Lively Case Discussion #545 11/17 - 11/19/2006

[Tylergal]

Thanks, Leslie, for that info.

San, I agree.  Everytime I see the gene poolage in Aruba, I know that Natale was doomed when she arrived there to een speak to them.

I think they are all related.  Inbreeding.  This would explain many things.  Occasionally, someone like Julie Renfroe comes along and adds a new twist, without any improvement to society overall.

I guess on Paradise Island, the gene pool has no "stopper" in the bottom and then they get interlopers who are of the same mindset.

[LilPuma]

Expatica (NL) Commentary:  
Why let sex offenders walk free?
Sex offenders in the Netherlands are walking the streets unpunished.

Of the 15,000 rapes, indecent assaults and so-called "lewd incidents" reported each year, just 1,400 convictions are made, the Justice Ministry's research institute said this week.

The public prosecutor handles only 2,700 cases every year, bringing 63 percent of these to court. In 15 percent of these cases, the suspect is acquitted, compared with 4 percent in general crimes.

The gamble is abundantly clear: rape and sexually assault at will — you are likely to escape conviction.

And what's more, efforts to combat sex abuse get barely a mention in the Dutch government's agenda, given its fixation on terrorism and Islamic extremism. The abused and vulnerable are left abandoned.

Now it's time the tide changed. But how do we fight back?

The article continues and ends with the statement:  Stop the rapist young.  
http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=16849

[nonesuche]

Good morning all-

LilPuma - Anna has been pointing out that info on the Dutch for months and months, so has tyler - glad to see you were able to evidence it also. I can still remember everytime similar stats were posted that the Dutch posters here would fling hissy fits   Their stats on human trafficking of females, particularly african females recently along with their serious problem with incest, are all swept under the rug.

[Kat_Gram]

This is the translation I received back from a person certified in Spanish to translate legal documents for the U.S. Government.  I gave no clue as to what I expected it to say.

--------

Pretty garbled, but it may say this:

Reverie reveals more than 3 (cuadrilla=squad or gang, so maybe gangsters?)
raped and buried Natalee.


>Subject: Can you give exact translation??
>Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 14:07:01 -0600
>
>Just posted on the front page by Espionage:
>
>Reverie reveals more than tres
>Cuadriya violacion and buried Natalee
>
>
>We are having particular problems with Cuadriya as it is not found in
>Spanish/English dictionary.  Might be Papiamento?
>
>Thanks,

TY Anna.

[Kat_Gram]

Tyler, I totally 100 % agree with you ! !
And now, I am afraid... what is up with this   !  

[Kat_Gram]

The last name Posner....This is a common name in some parts of the world.
I went to school with Posners and the Posner families here are
doctors lawyers and such.
Mike must have been found by the side of the road.

[Peaches]

Lorenzo's leg is bent in the picture that is what is confusing everyone.  He is taking a step.  JMO.

the brief case that is definitely not brief

Good morning.  Reading to catch up.  Fantasy Football is about to overtake the computer.

[San]

N.Y. schools try to put brakes on spring break
Letter to parents questions tradition of Caribbean party

Ralph Gardner Jr., New York Times

Sunday, November 19, 2006

This time of year, seniors at New York's elite high schools can glimpse the finish line off in the distance. They have taken the SATs for the last time. Their personal essays sing. And, with luck, they have sent their early-admission applications in on time. All that remains is to keep up their GPAs, pray that their first-choice school recognizes their singularity -- and begin planning for spring break.

Almost as entrenched as SAT tutors or senior prom, spring break has become a tradition for seniors at Manhattan's private schools and a few affluent public schools in the New York suburbs. It involves gathering with several hundred other overachievers for a week or more in the Bahamas or Mexico, unsupervised but for the presence of their fellow travelers in calculus or advanced bio. In other words, not supervised at all.

But this year the heads of seven Manhattan private schools sent a letter to parents of seniors expressing misgivings about the spring trips because of the vulnerability of adolescents under the influence of alcohol. The letter encouraged parents to find alternative destinations, with a responsible adult as a chaperone, before their children reserved rooms or bought nonrefundable airline tickets.

"These are not school-sponsored events, nor are they a 'tradition' that we endorse," the heads of Brearley, Browning, Chapin, Collegiate, Dalton, Nightingale-Bamford and Spence wrote in the letter, which went out in the last two weeks. "We urge you to say no to any unsupervised trips of this nature before planning starts."

Needless to say, the students are not happy. Many see the trips as a reward for slogging through the stressful college admissions process.

All these students "have worked so hard to get into good colleges," said Quincy Kevan, a Nightingale-Bamford graduate, recalling her trip with about 25 classmates to the Bahamas last spring. "It's a reward and a rite of passage to be able to go on spring break and party for a week."

And some parents -- who, after all, are supplying their credit cards so their children can frolic in the tropics with their peers -- are sympathetic.

"A part of me thinks these kids get so much and are so entitled," said Dr. Carlin Vickery, the mother of a Spence senior. "But the whole college process is so toxic you almost feel you want to do something nice for them."

The tradition of high schoolers congregating en masse without teacher or parent supervision at Caribbean resorts is hardly universal. "It is not a phenomenon in other parts of the country," said Dorothy A. Hutcheson, the head of Nightingale-Bamford. She added that when she asks other educators about it, "they look at me as if I'm crazy that this is a regular occurrence in New York City."

Piggybacking on the college spring-break tradition, the practice began among private-school seniors around a decade ago, the school heads said, a consequence of the teenagers' urge to let off steam after the college race was done, their family's good financial fortune and childhoods where travel to exotic locales had become second nature.

Most private schools also schedule spring break at the same time, allowing students from various schools to vacation together. This year it is the last week of March and the first week of April. For suburban public schools, it often varies.

Even though most hotels require all guests to be accompanied by someone 21 or older, they rarely enforce this, students said, and the young guests further evade the rule by having their parents make the reservations. But the seniors insist it is not quite "Girls Gone Wild," even if the occasional wet T-shirt contest seems all but inevitable.

Kevan, now a freshman at Northwestern, said that approximately half the students in her grade, most 17 or 18 years old, made the trip this year, staying three or four to a room at Breezes, an all-inclusive resort in the Bahamas. "I think every person I knew from New York was in Nassau," she said. "Everyone who goes out in New York went to spring break."

She said they spent their days tanning, swimming and playing volleyball, and their nights dancing and drinking, of course in moderation. The only hospital visit she was able to recall involved not liquor but a volleyball-related injury that required stitches. "It's very easy to buy alcohol and purchase a fake ID in New York," she said. "People learned early on how to carry themselves."

Ross Stackhouse, a freshman at Brown who graduated from the Fieldston School in New York and also attended spring break in the Bahamas this year, said that friends who remained in New York probably drank at least as much as those who traveled to the Caribbean. In fact, he said, he found the vacation slightly disappointing.

"I didn't have a crazy time," he said. "I'd sort of gotten over that innate need to always fit in. I'd probably have been wiser to do something useful, like going skiing. It's an excuse for a bunch of horny high schoolers to get together and rub their bodies against each other for a week."

It's partly such descriptions and the specter of Natalee Holloway, the Alabama teenager who vanished in Aruba in 2005 -- on a school-sanctioned and supervised senior trip -- that sparked the letter to parents. "Young people cannot think clearly when alcohol is involved and your children are particularly vulnerable in such settings," the letter said. "We have heard enough disturbing and tragic stories of students being harmed on these trips."

Hutcheson of Nightingale-Bamford said the heads were not thinking of any specific incidents related to their own students when they wrote the letter. But the letter was a way of lending parents moral support. "I think it's helpful if parents have something they can lean on and say no," she said. "Parents need safety in numbers."

Alec Barrett, the president of the student body at Dalton, said that when the letter arrived at homes, his classmates were worried their parents would use it as an excuse to veto their vacation plans. "There was some concern this would make parents more attuned or vigilant than they have been in the past," he said.

But, he said, that does not seem to be the case, at least among his friends' parents. "This year there are people who just have this willingness to let their kids go," he said. "I don't think a letter is going to change these people's minds. But it will hopefully make some of those parents take precautions."

One increasingly popular precaution, as mortifying to the typical adolescent as it may sound, is for parents to tag along on spring break. Vickery said she is considering renting a house on the same island where her daughter and her friends are planning to spend their vacation. "I've thought, at least if we're on the island, there's somebody they can call."

At Bronxville High School in Bronxville, N.Y., traveling with your child to spring break in the Bahamas has actually become something of a tradition, with the parents staying at a nearby resort. Marty Murrer, who took the trip two years ago with his son, said that supervised spring break started several years ago after the youngsters proved inadequate at supervising themselves.

"They had had experiences where the kids went down and things got out of hand," he said. "Excessive drinking and behavior that was way beyond what was acceptable."

He and his wife socialized with about 20 of their own friends who traveled to the Caribbean with them. "In a community like Bronxville there's a lot of close relations among the parents," he said. "There's a lot of common values. It was a great time."

Hutcheson hopes the letter the schools sent out will prompt parents of city students to make similar arrangements. "Nobody's trying to be the Grinch who stole spring break," she said.

[AZLady]

The last name Posner....This is a common name in some parts of the world.
I went to school with Posners and the Posner families here are
doctors lawyers and such.
Mike must have been found by the side of the road.

By the side of a Chicago road, lying in the muck of the Mafia, no doubt.  I believe Michael Posner was sent to Aruba to establish a gambling/money laundering/drug-running business by the Mafia after he was released from federal prison.  Since he did time in a well-publicized murder and was exposed as a bookie, of sorts, he could not operate openly in the Chicago area anymore.  So, they sent him overseas to continue the operation there.  I really think the names are a coincidence.  I don't think he is related to the Aruban Posners.

[AZLady]

Our colleges in Arizona sent out a similar letter warning our students not to travel to Mexico for spring break last March due to the dangers.  I really think these spring break drunken orgies have waned in popularity lately.  Many young people have told me that they would not go to Mexico during spring break anymore as it is too dangerous and their peers act too stupidly.  They prefer to enjoy the beaches of Rocky Point at other times of the year when the spring break masses are not there.  They are wising up.

[AZLady]

Everyone must be eating Sunday dinner and watching football.  I'll check back in later and maybe someone will want to talk.  See ya!

[Anna]

Expatica (NL) Commentary:  
Why let sex offenders walk free?
Sex offenders in the Netherlands are walking the streets unpunished.

Of the 15,000 rapes, indecent assaults and so-called "lewd incidents" reported each year, just 1,400 convictions are made, the Justice Ministry's research institute said this week.

The public prosecutor handles only 2,700 cases every year, bringing 63 percent of these to court. In 15 percent of these cases, the suspect is acquitted, compared with 4 percent in general crimes.

The gamble is abundantly clear: rape and sexually assault at will — you are likely to escape conviction.

And what's more, efforts to combat sex abuse get barely a mention in the Dutch government's agenda, given its fixation on terrorism and Islamic extremism. The abused and vulnerable are left abandoned.

Now it's time the tide changed. But how do we fight back?

The article continues and ends with the statement:  Stop the rapist young.  
http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=16849

It's an on-going situation in The Netherlands who have set women's rights back a hundred years with their legalized porn and prostitution and sleaze:

24 May 2006
Jail time cut in rape, animal porn case  

An appeals court in Arnhem imposed sentences of seven years on the two main defendants in the Kraggenburger rape and animal porn case. Belgian P.M. and E van C., a resident of the Dutch town of Almere, were jailed for 14 and 10 years by the trial court in Lelystad for kidnapping three African refugees in Brussels. The women were subjected to rape and sexual assault in a shed in the Dutch town of Kraggenburger in April 2004. The women were beaten and forced to have sex with Rottweiler dogs for the purposes of a pornographic video. It was also alleged the gang was planning to make a 'snuff movie', in which a victim was to be killed during sexual activities. The women managed to escape and raise the alarm.

 

http://tinyurl.com/yyne6r


---------

Deepak came with two dogs in the car.

I'm not saying this is what happened to Natalee but just putting on notice that we are aware of this sort of thing happening just in case that's what they had in mind or just to let some people know that by lying, we may think even worse of them than actually happened.  And we did see the links on Joran's girlfriend's website to the porn.

Sometimes it's better to tell the truth than to allow speculation.  And I put nothing past this gang of thugs that are allowed to run like a pack of animals themselves all over that island doing this twenty times before.

Just want any interested to know we are watching and thinking and I personally think anybody who would lie when another's life is in the balance would do just about anything.  This is how low I think they are and until justice is rendered in Natalee's disappearance I shall continue to give them the benefit of the doubt as they did her, not at all.  I will think the very worst I can logically muster and act on that as I have nothing to deter my doing so.  

Why lie if there is not something horrendous to hide?  They must really have something awful to hide.  I think the worst of them.  

I can't think of any reason to give them a break.  Look how they have treated Beth and the rest of Natalee's family?  What break did they give her or Natalee?  

 

[San]

The last name Posner....This is a common name in some parts of the world.
I went to school with Posners and the Posner families here are
doctors lawyers and such.
Mike must have been found by the side of the road.

By the side of a Chicago road, lying in the muck of the Mafia, no doubt.  I believe Michael Posner was sent to Aruba to establish a gambling/money laundering/drug-running business by the Mafia after he was released from federal prison.  Since he did time in a well-publicized murder and was exposed as a bookie, of sorts, he could not operate openly in the Chicago area anymore.  So, they sent him overseas to continue the operation there.  I really think the names are a coincidence.  I don't think he is related to the Aruban Posners.

Below is an old article about Posner.  It is from October 17, 1987.  Notice the name in the title.

Prosecutors:

Club owners
were "pimps"

BY KATHY SCHAEFFER
Daily Herald Staff Writer

Federal prosecutors charged Friday
that the owners of the Roman
House nude dance club were "glorified
pimps" who ran a prostitution
business for 10 years, while a defense
attorney countered that the
owners actually tried to prohibit sex
between employees and customers.
In closing arguments after the
two-week trial of Michael Posner
and Sidney Muscovsky Friday, prosecutors
Virginia Junewicz and
Mark Prosperi asked the jury to find
Posner, 44, of Riverwoods, and
Muscovsky, 55, of Glenview, guilty
of racketeering, mail fraud and using
interstate facilities for prostitution
at the nude dancing club.
"You saw at least 20 different employees
who participated in or saw
sex going on in the back (of the
Roman House). Sidney Muscovsky
and Michael Posner cannot deny
they didn't know what was going
on," Junewicz said, reminding jurors
of previous testimony.
The two were indicted in January
in the Operation Safe Bet undercover
probe of vice in the suburbs.
The prosecutors say the evidence
showed that between 1975 and 1984,
Posner and Muscovsky hired nude
dancers who also -"hustled" male
customers by ,- persuading them •, to
buy numerous $82.50 bottles off. a
non-alcoholic drink. In return, the
scantily clad women would sit with
the' customers, hinting that they
could have sex with them in the back
room of the club if they continued
buying bottles, prosecutors charged.
'Muscovsky and Posner said they
had no knowledge that sex went on
in the back room, and that a pitchdark
room with several love seats
was for male customers to use to
talk to the women. The two set up
and posted strict rules prohibiting
the dancers and waitresses from
having relations with customers,
they said.

[Anna]

So Lorenzo's Rave House is in fact the Paintball Ranch.  He is much too far from the water to have any underground tunnels in volcanic rock.  He is not considered a suspect by ALE.  We have no proof of any relationship to Paulus van der Sloot other than rumor.  He is likely too old and would have been on the island for years before Paulus arrived.  He is alleged to sell Ecstasy.  

If this is a photo of him, he certainly does not look at all the part of the wild raving drug dealer.  I am going to require some kind of actual proof of a connection to Natalee's disappearance before I believe there is one.  Rumors started by agents of disinformation don't count.  That would include relatives of the suspects, too.




Oh, look, a new kind of beating a dead horse!  


.

[Anna]

Seems that Michael Posner has found his kind of people.  Can't imagine he is very happy with this bad publicity brought to the entire island by this group of bungling PIMP wannabees.

But he still has his huge on-line gambling--oh, wait!  

Just the kind of people who need a permanent boycott.  I do hope he is finding it increasing difficult to profit from his lifelong accumulated effort.

.

[Anna]

San,
That is so encouraging that so many kids seem to be catching on to the dangers posed by traveling out of the country.

And on other matters, I realize not many share my views, opinions or theories and that's just fine.

We are ALL supposed to think for ourselves and form our own thoughts on every aspect of Natalee's disappearance and subsequent events.  That's the only way we have any gauge by which to measure our own reality and thoughts on the situation.  It's always helpful to know what others think and why.  I don't expect anybody to agree with me as that is not my purpose in being here.

Hope all monkeys take the time to make it a wonderful day today.

BBLater if I can. . . . . .

[robots]

So Lorenzo's Rave House is in fact the Paintball Ranch.  He is much too far from the water to have any underground tunnels in volcanic rock.  He is not considered a suspect by ALE.  We have no proof of any relationship to Paulus van der Sloot other than rumor.  He is likely too old and would have been on the island for years before Paulus arrived.  He is alleged to sell Ecstasy.  

If this is a photo of him, he certainly does not look at all the part of the wild raving drug dealer.  I am going to require some kind of actual proof of a connection to Natalee's disappearance before I believe there is one.  Rumors started by agents of disinformation don't count.  That would include relatives of the suspects, too.




Oh, look, a new kind of beating a dead horse!  


.

JACKPOT  

[Kat_Gram]

Robots, you didn't use the word TOILET.
As far as Posner goes, he found a place where he was accepted.
Fit right in as far as I can tell. OUTHOUSE is a much better descriptor for that CRAP CAN...
I think here in Canada, they are trying to implement stricter penalties for crimes against women. But it has to do with attitudes.

[Tylergal]

The last name Posner....This is a common name in some parts of the world.
I went to school with Posners and the Posner families here are
doctors lawyers and such.
Mike must have been found by the side of the road.

By the side of a Chicago road, lying in the muck of the Mafia, no doubt.  I believe Michael Posner was sent to Aruba to establish a gambling/money laundering/drug-running business by the Mafia after he was released from federal prison.  Since he did time in a well-publicized murder and was exposed as a bookie, of sorts, he could not operate openly in the Chicago area anymore.  So, they sent him overseas to continue the operation there.  I really think the names are a coincidence.  I don't think he is related to the Aruban Posners.

Below is an old article about Posner.  It is from October 17, 1987.  Notice the name in the title.

Prosecutors:

Club owners
were "pimps"

BY KATHY SCHAEFFER
Daily Herald Staff Writer

Federal prosecutors charged Friday
that the owners of the Roman
House nude dance club were "glorified
pimps" who ran a prostitution
business for 10 years, while a defense
attorney countered that the
owners actually tried to prohibit sex
between employees and customers.
In closing arguments after the
two-week trial of Michael Posner
and Sidney Muscovsky Friday, prosecutors
Virginia Junewicz and
Mark Prosperi asked the jury to find
Posner, 44, of Riverwoods, and
Muscovsky, 55, of Glenview, guilty
of racketeering, mail fraud and using
interstate facilities for prostitution
at the nude dancing club.
"You saw at least 20 different employees
who participated in or saw
sex going on in the back (of the
Roman House). Sidney Muscovsky
and Michael Posner cannot deny
they didn't know what was going
on," Junewicz said, reminding jurors
of previous testimony.
The two were indicted in January
in the Operation Safe Bet undercover
probe of vice in the suburbs.
The prosecutors say the evidence
showed that between 1975 and 1984,
Posner and Muscovsky hired nude
dancers who also -"hustled" male
customers by ,- persuading them •, to
buy numerous $82.50 bottles off. a
non-alcoholic drink. In return, the
scantily clad women would sit with
the' customers, hinting that they
could have sex with them in the back
room of the club if they continued
buying bottles, prosecutors charged.
'Muscovsky and Posner said they
had no knowledge that sex went on
in the back room, and that a pitchdark
room with several love seats
was for male customers to use to
talk to the women. The two set up
and posted strict rules prohibiting
the dancers and waitresses from
having relations with customers,
they said.

Great find, San, and thanks for keeping this in public.  My DH is of the opinion this was going on and Natalee was caught unaware and died because she protested.

[Kat_Gram]

Think the previous victims of the three or four or more are alive because :
They could not resist / fight back because they were too out of it on drugs ( GBH ) or alcohol or both to do so. Maybe they have a vague memory of something, probably not.