Kyron Horman, 7 years old, Portland, OR #43 5/23/11 - 4/11/12

[Titch]

titch: I'm so sorry I logged off before reading you post. I've been sick in bed, and wanted to make sure I made a post.

I agree with not focusing on Terri. Not because I think she is innocent of partaking in Kyron's disappearance, but because it doesn't allow you to go outside that realm of thinking. I also, am not convinced that Rudy had any part in this.

Need to go back to bed, but I wanted to say that I would LOVE to have your help. You have always been a great sleuther and great at finding info. I have, now, over 270 emails that I need to sort through from various sources, and people wanting to help. So I need to organize them.

Great to have you back my friend! 

Wow, thank you, I feel the same about you.

3 things I'd like to add to my last post, though.

A) When I mentioned Sanchez, I wasn't referring to him being involved in Ky's disappearance. I think he's the turning point, though, the key. I promise not to concentrate too deeply there, though. I just think somebody was linked to him whether it was through landscaping or marriage. I think he has some questionable links.

B) I REALLY believe there was questionable bed partner swapping going on, with both TH & KH. I found some links to Terri last summer that made it obvious to me, but I couldn't validate the online rumors about Kaine. I firmly believe Terri cheated on Kaine. I do believe they had a very dysfunctional marriage. From what I've found, he berated her, like he kept her in her 'place' so to speak. From info online, it became obvious KH had a temper with her, was controlling, and articulate with things having to be a certain way. With swinging on top of an already dysfunctional marriage, who knows who those kids were exposed to. Kyron & James were caught in the middle of utter dysfunction. Kiara didn't know the difference.

Something for people to think about,  which is something that made me think: Why can Terri see James but she has no visitation with Kiara if the authorities are sure she's involved in Kyron's disappearance? My eyes are on her, too, but I'm gonna try to think outside the box this time around. I'm not pointing the finger at Kaine, not at all, but their marriage was very far from perfect. When KH said that he had no idea TH felt this way, that he knew they had problems before but they worked them out...well I'm saying that's a crock of shit. No they didn't. Their marriage was the epitomy of dysfunction & unhappiness.

C) Why isn't the school being held responsible? Why no charges? Why do certain people still have certain jobs? The whole Portland Public School System is very shady. There were some pretty crooked things done in the past. There were various teachers & helpers that were involved in some yucky stuff. Why was their BOE using contracting companies to do various work throughout their entire school system, when some of these companies use people that don't even have legitimate work visas?

[Titch]

I want to add something...

I want to look into all Masonic Lodges involved with the Horman family.

I'll say that my maternal gpop was a Mason & was a very good person, but Masons are like your truest frat brothers. They'd die for their brother. They are tight with all aspects of upper eschelin organizations including government officials, fire & rescue, plus education. There are some that are just like some churches that we hear about that are involved in very secret activities. I am not a conspiracy theorist. This is fact. My gpop was bc his father was, and so on. There was no bad stuff that I've seen in which my gpop would have been involved. I do hear, however, that there are several that are used for child trading & sexual initiations among members. Some organizations practice 'swapping'. I'm not saying this happened, just putting it out there bc you just never know what we could all find that's out there. Be prepared.

[sassifrass]

I want to add something...

I want to look into all Masonic Lodges involved with the Horman family.

I'll say that my maternal gpop was a Mason & was a very good person, but Masons are like your truest frat brothers. They'd die for their brother. They are tight with all aspects of upper eschelin organizations including government officials, fire & rescue, plus education. There are some that are just like some churches that we hear about that are involved in very secret activities. I am not a conspiracy theorist. This is fact. My gpop was bc his father was, and so on. There was no bad stuff that I've seen in which my gpop would have been involved. I do hear, however, that there are several that are used for child trading & sexual initiations among members. Some organizations practice 'swapping'. I'm not saying this happened, just putting it out there bc you just never know what we could all find that's out there. Be prepared.

I would love for you to delve in this area. I started doing some research, and of course, got distracted. What ever you can find.

As far as I'm concerned, with the exception of Desiree and Tony, NOBODY is unsleuthable (is that a word?).

After every thing that I've seen and read through interaction via email, and not posted about, there is a definite potential that Kyron may be alive. As long as that possibility exists or even if it doesn't exist, we need to find him and the person(s) that is responsible.

Is there any chance that you can find any info on David Owen Gill? Like previous employment, etc. He and his son(?) are off the grid. I can't find any electronic footprint on him.

[Titch]

Omg. I decided to start at the beginning of this thread and already I have a headache.

I will be the first person to come out & say that I think Terri is responsible, ok ...but but but... I don't understand how it would be a problem for Terri to make a doctor's appt for Ky. She would not need anyone's permission. She raised Kyron with Kaine. Desiree is a wonderful mother that loves her son but Terri was married to Kaine and did everything for Kyron. Again, my hinky is on for Terri, but it is a fact all over our entire country that just bc Terri is "just a stepmom" it doesn't mean she can't take the kid to the doctor. Kyron lived with Kaine & Terri! She wasn't just a girlfriend for crying out loud. Her name, I'm sure, is on an emergency contact list at school as well as the doctor. Desiree & Kaine would be listed as parents that have 2 different addresses. Kyron spent alot of time with Terri. For all we know, she was probably the one that took him for his shots & physicals, sick visits, oh yeah and to the eye doctor too to get glasses. Just bc somebody is a step-parent doesn't mean they haven't the right to care for a child that lives with them, who they cook for, who they wash for, who they help do their homework, who they volunteer to help in classes & film plays & musicals...omg!

Terri was there all the time, more than anybody. I believe Kyron should have been with his mother, he was happiest with Desiree & Tony from everything I found. He loved his father dearly, as well, but there was alot of telling & screaming going on at his home.

I still think it boils to Terri not being able to take it anymore, that she felt she had all the responsibility, that she had to beg for spending money, that she spent alot of time on the computer on social networking sites & online games bc she was thoroughly unhappy & dissatisfied with herself for staying in yet another marriage that was failing. I think Kaine was manipulative & controlling but he didn't know any other way to be bc he felt like his hands were tied being the only bread winner. I feel as though there was a tug of war going on with regards to authority. Maybe Terri was pissed that her son moved out but Kaine could "keep" his son living there. Maybe Kitty was sick with an ear infection so she kept everybody up at night. Maybe the arguing & fighting between Terri & Jaine also kept the kids up.

Maybe, just maybe, that's why Kaine insisted he didn't notice anything wrong with Kyron. Maybe it's bc deep down he felt guilty & brushed it off. Lack of sleep & tons of stress can cause seizures. Seizures can come in the form of staring spells. ADHD is a sign and could be linked to seizures during sleep, after REM but before the 3rd stage which is when dreams occur, the focal area with memory.

Side note - My husband is my 2 oldest boys' stepfather. They are on his insurance & everything. My ex is one of my best friends. Our families are very close & share holidays together, not seperate. I know not everybody can relate to that but we all feel blessed in my family to rise above the stupid statistics. My boys call my husband Dad & their father Daddy. I could care less. My husband has the same rights as myself & my ex. My hubby takes them for physicals if they feel uncomfortable with me there, has been to the emergency room for stitches, broken legs, arm, clavicle, ankle...list goes on...but he's there just as much as myself or my ex! He's also coached everything my boys have been involved with, most of the time he dies signups without me even being present! So yeah, that's it in a nutshell.

[Titch]

I'm sorry for all the typos. It's hard typing when you're irritated.

People have put so much time into the search for Kyron. If somebody doesn't like what we monkeys do, then that's their problem.

This is one of those times when an ignore button would come handy. Ugggh!

[Titch]

I want to add something...

I want to look into all Masonic Lodges involved with the Horman family.

I'll say that my maternal gpop was a Mason & was a very good person, but Masons are like your truest frat brothers. They'd die for their brother. They are tight with all aspects of upper eschelin organizations including government officials, fire & rescue, plus education. There are some that are just like some churches that we hear about that are involved in very secret activities. I am not a conspiracy theorist. This is fact. My gpop was bc his father was, and so on. There was no bad stuff that I've seen in which my gpop would have been involved. I do hear, however, that there are several that are used for child trading & sexual initiations among members. Some organizations practice 'swapping'. I'm not saying this happened, just putting it out there bc you just never know what we could all find that's out there. Be prepared.

I would love for you to delve in this area. I started doing some research, and of course, got distracted. What ever you can find.

As far as I'm concerned, with the exception of Desiree and Tony, NOBODY is unsleuthable (is that a word?).

After every thing that I've seen and read through interaction via email, and not posted about, there is a definite potential that Kyron may be alive. As long as that possibility exists or even if it doesn't exist, we need to find him and the person(s) that is responsible.

Is there any chance that you can find any info on David Owen Gill? Like previous employment, etc. He and his son(?) are off the grid. I can't find any electronic footprint on him.

I'll do my best, but I think part of his name went through a change...maybe. If you have his past addresses, could you please post them?

[sassifrass]

titch: per my post here: http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=9426.440 They have a total of 4 addresses.

GILL,DAVID O
GILL,DEBRA A
7010 NW SKYLINE BLVD
PORTLAND  OR  97229

17639 COSSET LOOP  LA PINE 97739

GILL,DAVID OWEN
GILL,DEBRA ANN
PO BOX 83403
PORTLAND  OR  97283

52752 KELVEL CT  LA PINE 97739 ( a 419 sq ft cabin)

No known other addresses that I can find.

[sassifrass]

Omg. I decided to start at the beginning of this thread and already I have a headache.

I will be the first person to come out & say that I think Terri is responsible, ok ...but but but... I don't understand how it would be a problem for Terri to make a doctor's appt for Ky. She would not need anyone's permission. She raised Kyron with Kaine. Desiree is a wonderful mother that loves her son but Terri was married to Kaine and did everything for Kyron. Again, my hinky is on for Terri, but it is a fact all over our entire country that just bc Terri is "just a stepmom" it doesn't mean she can't take the kid to the doctor. Kyron lived with Kaine & Terri! She wasn't just a girlfriend for crying out loud. Her name, I'm sure, is on an emergency contact list at school as well as the doctor. Desiree & Kaine would be listed as parents that have 2 different addresses. Kyron spent alot of time with Terri. For all we know, she was probably the one that took him for his shots & physicals, sick visits, oh yeah and to the eye doctor too to get glasses. Just bc somebody is a step-parent doesn't mean they haven't the right to care for a child that lives with them, who they cook for, who they wash for, who they help do their homework, who they volunteer to help in classes & film plays & musicals...omg!

Terri was there all the time, more than anybody. I believe Kyron should have been with his mother, he was happiest with Desiree & Tony from everything I found. He loved his father dearly, as well, but there was alot of telling & screaming going on at his home.

I still think it boils to Terri not being able to take it anymore, that she felt she had all the responsibility, that she had to beg for spending money, that she spent alot of time on the computer on social networking sites & online games bc she was thoroughly unhappy & dissatisfied with herself for staying in yet another marriage that was failing. I think Kaine was manipulative & controlling but he didn't know any other way to be bc he felt like his hands were tied being the only bread winner. I feel as though there was a tug of war going on with regards to authority. Maybe Terri was pissed that her son moved out but Kaine could "keep" his son living there. Maybe Kitty was sick with an ear infection so she kept everybody up at night. Maybe the arguing & fighting between Terri & Jaine also kept the kids up.

Maybe, just maybe, that's why Kaine insisted he didn't notice anything wrong with Kyron. Maybe it's bc deep down he felt guilty & brushed it off. Lack of sleep & tons of stress can cause seizures. Seizures can come in the form of staring spells. ADHD is a sign and could be linked to seizures during sleep, after REM but before the 3rd stage which is when dreams occur, the focal area with memory.

Side note - My husband is my 2 oldest boys' stepfather. They are on his insurance & everything. My ex is one of my best friends. Our families are very close & share holidays together, not seperate. I know not everybody can relate to that but we all feel blessed in my family to rise above the stupid statistics. My boys call my husband Dad & their father Daddy. I could care less. My husband has the same rights as myself & my ex. My hubby takes them for physicals if they feel uncomfortable with me there, has been to the emergency room for stitches, broken legs, arm, clavicle, ankle...list goes on...but he's there just as much as myself or my ex! He's also coached everything my boys have been involved with, most of the time he dies signups without me even being present! So yeah, that's it in a nutshell.

BBM

See, I don't agree with this. The only reason she is on the radar publicly is because of what has been told by family members, oh, and the MFH plot, which she hasn't been prosecuted for. Why is that? We don't know if she is responsible. To assume that just because someone said she did it, would be an injustice, IMO.

I personally don't trust what LE has produced so far. I think they should be investigating themselves. They have done a poor piss job and have allowed politics to become involved in this case.

I think things are being covered up in this case, and who would have the capacity to do that?

[sassifrass]

Whom ever took Kyron out of that school knew what they were doing. They are intelligent enough to leave no evidence behind.

Hell, the FBI, according to a source, didn't even know all of the information that was sent to MCSO. PPS is trying to cover their ass and half true's are flowing out there.

I think there is more about this case then what people realize.

[Titch]

Sassifrass, you're right there. The only reason I keep Terri on the radar is bc of stuff uncovered last summer.

She appeared to be mixed into certain questionable things. I know about the 911 call referencing Sanchez and when the mfh plot came to light. It was on the police scanner on an insecure channel. I know about the emails that were sent in which Terri had contempt for Kyron. There was sooo much dysfunction in that house.

I have different questions now, especially since I've been gone from this thread for some time now. I'm only one person with an idea, so it doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, please let that be known. Anyway, here's my question: Have we the public been manipulated bc somebody wanted out of a failing marriage so only certain things were leaked to the media? Was there really a true mfh plot or could Rudy have been hired to just implicate that? Did he take & pass a poly? If Rudy was really being truthful, could Terri have only been facetious when she would have said it, ie maybe Kaine was being a tightwad so she said to a secretly hired groundsman man I wish he'd just die already.

I mean, it's not good to joke like that but how many of us are guilty of saying omg I could just wring your neck or I could strangle you then laugh about it bc we were only joking. I have an extremely sarcastic family, my gosh the things that come out of our mouths! I'm Italian & Indian with a tad of Irish. My hubby is polish with a couple other things. Trust me, he'll never win an argument unless I let him lmao! My boys are just like us, jokesters & pranksters! We're quick with our wit.

So I'm putting it out there, could Terri have been joking, if she even said it at all to Rudy? Could Rudy have gone to the cops innocently bc Kyron was missing, it became a high profile case, and he just wanted to do the right thing? could he have actually been hired to suggest this mfh plot to the cops? Could everything have just been all innocent but Kaine used it to his advantage bc he actually wanted put of his marriage but he didn't want to give up half of everything?

Or could it be somebody else altogether that's responsible for Ky's disappearance but we've all been breathing all this smoke that our brains aren't thinking clearly from lack of oxygen?

One thing I thought of since I came back here 2 hours ago, and keep in mind I was all anti Terri - Well why was the public brought into their entire divorce? Why not just do separation papers instead for the time being? As disgusting as I think it is to cheat & sext when you're married, I'm wondering if it really didn't matter & was beside the point bc there was swinging involved anyway. If both were involved in swinging, why was only one made to look bad due to sexting? Afaik, she was the dumb one gor putting it in photo. What if somebody did the same cheating but didn't text or take naked pics then send them to a lover? Maybe that person was just smarter about it. But that person used Terri's mistake to his greatest advantage.

I believe others should be looked at.

I'm looking into Gill like Sassi suggested but some of the Hormans are questionable to say the least.

Desiree & Tony are amazing people, not a single doubt in my mind.

[Titch]

Whom ever took Kyron out of that school knew what they were doing. They are intelligent enough to leave no evidence behind.

Hell, the FBI, according to a source, didn't even know all of the information that was sent to MCSO. PPS is trying to cover their ass and half true's are flowing out there.

I think there is more about this case then what people realize.

Me too. Plus PPS is bad news. Literally. There's fraud & bad things, illegal things that were associated with them. People held positions that weren't even qualified. Certain contractors brought in even if another company was more reputable & cheaper. The police are sketchy. Mayor is a fricken joke. Something's up for sure.

[Titch]

Unsecure not insecure.

Typing on an iPhone is tricky sometimes!

[Titch]

Kyron, where are you sweetie? Help us find you.
Please dear God, watch over this little innocent boy.
Send us a sign. Help us find him.

[sassifrass]

Kyron, where are you sweetie? Help us find you.
Please dear God, watch over this little innocent boy.
Send us a sign. Help us find him.

Amen to that! 

O/T: mchenry: Glad to see you again up there in the rafters. I've always appreciated and respected your thoughts. 

[sassifrass]

Each thread is 50 pages. I pray to God that kyron is found before this thread goes to another one.

[MuffyBee]

Each thread is 50 pages. I pray to God that kyron is found before this thread goes to another one.

It's interesting that you say that sassi, because each time I change a thread, I think about the missing person and wonder and hope that perhaps they will be found before the next thread change. I hope Kyron can be found soon.

[Tracygirl]

Sass this is just my opinion, from that description of Kyron he sounds as if he has a form of Autism. I have said this before and was shut down, but it sounds like it to me. A very mild case of autism or Aspergers can be very difficult to pin point and diagnose. It is also something very usual to find parents in denial about. Kids with mild autism/high functioning autism/aspergers are sometimes not even diagnosed until age 7 or 8. 1 out of 110 children have it, perhaps Kyron does.

[islandmonkey]

Omg. I decided to start at the beginning of this thread and already I have a headache.

I will be the first person to come out & say that I think Terri is responsible, ok ...but but but... I don't understand how it would be a problem for Terri to make a doctor's appt for Ky. She would not need anyone's permission. She raised Kyron with Kaine. Desiree is a wonderful mother that loves her son but Terri was married to Kaine and did everything for Kyron. Again, my hinky is on for Terri, but it is a fact all over our entire country that just bc Terri is "just a stepmom" it doesn't mean she can't take the kid to the doctor. Kyron lived with Kaine & Terri! She wasn't just a girlfriend for crying out loud. Her name, I'm sure, is on an emergency contact list at school as well as the doctor. Desiree & Kaine would be listed as parents that have 2 different addresses. Kyron spent alot of time with Terri. For all we know, she was probably the one that took him for his shots & physicals, sick visits, oh yeah and to the eye doctor too to get glasses. Just bc somebody is a step-parent doesn't mean they haven't the right to care for a child that lives with them, who they cook for, who they wash for, who they help do their homework, who they volunteer to help in classes & film plays & musicals...omg!

Terri was there all the time, more than anybody. I believe Kyron should have been with his mother, he was happiest with Desiree & Tony from everything I found. He loved his father dearly, as well, but there was alot of telling & screaming going on at his home.

I still think it boils to Terri not being able to take it anymore, that she felt she had all the responsibility, that she had to beg for spending money, that she spent alot of time on the computer on social networking sites & online games bc she was thoroughly unhappy & dissatisfied with herself for staying in yet another marriage that was failing. I think Kaine was manipulative & controlling but he didn't know any other way to be bc he felt like his hands were tied being the only bread winner. I feel as though there was a tug of war going on with regards to authority. Maybe Terri was pissed that her son moved out but Kaine could "keep" his son living there. Maybe Kitty was sick with an ear infection so she kept everybody up at night. Maybe the arguing & fighting between Terri & Jaine also kept the kids up.

Maybe, just maybe, that's why Kaine insisted he didn't notice anything wrong with Kyron. Maybe it's bc deep down he felt guilty & brushed it off. Lack of sleep & tons of stress can cause seizures. Seizures can come in the form of staring spells. ADHD is a sign and could be linked to seizures during sleep, after REM but before the 3rd stage which is when dreams occur, the focal area with memory.

Side note - My husband is my 2 oldest boys' stepfather. They are on his insurance & everything. My ex is one of my best friends. Our families are very close & share holidays together, not seperate. I know not everybody can relate to that but we all feel blessed in my family to rise above the stupid statistics. My boys call my husband Dad & their father Daddy. I could care less. My husband has the same rights as myself & my ex. My hubby takes them for physicals if they feel uncomfortable with me there, has been to the emergency room for stitches, broken legs, arm, clavicle, ankle...list goes on...but he's there just as much as myself or my ex! He's also coached everything my boys have been involved with, most of the time he dies signups without me even being present! So yeah, that's it in a nutshell.

BBM

See, I don't agree with this. The only reason she is on the radar publicly is because of what has been told by family members, oh, and the MFH plot, which she hasn't been prosecuted for. Why is that? We don't know if she is responsible. To assume that just because someone said she did it, would be an injustice, IMO.

I personally don't trust what LE has produced so far. I think they should be investigating themselves. They have done a poor piss job and have allowed politics to become involved in this case.

I think things are being covered up in this case, and who would have the capacity to do that?

  Sassi and Titch ~you just nailed EVERY intuition I felt wrt Kyron and what went on behind closed doors in the last few post you both made....I never had any facts but had that gut feeling you can't shake. I quit posting for a few reasons, one was time --I could not devote the time and effort you and so many others have due to my responsibilities of work/kids, and secondly WHEN I would post info about Desiree only knowing info about the home via Kaine and how that can be skewed a "certain" few would come out from nowhere and attack anyone who pointed this out. My oldest 2 children (stepkids) had disassociative disorder when I met them and they would stare into space and blank out as I called it, they were very very easily distracted and it concerned me enough to take them to a psychologist once they were cleared from any medical issues (yes, I took them to those appt's too). I knew the came from a tumultous marriage where their dad was the control freak, and their mom tried her best but was no match for his manipulative ways......in fact he got custody when every psychologist including the court appt GAL stated the kids should have stayed with the mother, but then again many times it's more about who can shell out the most cash that which parent is truly the best guardian, so over 300,000 later he won. I am almost 100% certain I know why they were disassociative after other facts came to life thru my son (with their dad).

I think Terri probably did notice this and Kaine may not have wanted to, many parents my ex included refuse to believe anything is ever wrong and are in massive denial, I feel this was the case here. I also think Kaine was the controlling one maybe to the point of extreme in the dysfunction from stmt he made, I also did not like when he would come out after Desiree was devastated from learning certain issues, specifically about Terri drinking all the time, leaving Kiara up at really late hrs while she was passed out on the couch, he had to know considering the DUI yrs before of he was in mass denial, or he lied.....I don't know which explanation at this point but I do feel he should have let Ky live with Desiree and Tony when he would get so upset that Terri had to call Desiree and have her talk to him to calm him down. Again, I am not saying Kaine was doing what my ex did, but my ex would never agree to that even if it was best for the kids because it meant giving up control. More than anything my heart breaks for Ky and specifically Desiree more than anyone because she never had the full picture of the reality in her baby's home, if she had I have not a doubt in my mind that she would have forced the issue in court.
Great points about the MFH plot and lack of prosecution and also the LE in the area. Again JMO and waiting for HK to come out an attack at any moment



Thanks again for really digging into this and not letting go...

[sassifrass]

Sass this is just my opinion, from that description of Kyron he sounds as if he has a form of Autism. I have said this before and was shut down, but it sounds like it to me. A very mild case of autism or Aspergers can be very difficult to pin point and diagnose. It is also something very usual to find parents in denial about. Kids with mild autism/high functioning autism/aspergers are sometimes not even diagnosed until age 7 or 8. 1 out of 110 children have it, perhaps Kyron does.

Tracygirl: Since Klaas gave the go ahead to post what ever we have, I want to comment on your post.

You mentioned Autism. Now I'm not saying Kyron was diagnosed with anything because that didn't happen. The "source" that I was talking with, specializes in Autism. That does NOT mean that they thought he may be suspect to having that.My first impression was ADD, but neither of us are clinical therapist'.

They spent, withing the time span of a few weeks before he went missing, not enough time that they could even come close to diagnosing him. They were NOT there for Kyron. It was more of a, "Kyron stands out because of his visibly noticed quietness".

This person was actually there for another student and noticed Kyron. Ms. Porter asked them if they had any suggestions to help him.

That's about the jist of it.

[sassifrass]

IM: I don't know what was going on behind closed doors with this family, but I tend to agree with you as far as Kaine being ignorant to anything regarding Kyron's noticeable "spacing out". Terri raised the flag and apparently, it may have been ignored.

I also agree that Kaine should have, at the very least, allowed Desiree to have a 'trial' custody of Kyron, and let him decide or have some kind of arrangement that would be best suited for Kyron.

I guess on the other hand you can't say "would a should a could a", because it just doesn't come into play right now. We can look back on we, as spectators, at what they should have done, but to be honest, we ALL make mistake's raising children. None of us are perfect.