thanks much Kiwi for your knowledge in this area.

[Ono]

I hope to God it's her, and I don't really give a damn how it got there. I do however, extremely doubt that this just washed up after 5 1/2 years.

Me too ...

I still refuse to hold my breath......but I agree.

Perhaps it's an Arubian/Anita feeble 'round about way' attempt at trying to have Joran sent back to Aruba from his Peruvian justice -- if it really does turn out to be Natalee???

I just am so completely cynical in regards to anything relating to Aruba---anything goes in my imagination. 

[2NJSons_Mom]

An island of the Lesser Antilles, located within the Leeward Antilles island arc, Aruba is a generally flat, river-less island renowned for its white, sandy beaches. Most of these are located on the western and southern coasts of the island, which are relatively sheltered from fierce ocean currents. The northern and eastern coasts, lacking this protection, are considerably more battered by the sea and have been left largely untouched by humans.

 

The tropical storm came up from the Yucatan Peninsula I think, that would make it like a washing machine in the local waters, like a churning of the shallows around the island. Many hidden sunken ships are uncovered in hurricanes because of the motion of the ocean. The tidal pull brings up the bottom of the ocean. So it makes sense that bones would be washed up like shells.

I just found this on Visit Aruba Bulletin Board:

Saturday, November 13th, 2010, 03:44 PM
johntheott 
Junior Member   Join Date: November 1st, 2006
Location: Winchester, MA
Age: 81
Posts: 13
 
 
 Re: BIG waves at Bucuti!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My wife and I were in Aruba last week staying at the Divi. It was not a good week weather wise! Flying down on Sunday, we were treated to a massive cloud formation to the East of us as we neared the island with clouds in the distance piled up, it seemed, as high as we were, pretty sure it was Tomas!! We arrived on time and checked in.

The sky was a thin overcast with the sun peeking through and this was the rule for any sun we got that week. There were some periods of bright sun but that was very unusual, The sea was quiet the early part of the week through Thursday and we did get some beach time between days of drizzle and periods of tropical rain. Something we haven't seen before was the Venezuelan coast visible from the beach. Normally you have to go to the other end of the island to see it.

Thursday night the surf started to build and by Friday morning was in full swing! Large breakers were battering the beach! I estimate some a high as 8 or 9 feet. There were some brave people venturing into the surf but they were getting tossed about and many quit and retired to their lounges. There was a group of island people surfing off of Casa del Mar next door with mixed success. The water line was slowly creeping up towards the resort as the sand disappeared. This continued all day with mostly clouded skies and scattered showers! There were some large squalls off shore with much thunder as well.

Saturday, the surf continued, down somewhat to about 5 or 6 foot waves but the damage was considerable! We had friends that walked the beach up to Costa Linda and they said that the beach was mostly gone from Casa del Mar to the North, Many palapas down or gone and rocks everywhere. On Sunday, before we left, there were 7 or 8 palapas down in the surf in front of the Vista buildings where early in the week there was as much as 100 feet to the water's edge.

As an additional note, planes were landing from the South all week as the trades were reversed by Tomas. At night, the wind would die and the trees were just hanging with no motion what so ever. It was very oppressive in the heat!

We had a great time, as usual, seeing old friends and making new ones. Aruba is a great place to go in spite of the weather but I have to admit we've had better!!
__________________
 
http://bb.visitaruba.com/f2/big-waves-bucuti-15687/

[Ono]

My favorite was a few years ago their new tourism slogan was:

"Come to Aruba  - the only thing missing is YOU"

  "But when you get here--bye, bye birdie!"

[Titch]

NVM, I can answer my own question. Natalee's orthodontic cast (which would have been made prior to her getting braces) can be compared with the mandible and it's tooth/teeth to see if it's her. Please refer to the following:

Forensic Odontology

http://www.policensw.com/info/forensic/forensic5.html

[Ono]

Hi Monkeys! I don't know if it is just me but this feels different this time. I really feel like it is Natalee. I hope so anyway...her family needs some closure. I, too, am not sure how it was "spotted" on the beach....all broken shell pieces look like bones.  Hope we hear some new news soon.

Many of us feel the same way.  This feels different whether the jawbone was "planted" or found accidentally, it feels different.

I agree-it's all too convenient.  If not now-it will be soon ...  Aruba wants to erase Natalee from their blackboard.  I don't see how that will ever be possible, however.  The American public is not stupid.