Zahra Clare Baker #9 11/27/10 - 1/5/11

[starwynn]

I am just so totally sick over this.  How could that idiot NOT know what happened when there was tissue on the walls???  He is just as guilty as any of them.  I hope they have the gloves that was used and they can get prints from the inside of them.  I bet I know whose prints that will be....

Just a reminder, as I was having a freaking fit over the same thing and my boyfriend reminded me of something.... really really very sick and upset.  And because of the horror of it all, I had forgotten a few things:

We shed a lot of tissue.  So it's not inconceivable to do scrapings FOR tissue on walls.  It doesn't mean "we found 33 tissue samples visable to the naked eye" (because that's the first thing I thought, honestly) or even samples that were indicated by chemical or mechanical indications, but simply samples. 

Now, that being said, it does sound like in some areas they found tissue (which again can include bone), hair, blood.  I would not be surprised if they took actual tissue samples from the tiles along the commode wall of the bathroom, and from the backs of the latex paint there as they removed paint to get to those tiles.

But if they were smart, they would take samples from the WHOLE bathroom wall which could include usual tissues from bathing, etc.

[mizjay]

OMG--I just noticed.  That guy has the bridge of his nose pierced!!!!

How did you miss that?  Looks pretty painful to have that done to me but what would I know... the only thing I ever had pierced was my ear lobes.  I am afraid Zahra was thrown into a world of drugs and horror when she was removed from her grandmother in Australia.  It breaks my heart.

LOL ~ I'm so blind I thought it was glasses with no rims, OMG that is....I can't even come up with a word but the only thing that comes to mind is FUGLY. Ugh, and these are the people that idiot decided to make Zahra's new "family"

[starwynn]

Good morning, 

I am going to post my thoughts but know I feel bad about even bringing this up.

I KNOW I heard that there is a difference in blood splatter when someone is living versus when they are dead.  I think I heard it from one of the "experts" NG had on her show awhile back on this or some other case.

Seems once a person dies the blood does not splatter during dismemberment. There is much less to clean up. Though I am sure there would be evidence on the walls and ceiling in the bathroom, there would be no evidence in any other room if Zahra was not killed violently.  So, for me, I would wonder from which roooms the wall and floor boards were removed;  Only the bathroom?

I would like to say I spent many years living in a rural area where people "run over the hill".  Given the financial situation of the Bakers, regardless of where they go, it will likely be a place where people will not accept them.

Terri

I got into a discussion with my husband over with, when you die you still have the same amount of blood, so why wouldn't it splatter the same? I can't even believe I'm asking this 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but...

My understanding is that blood splatter can actually occur after death - but it would be splatter from the objects being used on the body.  What you will NOT get would be splatter from ejection of the blood from the body, from blood pressure.  'Trying to stay detached here so I can even type this (deep breath).  For example, say if someone cut a major artery with someone smooth after a person was dead, the blood won't spray on its own because there's no blood pressure there to push it out.  It will drip downwards - it won't propel outwards. But if someone lifted the smooth instrument quickly up, it's possible that blood can splatter from that instrument onto surfaces surrounding the victim.

If they find downward drips in the bedroom, it could show that she was already dead.  (another deep breath) ...I'm thinking about the cut out section of floor here, which could mean either cutting or I've thought perhaps hemorrhage if she were raped before being brought home.  Blood on the wall would indicate something completely different, and there was a section of wall taken from her room.

If something like a power tool was used, and the person was dead, there still can be splatter - but not the type that would indicate arterial flow.  For example, the bathtub area...  That's why they use splatter experts because the experts can tell the difference between a sling of blood from an instrument, or a splatter from a power tool, or a drip from the body, or a spray from arterial blood pressure from a living body.

It's hard to think about this stuff.  I apologize for typing it out, though I feel it is important.  In my own heart, and head, I separate this from Zahra who I truly believe is way past this.  But I want answers to questions that really bother me, so I think about this stuff... what will they find, and can they use it to absolutely prosecute the ba$+ards who did this to Zahra.

[starwynn]

JMHO but I'm now thinking EvilE was into meth and prolly pain/downers.  Being as evil and dark as she was and then add meth which can make you BELIEVE anything and see things that aren't even there add to that it makes you hypersexual there is no telling what had been done to that poor child.  A WHOLE family and circle of friends let this little girl down.  You know why they didn't follow through with helping her????  They didn't want to run risk of losing their connect or LE looking at them closer.  Addicts don't want LE around at all even at the expense of a child!  I'm basing my thinking she was on meth due to the way I've seen her (in small video clips) answer people (tweaking), how much weight she lost and quick, and cause it is said all around her were on it.  Didn't someone say AY was a cook? MOO

Hypersexuality and self-medicating are also related to untreated bipolar disorder, which EB is said to have, and I would believe it reading her little delusions in her letters.  There was mention of EB taking some painpills (prescription) from AY; pain pill bottles were taken from the house.  If any of them were codeine/hydrocodone, there is such a thing as "codeine-mean".  I've seen that in person, and it IS evil.  Untreated bipolar disorder also can have some really awful aggression moments, which I have also seen in person from someone who (if treated) would never harm even a fly.  Add drugs and mental disorders, and it all makes sense.  Add a "husband" to that who shuts down emotionally, disassociates, and will bow to the will of an overbearing woman, and I see AB and EB.   

[starwynn]

OK, I'm caught up now.  Darn, you monkeys are BUSY monkeys today!  LOL  Sorry for the deluge of posts. I'm kind of embarrassed that my posts are all the last ones.  (blush!)

 

[Nana29]

OK, I'm caught up now.  Darn, you monkeys are BUSY monkeys today!  LOL  Sorry for the deluge of posts. I'm kind of embarrassed that my posts are all the last ones.  (blush!)

 

BBM        Not anymore.
To put in my two cents, I agree with your posts,. I said earlier about the difference in "spatter" being live vs dead, you said what I could not.

[theboyzmom]

Finally caught up with you guys - here is my understanding of the blood difference between live and dead. After death, almost immediately, blood starts to break down. It does not clot any longer and the red cells start to explode. Therefore, the splatter from a dead body would have a different consistency and dispersion pattern. The same tool would, therefore, make a different look to a blood spatter expert because of those changes.

[melisb]

JMHO but I'm now thinking EvilE was into meth and prolly pain/downers.  Being as evil and dark as she was and then add meth which can make you BELIEVE anything and see things that aren't even there add to that it makes you hypersexual there is no telling what had been done to that poor child.  A WHOLE family and circle of friends let this little girl down.  You know why they didn't follow through with helping her????  They didn't want to run risk of losing their connect or LE looking at them closer.  Addicts don't want LE around at all even at the expense of a child!  I'm basing my thinking she was on meth due to the way I've seen her (in small video clips) answer people (tweaking), how much weight she lost and quick, and cause it is said all around her were on it.  Didn't someone say AY was a cook? MOO

Correct you are on all points Starw.  Meth is said to be the absolute worst drug a bipolar person can be on.  I've seen what it can do to the ordinary person.  Imagine what is does to a bipolar nut like EvilE who considers herself a "dark fairy" anyhow.  I just have this horrible image in my head of her being so happy while unspeakable things are being done to Zahra's little body all the while hailing Satan.  I DO NOT know if she ever worshipped Satan this was just an awful thought I had in my head.  I can see the stupid beeyatch dancing with glee.  I hope she doesn't live a full day in gen pop!

Hypersexuality and self-medicating are also related to untreated bipolar disorder, which EB is said to have, and I would believe it reading her little delusions in her letters.  There was mention of EB taking some painpills (prescription) from AY; pain pill bottles were taken from the house.  If any of them were codeine/hydrocodone, there is such a thing as "codeine-mean".  I've seen that in person, and it IS evil.  Untreated bipolar disorder also can have some really awful aggression moments, which I have also seen in person from someone who (if treated) would never harm even a fly.  Add drugs and mental disorders, and it all makes sense.  Add a "husband" to that who shuts down emotionally, disassociates, and will bow to the will of an overbearing woman, and I see AB and EB.   

[melisb]

Sakes alive Star!!!!  I put myself right in the middle of your box!  I'm so sorry so I call PARTY IN THE BOX!!!!!


                           

[no rose colored glasses]

OK, I'm caught up now.  Darn, you monkeys are BUSY monkeys today!  LOL  Sorry for the deluge of posts. I'm kind of embarrassed that my posts are all the last ones.  (blush!)

 

BBM        Not anymore.
To put in my two cents, I agree with your posts,. I said earlier about the difference in "spatter" being live vs dead, you said what I could not.

I enjoyed your posts and learned from them 

[mymonkey]

In a jailhouse letter obtained by ABC News last month, Elisa Baker wrote, "We really didn't kill her, but what he [Adam Baker] did after the fact is kinda horrifying."

This just keeps going around in my mind.

Kinda?

These people are beyond sick. They are pure evil.

Brandi...I can not believe you said that...The word "KINDA" stuck on me from the beginning.

[4 Donks]

In a jailhouse letter obtained by ABC News last month, Elisa Baker wrote, "We really didn't kill her, but what he [Adam Baker] did after the fact is kinda horrifying."

This just keeps going around in my mind.

Kinda?

These people are beyond sick. They are pure evil.

Brandi...I can not believe you said that...The word "KINDA" stuck on me from the beginning.

Makes you wonder what she would find really horrifying.

[Kat_Gram]

I read that in the search warrant, there was a mention of DFS issues and calls going back to 1999 on EB Goth Monster. Did anyone else pick up on that ? I didn't pick that one out, but read it on WS.
She married Aaron in 1998. He would have been 20 or 21, his DOB is Dec of 1977. So, she was always like this, it didn't happen recently or when she came back from AU. Usually when DFS knocks, there is a reason. And then, they EB and AY were still together for several more years.
I hope that her daughters can overcome what they went thru and not be like her with their kids. I see her two girls as victims. At least one of them testified at the bond hearing, that must have taken alot of courage.   

[Brandi]

I read that in the search warrant, there was a mention of DFS issues and calls going back to 1999 on EB Goth Monster. Did anyone else pick up on that ? I didn't pick that one out, but read it on WS.
She married Aaron in 1998. He would have been 20 or 21, his DOB is Dec of 1977. So, she was always like this, it didn't happen recently or when she came back from AU. Usually when DFS knocks, there is a reason. And then, they EB and AY were still together for several more years.
I hope that her daughters can overcome what they went thru and not be like her with their kids. I see her two girls as victims. At least one of them testified at the bond hearing, that must have taken alot of courage.   

From what I have heard about her, she has always been a user and abuser. Her dad kicked her out of his home, supposedly because she was making one of her daughters use a wheelchair to con the system into giving her benefits she did not deserve.

Yes, Amber showed a lot of courage testifying against her mother, I agree.

[Curly]

OMG--I just noticed.  That guy has the bridge of his nose pierced!!!!

How did you miss that?  Looks pretty painful to have that done to me but what would I know... the only thing I ever had pierced was my ear lobes.  I am afraid Zahra was thrown into a world of drugs and horror when she was removed from her grandmother in Australia.  It breaks my heart.

LOL ~ I'm so blind I thought it was glasses with no rims, OMG that is....I can't even come up with a word but the only thing that comes to mind is FUGLY. Ugh, and these are the people that idiot decided to make Zahra's new "family"

That's exactly what I saw! Never gave it a second glance.

[mizjay]

OMG--I just noticed.  That guy has the bridge of his nose pierced!!!!

How did you miss that?  Looks pretty painful to have that done to me but what would I know... the only thing I ever had pierced was my ear lobes.  I am afraid Zahra was thrown into a world of drugs and horror when she was removed from her grandmother in Australia.  It breaks my heart.

LOL ~ I'm so blind I thought it was glasses with no rims, OMG that is....I can't even come up with a word but the only thing that comes to mind is FUGLY. Ugh, and these are the people that idiot decided to make Zahra's new "family"

That's exactly what I saw! Never gave it a second glance.

Curly!  thank you for saying that! Really it just wasn't on my radar for somebody to be pierced there...eww, no telling what else is. Now that I'm talking about him again, it's mind blowing how he's become the darling at WS. I know ppl are polite and all but he seems weird, all up in the mix of this and just loving it all a bit too much imo. Guess if you're "disabled" you can devote a lot of time to the web, FB and God knows where else.

[Curly]

I just went over to WS, Miz and they closed the thread for now, and it doesn't look like rockin' Aaron's been back since yesterday.
 You're  not alone. It never occurred to me that a person would have a piercing through the bone of their nose. It goes well with his lovely hairdo.

[Brandi]

Crowds small but steady at Zahra’s visitation

HICKORY,NC  (WBTV) – At the drum Funeral Home in Hickory Thursday night there were no huge crowds, but the chapel inside was never empty as a visitation was held  for ten year old Zahra Baker, the little girl who was the focus a massive searches in November until her dismembered  body was found.

Inside the Chapel, a video montage of photographs of Zahra was shown.  There were flowers on a table as well as small toys and other items that well wishers brought.

Debbie Holeman cried as she watched the pictures in the video. "Zahra is like the daughter I never had," she said.  "I want answers as to what happened and until I get them I don't know if I can ever get closure on this."

Holeman lives in the Dudley Road area of Caldwell County where some of Zahra's remains were found last month.

Alice Tuttle came to the visitation to pay her respects and spread the word about a new law she is hoping North Carolina lawmakers will consider. "I call it Zahra's law for abused children," she said.

Tuttle wants a hotline set up so children who are afraid to go home because of abuse can talk to someone and find safe haven "Until police can thoroughly check things out and make sure it is safe for the child to go home."

Tuttle already has more than 700 signatures on a petition and hopes to have more than 1000 before going to Raleigh to plead her case.

The Baker family did not attend the visitation. Zahra's father, Adam Baker, has received threats and police advised the family to hold their memorial to Zahra in private. No date has been set for that yet.

No charges have been filed in the death or the dismemberment of Zahra. Her stepmother, Elisa Baker is in jail on an obstruction of justice charge after admitting she wrote a ransom note to hinder the police investigation into the disappearance of Zahra in October.

According to search warrants unsealed this week it was Elisa Baker, through her attorneys, who told police where to find Zahra's remains and other evidence in the case.  Police say their investigation is not over.

The visitation will continue on Friday at Drum Funeral home in Hickory from 1pm to 4pm. The public is invited to come watch the video and sign the guestbook which will be sent to Zahra's biological mother in Australia.
http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13607529

[Brandi]

Attorney to stay on in Elisa Baker case
Appointments end for Dubs, Killian



Lisa Dubs, the attorney who was provisionally appointed to represent Elisa Baker, has had that appointment terminated, but Dubs said she will continue to represent Baker.

Both Dubs and Mark Killian, the provisional attorney for Adam Baker, had their appointments terminated by the state’s Office of the Capital Defender on Wednesday.

Dubs and Killian were appointed to represent the Bakers because the state thought the Bakers faced imminent murder charges for the death of Adam’s 10-year-old daughter, Zahra Baker, and that the state might be likely to pursue the death penalty.

Wednesday’s letter from the Office of the Capital Defender states that, “The termination of your appointment as provisional counsel for Ms. Baker only means that you will no longer by paid by the State for your services on behalf you Ms. Baker.”

Dubs would not say if she will represent Elisa free of charge. Dubs is well-known for defending high-profile murder suspects, and her website describes her specialties as “capital murder cases and serious felonies.”

Killian had been assigned to represent Adam Baker on several worthless check charges unrelated to Zahra’s disappearance before he was assigned to the case. Killian was not available for comment and did not return phone calls.

“This has been (District Attorney) Jay Gaither’s issue – it’s the one he’s raised with the media,” Dubs said. “As a practical matter, it doesn’t effect my or Mark Killian’s ability to represent Elisa Baker or Adam Baker.”

Gaither said the issue is whether the state had the right to appoint anyone in the case before anyone was charged with murder.

"The IDS (Office of Indigent Defense Services) Rule 2A.2(a) that grants authority to the office of the Capital Defender to grant provisional council is clear and unambiguous. The rule states that when the defendant is charged with murder, the right to council at taxpayers' expense is activated," Gaither said. "The assignment of Ms. Dubs and Mr. Killian that was filed in the office of the Catawba County Clerk of Court incorrectly stated that charges of murder had been taken out on Adam and Elisa Baker. The issue was not one of whether representation was warranted, but whether an assignment by the office of the Capital Defender was allowable as a matter of law."

The Office of the Capital Defender had provisionally assigned Dubs to represent the Elisa Baker because, “There is a significant probability that Baker will be arrested or indicted in the near future on the charge of first-degree murder or undesignated murder in the death of Zahra Baker,” according to court documents.
 
Killian’s appointment to the Baker case was similarly worded.

Local attorney Blair Cody has been practicing law for 10 years and said the appointment of provisional attorneys in capital cases is uncommon, but so is the Baker case.

“It may be unusual, but in my understanding of the rules, it’s not inappropriate,” he said. “I can’t think of another case where it’s been done, but I can’t think of another case quite like this one.”

Dubs said she has served as provisional counsel multiple times in previous cases since 2001, but was unable to say exactly how many times she has done so. She added that on most of those cases she never turned in a bill and was not paid for her services.

Dubs has been heavily involved in Baker’s case, but she said that in some cases she has been provisionally assigned to she did nothing more than hold a brief conversation with a suspect before another attorney was assigned to the case.

“Obviously, the pre-trial has been more complicated, but the trial itself may be no more complicated than a standard capital case,” she said. “The medial has complicated the case by focusing on details like whether or not I am representing Elisa.”

The letter terminating Dubs was written by Capital Defender Robert Hurley. It said, “On October 18, 2010, when I appointed you to be provisional counsel for Elisa Baker, it appeared that her arrest on a charge of first-degree murder, or undesignated murder was imminent. As of this date, however, she has not been arrested or indicted in connection with the death of her step-daughter, Zahra Baker.”

The letter goes on to state, “Since you were able to advise Ms. Baker regarding her constitutional rights … I believe that it is appropriate to terminate your appointment as provisional counsel at this time.” It also states that Baker “obviously needed the assistance of an attorney who could advise her during a critical time in the State’s ongoing investigation into the death of Zahra Baker.”

Killian’s letter was worded similarly.

The Office of the Capital Defender is a part of the Office of Indigent Services. According to the IDS 2007 report, capital murder cases are billed at a rate of $95 per hour. Cases require an average of 192 hours of work. When calculated with an assortment of additional fees, it costs the state an average of $19,249.05 to assign an attorney to a capital case.
http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/news/2010/dec/02/attorney-stay-elisa-baker-case-ar-586219/

[4 Donks]

Crowds small but steady at Zahra’s visitation

HICKORY,NC  (WBTV) – At the drum Funeral Home in Hickory Thursday night there were no huge crowds, but the chapel inside was never empty as a visitation was held  for ten year old Zahra Baker, the little girl who was the focus a massive searches in November until her dismembered  body was found.

Inside the Chapel, a video montage of photographs of Zahra was shown.  There were flowers on a table as well as small toys and other items that well wishers brought.

Debbie Holeman cried as she watched the pictures in the video. "Zahra is like the daughter I never had," she said.  "I want answers as to what happened and until I get them I don't know if I can ever get closure on this."

Holeman lives in the Dudley Road area of Caldwell County where some of Zahra's remains were found last month.

Alice Tuttle came to the visitation to pay her respects and spread the word about a new law she is hoping North Carolina lawmakers will consider. "I call it Zahra's law for abused children," she said.

Tuttle wants a hotline set up so children who are afraid to go home because of abuse can talk to someone and find safe haven "Until police can thoroughly check things out and make sure it is safe for the child to go home."

Tuttle already has more than 700 signatures on a petition and hopes to have more than 1000 before going to Raleigh to plead her case.

The Baker family did not attend the visitation. Zahra's father, Adam Baker, has received threats and police advised the family to hold their memorial to Zahra in private. No date has been set for that yet.

No charges have been filed in the death or the dismemberment of Zahra. Her stepmother, Elisa Baker is in jail on an obstruction of justice charge after admitting she wrote a ransom note to hinder the police investigation into the disappearance of Zahra in October.

According to search warrants unsealed this week it was Elisa Baker, through her attorneys, who told police where to find Zahra's remains and other evidence in the case.  Police say their investigation is not over.

The visitation will continue on Friday at Drum Funeral home in Hickory from 1pm to 4pm. The public is invited to come watch the video and sign the guestbook which will be sent to Zahra's biological mother in Australia.
http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13607529

I'm glad to see this.