Kyron Horman, 7 years old, PORTLAND, OR #36 11/21/10 - 12/05/10

[Monkey King]

Happy Thanksgiving Simians!! Everyone stay safe, there's a lot of morons on the road!!

[Puzzler]

they say that there are 2 outcomes from alcoholism-insanity or death.

The reason people drive drunk is because they have no judgment.

They think that they have control and are smarter than everyone else.  They are "insane".  It's all part of that denial.  I's all part of the crazy disease called "alcoholism".   

It sounds like some people on here have never ever seen an alcoholic, which astounds me. 

There appears to be no way to explain the insanity of alcoholism if one has not seen it in action .  People have made noble efforts on here to explain it, but it just isn't working.  Oh well.  Of course, it manifests itslef in different ways, but I think the arrogance seems to be consistent.

There is a third possible outcome:  become a recovering alcholic...people do it everyday.  I've seen it happen.

You cannot explain what people do while an alcholic because the ONLY thing they consider is where/how to get the next drink.

That's why it's considered an illness and why if you love someone and know they're in that condition, you should at least try to get them help.  Of course, only an alcoholic themselves can change if they want...but in their state...they don't think of recovery, the think of the next drink...that's why they need help.

[mamacrazy30]

as it stands i don't even know if TH really had a drinking problem or not.  Just 'cause KH said she did in divorce docs. does not make it so.  i know that at one time she had a dwi, and that was in 2005.  that is all i know (on record) of her drinking problem.

[no rose colored glasses]

as it stands i don't even know if TH really had a drinking problem or not.  Just 'cause KH said she did in divorce docs. does not make it so.  i know that at one time she had a dwi, and that was in 2005.  that is all i know (on record) of her drinking problem.

True, so what do we really know? A DUI in 2005 that is the only thing verified that I'm aware of.

[Monkey King]

Alcoholisim: Imagine someone standing in front of an on coming truck-everyday.
Enabling: When you see someone standing in front of an on coming truck and you push them out of the way and you get hit instead.

I've booked in people who couldn't even sit in a chair who were DUI. I've seen people dead from alcohol poisoning.
Be safe, don't be a statistic. Drink responsibly.

[sebastian]

they say that there are 2 outcomes from alcoholism-insanity or death.

The reason people drive drunk is because they have no judgment.

They think that they have control and are smarter than everyone else.  They are "insane".  It's all part of that denial.  I's all part of the crazy disease called "alcoholism".   

It sounds like some people on here have never ever seen an alcoholic, which astounds me. 

There appears to be no way to explain the insanity of alcoholism if one has not seen it in action .  People have made noble efforts on here to explain it, but it just isn't working.  Oh well.  Of course, it manifests itslef in different ways, but I think the arrogance seems to be consistent.

I have seen an alcoholic up close and personal. An in-law. I have seen what the alcoholism did to his kids. I have seen the enabling that went on for years and years from his wife. I am well aware that alcholics are sick. I am also well aware that when you bring a child into this world, it is your job to protect them at all costs. When you leave your child alone with an alcoholic you are not protecting them. I am not a perfect person. I have made many many mistakes in my life. I am also the first one to forgive those that have made mistakes. I just will not give a parent a pass when it comes to allowing an alcholic spouse to be alone with their child when they have OBVIOUSLY already figured out the problem. If that makes me "arrogant" than I think I am in really good company. NoRosecoloredglasses comes to mind. Love love love NoRosecoloredglasses!

[sebastian]

Alcoholisim: Imagine someone standing in front of an on coming truck-everyday.
Enabling: When you see someone standing in front of an on coming truck and you push them out of the way and you get hit instead.

I've booked in people who couldn't even sit in a chair who were DUI. I've seen people dead from alcohol poisoning.
Be safe, don't be a statistic. Drink responsibly.

Monkey King, I always love your posts! You rock! Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

[no rose colored glasses]

Alcoholisim: Imagine someone standing in front of an on coming truck-everyday.
Enabling: When you see someone standing in front of an on coming truck and you push them out of the way and you get hit instead.

I've booked in people who couldn't even sit in a chair who were DUI. I've seen people dead from alcohol poisoning.
Be safe, don't be a statistic. Drink responsibly.

  I hope everyone has a safe Thanksgiving.

[no rose colored glasses]

they say that there are 2 outcomes from alcoholism-insanity or death.

The reason people drive drunk is because they have no judgment.

They think that they have control and are smarter than everyone else.  They are "insane".  It's all part of that denial.  I's all part of the crazy disease called "alcoholism".   

It sounds like some people on here have never ever seen an alcoholic, which astounds me. 

There appears to be no way to explain the insanity of alcoholism if one has not seen it in action .  People have made noble efforts on here to explain it, but it just isn't working.  Oh well.  Of course, it manifests itslef in different ways, but I think the arrogance seems to be consistent.

I have seen an alcoholic up close and personal. An in-law. I have seen what the alcoholism did to his kids. I have seen the enabling that went on for years and years from his wife. I am well aware that alcholics are sick. I am also well aware that when you bring a child into this world, it is your job to protect them at all costs. When you leave your child alone with an alcoholic you are not protecting them. I am not a perfect person. I have made many many mistakes in my life. I am also the first one to forgive those that have made mistakes. I just will not give a parent a pass when it comes to allowing an alcholic spouse to be alone with their child when they have OBVIOUSLY already figured out the problem. If that makes me "arrogant" than I think I am in really good company. NoRosecoloredglasses comes to mind. Love love love NoRosecoloredglasses!

  Thank-you sebastian, I'm in really good company as well.

[Nana29]

they say that there are 2 outcomes from alcoholism-insanity or death.

The reason people drive drunk is because they have no judgment.

They think that they have control and are smarter than everyone else.  They are "insane".  It's all part of that denial.  I's all part of the crazy disease called "alcoholism".   

It sounds like some people on here have never ever seen an alcoholic, which astounds me. 

There appears to be no way to explain the insanity of alcoholism if one has not seen it in action .  People have made noble efforts on here to explain it, but it just isn't working.  Oh well.  Of course, it manifests itslef in different ways, but I think the arrogance seems to be consistent.

BBM I think HK was referring tho the arrogance of the alcoholic...

[islandmonkey]

they say that there are 2 outcomes from alcoholism-insanity or death.

The reason people drive drunk is because they have no judgment.

They think that they have control and are smarter than everyone else.  They are "insane".  It's all part of that denial.  I's all part of the crazy disease called "alcoholism".   

It sounds like some people on here have never ever seen an alcoholic, which astounds me. 

There appears to be no way to explain the insanity of alcoholism if one has not seen it in action .  People have made noble efforts on here to explain it, but it just isn't working.  Oh well.  Of course, it manifests itslef in different ways, but I think the arrogance seems to be consistent.

My brother is an alcoholic and has been for close to 20 yrs, even when I knew something wasn't right with his actions and wasn't aware it was alcohol, I still made sure he was never around my kids by himself and even when he was I made sure it was a highly controlled enviroment since I was able to clue in to "Whatever" it was......then I found out around the time my daghter was born (19 yrs ago) and to this day he has never nor will ever have any of my kids in his car, just too big of a risk for an accident - not that I think he'd do anything to my kids intentionally, but I was unwilling to go risk it. Last yr he even drove into my house when he was here for a visit, of course he denied he was drunk, but when I saw his car he had already hit something as there was a scratch down the entire right side of the car and his mirror was missing, I called the cops and they put him in jail and then the judge allowed us to have some input and we decided he should be in a residential re-hab. Granted that doesn't mean he will never drink again, so he still isn't allowed to be around my kids alone and again will NEVER have them in his car, so for 19 yrs I have stood by this. Hats off to each and every one who has beat this disease, it's hard as hell to do and you are amazing in my eyes to have come so far and accomplished so much and I also know it's a fight everyday

God Bless Kyron, wishing you were with your mother, father and family today and praying that there will be a miracle and you will be with them at Christmas.

Happy Thanksgiving to all the wonderful monkeys, mods and admin.......you do a hell of a job to keep SM the best of the best 

[islandmonkey]

as it stands i don't even know if TH really had a drinking problem or not.  Just 'cause KH said she did in divorce docs. does not make it so.  i know that at one time she had a dwi, and that was in 2005.  that is all i know (on record) of her drinking problem.

True, so what do we really know? A DUI in 2005 that is the only thing verified that I'm aware of.

Excellent point, divorces under almost every circumstance nasty and a he said/she said    and I have seen a huge percentage of divorce proceeding and filings that are simply an attempt at character assasination (mine was too, problem was my ex couldn't prove ANYTHING he had filed and was destroyed on the stand and I could thru numerous witnesses )

[no rose colored glasses]

IM     Alcoholism and drug addiction are both very hard to overcome, to all that have been able too, you are very brave and determined people. I really believe there are just some people no matter what help they get just can't overcome it. I do hope your brother is able to, and totally understand why you wouldn't want your children driving with him. Hope you and your family are having a wonderful Thanksgiving.

[Kokos Cat]

they say that there are 2 outcomes from alcoholism-insanity or death.

The reason people drive drunk is because they have no judgment.

They think that they have control and are smarter than everyone else.  They are "insane".  It's all part of that denial.  I's all part of the crazy disease called "alcoholism".   

It sounds like some people on here have never ever seen an alcoholic, which astounds me. 

There appears to be no way to explain the insanity of alcoholism if one has not seen it in action .  People have made noble efforts on here to explain it, but it just isn't working.  Oh well.  Of course, it manifests itslef in different ways, but I think the arrogance seems to be consistent.

There is a third possible outcome:  become a recovering alcholic...people do it everyday.  I've seen it happen.

You cannot explain what people do while an alcholic because the ONLY thing they consider is where/how to get the next drink.

That's why it's considered an illness and why if you love someone and know they're in that condition, you should at least try to get them help.  Of course, only an alcoholic themselves can change if they want...but in their state...they don't think of recovery, the think of the next drink...that's why they need help.

Happy Thanksgiving!  ~  Yes, ITA, alcoholism is a disease.  People suffering from him need help.  Their family and loved ones can also benefit from Al-anon, which is a life saving program as is AA.

Thanks for your posts answering my question, Puzzler!  I bizzy burning dinner, so will have to wait until after I put out the fire to read them in detail.  Looking forward to it.

Cheers, Monkeys... 

   <---- PS, I'm toasting with sparkling cider!  (Been there, done that drinking thing... many years of recovery now, thank God.) 

Koko's Cat

[Kokos Cat]

Ooops above post should read, "People suffering from IT, (NOT "him")   
Sheesh.  Weird mistake, there....
I'll have another, cider, please!
 

[Terri]

Alcoholisim: Imagine someone standing in front of an on coming truck-everyday.
Enabling: When you see someone standing in front of an on coming truck and you push them out of the way and you get hit instead.

I've booked in people who couldn't even sit in a chair who were DUI. I've seen people dead from alcohol poisoning.
Be safe, don't be a statistic. Drink responsibly.

 

Thank you so much for that quote....as a recovering enabler that quote is going in several places in my home.  I love it. 

My "enabling of choice" is crack addicts.  I think I have been hit by that truck more than once.      

[islandmonkey]

I love to read Seamus O'Riley and just checked and noticed two recent articles on Ky:

http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2010/11/kyron-desiree-versus-kaine.html

There is a great deal of guilt from both Desiree and Kaine regarding Kyron's disappearance.

Early on, we did not analyze all of Desiree's letters; the guilt was too much.

Desiree left Kaine, at a very young age, in order to seek undisclosed medical treatment. She can reason within herself that if she had not done so, he would be alive today. Why didn't she bring him back to her after the treatment? Why does she need to withhold the treatment? Although everyone is entitled to medical privacy, by even telling the press that she left him, she raised the question of treatment herself.

Kaine alleged some powerful things against Terri Horman in court; yet, if he knew about her substance abuse and instability, why did he not keep Kyron safe with his mother?

Desiree was shown emails that Terri Horman sent in the days after Kyron went missing. This was just last week that police revealed them to her.

She is now speaking against Kaine.

She has now concluded that Terri Horman hated Kyron and blamed him for the destruction of her marriage. The natural question in Desiree's mind:

How is it that Kaine didn't take steps to protect her son from the raging step mother?

As this rift continues, it may get a lot worse. Guilt is a powerful force, and both parents have enough to go around.

Had Desiree not left her son with them, he would be alive.
Had Kaine reacted to Kyron's acting out or reacted to complaints by Kyron about his drunken step mother, and allowed him to live with Desiree, he would be alive today.

They are both in a no-win situation which, if justice is not found for Kyron, is going to spiral out of control.

It could lead to...

Below is an article from Oregonlive.com with quotes in italics and Statement Analysis in bold type. We will continue to view the statements of both parents and any breaking developments.

<snipped>  Great comments also on this one

http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2010/11/kyron-no-answers-for-thanksgiving.html

 This Blog Linked From Here Links
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Wednesday, November 24, 2010
Kyron: No Answers for Thanksgiving

As Thanksgiving is upon us, Desiree Young and Kaine Horman face the Holidays with the painful unknown regarding Kyron's disappearance. It is the coldest November in 25 years in Oregon which must weigh heavily upon Desiree's heart, knowing that Terri Horman still refuses to allow Desiree to give a proper burial to the son she could not save from the cruelty of narcissistic hatred as his remains are left exposed to the old.

Sauvie Island and the surrounding waters continue to remain thef ocus for searchers as both cell phone pings and a local witness placed Terri Horman there June 4th, in the time between schoolband noon.

One witness saw Terri Horman and said:

"I think the thing that seems odd about it perhaps is that we were just passing each other by and in a few seconds, with her daughter being sick in her arms, made a point to show me the picture."

The picture was vital to Horman's planning and attempt to build an alibi.

The press may begin focusing more on the now public rift between ex spouses.

As the weeks have turned into months, the anger within Desiree has burned even hotter. She is left bereft of her son, and has only time in which, likely unable to gain quality sleep, is spent in going over every detail of Kyron's life; in particular, everything that he said about his step mother. Each complaint, each sad look upon his face, each time she may have dismissed him saying, "just be a good boy for her..." has got to come back and haunt Desiree.

<snipped>

[no rose colored glasses]

Koko's Cat and Terri  and hope you are having a good Thanksgiving.  Thanks IM for that article, I like reading what he has to say.

[islandmonkey]

IM     Alcoholism and drug addiction are both very hard to overcome, to all that have been able too, you are very brave and determined people. I really believe there are just some people no matter what help they get just can't overcome it. I do hope your brother is able to, and totally understand why you wouldn't want your children driving with him. Hope you and your family are having a wonderful Thanksgiving.

Thanks NRCG  ITA it is so difficult to overcome and that's why I have such admiration for TBM, sadly I do NOT think my brother will overcome it, he was enabled by friends and even my dad for way too long and it breaks my heart to see someone who is so smart and had so much going for him with nothing to call his own at 41 yrs old, a nomad in reality going from place to place (where anyone will still have him    ) no home, a car that is 15 yrs old and barely functional, not a dime to his name, no wife, children etc., and then to see the pain in my father's eyes knowing he will probably never make it. In fact he was last living in my parents home in TN while they are here and a "friend" brought him a 5th of Jack, he drank it all and started calling here and sounded suicidal so my 74 yr old dad had to jump in his car and drive 10 hours to check on him, buy groceries for him, but thankfully he gave him no money (now if we could get his friends to stop giving him alcohol)......and dad knows one day he'll be gone and who is going to do this?? I am only very determined because my kids are my #1 priority and always have been, always will. I know there are many unknown evils in our world that I can only do my best to warn them of, but Idamn sure can protect them from the known evil and I will until the day I die and I'm sure you and everyone on SM would do the same, we have seen too many cases and know about the known/unknown evils so I think this makes us all more vigilant. We are having a wonderful Thanksgiving, just came in from the beach and ppl are swimming it's so hot I pray you and your family are also having a wonderful Thanksgiving and since we share members of our family that are serving our country I want to say I wish all out armed service members here and abroad a very happy Thanksgiving and thank them for their service, they are true heros

[Puzzler]

as it stands i don't even know if TH really had a drinking problem or not.  Just 'cause KH said she did in divorce docs. does not make it so.  i know that at one time she had a dwi, and that was in 2005.  that is all i know (on record) of her drinking problem.

True, so what do we really know? A DUI in 2005 that is the only thing verified that I'm aware of.

Excellent point, divorces under almost every circumstance nasty and a he said/she said    and I have seen a huge percentage of divorce proceeding and filings that are simply an attempt at character assasination (mine was too, problem was my ex couldn't prove ANYTHING he had filed and was destroyed on the stand and I could thru numerous witnesses )

I keep wondering (and I've asked the question, too) that if Kaine were asked in court to "prove" all those assertions he made about Terrin in his sworn affidavit he filed with the court - how would he go about "proving" that Terri was a passed-out drunk several nights a week.