Kyron Horman, 7 years old, PORTLAND, OR #36 11/21/10 - 12/05/10

[Rob]

Keep it simple, is my moto. So simple, that no one can believe that one person can do this. Yes one person can plan and plot. JMO

trying to follow you here. Are you saying that it's so simple that Terri planned and plotted so successfully that she has fooled everyone?

she left no electronic records - i.e.; no computer records, no text records, no cell records, and no forensic evidence that would incriminate her?


That doesn't sound simple to me, but rather stunningly complex and hence - no arrest.

How can it be both - simple yet planned to perfection?

 - just trying to follow along here.

IF and if it was so simple. so simple. get my point, LE would have had a conviction..Simplicity has muddie up the waters: all the lies. so simplicity is now complex

don't really follow you, but that's ok.

I would like to know which lies you refer.

[Goatwhisperer]

The truth, can be lies, the lies can be the truth with matter, We are all reading lies, at which we believe are true, but not nescesarily.  One person alone is responsible for KY's faith. I give my luv to Dy and KH for their belief that KH is alive some where.

[sebastian]

The truth, can be lies, the lies can be the truth with matter, We are all reading lies, at which we believe are true, but not nescesarily.  One person alone is responsible for KY's faith. I give my luv to Dy and KH for their belief that KH is alive some where.

I hope Kyron is alive somewhere. It would be the only thing that would shed a little light for me anyways. My biggest problem with Terri is that she would not do everything possible to help LE find Kyron. I also don't think Terri is some sort of genius, far from it. Maybe she convinced someone that Kyron had some issues and needed to be hidden away. That sort of thing may find her an emotional accomplice. There are posts over at some mindhunter forum that are alluding to some sort of problem. But, as with everything else in this case, I take it with a grain of salt. I have also seen cases where LE has had tunnel vision which allowed perps to commit more crimes. Most of the time LE gets it right, but there have also been cases where they did not.

[islandmonkey]

Keep it simple, is my moto. So simple, that no one can believe that one person can do this. Yes one person can plan and plot. JMO

trying to follow you here. Are you saying that it's so simple that Terri planned and plotted so successfully that she has fooled everyone?

she left no electronic records - i.e.; no computer records, no text records, no cell records, and no forensic evidence that would incriminate her?


That doesn't sound simple to me, but rather stunningly complex and hence - no arrest.

How can it be both - simple yet planned to perfection?

 - just trying to follow along here.

IF and if it was so simple. so simple. get my point, LE would have had a conviction..Simplicity has muddie up the waters: all the lies. so simplicity is now complex

don't really follow you, but that's ok.

I would like to know which lies you refer.

...so, it's not really simple it's complex but before when it was simple and before "the lies" made the simplicity complex LE still couldn't find enough direct/forensic evidence to make an arrest?

I do believe one person can always plan a crime, the timeline is the issue I have with only one person involved....I have always said 2 people can keep a secret if one is dead, but again I feel there is someone else involved so maybe they are waiting for some slip to make an arrest.

[Goatwhisperer]

Sebastian, Believe and believe that LE is doing a good job, and we will see the truth!

[islandmonkey]

The truth, can be lies, the lies can be the truth with matter, We are all reading lies, at which we believe are true, but not nescesarily.  One person alone is responsible for KY's faith. I give my luv to Dy and KH for their belief that KH is alive some where.

I hope Kyron is alive somewhere. It would be the only thing that would shed a little light for me anyways. My biggest problem with Terri is that she would not do everything possible to help LE find Kyron. I also don't think Terri is some sort of genius, far from it. Maybe she convinced someone that Kyron had some issues and needed to be hidden away. That sort of thing may find her an emotional accomplice. There are posts over at some mindhunter forum that are alluding to some sort of problem. But, as with everything else in this case, I take it with a grain of salt. I have also seen cases where LE has had tunnel vision which allowed perps to commit more crimes. Most of the time LE gets it right, but there have also been cases where they did not.

Again, ITA they do get it right most of the time, but Michelle Dorr case was one they got wrong and the last person to see the child was her father, he was badgered so much he actually confessed and it turned out Haddon Clark killed her, and that was discovered after he killed Laura Hoeteling (sp?) Jaqueline Dowaliby in Illinois is another, he served time in prison before some appeals atty was able to prove he didn't do it........but agree most often last person to see the victim alive is usually a POI for obvious reasons and family members too. I do pray LE has it right, however I know for a fact there have been times they worked so hard to make the evidence fit the theory vs letting the evidence speak for itself, and I also know there are crooked ppl in every occupation, sad but it is a fact

[Tracygirl]

Hi Rob I missed you, nice to see you posting. I have been very bothered by some of the details of this case, these issues you stated in your post, thank you for putting my thoughts into words for me.

I still think it is possible this was a stranger abduction or at least a pedo who took him, of course I am saying this because we don't really know anything so anything is possible. Plus I agree, that is the simplest answer and one we have seen over and over again. It happened in Oregon about 25-30 years prior...I have always felt somebody either took him out in something or asked him to help take something to a car. Maybe this is what Desiree meant when she said, he saw it all and was a part of it, or words to that effect. Who ever it was is the last person to see Kyron, was it Terri? Was it somebody else? That question is yet to be answered. 

I just don't see why this would have been Terri's plan. Out of all of the plans she comes up with this one? If she did do this, she took one hell of a risk but executed it so well that 6 months later we are still asking the same questions. It doesn't make sense to me.

As for Kaines truck, it was the science fair, perhaps a person wanting to set Kaine up, assumed he would be there that day to see his child project.

[sebastian]

Sebastian, Believe and believe that LE is doing a good job, and we will see the truth!

I hope that you are right Goatwhisperer. I want to see Kyron found so bad, alive and well!

[Tracygirl]

You have your opinons... glad you do, but I don't have opinions.  I trust LE with my heart that they know who did this, and will proceed to a conviction.  They - LE, have all the evidence that has not been released, god bless them: They are working 24/7 on this case.

That's terrific. But if they had one scintilla of evidence someone would have been arrested by now. If it makes you feel better that they are keeping all this death row type evidence under lock and key - well, that's your prerogative.

lastly; if they had evidence - this case wouldn't be on a fact finding mission in front of a grand jury.

  Rob, great point......I know you can prosecute successfully without a body so I am holding out hope (but its waning) that they have enough to put whomever is involved in any way in prison for life, and I really thought after the media blitz starting with the Dateline epsiode about 2 weeks ago they were much closer, but now I am not so sure. Granted, is I use KISS (keep it simple stupid), Terri did it, and I think she's definitely involved but it seems if she had done this there would be more direct evidence, and it's starting to remind me of the HaLeigh Cumming's case and the fact that is still unsolved and HaLeigh has never been found make me worry about this case too.

to plan an abduction from a school where a child is presumably killed would take months and months of planning. You would also have to take into account things that would occur and there would be no plan for how to deal with those items. Things that would arise - such as; an unexpected sighting, bumping into someone who knew you, getting caught in the act, just to name a few. I do admit - it's hard to understand how she went to run all these errands AFTER abducting Kyron and THEN goes to Sauvie and does whatever it is that's being alleged. Wouldn't she just go to Sauvie from the school?

If you are planning to abduct a child, and this has been said many times - there are better places than a school. Not only that - but Terri didn't even need to take him to school to do something dastardly to him. If she did this, and maybe she did - she would have to spend just about every waking second planning, planning and more planning, which of course would cutting into her drinking, falling down drunk and sleeping on the couch bombed out of her gourd. I guess she is an over-achiever. Add in all her chores, like gutter cleaning, house work, watching all of the kids, tending to a baby, yard work - I wonder when all this planning took place? Plus she was able to used her wily ways to hoodwink a possible accomplice into this mess. She should have just written crime novels.

With KISS - it's easier to acknowledge that a possible abductor got into the school and went unnoticed and it was a crime of opportunity. Or the abductor is in the school and no need to sneak in or out.

Why would she not have an aliby for the time it is being assumed she took Kyron to Sauvie? She says during that time she drove the baby around. I would think after all of the planning she would come up with the best story for this time frame. She left herself open....Another reason I sit on the fence.

[monchichi]

I still think TH sent James away either because:

1. She may not have wanted him to be a witness/or it was easier to plan without him around

or

2. She was afraid of someone and didn't want him around for his own safety

MOO.

I don't buy that it had anything to do with how he was doing in school or his relationship with either Kaine or Terri.  Again, MOO.

[sebastian]

The truth, can be lies, the lies can be the truth with matter, We are all reading lies, at which we believe are true, but not nescesarily.  One person alone is responsible for KY's faith. I give my luv to Dy and KH for their belief that KH is alive some where.

I hope Kyron is alive somewhere. It would be the only thing that would shed a little light for me anyways. My biggest problem with Terri is that she would not do everything possible to help LE find Kyron. I also don't think Terri is some sort of genius, far from it. Maybe she convinced someone that Kyron had some issues and needed to be hidden away. That sort of thing may find her an emotional accomplice. There are posts over at some mindhunter forum that are alluding to some sort of problem. But, as with everything else in this case, I take it with a grain of salt. I have also seen cases where LE has had tunnel vision which allowed perps to commit more crimes. Most of the time LE gets it right, but there have also been cases where they did not.

I hear you Islandmonkey! I too have seen many cases where LE have gotten it wrong. LE is over worked and under paid. There is so much politics that they have to deal with and of course the rights of the offenders. It is sickening! It is amazing they are able to do their jobs when their hands are tied up so much with bleeding hearts that feel sorry for the perps.

Again, ITA they do get it right most of the time, but Michelle Dorr case was one they got wrong and the last person to see the child was her father, he was badgered so much he actually confessed and it turned out Haddon Clark killed her, and that was discovered after he killed Laura Hoeteling (sp?) Jaqueline Dowaliby in Illinois is another, he served time in prison before some appeals atty was able to prove he didn't do it........but agree most often last person to see the victim alive is usually a POI for obvious reasons and family members too. I do pray LE has it right, however I know for a fact there have been times they worked so hard to make the evidence fit the theory vs letting the evidence speak for itself, and I also know there are crooked ppl in every occupation, sad but it is a fact

[Tracygirl]

I still think TH sent James away either because:

1. She may not have wanted him to be a witness/or it was easier to plan without him around

or

2. She was afraid of someone and didn't want him around for his own safety

MOO.

I don't buy that it had anything to do with how he was doing in school or his relationship with either Kaine or Terri.  Again, MOO.

What ever the reason was, it was a good decision because Jame apparently is doing better. So Terri made a good decision to send James away. So did she just get lucky? Who knows, but for James it seems to have worked out.

[monchichi]

You have your opinons... glad you do, but I don't have opinions.  I trust LE with my heart that they know who did this, and will proceed to a conviction.  They - LE, have all the evidence that has not been released, god bless them: They are working 24/7 on this case.

That's terrific. But if they had one scintilla of evidence someone would have been arrested by now. If it makes you feel better that they are keeping all this death row type evidence under lock and key - well, that's your prerogative.

lastly; if they had evidence - this case wouldn't be on a fact finding mission in front of a grand jury.

  Rob, great point......I know you can prosecute successfully without a body so I am holding out hope (but its waning) that they have enough to put whomever is involved in any way in prison for life, and I really thought after the media blitz starting with the Dateline epsiode about 2 weeks ago they were much closer, but now I am not so sure. Granted, is I use KISS (keep it simple stupid), Terri did it, and I think she's definitely involved but it seems if she had done this there would be more direct evidence, and it's starting to remind me of the HaLeigh Cumming's case and the fact that is still unsolved and HaLeigh has never been found make me worry about this case too.

to plan an abduction from a school where a child is presumably killed would take months and months of planning. You would also have to take into account things that would occur and there would be no plan for how to deal with those items. Things that would arise - such as; an unexpected sighting, bumping into someone who knew you, getting caught in the act, just to name a few. I do admit - it's hard to understand how she went to run all these errands AFTER abducting Kyron and THEN goes to Sauvie and does whatever it is that's being alleged. Wouldn't she just go to Sauvie from the school?

If you are planning to abduct a child, and this has been said many times - there are better places than a school. Not only that - but Terri didn't even need to take him to school to do something dastardly to him. If she did this, and maybe she did - she would have to spend just about every waking second planning, planning and more planning, which of course would cutting into her drinking, falling down drunk and sleeping on the couch bombed out of her gourd. I guess she is an over-achiever. Add in all her chores, like gutter cleaning, house work, watching all of the kids, tending to a baby, yard work - I wonder when all this planning took place? Plus she was able to used her wily ways to hoodwink a possible accomplice into this mess. She should have just written crime novels.

With KISS - it's easier to acknowledge that a possible abductor got into the school and went unnoticed and it was a crime of opportunity. Or the abductor is in the school and no need to sneak in or out.

Why would she not have an aliby for the time it is being assumed she took Kyron to Sauvie? She says during that time she drove the baby around. I would think after all of the planning she would come up with the best story for this time frame. She left herself open....Another reason I sit on the fence.

I think that if she did something with Kyron, she thought the receipt would cover her.  Maybe she didn't think they would care about the rest of the day because she had evidence that she'd gone to FM right after she "dropped him off".  She then had to come up with something to fill in that time frame.  MOO.

PS  I know this has been discussed before, but I still don't believe someone would drive around with a fussy baby, and then, when that baby did not go to sleep they would then take the fussy baby to the gym daycare for an hour.  Sorry, I think most people would just take the baby home and try to make her comfortable.

[Puzzler]

Actually, I was just making the point that one F-250 looks like another and especially from a distance. Tyler could have thought he saw Kaine's F-250 when in fact it was Stetson's.

Also, I don't know that Stetson is not involved - how could anyone? There has been no forensic evidence located in Kaine's F-250 - so, logic tells me that evidence is somewhere. Obviously the police have been unable to locate it also. So, absent evidence, of which there is none to my knowledge, everyone is suspicious. How could anyone possibly be excluded? Anyone who was at that school that morning is suspicious.

Stetson has one component - he WAS there. I don't know if he goes any higher than that.

You're right and I went back and checked and he was parked in the lot that day so I agree Tyler could have thought this was Kaine's truck. ITA about everyone being suspicious, but I included info about him also to show 2 white Ford pick ups and how someone could have thought one was the other, also IIRC a student thought they saw Kyron in the parking lot next to a white Ford p/u So, we have that student, Tanner P talking about seeing Kyron when he was going to lool at the cool electric one and now Tanner saying he saw Kyron in the gym.

Wouldn't GK Stenson's truck have a "trailer" on it...to haul his tractor/mower?

[hellokitty]

 

If we can go by the pictures, it did.  It would not look like Kaine's truck because of the attached trailer.

[monchichi]

You have your opinons... glad you do, but I don't have opinions.  I trust LE with my heart that they know who did this, and will proceed to a conviction.  They - LE, have all the evidence that has not been released, god bless them: They are working 24/7 on this case.

That's terrific. But if they had one scintilla of evidence someone would have been arrested by now. If it makes you feel better that they are keeping all this death row type evidence under lock and key - well, that's your prerogative.

lastly; if they had evidence - this case wouldn't be on a fact finding mission in front of a grand jury.

  Rob, great point......I know you can prosecute successfully without a body so I am holding out hope (but its waning) that they have enough to put whomever is involved in any way in prison for life, and I really thought after the media blitz starting with the Dateline epsiode about 2 weeks ago they were much closer, but now I am not so sure. Granted, is I use KISS (keep it simple stupid), Terri did it, and I think she's definitely involved but it seems if she had done this there would be more direct evidence, and it's starting to remind me of the HaLeigh Cumming's case and the fact that is still unsolved and HaLeigh has never been found make me worry about this case too.

to plan an abduction from a school where a child is presumably killed would take months and months of planning. You would also have to take into account things that would occur and there would be no plan for how to deal with those items. Things that would arise - such as; an unexpected sighting, bumping into someone who knew you, getting caught in the act, just to name a few. I do admit - it's hard to understand how she went to run all these errands AFTER abducting Kyron and THEN goes to Sauvie and does whatever it is that's being alleged. Wouldn't she just go to Sauvie from the school?

If you are planning to abduct a child, and this has been said many times - there are better places than a school. Not only that - but Terri didn't even need to take him to school to do something dastardly to him. If she did this, and maybe she did - she would have to spend just about every waking second planning, planning and more planning, which of course would cutting into her drinking, falling down drunk and sleeping on the couch bombed out of her gourd. I guess she is an over-achiever. Add in all her chores, like gutter cleaning, house work, watching all of the kids, tending to a baby, yard work - I wonder when all this planning took place? Plus she was able to used her wily ways to hoodwink a possible accomplice into this mess. She should have just written crime novels.

With KISS - it's easier to acknowledge that a possible abductor got into the school and went unnoticed and it was a crime of opportunity. Or the abductor is in the school and no need to sneak in or out.

Why would she not have an aliby for the time it is being assumed she took Kyron to Sauvie? She says during that time she drove the baby around. I would think after all of the planning she would come up with the best story for this time frame. She left herself open....Another reason I sit on the fence.

I think that if she did something with Kyron, she thought the receipt would cover her.  Maybe she didn't think they would care about the rest of the day because she had evidence that she'd gone to FM right after she "dropped him off".  She then had to come up with something to fill in that time frame.  MOO.

PS  I know this has been discussed before, but I still don't believe someone would drive around with a fussy baby, and then, when that baby did not go to sleep they would then take the fussy baby to the gym daycare for an hour.  Sorry, I think most people would just take the baby home and try to make her comfortable.

Also, if she was guilty, she couldn't come up with an iron-clad alibi because all she could have said would be she was with the baby.  She wouldn't be able to come up with a better alibi because she would need to have witnesses.  Her options would only be "I drove the baby around" or "I went home with the baby".  MOO.

[Tracygirl]

Sebastian Ambers case speaks to me so much. Her case is a classic (and tragic, RIP Chelsea) example of LE making the wrong assumptions. How many times did we have to hear from Ambers parents she was not a child to run away? Then to find out poor Dave, the step dad, the last known person to see Amber, was a strong suspect. They had it all worked out that he was guilty, he was not. For a year John Gardner walked free until he killed again.

[islandmonkey]

Actually, I was just making the point that one F-250 looks like another and especially from a distance. Tyler could have thought he saw Kaine's F-250 when in fact it was Stetson's.

Also, I don't know that Stetson is not involved - how could anyone? There has been no forensic evidence located in Kaine's F-250 - so, logic tells me that evidence is somewhere. Obviously the police have been unable to locate it also. So, absent evidence, of which there is none to my knowledge, everyone is suspicious. How could anyone possibly be excluded? Anyone who was at that school that morning is suspicious.

Stetson has one component - he WAS there. I don't know if he goes any higher than that.

You're right and I went back and checked and he was parked in the lot that day so I agree Tyler could have thought this was Kaine's truck. ITA about everyone being suspicious, but I included info about him also to show 2 white Ford pick ups and how someone could have thought one was the other, also IIRC a student thought they saw Kyron in the parking lot next to a white Ford p/u So, we have that student, Tanner P talking about seeing Kyron when he was going to lool at the cool electric one and now Tanner saying he saw Kyron in the gym.

Wouldn't GK Stenson's truck have a "trailer" on it...to haul his tractor/mower?

I would definitely think so, but it someone was viewing it directly from the front I'm not sure they'd see that.

[Tracygirl]

You have your opinons... glad you do, but I don't have opinions.  I trust LE with my heart that they know who did this, and will proceed to a conviction.  They - LE, have all the evidence that has not been released, god bless them: They are working 24/7 on this case.

That's terrific. But if they had one scintilla of evidence someone would have been arrested by now. If it makes you feel better that they are keeping all this death row type evidence under lock and key - well, that's your prerogative.

lastly; if they had evidence - this case wouldn't be on a fact finding mission in front of a grand jury.

  Rob, great point......I know you can prosecute successfully without a body so I am holding out hope (but its waning) that they have enough to put whomever is involved in any way in prison for life, and I really thought after the media blitz starting with the Dateline epsiode about 2 weeks ago they were much closer, but now I am not so sure. Granted, is I use KISS (keep it simple stupid), Terri did it, and I think she's definitely involved but it seems if she had done this there would be more direct evidence, and it's starting to remind me of the HaLeigh Cumming's case and the fact that is still unsolved and HaLeigh has never been found make me worry about this case too.

to plan an abduction from a school where a child is presumably killed would take months and months of planning. You would also have to take into account things that would occur and there would be no plan for how to deal with those items. Things that would arise - such as; an unexpected sighting, bumping into someone who knew you, getting caught in the act, just to name a few. I do admit - it's hard to understand how she went to run all these errands AFTER abducting Kyron and THEN goes to Sauvie and does whatever it is that's being alleged. Wouldn't she just go to Sauvie from the school?

If you are planning to abduct a child, and this has been said many times - there are better places than a school. Not only that - but Terri didn't even need to take him to school to do something dastardly to him. If she did this, and maybe she did - she would have to spend just about every waking second planning, planning and more planning, which of course would cutting into her drinking, falling down drunk and sleeping on the couch bombed out of her gourd. I guess she is an over-achiever. Add in all her chores, like gutter cleaning, house work, watching all of the kids, tending to a baby, yard work - I wonder when all this planning took place? Plus she was able to used her wily ways to hoodwink a possible accomplice into this mess. She should have just written crime novels.

With KISS - it's easier to acknowledge that a possible abductor got into the school and went unnoticed and it was a crime of opportunity. Or the abductor is in the school and no need to sneak in or out.

Why would she not have an aliby for the time it is being assumed she took Kyron to Sauvie? She says during that time she drove the baby around. I would think after all of the planning she would come up with the best story for this time frame. She left herself open....Another reason I sit on the fence.

I think that if she did something with Kyron, she thought the receipt would cover her.  Maybe she didn't think they would care about the rest of the day because she had evidence that she'd gone to FM right after she "dropped him off".  She then had to come up with something to fill in that time frame.  MOO.

PS  I know this has been discussed before, but I still don't believe someone would drive around with a fussy baby, and then, when that baby did not go to sleep they would then take the fussy baby to the gym daycare for an hour.  Sorry, I think most people would just take the baby home and try to make her comfortable.

Also, if she was guilty, she couldn't come up with an iron-clad alibi because all she could have said would be she was with the baby.  She wouldn't be able to come up with a better alibi because she would need to have witnesses.  Her options would only be "I drove the baby around" or "I went home with the baby".  MOO.

First off, people drive fussy babies around everyday and do not kill a child. Perhaps Kiara calmed down enough to take her to the gym. I don't see that as being hinky, I just don't.
 Now as for the aliby. She sets herself up with her aliby by not having an alibi. She was miles away from Sauvie why did she go back there to only dump Kyron when there are miles and miles of wooded area she could have taken him to? but she choose to take Kyron to an area where people are at? To me it doesn't look like that remote of an area. I think it is easier for me to consider she didn't drop Kyron off at Sauvie and she dumped him in the area between the store and the school. Then she drives Kiara around to not calm the baby but to calm herself. That I can see happening, although I am not putting money down on the plan as we know it. To me it doesn't make sense and is too risky.

[Tracygirl]

Actually, I was just making the point that one F-250 looks like another and especially from a distance. Tyler could have thought he saw Kaine's F-250 when in fact it was Stetson's.

Also, I don't know that Stetson is not involved - how could anyone? There has been no forensic evidence located in Kaine's F-250 - so, logic tells me that evidence is somewhere. Obviously the police have been unable to locate it also. So, absent evidence, of which there is none to my knowledge, everyone is suspicious. How could anyone possibly be excluded? Anyone who was at that school that morning is suspicious.

Stetson has one component - he WAS there. I don't know if he goes any higher than that.

You're right and I went back and checked and he was parked in the lot that day so I agree Tyler could have thought this was Kaine's truck. ITA about everyone being suspicious, but I included info about him also to show 2 white Ford pick ups and how someone could have thought one was the other, also IIRC a student thought they saw Kyron in the parking lot next to a white Ford p/u So, we have that student, Tanner P talking about seeing Kyron when he was going to lool at the cool electric one and now Tanner saying he saw Kyron in the gym.

Wouldn't GK Stenson's truck have a "trailer" on it...to haul his tractor/mower?

I would assume it did that day as it did the day the news took video of him. I am not sure it is the same truck the one student reported seeing. You know white is the #1 color for a ford truck? There are thousands of them and I am sure more then just a few are in the portland area.