Kyron Horman, 7 years old, Portland OR #38 12/18/10 - 12/24/10

[fatcatlurker]

Please someone explain to me where and how did Terri get Kyron out of the building without being seen? If you were to put the name "terri" in the place of "man with 2 girls" does it still fit as a way for Terri to get Kyron out of the building? Did she lure him in the downstairs area and turned right off the stairs and through a back room or kitchen? Could she have placed him in the boiler room for someone to later pick him up?

How did anyone get him out of the building?  And better yet how did anyone get him out of the building with no one seeing anything odd or noteworthy. 

Poof in a 15 minute time period he just drops off the face of the earth.  Gone.  No one saw anything odd.  It's just noted that Kyron is no longer there.

Sometime between 8:45 and 9:00AM when witness accounts place him near the stairs by the south entrance, Kyron seems to have gone poof.
If I were trying to get a child out of a building without being detected I would take them to a room or area there was no chance to be seen, over power the child, tie and gag him/her and conceal him/her in a container of sorts. I would use a door that didn't have high traffic but could easily explain away if someone caught me or seen me exiting. When looking at the map of the basement I see two areas that I feel could be used, the boiler room and the music room, both have doors that lead outside.   

Ok I'm going with a man or large/strong woman.  A 50 pound dead weight child is awful heavy.  I have a 47 pound pup I pick up everynight to crate as he plays dead and just walking across the room with him is not easy, doable but not easy.

The basement I would assume has a couple of steps up from the ground level?  Atleast I thought it did when I looked at the boiler room picture of the door.  I'll look again.

[Puzzler]

Please someone explain to me where and how did Terri get Kyron out of the building without being seen? If you were to put the name "terri" in the place of "man with 2 girls" does it still fit as a way for Terri to get Kyron out of the building? Did she lure him in the downstairs area and turned right off the stairs and through a back room or kitchen? Could she have placed him in the boiler room for someone to later pick him up?

How did anyone get him out of the building?  And better yet how did anyone get him out of the building with no one seeing anything odd or noteworthy. 

Poof in a 15 minute time period he just drops off the face of the earth.  Gone.  No one saw anything odd.  It's just noted that Kyron is no longer there.

FCL - good question - seems like he vanished of the face of the earth.  We know that didn't happen, so what did.  If he went missing between 8:45 and 9:00 a.m. - the bell rang at 8:45 and everyone was probably rushing to get to the room they were supposed to be in - prime time (everyone "focused" on their destination", rushing, not paying attention to everyone else) for someone to pull or push or guide Kyron into an empty room, etc.

[fatcatlurker]

I do believe LE was saying she was the last known person to have been with Kyron and isn't that true? Even if she was not the one that took him?
I am not trying to ruffle any feathers but the information released in the beginning of the case may not be what has ended up as truth.

Fog-of-war scenario - ambiquity - first several ways it's reported turns out to not pan out to be the truth in the end.

Don't want their sources/true witnesses leaked to the true perp.  Just adding on another thought.

[Tracygirl]

After my son passed the 50 lb mark I could not carry him to his bed. I have to empty salt bags into our water softener and those are about 50 lbs. So, I would think unless the container could roll and had wheels, btw I think there is a ramp, it would not be a normal strengthed woman. I think a man could handle it easily.

[Puzzler]

Please someone explain to me where and how did Terri get Kyron out of the building without being seen? If you were to put the name "terri" in the place of "man with 2 girls" does it still fit as a way for Terri to get Kyron out of the building? Did she lure him in the downstairs area and turned right off the stairs and through a back room or kitchen? Could she have placed him in the boiler room for someone to later pick him up?

How did anyone get him out of the building?  And better yet how did anyone get him out of the building with no one seeing anything odd or noteworthy. 

Poof in a 15 minute time period he just drops off the face of the earth.  Gone.  No one saw anything odd.  It's just noted that Kyron is no longer there.

Sometime between 8:45 and 9:00AM when witness accounts place him near the stairs by the south entrance, Kyron seems to have gone poof.
If I were trying to get a child out of a building without being detected I would take them to a room or area there was no chance to be seen, over power the child, tie and gag him/her and conceal him/her in a container of sorts. I would use a door that didn't have high traffic but could easily explain away if someone caught me or seen me exiting. When looking at the map of the basement I see two areas that I feel could be used, the boiler room and the music room, both have doors that lead outside.   

Ok I'm going with a man or large/strong woman.  A 50 pound dead weight child is awful heavy.  I have a 47 pound pup I pick up everynight to crate as he plays dead and just walking across the room with him is not easy, doable but not easy.

The basement I would assume has a couple of steps up from the ground level?  Atleast I thought it did when I looked at the boiler room picture of the door.  I'll look again.

I would think there would be roll-around containers in the school that could be used and no one would pay attention because they're used to seeing the containers in the school.  Roll-cart would make handling 50 lbs. easy.

[Puzzler]

I do believe LE was saying she was the last known person to have been with Kyron and isn't that true? Even if she was not the one that took him?
I am not trying to ruffle any feathers but the information released in the beginning of the case may not be what has ended up as truth.

Fog-of-war scenario - ambiquity - first several ways it's reported turns out to not pan out to be the truth in the end.

Don't want their sources/true witnesses leaked to the true perp.  Just adding on another thought.

Yep.

[fatcatlurker]

Please someone explain to me where and how did Terri get Kyron out of the building without being seen? If you were to put the name "terri" in the place of "man with 2 girls" does it still fit as a way for Terri to get Kyron out of the building? Did she lure him in the downstairs area and turned right off the stairs and through a back room or kitchen? Could she have placed him in the boiler room for someone to later pick him up?

How did anyone get him out of the building?  And better yet how did anyone get him out of the building with no one seeing anything odd or noteworthy. 

Poof in a 15 minute time period he just drops off the face of the earth.  Gone.  No one saw anything odd.  It's just noted that Kyron is no longer there.

FCL - good question - seems like he vanished of the face of the earth.  We know that didn't happen, so what did.  If he went missing between 8:45 and 9:00 a.m. - the bell rang at 8:45 and everyone was probably rushing to get to the room they were supposed to be in - prime time (everyone "focused" on their destination", rushing, not paying attention to everyone else) for someone to pull or push or guide Kyron into an empty room, etc.

If we go with the assumed timeline that the children were to group up with chaperone's at 9-9:15 to view exhibits it has to be someone who was already on their way out the door or stashed him until they were ready to leave.

Adults are either - chaperones or teachers after 9am for tours correct?  Teachers had to maintain students in classes with chaperones for guided tours.  So a lingering parent/guest from earlier headed out the door.  Rambling sorry.

[Tracygirl]

I don't think there is a pic of the boiler room door, I think it was the mechanical room door which I think is on the other side of the building behind cr110?

[Tracygirl]

Please someone explain to me where and how did Terri get Kyron out of the building without being seen? If you were to put the name "terri" in the place of "man with 2 girls" does it still fit as a way for Terri to get Kyron out of the building? Did she lure him in the downstairs area and turned right off the stairs and through a back room or kitchen? Could she have placed him in the boiler room for someone to later pick him up?

How did anyone get him out of the building?  And better yet how did anyone get him out of the building with no one seeing anything odd or noteworthy. 

Poof in a 15 minute time period he just drops off the face of the earth.  Gone.  No one saw anything odd.  It's just noted that Kyron is no longer there.

Sometime between 8:45 and 9:00AM when witness accounts place him near the stairs by the south entrance, Kyron seems to have gone poof.
If I were trying to get a child out of a building without being detected I would take them to a room or area there was no chance to be seen, over power the child, tie and gag him/her and conceal him/her in a container of sorts. I would use a door that didn't have high traffic but could easily explain away if someone caught me or seen me exiting. When looking at the map of the basement I see two areas that I feel could be used, the boiler room and the music room, both have doors that lead outside.   

Ok I'm going with a man or large/strong woman.  A 50 pound dead weight child is awful heavy.  I have a 47 pound pup I pick up everynight to crate as he plays dead and just walking across the room with him is not easy, doable but not easy.

The basement I would assume has a couple of steps up from the ground level?  Atleast I thought it did when I looked at the boiler room picture of the door.  I'll look again.

I would think there would be roll-around containers in the school that could be used and no one would pay attention because they're used to seeing the containers in the school.  Roll-cart would make handling 50 lbs. easy.

Ok, so a person (person #1) over powers Kyron, ties him up, gags him, places him into a rolling trash can, we saw a pic of one. The parent has the story ready if seen that he was just helping out if he is caught. He is parked near the back of the school or someone meets him (person #2) and takes Kyron out of the can and leaves with him.  There is a covered parking area near the garbage can that someone could have easily been parked or waiting.   

[Puzzler]

FCL - maybe other school personnel that are not teachers; i.e., maintenance man, kitchen workers, janitor, delivery people, etc.

[islandmonkey]

After my son passed the 50 lb mark I could not carry him to his bed. I have to empty salt bags into our water softener and those are about 50 lbs. So, I would think unless the container could roll and had wheels, btw I think there is a ramp, it would not be a normal strengthed woman. I think a man could handle it easily.

I tend to agree, but I will say I can and have carried my son when he fell asleep at a friend's house to the car and he weighed about 64 lbs, I'm about 103.....I couldn't do it any further than 75 ft and downstairs, and prolly should have quit yrs ago ...maybe I wouldn't have herniated disc. The premise stated above is why I posted the picture of the garbage can when my lil man's teacher whipped it out last Thursday. I can see him being shoved and pushed in the halls by kids being rambunctious due to SF, TS and general Spring Fever and an adult taking advantage of this, pushing him the boiler room and after reading so much about duct tape, tape the mouth and then hands and feet together, hide him in a container and then when the roll the container out to a vehicle. D@mn, that was hard to type..........

[Puzzler]

IMO, Kyron would not necessarily be gagged and tied up.  Stun gun, chemical (cloth over mouth), knock on the head, several ways to render a little boy quiet and helpless. 

[Puzzler]

After my son passed the 50 lb mark I could not carry him to his bed. I have to empty salt bags into our water softener and those are about 50 lbs. So, I would think unless the container could roll and had wheels, btw I think there is a ramp, it would not be a normal strengthed woman. I think a man could handle it easily.

I tend to agree, but I will say I can and have carried my son when he fell asleep at a friend's house to the car and he weighed about 64 lbs, I'm about 103.....I couldn't do it any further than 75 ft and downstairs, and prolly should have quit yrs ago ...maybe I wouldn't have herniated disc. The premise stated above is why I posted the picture of the garbage can when my lil man's teacher whipped it out last Thursday. I can see him being shoved and pushed in the halls by kids being rambunctious due to SF, TS and general Spring Fever and an adult taking advantage of this, pushing him the boiler room and after reading so much about duct tape, tape the mouth and then hands and feet together, hide him in a container and then when the roll the container out to a vehicle. D@mn, that was hard to type..........

DUCT TAPE!!! Why didn't I think of that one...used all the time.  Quick...a piece of duct tape unexpectedly place across the mouth would silence someone immediately.

[Puzzler]

I don't think there is a pic of the boiler room door, I think it was the mechanical room door which I think is on the other side of the building behind cr110?

With the children in little groups going around to see the exhibits with their chaperones...no one would be paying any attention to any carts being rolled outside. 

Chaperones were used to help divide the childrend into small group...I'm assuming the teachers were taking small groups around, too. 

[islandmonkey]

FCL - maybe other school personnel that are not teachers; i.e., maintenance man, kitchen workers, janitor, delivery people, etc.

photo of mechanical room/boiler room from outside

[islandmonkey]

After my son passed the 50 lb mark I could not carry him to his bed. I have to empty salt bags into our water softener and those are about 50 lbs. So, I would think unless the container could roll and had wheels, btw I think there is a ramp, it would not be a normal strengthed woman. I think a man could handle it easily.

I tend to agree, but I will say I can and have carried my son when he fell asleep at a friend's house to the car and he weighed about 64 lbs, I'm about 103.....I couldn't do it any further than 75 ft and downstairs, and prolly should have quit yrs ago ...maybe I wouldn't have herniated disc. The premise stated above is why I posted the picture of the garbage can when my lil man's teacher whipped it out last Thursday. I can see him being shoved and pushed in the halls by kids being rambunctious due to SF, TS and general Spring Fever and an adult taking advantage of this, pushing him the boiler room and after reading so much about duct tape, tape the mouth and then hands and feet together, hide him in a container and then when the roll the container out to a vehicle. D@mn, that was hard to type..........

DUCT TAPE!!! Why didn't I think of that one...used all the time.  Quick...a piece of duct tape unexpectedly place across the mouth would silence someone immediately.

After Caylee and then Natalie and Jon Deblase in Alabama......it just popped in my head the way the trash "roller diskie thingy" did last week

[fatcatlurker]

I don't think there is a pic of the boiler room door, I think it was the mechanical room door which I think is on the other side of the building behind cr110?

Where is the door you are referring to?  The one with the ramp?  Your diagram shows the boiler room on the back in the middle behind the library and to the left of the kitchen/cafe. 

[islandmonkey]

I don't think there is a pic of the boiler room door, I think it was the mechanical room door which I think is on the other side of the building behind cr110?

With the children in little groups going around to see the exhibits with their chaperones...no one would be paying any attention to any carts being rolled outside. 

Chaperones were used to help divide the childrend into small group...I'm assuming the teachers were taking small groups around, too. 

This is the book I keep referning to and the movie trailer.......watch about 12 seconds in

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198703/along_came_a_spider_movie_trailer/

[islandmonkey]

I don't think there is a pic of the boiler room door, I think it was the mechanical room door which I think is on the other side of the building behind cr110?

With the children in little groups going around to see the exhibits with their chaperones...no one would be paying any attention to any carts being rolled outside. 

Chaperones were used to help divide the childrend into small group...I'm assuming the teachers were taking small groups around, too. 

This is the book I keep referning to and the movie trailer.......watch about 12 seconds in

Edit ....better link with no commercials:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdoursSfYLw

[fatcatlurker]

I don't think there is a pic of the boiler room door, I think it was the mechanical room door which I think is on the other side of the building behind cr110?

With the children in little groups going around to see the exhibits with their chaperones...no one would be paying any attention to any carts being rolled outside. 

Chaperones were used to help divide the childrend into small group...I'm assuming the teachers were taking small groups around, too. 

At what time did the children divide into groups?  At what time would Kyron have been assigned a group and gone off with them to tour?  Did they all assemble somewhere and get divided up into groups? 

My understanding of Kyron's day was that he toured with Terri and than she left 8:45-9am(who the heck knows when) and Kyron just wanders off.  So what was everyone else doing at that time?  Where was everyone else?

I'm thinking of function of persons there that day.  Everyone had a reason for being that day.  Parents/teachers touring with groups of children.  Did some parents leave during this time period because the groups did divide and they were not staying to chaperone.

Not to downplay or exclude staff but I'd think LE has checked all of them out extensively even if they did screw up months ago.