Natalee Holloway Case Discussion #852 11/20/10 - 11/23/10

[Babybear]

I have followed this only superficially, and don't know all of the characters as most of you do--just Natalee and Joran, the Kalpoes and Joran's father.  Also, of course Stephany Flores.  I'm just intruding here to say that I agree with what Mark Klaas said on NG a few nights ago--"Beth Holloway fears nothing."  Very few people have the courage she has had and continues to this day to demand the truth.  I admire her a lot.  I think Natalee would be very proud.

[cecilita]

Good night Monkeys,
I have a question regarding the jaw found in Aruba. I know that it is a tooth attached to the jaw  but my questions is:....why the jay is detaches with the skull? with weather conditions and time, Will the tooth should fall out before the jaw detaches to the skull?

[texasmom]

Wasn't Peter Devries (2nd part) supposed to air today?

If you're out there EURobert or Jo-Ann could you let us know please.

I think they have both been shown (the ones with Beth), one on Oct 31 and the other on Nov 7.

He may have another show airing tonight, but not about this case that I'm aware of.

Not sure if this has been posted or not.

http://www.peterrdevries.nl/nieuws/gevonden-onderkaak-van-jonge-vrouw/

Google translation:



Friday, November 19, 2010, 11:32 hours

News

"Found mandible of young woman"



Natalee Holloway
The lower jaw last week on the beach in Aruba was found, would be an Aruban prosecutor indeed a young woman. U.S. media reported Friday that, based on research first. A surprising twist, but it's still too early to draw conclusions from them. We await the outcome of the DNA research, which will take several weeks. Only then can be said with certainty whether the remains belong to Natalee Holloway.

The jaw was found Friday by a few tourists on the beach near the Phoenix Hotel, not far from the Bubali Plas. The tourists took their find to the reception, a hotel employee when the police warned. The investigation into the origin of the jaw is carried out by the Dutch Forensic Institute.

Marking time
Peter: "As long as there is no official confirmation of the NFI or Justice, I remain reserved. Beth Holloway is still in a wait and see situation. We have seen too often claimed that there was something of Natalee Holloway found, but every time afterwards proved to be untrue. That was always very disappointing, so we're now marking time. "

Thanks texasmom - sorry about that.

This says the DNA will take several weeks.

What about the dental impressions?  Rob reckons they will be able to tell by that.

No problem at all, can!

I read that too, but I hope to goodness it doesn't take several weeks.   

[can]

The mandible should have been sent to Quantico. It would all be known by now and there wouldn't be people wondering one way or the other if an announcement ever occurs.

I think, in the back of my mind - that the NFI can't even figure out who it's from.

Thanks Rob.  If only!

[Rob]

Let's take a second -

How is odontology used to solve crimes? - bite marks. This explains how alignment is used to pin point specific tooth features.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKeEbVLZNWc

3-D presentation of tooth alignment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT3Kwy9P7lE&feature=related

Forensic Dentistry: World Trade Center to Ted Bundy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxF88-i-iNk&feature=related

[can]

I have followed this only superficially, and don't know all of the characters as most of you do--just Natalee and Joran, the Kalpoes and Joran's father.  Also, of course Stephany Flores.  I'm just intruding here to say that I agree with what Mark Klaas said on NG a few nights ago--"Beth Holloway fears nothing."  Very few people have the courage she has had and continues to this day to demand the truth.  I admire her a lot.  I think Natalee would be very proud.

Yes, Babybear I agree - Natalee would be very proud of her Mom.

The Monkeys are very proud of Beth too!

[can]

Good night Monkeys,
I have a question regarding the jaw found in Aruba. I know that it is a tooth attached to the jaw  but my questions is:....why the jay is detaches with the skull? with weather conditions and time, Will the tooth should fall out before the jaw detaches to the skull?

Good night cecilita.  Sorry, I can't answer your question.

[texasmom]

I have followed this only superficially, and don't know all of the characters as most of you do--just Natalee and Joran, the Kalpoes and Joran's father.  Also, of course Stephany Flores.  I'm just intruding here to say that I agree with what Mark Klaas said on NG a few nights ago--"Beth Holloway fears nothing."  Very few people have the courage she has had and continues to this day to demand the truth.  I admire her a lot.  I think Natalee would be very proud.

Yes, Babybear I agree - Natalee would be very proud of her Mom.

The Monkeys are very proud of Beth too!

Absolutely!   

[can]

Wasn't Peter Devries (2nd part) supposed to air today?

If you're out there EURobert or Jo-Ann could you let us know please.

I think they have both been shown (the ones with Beth), one on Oct 31 and the other on Nov 7.

He may have another show airing tonight, but not about this case that I'm aware of.

Not sure if this has been posted or not.

http://www.peterrdevries.nl/nieuws/gevonden-onderkaak-van-jonge-vrouw/

Google translation:



Friday, November 19, 2010, 11:32 hours

News

"Found mandible of young woman"



Natalee Holloway
The lower jaw last week on the beach in Aruba was found, would be an Aruban prosecutor indeed a young woman. U.S. media reported Friday that, based on research first. A surprising twist, but it's still too early to draw conclusions from them. We await the outcome of the DNA research, which will take several weeks. Only then can be said with certainty whether the remains belong to Natalee Holloway.

The jaw was found Friday by a few tourists on the beach near the Phoenix Hotel, not far from the Bubali Plas. The tourists took their find to the reception, a hotel employee when the police warned. The investigation into the origin of the jaw is carried out by the Dutch Forensic Institute.

Marking time
Peter: "As long as there is no official confirmation of the NFI or Justice, I remain reserved. Beth Holloway is still in a wait and see situation. We have seen too often claimed that there was something of Natalee Holloway found, but every time afterwards proved to be untrue. That was always very disappointing, so we're now marking time. "

Thanks texasmom - sorry about that.

This says the DNA will take several weeks.

What about the dental impressions?  Rob reckons they will be able to tell by that.

No problem at all, can!

I read that too, but I hope to goodness it doesn't take several weeks.   

 

Me too!  But, if it does take several weeks, I hope they keep Natalee's family informed.

[Rob]

In order to possible preform DNA testing on a single tooth - you first need to remove the tooth from the jaw bone. Then drill the center of the tooth to extract the DNA contained in the pulp of the remaining root.

There is usually a small portion remaining there - even after thousands of years. Teeth are enamel and lest for thousands of years.

However, with a single tooth - DNA replication may be need to CONFIRM a TEST. This is the process of using the nuclear DNA and copying the letter sequence to preform repeated tests to confirm the original results.

It does take some time to replicate the DNA. However, an initial test would confirm if they are on the right track. In a sense, if the initial tests did not reveal a match - that could occur due to cross contamination or simply because it is not a match. That's why repeated tests are completed. In order to do repeated test - you need something to accomplish this feat and you need more DNA - so replication is then used.

If you use the control sample - meaning the DNA directly from the tooth for the initial test - without replication - you risk not having anything to confirm in case of a positive match. So, again, replication is DONE first.

[Lisa in MD]

Let's take a second -

How is odontology used to solve crimes? - bite marks. This explains how alignment is used to pin point specific tooth features.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKeEbVLZNWc

3-D presentation of tooth alignment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT3Kwy9P7lE&feature=related

Forensic Dentistry: World Trade Center to Ted Bundy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxF88-i-iNk&feature=related

GEEZ LOUISE ROB - I think you could have flown to the Hague, Identified the mandible, Made the Announcement and returned home by now!  What is their problem???

[cookie]

I have followed this only superficially, and don't know all of the characters as most of you do--just Natalee and Joran, the Kalpoes and Joran's father.  Also, of course Stephany Flores.  I'm just intruding here to say that I agree with what Mark Klaas said on NG a few nights ago--"Beth Holloway fears nothing."  Very few people have the courage she has had and continues to this day to demand the truth.  I admire her a lot.  I think Natalee would be very proud.

Yes, Babybear I agree - Natalee would be very proud of her Mom.

The Monkeys are very proud of Beth too!

Absolutely!   

yeppers!

[Rob]

I should add - since Beth's DNA is on hand from the test on June 12th 2005, a mitochondrial DNA test would confirm it is Natalee rather quickly.

In the event there is no mitochondrial DNA comparison - replication is essential. This would be used to compare to a tooth brush or hair brush - or even clothing with Touch DNA comparison using skin cells.

Mitochondrial DNA is passed from every mother to every child.

So, once again, it is known through mitochondrial DNA, dental overlay using electronic records of the jaw bone, and any cast Dave sent to Holland. I am sure the results are known by now.

[crazybabyborg]

Good night Monkeys,
I have a question regarding the jaw found in Aruba. I know that it is a tooth attached to the jaw  but my questions is:....why the jay is detaches with the skull? with weather conditions and time, Will the tooth should fall out before the jaw detaches to the skull?

I heard Dr. Baden say that it's difficult for the jaw to become seperated so that the lower half is disjointed from the upper. It made me wonder if the separation was from an injury sustained at the time of death. Stephany's and Joran's encounter came to mind.

[crazybabyborg]

Rob? You understand the testing process far better than I do. Thank you for sharing the information with us. 

I'm trying to figure out why Dr. Baden was so adament that they knew by now if it was from Natalee or not. Any ideas? Thanks! 

[can]

I should add - since Beth's DNA is on hand from the test on June 12th 2005, a mitochondrial DNA test would confirm it is Natalee rather quickly.

In the event there is no mitochondrial DNA comparison - replication is essential. This would be used to compare to a tooth brush or hair brush - or even clothing with Touch DNA comparison using skin cells.

Mitochondrial DNA is passed from every mother to every child.

So, once again, it is known through mitochondrial DNA, dental overlay using electronic records of the jaw bone, and any cast Dave sent to Holland. I am sure the results are known by now.

Thanks Rob for your fine explanation.

Think you are saying that in Natalee's case, they already have the DNA replication, and it is only a matter of comparing that with the results of the DNA found in the tooth?

Isn't it amazing that DNA can remain in a tooth for so many years. 

[can]

I should add - since Beth's DNA is on hand from the test on June 12th 2005, a mitochondrial DNA test would confirm it is Natalee rather quickly.

In the event there is no mitochondrial DNA comparison - replication is essential. This would be used to compare to a tooth brush or hair brush - or even clothing with Touch DNA comparison using skin cells.

Mitochondrial DNA is passed from every mother to every child.

So, once again, it is known through mitochondrial DNA, dental overlay using electronic records of the jaw bone, and any cast Dave sent to Holland. I am sure the results are known by now.

Thanks Rob for your fine explanation.

Think you are saying that in Natalee's case, they already have the DNA replication, and it is only a matter of comparing that with the results of the DNA found in the tooth?

Isn't it amazing that DNA can remain in a tooth for so many years. 

to add.  Thus, since they are testing against Beth's DNA - and I expect the family made sure they got samples of Natalee's DNA in '05 as well, the problem of using up all the DNA in the tooth, would not be an issue here?

[can]

Good night Monkeys,
I have a question regarding the jaw found in Aruba. I know that it is a tooth attached to the jaw  but my questions is:....why the jay is detaches with the skull? with weather conditions and time, Will the tooth should fall out before the jaw detaches to the skull?

I heard Dr. Baden say that it's difficult for the jaw to become seperated so that the lower half is disjointed from the upper. It made me wonder if the separation was from an injury sustained at the time of death. Stephany's and Joran's encounter came to mind.

CBB - I have had the same horrible thought.

[Rob]

I should add - since Beth's DNA is on hand from the test on June 12th 2005, a mitochondrial DNA test would confirm it is Natalee rather quickly.

In the event there is no mitochondrial DNA comparison - replication is essential. This would be used to compare to a tooth brush or hair brush - or even clothing with Touch DNA comparison using skin cells.

Mitochondrial DNA is passed from every mother to every child.

So, once again, it is known through mitochondrial DNA, dental overlay using electronic records of the jaw bone, and any cast Dave sent to Holland. I am sure the results are known by now.

Thanks Rob for your fine explanation.

Think you are saying that in Natalee's case, they already have the DNA replication, and it is only a matter of comparing that with the results of the DNA found in the tooth?

Isn't it amazing that DNA can remain in a tooth for so many years. 

see, that's why they would do a replication technique. Just one tooth. It's not like they have a jaw full of teeth to test over and over.

Replication takes time - you need the sample from the tooth and then the time it takes to produce more DNA -

In nature - the DNA "unzips" it's Helix and then is joined by new DNA called Polymerase III. These are encoded with the leading strand to the lagging strand.

This all then happens with RNA Pimase and Primer. In a lab this process is recreated. This is how replication occurs. That sample is then tested against the control sample, the tooth root DNA and any samples from Beth and previously from Natalee's clothes, hair brush, tooth brush, blood samples.. etc..

it takes some time to accomplish this, but it would be done as a last step as a final confirmation after mitochondrial DNA, denatl over-lays and cast comparisons. It would be a final 100% confirmation.

Any of those initial processes would lead the investigation to conclude it is Natalee or not, but in the event it is - and those first steps are confirmed - the final tests would be DNA to the (possible) 600th letter. That would be proof without a doubt. A 1 quadrillion % lock.

[cecilita]

Good night Monkeys,
I have a question regarding the jaw found in Aruba. I know that it is a tooth attached to the jaw  but my questions is:....why the jay is detaches with the skull? with weather conditions and time, Will the tooth should fall out before the jaw detaches to the skull?

I heard Dr. Baden say that it's difficult for the jaw to become seperated so that the lower half is disjointed from the upper. It made me wonder if the separation was from an injury sustained at the time of death. Stephany's and Joran's encounter came to mind.

CBB - I have had the same horrible thought.

...or the separation was after her dead. If her skull was severe damaged maybe the aruban authorities separated the jaw from the skull to cover any kind of bad injury in her crane. In Stephany case we know that he used his elbow to hurt Stephany on her nose, maybe her upper jaw was detroyed.... Soon we will know the truth....