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Author Topic: Kyron Horman, 7 years old, Portland, OR #43 5/23/11 - 4/11/12  (Read 391017 times)
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islandmonkey
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« Reply #540 on: July 17, 2011, 07:05:29 PM »

IM: I don't know what was going on behind closed doors with this family, but I tend to agree with you as far as Kaine being ignorant to anything regarding Kyron's noticeable "spacing out". Terri raised the flag and apparently, it may have been ignored.

I also agree that Kaine should have, at the very least, allowed Desiree to have a 'trial' custody of Kyron, and let him decide or have some kind of arrangement that would be best suited for Kyron.

I guess on the other hand you can't say "would a should a could a", because it just doesn't come into play right now. We can look back on we, as spectators, at what they should have done, but to be honest, we ALL make mistake's raising children. None of us are perfect. 

Agreed, and the what if's can eat you alive with guilt Sad     more than anything it upsets me that Desiree never had that chance, if she had we may have never known the name Kyron Horman....
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Tracygirl
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« Reply #541 on: July 17, 2011, 10:54:06 PM »

Sass this is just my opinion, from that description of Kyron he sounds as if he has a form of Autism. I have said this before and was shut down, but it sounds like it to me. A very mild case of autism or Aspergers can be very difficult to pin point and diagnose. It is also something very usual to find parents in denial about. Kids with mild autism/high functioning autism/aspergers are sometimes not even diagnosed until age 7 or 8. 1 out of 110 children have it, perhaps Kyron does.



Tracygirl: Since Klaas gave the go ahead to post what ever we have, I want to comment on your post.

You mentioned Autism. Now I'm not saying Kyron was diagnosed with anything because that didn't happen. The "source" that I was talking with, specializes in Autism. That does NOT mean that they thought he may be suspect to having that.My first impression was ADD, but neither of us are clinical therapist'.

They spent, withing the time span of a few weeks before he went missing, not enough time that they could even come close to diagnosing him. They were NOT there for Kyron. It was more of a, "Kyron stands out because of his visibly noticed quietness".

This person was actually there for another student and noticed Kyron. Ms. Porter asked them if they had any suggestions to help him.

That's about the jist of it.

This does not surprise me at all Sass. I wonder if Ms Porter spoke to Terri about this and this is why Terri made the appointment for Kyron? I am not sure if you know this or not, if you do then please don't feel as though I am trying to be a know it all. ADD/ADHD is often times a subdiagnosis of autism. Its symptoms are within the autism symptoms and diagnosis. I don't recall reading Kyron was impulsive, hyperactive, do you know if he had that?

There have been several things though which I have read which made me wonder about Autism. First the spacing out, he was also said to be shy and quiet and sometimes wandered. Also there is a pic of Kyron laying on a bean bag and the way his hands are just reminded of other children I have seen. I don't know, just a feeling I have had. Maybe when you live with it everyday as I do with my son it makes you more sensitive to it.
But if this is all the case with the teacher asking someone to give an opinion it adds another layer. I have to say though, without parental consent not sure it Ms Portor can legally ask the person for their opinion especially if the person was not there for Kyron but another child. Interesting....
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labubske
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« Reply #542 on: July 17, 2011, 11:29:03 PM »

My computer is running very slow for some reason...so it's taking me a lot longer than I thought that it would.  Post soon.  Thinking of you Kyron!
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« Reply #543 on: July 17, 2011, 11:51:46 PM »

TG: Ms. Porter was only try to help. She wasn't asking for a professional diagnosis, and the source wasn't giving one. Kyron stood out because he was always so quite and Ms. Porter was just asking if there was something she could do to aid him.

I know about ADD. My stepson has it. Although he is grown up now and much better, in the early years it was tough to keep his attention span where it should be. After numerous conferences with his teachers, the therapist' wanted to put him on ritalin. We didn't like the way he was reacting to it so we decided to go with a homeopathic treatment, which worked much better.

I don't think anyone here can diagnose or state factually why Kyron was noticeably quiet. We don't have that right. The point I was trying to make in that post was that perhaps both parents, Kaine and Terri, were not on the same page and Desiree probably only knew what Kaine told her wrt the Horman house prior to Kyron going missing.
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sassifrass
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Where are you Kyron?


« Reply #544 on: July 17, 2011, 11:52:41 PM »

My computer is running very slow for some reason...so it's taking me a lot longer than I thought that it would.  Post soon.  Thinking of you Kyron!

Maybe you should give it a shot of caffeine! 

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« Reply #545 on: July 18, 2011, 07:33:25 AM »

TG, it was me (and I think Bearlythere) who noticed Ky's hands.  I got shot down pretty quick even though I had a premie w/every known prob to man and a therapist for it.  Ky's hands look like he had some fine motor problems and I also wondered about his eyesight...was he early?  Did he have problems related to DY's med condition?  I totally agree with whomever said it's possible KH was very ignorant to what went on with his child and in his home and I believe TH took care of everything!  I agree with Ms. Porter's concern.  I'm watching early morn Dr. Phil who is showing an adoptive Mom with a child w/emotional and physical handicaps and Mom wants to send her back in for adoption due to all the problems and wondering if TH came to resent Kyron because more and more was coming to light about him developmental wise?  Did Kaine brush her off and refuse to help and it result in marital problems?  As far as I can tell she (TH) pretty much helped and worked with Kyron during his early years.  Let me say that all of Ky's noticeable problems can be normal occurances but if you add all together it can point to some type of disability.  This is all MOO and I am only judging from the outside and what I have read.
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Tracygirl
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« Reply #546 on: July 18, 2011, 05:28:22 PM »

TG: Ms. Porter was only try to help. She wasn't asking for a professional diagnosis, and the source wasn't giving one. Kyron stood out because he was always so quite and Ms. Porter was just asking if there was something she could do to aid him.

I know about ADD. My stepson has it. Although he is grown up now and much better, in the early years it was tough to keep his attention span where it should be. After numerous conferences with his teachers, the therapist' wanted to put him on ritalin. We didn't like the way he was reacting to it so we decided to go with a homeopathic treatment, which worked much better.

I don't think anyone here can diagnose or state factually why Kyron was noticeably quiet. We don't have that right. The point I was trying to make in that post was that perhaps both parents, Kaine and Terri, were not on the same page and Desiree probably only knew what Kaine told her wrt the Horman house prior to Kyron going missing.

Actually legally Ms Porter didn't have the right to inquire of the professional nor could the professional advise her without parental consent anything about Kyron or what could help him. The reason I brought this up was not to put her down but it made me wonder if this was her last resort. Was she trying throughout the year to get parental consent and was turned down?

As I said, your post was an added layer to something I had considered and was wondering about. Was Kyron suspected as having ASD? I have heard before of a child being screened for focal seizures as a way to rule it out during an evaluation of ASD, most times it is the first thing checked. My son was checked for seizure activity. At the age of 4 he had an MRI. It is common practice. I have to say, I found it odd Kaine had mentioned the possible seizures as being false, something his son didn't suffer from. It was odd because Kyron had not been checked for it. It just sounded to me as his being in denial, something I have heard over and over again, especially from fathers.

What I meant about ADD/ADHD was Within autism are the traits of ADD/ADHD. I too have known children with ADHD, being quiet is not usually the problem however that is why I asked if you knew if Kyron had a problem with hyperactivity, lack of concentration or easily distracted or impulse control. Not trying to diagnose anyone, but just wondering if there are common traits.

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Tracygirl
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« Reply #547 on: July 18, 2011, 05:42:42 PM »

TG, it was me (and I think Bearlythere) who noticed Ky's hands.  I got shot down pretty quick even though I had a premie w/every known prob to man and a therapist for it.  Ky's hands look like he had some fine motor problems and I also wondered about his eyesight...was he early?  Did he have problems related to DY's med condition?  I totally agree with whomever said it's possible KH was very ignorant to what went on with his child and in his home and I believe TH took care of everything!  I agree with Ms. Porter's concern.  I'm watching early morn Dr. Phil who is showing an adoptive Mom with a child w/emotional and physical handicaps and Mom wants to send her back in for adoption due to all the problems and wondering if TH came to resent Kyron because more and more was coming to light about him developmental wise?  Did Kaine brush her off and refuse to help and it result in marital problems?  As far as I can tell she (TH) pretty much helped and worked with Kyron during his early years.  Let me say that all of Ky's noticeable problems can be normal occurances but if you add all together it can point to some type of disability.  This is all MOO and I am only judging from the outside and what I have read.

What I think it odd is why at the end of the year was Ms Porter asking how to help Kyron? I am thinking her concern didn't start in May but much earlier then that. Why  would a teacher reach out to a professional who is there for another kid to ask what she can do to help a student she was set to have in her class for another month? Either Kyron quietness was something new or she had hit a wall of some kind. It can be very frustrating for a teacher who wants to help but the parents are not open to it and the administration is looking for any reason to deny services. I wish we can find out if this is what Ms Porter was facing.
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monchichi
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« Reply #548 on: July 18, 2011, 06:06:55 PM »

TG, it was me (and I think Bearlythere) who noticed Ky's hands.  I got shot down pretty quick even though I had a premie w/every known prob to man and a therapist for it.  Ky's hands look like he had some fine motor problems and I also wondered about his eyesight...was he early?  Did he have problems related to DY's med condition?  I totally agree with whomever said it's possible KH was very ignorant to what went on with his child and in his home and I believe TH took care of everything!  I agree with Ms. Porter's concern.  I'm watching early morn Dr. Phil who is showing an adoptive Mom with a child w/emotional and physical handicaps and Mom wants to send her back in for adoption due to all the problems and wondering if TH came to resent Kyron because more and more was coming to light about him developmental wise?  Did Kaine brush her off and refuse to help and it result in marital problems?  As far as I can tell she (TH) pretty much helped and worked with Kyron during his early years.  Let me say that all of Ky's noticeable problems can be normal occurances but if you add all together it can point to some type of disability.  This is all MOO and I am only judging from the outside and what I have read.

What I think it odd is why at the end of the year was Ms Porter asking how to help Kyron? I am thinking her concern didn't start in May but much earlier then that. Why  would a teacher reach out to a professional who is there for another kid to ask what she can do to help a student she was set to have in her class for another month? Either Kyron quietness was something new or she had hit a wall of some kind. It can be very frustrating for a teacher who wants to help but the parents are not open to it and the administration is looking for any reason to deny services. I wish we can find out if this is what Ms Porter was facing.

What I gathered, from Sassi's post, was that this person was there for another child and noticed Kyron.  I didn't think Ms. Porter reached out to this person to evaluate Kyron in any way, but when this other person noticed Ky, Ms. Porter then asked what she could do to help him?  I think it would be an automatic response to ask what she could do, whether the end of the year or not.
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sassifrass
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« Reply #549 on: July 18, 2011, 07:40:43 PM »

TG, it was me (and I think Bearlythere) who noticed Ky's hands.  I got shot down pretty quick even though I had a premie w/every known prob to man and a therapist for it.  Ky's hands look like he had some fine motor problems and I also wondered about his eyesight...was he early?  Did he have problems related to DY's med condition?  I totally agree with whomever said it's possible KH was very ignorant to what went on with his child and in his home and I believe TH took care of everything!  I agree with Ms. Porter's concern.  I'm watching early morn Dr. Phil who is showing an adoptive Mom with a child w/emotional and physical handicaps and Mom wants to send her back in for adoption due to all the problems and wondering if TH came to resent Kyron because more and more was coming to light about him developmental wise?  Did Kaine brush her off and refuse to help and it result in marital problems?  As far as I can tell she (TH) pretty much helped and worked with Kyron during his early years.  Let me say that all of Ky's noticeable problems can be normal occurances but if you add all together it can point to some type of disability.  This is all MOO and I am only judging from the outside and what I have read.

What I think it odd is why at the end of the year was Ms Porter asking how to help Kyron? I am thinking her concern didn't start in May but much earlier then that. Why  would a teacher reach out to a professional who is there for another kid to ask what she can do to help a student she was set to have in her class for another month? Either Kyron quietness was something new or she had hit a wall of some kind. It can be very frustrating for a teacher who wants to help but the parents are not open to it and the administration is looking for any reason to deny services. I wish we can find out if this is what Ms Porter was facing.

What I gathered, from Sassi's post, was that this person was there for another child and noticed Kyron.  I didn't think Ms. Porter reached out to this person to evaluate Kyron in any way, but when this other person noticed Ky, Ms. Porter then asked what she could do to help him?  I think it would be an automatic response to ask what she could do, whether the end of the year or not.

monchichi: You are absolutely spot on and I thank you for that.  an angelic monkey

The purpose of that post was to put aside the rumors of Kyron's demeanor. His personality, so to speak. I was questioning whether the statements made in the MSM were actually true.

I've been pretty sick lately and don't have a lot of energy to go into detailed explanations or defensive tactics to justify what I posted, or the validity of it. It is what it is, and if Klaas didn't think it was worthy of posting, I never would have posted it.
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« Reply #550 on: July 18, 2011, 08:56:07 PM »

Sass I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. For some reason you always take what I post wrong or personally. Never have I asked you to validate your post. I am commenting on it, posting about it, gave my opinion on it. I find the information interesting.

Again I think it is interesting due to the fact it is illegal for a teacher to discuss a student in the class with another person, whether that be another parent, therapist, school employee or anyone unless the parent has given permission to do so. Ms Porter, even if approached by a parent, therapist, or whoever, could not comment on the student, although she could speak to the principal or her supervisor. That is the law. However, if she did it may show she was at her wits end trying to help this child and going conventional ways didn't work.  

I am not sure who asked first whether it was her or this other person about Kyron but it is an usual situation the conversation happened in the first place. I can't imagine a person asking about another student when there for another student. It is just an unusual conversation. The proper/legal coarse of action would be the teacher contacts the parents in writing either requesting a meeting to discuss problems at school or for the letter to outline the problem. A plan of action would most likely be presented such as an sort of behavior plan, tracking of behaviors etc...All of this is done with the parents consent.

So, isn't it curious Ms Porter went the route she did?  Surly she would know the laws covering this. I can understand her asking, as a human I can understand, however, to ask for help in this way is unusual even if it is a "hey btw he is quiet any ideas how to get him out of his shell?" It is just not how its done normally. That is my point, not putting anyone down, I find it curious as to why is all.

 
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« Reply #551 on: July 18, 2011, 11:21:35 PM »

TG I believe you and I both have a disabled (at one time or in some way still)child.  Here in FL I can tell you it is not illegal nor a HIPPA violation for a teacher to consult whomever she feels (within her district ability) is needed to further that childs learning ability.  I have had the same thing happen to me.  I begged and begged one of the old PT's in my son's past to have an OT consult cause I was concerned about his hands and they told me I was wrong well another OT seeing another child in the room happen to be watching her patient playing with my Son and asked why she wasn't seeing him for his Fine Motor Coord. defecit?  I appreciated that more than you know.  I can see TH being in her own world at that time and not wanting to deal w/Kyron anymore and KH just being a man saying there isn't anything wrong with my Son or he didn't even know yet!  Things may be diff in CA, I don't know.  Anyhoo, just thought I'd ad my experience in the mix.  Have a good night, y'all!
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Tracygirl
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« Reply #552 on: July 19, 2011, 02:39:49 AM »

With all due respect, I believe it to be illegal for a teacher to ask for advice or respond to any questions about a student in her classroom if that said student is not receiving therapies from that person without first notifying the parents. Kyron, as far as we know, was not dx'ed with anything nor was he being educated under an IEP as your son was or I am assuming he was. If the teacher was speaking in general terms such as, "what advice would you give regarding helping students come out of their shell?" But to specifically speak directly about Kyron to someone not authorized to help or offer suggestions or who has not had the chance to work with him or evaluate him, in my opinion as an advocate, I would stand behind the notion it is not legal and if asked I would advice the parents to be included in the decision of how to help their child as I suspect you were included in the making of the OT goals. Who knows though, perhaps she did tell the parents she was seeking advice from this autism specialist who was in the classroom to help this other student? We don't know. Did she notify them and if so, what was the outcome?

as I have said and it really is my main point, if she has tried to reach out to the parents to only be turned down or were they receptive. I can understand her doing this out of desperation to help her student if she kept hitting a stone wall. Is this what happened?  I would love to know if she had tried to reach out to Kyrons parents and what happened with that? Did they back her up or did they turn her down? I would suspect she did reach out and this was not her first attempt, in May, to help Kyron when she had him for months prior.

I don't know about Terri, seemed she made an appointment for Kyron so perhaps she was trying to help him? Or perhaps she was sick of it all and got rid of him.  Desiree I think was kept in the dark about a lot of things, just have that feeling from things she has said. Kaine to me strikes me as a father who would struggle with the concept of perhaps there is a reason to be concerned. Not putting him down but to me he seems like if it not right there in front of him and obvious, he doesn't see it. He needs concrete facts not speculations.

As always, just my 2 cents
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melisb
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« Reply #553 on: July 19, 2011, 07:46:41 AM »

I understand completely TG what you are saying and I did call my school board friend and she said as long as those people work within that school or a discipline hired by the county to handle their therapies, etc., then it is within their right as a teacher to consult one another if they suspect a problem and then present it to the parent with or without a standing IEP.  That is only in FL, in my area, that I can vouch for.  No, a teacher may not speak to an outsider or other parent about any child.   
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« Reply #554 on: July 19, 2011, 05:52:02 PM »

I think a school board person would see things differently then an advocate so perhaps we are both right and this has been the foundations of many of debates? My point, which honestly is not that important is the teacher should have gone about it differently so it was specific to Kyron. Kyron doesn't have a dx, he has not been provided an IEP, the behavior plan from what we have been told was classroom wide and not specific to Kyron. In my opinion a therapist would be flying blind to just watch a child from a distance and offering advice. Although well meaning, it is not a proper evaluation and would not provide proper intervention. Lets say this person offered the advise to have Kyron be promted to listen to adults at the school. I recall Desiree and Kaine both saying they had to have a talk with Kyron about this. Also what if this is where Terri learned about monitoring the behavior plan the teacher had in place and to give consequences for anything less then green but the therapist didn't mean to punish him for it by placing him in the room but rather he couldn't earn a prize or something he loves. I know all of this sounds far fetched but these are examples of why behavior modification goals are written and monitored by a team of people. So yes can a teacher say hey any advice for this student? But there is a legal formula in place to protect the integrity of the suggestions. Anyhow my first thought when I first read Sass's post was had Ms Porter tried prior to get help for Kyron and what was the outcome of it. was this a last effort to try to help Kyron or was she just realizing something was not right? Not saying it was, just curious as the history of it all.    

I really would love to know if the teacher had these concerns prior to the autism specialist visiting her classroom and if she reached out to the parents and were the parents receptive or not. For all we know Ms Porter had told Terri or Kaine she asked this persons advise, we don't know.

Is it interesting timing to anyone that this all happened just 2 weeks prior to Kyron going missing? As well as an up coming dr's appointment about possible seizure activity? Terri volunteered in the classroom a lot from what we had been told. Terri also didn't care for Ms Porter from what we have been told. Does that have anything to do with Ms Porters concerns over Kyron being quiet etc?
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cw618
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« Reply #555 on: July 19, 2011, 06:02:19 PM »

if kyron had problems in school,BC of a disability he may have had one of these
and i think the HEPPA laws cover it,so unless a fam member says something,we prob
will never know for sure

What's an IEP?
http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/learning/iep.html

IEPs and Legal Rights
http://www.ped-onc.org/cfissues/backtoschool/iep.html
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goodmorn,goodnite, got to go, as always its been wonderful, talking with you, and most of all have a great day, and dont forget to smile
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Where are you Kyron?


« Reply #556 on: July 19, 2011, 07:06:53 PM »

I gotta tell ya Monkeys. I'm at a dead lock right now. I am waiting on some information but I can't go with it unless it's been checked out. I'm not giving up, so please don't think that's what I'm doing. I just need more info, and it's coming at a snails pace.

I wouldn't concentrate too much on the therapist post. It was put out there to get a clear understanding of Kyron's personality as seen by people not within the family group. It was just for knowledge and it doesn't help with finding out who made him go poof.

Does anyone remember the name Aleshire, or something like that? I received something referenced to that name. Monkeys?
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« Reply #557 on: July 20, 2011, 01:10:09 AM »

I gotta tell ya Monkeys. I'm at a dead lock right now. I am waiting on some information but I can't go with it unless it's been checked out. I'm not giving up, so please don't think that's what I'm doing. I just need more info, and it's coming at a snails pace.

I wouldn't concentrate too much on the therapist post. It was put out there to get a clear understanding of Kyron's personality as seen by people not within the family group. It was just for knowledge and it doesn't help with finding out who made him go poof.

Does anyone remember the name Aleshire, or something like that? I received something referenced to that name. Monkeys?


http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/multnomah_county_shericomb_thr/4053/comments-newest-12.html        In the comment section page 12 there is a mention about a friend of Terri who received a subpoena to testify at the grand jury. Her name is Chelsea Aleshire. Never seen this name mentioned before.
Terri Horman is friends on Facebook with a Chelsea Aleshire (I think she worked at the 24 hour fitness Terri and Kaine go to or knows or is friends with people that work there.) She posts a sympathetic message on Terri’s Facebook page shortly after Kyron goes missing. (It’s on the raw view of Terri’s page that I’ve seen floating around on different websites)

Chelsea Aleshire is engaged to a Roland Salas according to her Facbook page.

Roland Salas is friends with a “Casey 'Spangler' Miramontes” on Facebook that has a very private Facebook page. (With Kyron’s missing poster stuff on it)

Here is Casey’s page on Facebook

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1210297348
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« Reply #558 on: July 20, 2011, 02:26:18 AM »

Keep up the good work Monkeys, especially sassifrass.  Because of your hard work, Kyron is not forgotten.  Bless you.

Video--

http://www.kptv.com/story/15091979/kyron-horman-search-featured-at-event
Kyron Horman search featured at event
Posted: Jul 15, 2011 11:44 PM CDT
Updated: Jul 15, 2011 11:49 PM CDT

Kyron Horman disappeared more than a year ago, but his family is not giving up on the search for the boy.

Kaine Horman set up a table tonight at the "Wood Village Nite Out" event. It featured fliers, shirts and buttons with his son's photo on them.

Horman handed them out during the event, hoping it will create more leads in the search for his son.

 ::snipping2::
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« Reply #559 on: July 20, 2011, 05:00:48 PM »

I gotta tell ya Monkeys. I'm at a dead lock right now. I am waiting on some information but I can't go with it unless it's been checked out. I'm not giving up, so please don't think that's what I'm doing. I just need more info, and it's coming at a snails pace.

I wouldn't concentrate too much on the therapist post. It was put out there to get a clear understanding of Kyron's personality as seen by people not within the family group. It was just for knowledge and it doesn't help with finding out who made him go poof.

Does anyone remember the name Aleshire, or something like that? I received something referenced to that name. Monkeys?


We have no idea if it has anything to do with it or not as we don't know what happened to him. I guess I am the only one who is seeing beyond the question Ms Porter posed? In my opinion, it does give us an insight into something which has been kept out of the publics eye.
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