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Author Topic: Natalee Holloway Case Discussion #853 11/23/10 - 11/26/10  (Read 327751 times)
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wreck
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« Reply #520 on: November 23, 2010, 07:38:28 PM »

I like this theory (of course, plus or minus some details):
*PVDS/JVDS at casino with NH and friends.
*J2K arrive about an hour before close of CnC
*Spiked/unspiked alcoholic drinks served to NH, compliments of JVDS. Taxi scheme departure with J2K + NH.
*J2K + NH drive around a bit..Drug(s) take effect. Arrive at: (A) Secluded, non-tourist spot (rock scene?) OR (B) SlootHome
*Sexual assault. NH expires at: (A) SlootHome, OR (B) K2 vehicle.
*Panic. PVDS contacted. Takes control of situation. (Alibis. Online chats, porn site downloads, etc..)
*Heavy, Awkward body is temporarily hidden.
*Late night communication(s)/sightings/withdrawls. 630AM phone call.
*Long, exhausting night. No school. No work.
*Poolside meeting. No Body / No Case.
*Paulus contacts Jacobs / Straaten.
*5-8PM Racquet Club / Gym Bag / Tennis Instructions. Bag of Evidence and meeting with Gottenbos (The Boat). Boat Disposal?
*1000PM Heads up given on BHT arrival.
*Group arrives, wild gooses around island. Game - already fixed.
*Disinformation campaign to confuse and mislead. Unexplainable ALE behavior.
*Blocked assistance by other outside accredited international agencies. Allows for less transparency.

The crime was fairly simple...
The cover-up has been never-ending...

Where is her body? The million dollar question...For me, ideas include: Incinerator, Sloot property, Ocean, Grave.


Sloot property!!!
Remember how protective they were of the property when Greta went there? They wouldn't allow anyone on the property! I betcha that's where she is, all safe and sound and Joran knows no one will ever be allowed to search there.
That's why he laughed. He knew it was a media frenzy dead end.
There must be some kind of geological sonar machine that can x-ray that property.

As for Tim Miller. I was on to him years ago and got blasted for speaking against him in the monkey cage. Leonard Padilla is kind to Tim even though he was on to Tim years ago too when he messed up the Anthony search.
Thank you all who jumped my sh!t years ago and pushed me into hiding. heh. Happy Thanksgiving too.


Whoa! You weren't alone in questioning Tim and his drinking, but MANY of us had enough respect for the MANY good things he had done in the past to grant him more than just a little lee way. Mainly out of respect to Red who worked elbow to elbow with Tim in the sordid garbage dump of Aruba. I think it is safe to say THAT Tim Miller is different than the Tim Miller that has evolved today. If you are going to blast us for being protective of Tim, so be it -but, I would just hope that if you hate it here so much - just stay away.
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cadillac
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« Reply #521 on: November 23, 2010, 07:38:36 PM »

Maybe Tim Miller can go and get that boat that is standing by in Trinadad and
start his search, that he has talked so much about, and find Natalee and her
clothes and have her home by Christmas.

What is stopping him?

To quote Robots..."I hate them all."

I am at a loss for words and as most all of you know, that rarely happens.

The Persistance goes to Aruba 3 years ago and maps some 300 possible search sites. Are they actually searched, nah ... they go home.

I jaw bone is discovered in Aruba and suddenly all the clammer from Tim is that 300 areas were targeted in Aruba and that he and TES are going back to Aruba to search. Now that the jaw bone is determined not to be that of Natalee, the searches are off?

Um, what changed?

So the areas would only be searched if the jaw bone was Natalee's? Why was the mapping done in the first place if there was never any intention of actually searching what was mapped? Obviously every one can see how ignorant a premise that is.

If those who went on the persistance are so sure that she is in the water and one of the 300 targeted areas, then search em or shut up!

Why would anyone think that Natalee is in the ocean, map the area and then never do follow up? I will stop before my Italian temper comes out.
OMG how many times do I have to ask - Why are they not sitll searching the water and the "trap"?  They were only going to search if it was deemed Nat's?

I am beginning to wonder if she was cremated?
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Leroy
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« Reply #522 on: November 23, 2010, 07:41:25 PM »

Whoa! You weren't alone in questioning Tim and his drinking, but MANY of us had enough respect for the MANY good things he had done in the past to grant him more than just a little lee way. Mainly out of respect to Red who worked elbow to elbow with Tim in the sordid garbage dump of Aruba. I think it is safe to say THAT Tim Miller is different than the Tim Miller that has evolved today. If you are going to blast us for being protective of Tim, so be it -but, I would just hope that if you hate it here so much - just stay away.

Thanks Wreck...very well said.  I am outraged at Tim's latest actions but in the past he was a very different man....or at least his intentions were.
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klaasend
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« Reply #523 on: November 23, 2010, 07:46:11 PM »

Whoa! You weren't alone in questioning Tim and his drinking, but MANY of us had enough respect for the MANY good things he had done in the past to grant him more than just a little lee way. Mainly out of respect to Red who worked elbow to elbow with Tim in the sordid garbage dump of Aruba. I think it is safe to say THAT Tim Miller is different than the Tim Miller that has evolved today. If you are going to blast us for being protective of Tim, so be it -but, I would just hope that if you hate it here so much - just stay away.

Thanks Wreck...very well said.  I am outraged at Tim's latest actions but in the past he was a very different man....or at least his intentions were.

I agree with both of you. 
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« Reply #524 on: November 23, 2010, 07:51:34 PM »

Blonde - Glenda lies so if she says JQK was notified yesterday I'm sure he wasn't.  She is a worthless pile.
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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #525 on: November 23, 2010, 07:51:48 PM »


Kyle was wrong. His overlay of Natalee's body in the trap was wrong and was extremely cruel to her family..........imo.

I beg to differ, Nimrod.  I could see the same thing that Kyle saw and I believe it
was Natalee's remains in that trap/cage.

Then you saw something that I never saw.







The Analysis

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman
:  .... I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Kyle Kingman: Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand. I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs. I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location. Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kermit

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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
MuffyBee
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« Reply #526 on: November 23, 2010, 07:54:17 PM »

Tim Miller needs to put his ego aside and accepted what has happened had nothing to do with him.  What a desperate man.
He doesn't have many success stories. Natalee and Caylee Anthony are under his belt. What a shame. He has no experience in searching other than raising money and creating false hope. I'm so diasppointed in his services. I have respect for his efforts but I don't have faith in his actions.

Anyway, since Tim did locate places I'm sure there have been scuba divers out there who have tampered with the crime scene.

jj-  I'm not going to turn this into a Tim Miller thing in this thread, but I want to make note that you are wrong here, and it's not just my opinion.  Tim Miller and Texas Equusearch actually DO have many success stories, and as far as your statement about him having no experience searching other than raising money and creating false hope?  Wrong.  Wrong.  He has helped many over the years and when I get some coffee in me, I can go find some links and statistics for you.  I believe in giving credit where credit is due.  In my opinion, what has people here (including me) so ticked off at Tim Miller is because he HAS been so good in the past helping find the lost, including Natalee, and supported Beth.  Then the problems seemed to start with the Persistence.  And then he turned on Beth, saying the awful things he said on the Steph Watts show.  Yep, I understand people's anger (and I'm mad too) at Tim Miller, but please keep the facts straight.  Tim Miller and Equusearch are very experienced in finding the lost and are still being asked by LE to assist, such as in case just this week (Joshua Wilkerson) and it's on Scared Monkeys Missing Forum.  I too would like to find out just why Tim Miller disparaged Beth Holloway and what went on with the Persistence.  I'm mad as he77 over that.  But as far as Tim having no experience searching and not having many success stories?  That's just not true.

Agreed Muffy is why it is such a struggle to understand what happened.  As i said somehow i think he got lost if im saying that right. 

For jjinthemorning
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klaasend
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« Reply #527 on: November 23, 2010, 07:57:21 PM »

Tim Miller needs to put his ego aside and accepted what has happened had nothing to do with him.  What a desperate man.
He doesn't have many success stories. Natalee and Caylee Anthony are under his belt. What a shame. He has no experience in searching other than raising money and creating false hope. I'm so diasppointed in his services. I have respect for his efforts but I don't have faith in his actions.

Anyway, since Tim did locate places I'm sure there have been scuba divers out there who have tampered with the crime scene.

JJ - Tim miller may have lost his way but he has had many success stories.  We may not like what he did in Aruba with the ocean search but nothing will take away the good he has done in recovering the bodies of many missing people.
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MuffyBee
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« Reply #528 on: November 23, 2010, 07:57:47 PM »

Tim Miller needs to put his ego aside and accepted what has happened had nothing to do with him.  What a desperate man.
He doesn't have many success stories. Natalee and Caylee Anthony are under his belt. What a shame. He has no experience in searching other than raising money and creating false hope. I'm so diasppointed in his services. I have respect for his efforts but I don't have faith in his actions.

Anyway, since Tim did locate places I'm sure there have been scuba divers out there who have tampered with the crime scene.

This is not completely true. TES has done many searches in the past on cases that never make the news. They have been a part of sucessful searches, the MSM just never thought the cases were worth covering.

That does not mean that I have to scratch my heads in how some of the higher profile cases were dealt with.


Forjjinthemorning

Bumping this post up from Red, who has worked with Tim Miller.
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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #529 on: November 23, 2010, 07:58:34 PM »

Nancy Grace Time (HLN)!!

Janet
5:00 PM
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
jjayinthemorning
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« Reply #530 on: November 23, 2010, 08:00:32 PM »


Whoa! You weren't alone in questioning Tim and his drinking, but MANY of us had enough respect for the MANY good things he had done in the past to grant him more than just a little lee way. Mainly out of respect to Red who worked elbow to elbow with Tim in the sordid garbage dump of Aruba. I think it is safe to say THAT Tim Miller is different than the Tim Miller that has evolved today. If you are going to blast us for being protective of Tim, so be it -but, I would just hope that if you hate it here so much - just stay away.
Dude, it's no biggie. I didn't realize Red was an elbow girl. Yeah, Tim evolved. That's kind of you to say.
I never said anything about hate, not my words, thanks though.
Settle down, it's the holidays.

I never questioned Tim's drinking. I always questioned his integrity and professionalism. I just hope he knows that he does more harm than help in 2 major cases, this one and the Anthony case. He did harm. Part of the 12 steps is to realize he has a problem first.

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jjayinthemorning
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« Reply #531 on: November 23, 2010, 08:03:30 PM »

Tim Miller needs to put his ego aside and accepted what has happened had nothing to do with him.  What a desperate man.
He doesn't have many success stories. Natalee and Caylee Anthony are under his belt. What a shame. He has no experience in searching other than raising money and creating false hope. I'm so diasppointed in his services. I have respect for his efforts but I don't have faith in his actions.

Anyway, since Tim did locate places I'm sure there have been scuba divers out there who have tampered with the crime scene.

This is not completely true. TES has done many searches in the past on cases that never make the news. They have been a part of sucessful searches, the MSM just never thought the cases were worth covering.

That does not mean that I have to scratch my heads in how some of the higher profile cases were dealt with.


Forjjinthemorning

Bumping this post up from Red, who has worked with Tim Miller.
Don't be offended Red!
Many of us are frustrated.
An organization is only as good as it's leadership and TES has a problem.
United Way has never recovered from their "good" deeds either.

I think there are many good people out there doing many good things. I appreciate those who have worked hard to do the right thing.
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Red
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« Reply #532 on: November 23, 2010, 08:03:44 PM »

Whoa! You weren't alone in questioning Tim and his drinking, but MANY of us had enough respect for the MANY good things he had done in the past to grant him more than just a little lee way. Mainly out of respect to Red who worked elbow to elbow with Tim in the sordid garbage dump of Aruba. I think it is safe to say THAT Tim Miller is different than the Tim Miller that has evolved today. If you are going to blast us for being protective of Tim, so be it -but, I would just hope that if you hate it here so much - just stay away.

Thanks Wreck...very well said.  I am outraged at Tim's latest actions but in the past he was a very different man....or at least his intentions were.

I agree with both of you.  

I would agree as well. Not even close to being the same and it sadens me. I have been to hell and back with Tim and I am speechless at some of the things that have happened recently.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 08:06:20 PM by Red » Logged
Magnolia
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« Reply #533 on: November 23, 2010, 08:03:44 PM »




It makes me sick and it makes me hate Aruba even more that the OM's office
 would let Renho know anything at all before they let Beth know.  She has no
right to their inside information.  She has done as much to waylay the case as
anybody.  I hope that lightening strikes her as she flies on her broomstick.
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Kiwi
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« Reply #534 on: November 23, 2010, 08:04:19 PM »

Holland needs to follow up the DNA scan and profile the jaw bone.  They need to determine how long its been in the water and who it is. This could be helpful down the road just to calculate rates of decomp to time in the ocean. To just stop investigating is pretty backward. If they find who this is they could actually map movements with currents and tracking. Unless there is just too many bones washing ashore in Aruba.
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« Reply #535 on: November 23, 2010, 08:06:31 PM »


Whoa! You weren't alone in questioning Tim and his drinking, but MANY of us had enough respect for the MANY good things he had done in the past to grant him more than just a little lee way. Mainly out of respect to Red who worked elbow to elbow with Tim in the sordid garbage dump of Aruba. I think it is safe to say THAT Tim Miller is different than the Tim Miller that has evolved today. If you are going to blast us for being protective of Tim, so be it -but, I would just hope that if you hate it here so much - just stay away.
Dude, it's no biggie. I didn't realize Red was an elbow girl. Yeah, Tim evolved. That's kind of you to say.
I never said anything about hate, not my words, thanks though.
Settle down, it's the holidays.

I never questioned Tim's drinking. I always questioned his integrity and professionalism. I just hope he knows that he does more harm than help in 2 major cases, this one and the Anthony case. He did harm. Part of the 12 steps is to realize he has a problem first.



Respectfully I disagree with you.  But I wont contribute to this conversation anymore. 

This is about Natalee.  The best thing that could happen for me is that Natalee is found and those that are responsible will be punished.  They say the best things come to those who wait...and I'm waiting!!!
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Northern Rose
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« Reply #536 on: November 23, 2010, 08:06:36 PM »



Wow Glenda continually knows everything that has anything to do with Aruba or the search for Natalee before it even happens. Bet Glenda could tell us when the last time Anita took a dump was and did her sh1t float or sink.  Maybe the FBI should be picking her up and giving her a nice welcome with a little water torture as she surely knows where to find Natalee if she knows so much. 
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Red
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« Reply #537 on: November 23, 2010, 08:07:38 PM »

The dumbasses apologists are alive and well on the Nancy Grace show ... Aruba should learn their lesson from this. WHAT!!!

How many Mulligans do these F'ers get!!!

If Nancy Grace was hosting she would have blasted the IDIOT.
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wreck
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« Reply #538 on: November 23, 2010, 08:07:59 PM »


Whoa! You weren't alone in questioning Tim and his drinking, but MANY of us had enough respect for the MANY good things he had done in the past to grant him more than just a little lee way. Mainly out of respect to Red who worked elbow to elbow with Tim in the sordid garbage dump of Aruba. I think it is safe to say THAT Tim Miller is different than the Tim Miller that has evolved today. If you are going to blast us for being protective of Tim, so be it -but, I would just hope that if you hate it here so much - just stay away.
Dude, it's no biggie. I didn't realize Red was an elbow girl. Yeah, Tim evolved. That's kind of you to say.
I never said anything about hate, not my words, thanks though.
Settle down, it's the holidays.

I never questioned Tim's drinking. I always questioned his integrity and professionalism. I just hope he knows that he does more harm than help in 2 major cases, this one and the Anthony case. He did harm. Part of the 12 steps is to realize he has a problem first.


"elbow girl"??????? WTH 
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Leroy
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« Reply #539 on: November 23, 2010, 08:09:52 PM »

Tim Miller needs to put his ego aside and accepted what has happened had nothing to do with him.  What a desperate man.
He doesn't have many success stories. Natalee and Caylee Anthony are under his belt. What a shame. He has no experience in searching other than raising money and creating false hope. I'm so diasppointed in his services. I have respect for his efforts but I don't have faith in his actions.

Anyway, since Tim did locate places I'm sure there have been scuba divers out there who have tampered with the crime scene.

This is not completely true. TES has done many searches in the past on cases that never make the news. They have been a part of sucessful searches, the MSM just never thought the cases were worth covering.

That does not mean that I have to scratch my heads in how some of the higher profile cases were dealt with.


Forjjinthemorning

Bumping this post up from Red, who has worked with Tim Miller.
Don't be offended Red!
Many of us are frustrated.
An organization is only as good as it's leadership and TES has a problem.
United Way has never recovered from their "good" deeds either.

I think there are many good people out there doing many good things. I appreciate those who have worked hard to do the right thing.

Those good people out there doing the right thing have probably screwed up a few times along the way. 

I hope someday Tim takes a step back and regains his focus.  But I'll never take away the good he has given many families -- not even on his worst days.
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