Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

Let's hope 2007 brings Justice for Natalee

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/11cmcopy.jpg)

SMOOTH, SAN!

Where's Robots?

Is this the first NCD  cage switch   and Where is Lala's to record the event (if it is )??? :-?

crime and criminality are a threat so any society and that is no different in the Netherlands.

Very few serious crimes (relatively) happen in the Netherlands. While we are far from paradise we have kept violent crime down by using our sentencing structure in such a manner that one time offenders will be able to return to life after an appropriate punishment (according to our principles and opinions) or that people who are most likely going to be repeat offenders are dealt by separate procedures.

The Netherlands only know approximately between 175 and 250 murders a year. Of those 80% are solved. Most of what remains are usually professional murders by hit men in the criminal world for which usually no suspect is ever found.

In rape cases also approximately 75 to 80% of cases are solved.

Our legal system may not work anywhere else, the document provided by Easywriter shows the complexity of our system and the way we try our cases. You may think suspects are getting an easy deal here, but in most countries you cannot hold a suspect for almost 100 days so that you can investigate his case.

Easywriter's document also showed that most defendants confess in the Netherlands (in all cases that come to trial). Most confess to their serious crimes within days of being arrested. Lies are common placed when interviewing suspects, but the rewards for telling the truth will be made clear to the suspect during the hours and hours of interrogations that he will have to sit through. A Proces Verbaal is usually a tame reflection of what actually took place during interrogations.

I am not going to pretend that our system is the greatest in the world because other systems most likely are equal in performance and appropriate for the country they are used in.

The Netherlands is a safe society compared to many places, murder, rape and manslaughter are not common crimes and dealt with effectively in most cases. Police will spend a lot of resources on those crimes. Also targeted are things like terrorism, child-pornography, human trafficking, major drugs-smugglers and organized crime.

Believe it or not, our system works for US, the dutch. The identities of people arrested for example here are not made public because they are nothing more than suspects. The facts of the case will be kept quiet until the trial begins because that too is how our system works.

I do not come here to preach how wonderful our system is, I cannot competently compare it thoroughly with other systems around the world but then that never was my task to begin with.

I know many people dislike what I say or how things are done in my country when it comes to legal issues, but like I just said, for us, they work. We can keep someone in jail for 116 days when only having strong suspicions, our prosecutors have vast resources at their disposal but all of this will only work if there is an actual will to do the work properly. In the Netherlands we have that, our courts and politicians make sure of it by keeping their fingers on the pulse.

In Aruba the system has gone to hell by incompetent, corrupt officials. By no oversight to speak off by the politicians and by an atmosphere of permissiveness that is not found on the mainland of the Kingdom.

I wish the Dutch could take over the island and put things right, but that would be colonial of us and that would be against what we had agreed with our former colonies. They want independence and we have no way to prevent that. I hope that the Arubans will wake up someday and smell the stench that comes from their government and society with regards to upholding the law. Especially in Natalee's case this has been a total travesty of justice.

I cannot stress strongly enough as to how disgusted I am by the actions of what should be countrymen of mine far away in the Americas. But their actions are no way like those of the majority of Dutch people that I know.

All I can do in this case is hope, hope there will be a break, hope the KLPD will find the missing pieces of the puzzle, hope that Natalee will be found, hope that the culprits will stand in court and be sentenced and hope that there will be some peace of mind for the family of Natalee after all is said and done.

Aruba is an open sore in the Kingdom, a boil that needs to be punctured and flushed out. I hope that this too will happen or else the island and it's people are going to suffer the consequences of that situation. And the only people who can do that are the Arubans themselves. They need to rise up against the 2 major corrupt political parties on the island and form a new purer administration who can solve their problems rather than add to it.

Quote:

As we have seen, under the opportunity principle as it applies in the Netherlands, with its elaborate system of prosecutorial directives, not more than 4% of all felonies that come to the attention of the police, actually reach a court and the percentage of misdemeanours is even less.  However, if they do, that same principle implies that the prosecution has taken a deliberate decision to prosecute on the basis of prior investigation

Good evening everyone!  Ramm, I may have missed it, as I don't always read every page, but have you ever explained how you know so much about Dutch legal issues, down to the number of copies of the PV put in a suspects file?  TIA

So I guess it was OK for Paulus to quiz Freddie because he was not Joran's OFFICIAL attorney at the time:

Quote:

The Code of Conduct of the Dutch Bar Association is somewhat ambivalent on the matter of lawyers conducting pre-trial investigations and certainly there is a taboo on speaking to a witness pre trial; although not expressly forbidden, it is simply not done. . . .

Wow Ramm, that was a wonderful post. I said you are a monkey. :lol:

You proved it with that post. We too want Justice for Natalee and her famly. JMHO


Old fart , I liked that working without a budget anolgy. Now remember they did manage to put there pay raise in it though. :2doh:

I forgot to ask, did anything ever come out the other day about the Dr. Phil lawsuit?  Wasn't there a decision or something to be made?  TIA

I think everything is held over until August 24th now.

There was, but there wasn't. A delay or continuance or somesuchthing. Nothing decided.

Great post, Ramm and well said.

Siren, the lawsuit is still on and moving s-l-o-w-l-y

Kalpoes are screwed. Aruba barely tolerates them now, and once the Phil suit is lost they will no longer be of use.

It's time to sing.

It's way past time, IMO

Paulus was setting them up from the first day.  Big Time!

He had the Kalpoes make HI statement and told Joran to change to FH so it would look like the Kalpoes were still lying.  Otherwise, how would ALE have known to be asking them about the FH?

Posted by Clevfan at the majorwager forum.  Clevfan was corresponding with Deepak:

07-28-2005, 11:23 PM 
clevfan 
Staff   Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 17,984 
 
 
Apparently, they are still draining the pond, here's a pic of it:




Here's a couple things that Deepak has commented on (not publicly):

Deepak said that it was Satish that was playing in the prison domino's game.

Deepak states that this "witness" that has come forward to say he saw the car in the area of the racquet club is Jossy Mansur's nephew (Jossy owns the Diario Newspaper). *

Deepak claims that the story about the missing sneeker is another one of Joran's lies that he told cops in an early version of his story.

*It is no secret on the island that Jossy has many agenda's and some say that he is using this story to sell alot of newspapers and get alot of tv coverage time on the USA news shows.

http://www.majorwager.com/forums/mess-hall/44196-anyone-else-following-natalee-holloway-case-16.html
 

http://www.majorwager.com/forums/mess-hall/44196-anyone-else-following-natalee-holloway-case-16.html

08-01-2005, 11:02 PM 
clevfan  
Staff   Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 17,984 
 
 
The Aruban police have put out a notice (I am serious here, too). They want people to be on the lookout for a size 14 blue and white K-Swiss tennis shoe or shoes. I will post the poster of it as soon as I see one.

They are saying that quite possiblely Joran is missing the shoe or both shoes that he had on that night.

BTW, this is DAY 62 that Natalee has been missing
 

http://www.majorwager.com/forums/mess-hall/44196-anyone-else-following-natalee-holloway-case-19.html

08-27-2005, 12:21 AM 
clevfan  
Staff   Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 17,984 
 
 There supposedly is going to be another arrest, probably tomorrow. Freddie is Joran's friend, he also lives right behind Joran's little apt. and he somehow connects to a car. The authorities are saying this gang of boys raped Natalee.

They are letting the 3 that were brought in today sit tight until 11pm tonight and then they are going to start interrogating them heavily

http://www.majorwager.com/forums/mess-hall/44196-anyone-else-following-natalee-holloway-case-19.html

08-28-2005, 12:54 AM 
clevfan 
Staff   Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 17,984 
 
 no new arrests today, but it has been reported that these guys have drugged and raped other girls in the past. 6 girls have come forward to implicate these 4 guys and things are heating up
 

Netherlands Bar Association
Help Desk
helpdesk@advocatenorde.nl

Maybe they could answer a few questions
about Dutch law--It's worth a try.

Anna,

I found some more information that supports your posts:


"But then he (Oduber) proceeded to tell them how many hotels he had built, and how many other ongoiong projects he had. In fact he said he had $90 million project in the works. He continued rambling and Natalee’s family’s mood quickly changed, because they didn’t want to hear his self adulation" (Holloway, p.22)

clevfan
Staff
    
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 17,984
 07-03-2005, 03:30 AM
 RE:Anyone else following this Natalee Holloway case?
these are suspect sites:

www.mrpinkproductions.com

www.guide2paradise.com


both are run by a guy orginally from michigan by the name of paul brough. he is good friends with lorenzo van rijn

old sites are: www.getlegalhookers.com and www.metronightlife.com
RE:Anyone else following this Natalee Holloway case?
What is kinda funny about this guy is that he is a guy from the Detroit area who's name is Paul Brough, he winters in Aruba and runs the local "let's go redwings" chapter there.
He has an escort service down in aruba and was stupid enough to have a few websites down there... www.mrpinkproductions.com and www.guide2paridise.com which used to be www.getlegalhookers.com

Now he is in a heap of trouble down there by the authorities due to this case, even if he isn't involved in it, he's is now cooked bigtime, LOL


Quote:
Originally posted by: clevfan
Aruba cops think X may mark the spot

NY DAILY NEWS
AUG 5

Police are said to be investigating whether a porn filmmaker might have had a hand in the May disappearance of Alabama teen Natalee Holloway in Aruba.
According to the latest scenario in the baffling case, someone may have been trying to talk the pretty 18-year-old honor student into appearing in an X-rated flick.

Aruba cops and the FBI are said to be looking to the porn world for leads.

Paul Barresi, a former adult-film producer who's now a private eye, says he heard about the possible inquiry from "another 'recruiter' who scouts South America for porn talent."


"Natalee would have been a perfect target - a naive girl from a small town," Barresi tells us. "The recruiter might tell her he wanted her to pose for some modeling test shots.

"The cops want to know whether [anyone] gave her a date-rape drug like GHB. Only, apparently, the plan went awry. She died," he theorizes, "and the porn guy may have had to get rid of her body."

Barresi believes the recruiter is likely to be "someone who lives out of a suitcase." The National Enquirer reports in its new issue that cops suspect he lives in Aruba.

The Enquirer's Rebecca Mowling and Don Gentile also report that one witness claims he saw three men dumping a body in a landfill site.

Investigators in Aruba couldn't be reached for comment yesterday.

"While still on my October trip to Aruba, Art accompanied me to see Beth’s attorney, Helen Lejuez. She informed us that Jan van der Straten had been responsible for a previous cover-up on the island" (Holloway p. 185)

According to the following translation of Joran's book ... Joran's mother Anita and his attorney, Antonio Carlo, did all the questioning of Freddy ... not Paulus.  Anna ... when the "The Code of Conduct of the Dutch Bar Association" is taken into consideration ... Antonio Carlo's was committing a violation of its provisions.

Joran's Book

Page 154, Freddy after his June 12 statement:

(Joran) That night Freddy, per request of my mother, visited, to tell
everything.
 
Freddy's parents are coming along, because they do not find it a good
idea that Freddy goes alone. Besides my father Paul and my mother Anita.
 
My lawyer Anthony Carlo is also present at our home per request of my mother.  

My mother asks Freddy to tell everything again.
 
Freddy: I could see on Anita's face that she did not know Joran had
left the girl on the beach and that he has lost his shoes. I also told
that Joran, Deepak, Satish and me had talked about it that I would buy new shoes for Joran. Anita could not believe everything I was telling. (as in amazed).
 
Carlo asks several times why Freddy thinks that Joran left his shoes behind.  Freddy answers: Joran did not want to walk with his shoes on the beach and probably left them behind because of that. Freddy tells the beachstory again that I would have told him on Monday May 30.
 
Carlo in between asks questions all the time.

Freddy: I felt he asked me those things because he thought that me as a good friend of Joran could understand why he had done these things. I do not believe he asked those questions because he thought Joran would have told me, because he repeated every time: Why do you think that?
 
My father does not ask Freddy anything, but he does react on Freddy's answers to my mother. He says: why does Joran lie, and why did he not tell us that?
 
My mother had promised the conversation would last 10 minutes max, but after half an hour Freddy's father gets up.
 
My parents did not agree with Joran's parents having invited me, Freddy says.
 
After Carlo had called the head officer for permission to visit me, he
confronts me with what Freddy had said. I immediately admitted I had
lied and that Freddy was telling the truth.

Ribbit   :P

Hi-ho!

 :smt052

Diario
http://www.diarioaruba.com/
Amigoe
http://www.amigoe.com/english/
BonDia
http://www.cspnv.com/
Solo di Pueblo
http://www.solodipueblo.com/
Aruba Today
http://www.arubatoday.com/
24ora
http://www.24ora.com/
Translator:
http://papiamentu.donamaro.nl

Rudy Croes info:
http://www.goldcoastaruba.com
http://www.goldcoastaruba.com/newsDtls.aspx?id=9
http://www.casbon.net/our-company.htm

Quote from: Rammstein on August 16, 2007, 08:36:37 PM
Quote from: blah on August 16, 2007, 06:37:28 PM
I cannot belive you just said that, you believe that there should be no deterrent to keep an inmate from attempting escape?????????????

dude, you are really starting to go off the deep end here


do you know how many Dutch guards get killed or seriously wounded during break out attempts? Or how many cops get killed when hunting down the criminals?

If people who break out of jails do so with violence or commit acts of crime while out of jail then those offenses cause extra jail time.

And people are being deterred by the fact that they will spend extra time in jail from not being released early and from being sent to a maximum security facility with all kinds of restrictions as to visitors and movement.


Nice spin but unfortunatley it has nothing to do with what you just said about "they will not receive additional charges against them. You might find that strange, I don't. I think it makes perfect sense"!! 

Keep spinning!!



 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

"No ice cream for a week!!!!!"  :-|

Kermit,

Thank you!  I do believe this is at the heart of the cover up and not any desire to protect individuals.  I further believe that all this construction would have been built with construction loans which have payments that come due and so it must be leased at all times.  Or sold in case of dire financial straits which the Aruban government had been in for some time.

I think this is Aruba's dirty little secret, they have mortgages on all those hotels and they are massive and they can't keep up the payments.  In order to sell said hotels, they would need a tourist industry that is not only stable but flourishing.  I do recall 12% increase as being a number they were promoting as to be realistically expected.

So I now wonder how many million and to whom did they owe and what was the shortfall in their cash flow.

Inquiring minds want to know. . . . .

Quote from Casbon:

The range of the projects we undertook resulted in the construction of more then 310 homes and laid a solid and experienced organizational foundation for future growth. Our organization, today, is flexible and keen in adapting to the constantly changing market place. Our biggest asset is our close interrelationship with our customers, suppliers, employees, banks and the local community in general.
. . .

In 2006, Cas Bon, one of the largest construction companies of private homes, will construct more then 80 quality new homes all around Aruba.
---------

All kinds of construction going on in Aruba.

...so, how many Arubans got "new homes" to keep quiet about the Government"???

Ah, you are so right, Janet.  And they say it just isn't done yet here we have not one but two attorneys grilling a witness.

Note the above in BLUE.  Confession is indeed good for the soul and I can't think of a soul in more need than Joran's.  He just can't keep it straight when he told all that to Freddie.  Sounds like Monday before he should have known anything about anybody being missing.
.

And yes, I realize it is Paulus pretending that he is not grilling Freddie by having Anita do it.  I think he even left the room and went into the kitchen at one point to further give this impression but I would bet he did not get out of listening range.

There is really no point in doing battle over the nuances of Dutch Law.  I don’t think the poster is deliberately trying to mislead us, but his posting style can be a little caustic and implies something is written in stone.  It would take a highly trained professional to fully interpret the law as it applies to particular cases.

In the U.S. LE can talk to a witness all day long and ask any question conceivable, but as soon as his arrest someone he must Mirandize the suspect and the 5th amendment rights kick in.  If that suspect request legal representation, all questioning must stop until that is done.  That is not to say that any lies the suspect told as a witness will not come back to haunt him at trial.  This is not that much different than what I am reading about Dutch Law and witness/suspect status.

Again, in the U.S. a spouse and other relatives can not be forced to testify at trial against a suspect, but that does not give them a free pass.  If they give false alibis or other false information in order to hinder an investigation they could be charged with that crime.

What we do now know about Dutch Law is that obstruction of justice is a crime, plea bargains exists, informants exists, endangered witness status is available and the prosecutor is all powerful until a case is presented to a judge.

http://www.amigoe.com/english/ (http://www.amigoe.com/english/)  August 16, 2007

Chávez: The seas all the way
to the Greater Antilles are Venezuela’s  

WILLEMSTAD – By order of the National Government, director Dito Mendes de Gouveia of Foreign Affairs Administration (DBB) in Willemstad has asked the ministry of Foreign Affairs in The Hague for advice on the most recent statements of the Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez, who while addressing the Venezuelan parliament – la Asamblea Nacional – indicated that his country can claim everything that lies within 200 nautical miles from Venezuela.   

Around noon, Mendes declared before Z86 that he cannot imagine that with this, Chavez is targeting the Neth.Antilles.  There are ratified treaties on sea-borders, says Mendes.  He assumes that Chavez is actually targeting the Aves Island that lays a little south of Saba and Statia.  This island is uninhabited and gets flooded by the sea in certain periods of the year.  There is a dispute going on with the nearby independent islands.

“But, we are watching the situation closely and other than advice, we have also asked for further information”, said Mendes.  DBB considers the relations with Venezuela as normal.  Mendes also says that canceling the intended official visit of Prime Minister Emily de Jongh-Elhage (PAR) to Caracas and the return visit of Chavez is out of the question. 

While addressing the parliament last Wednesday, Chavez announced that he wants to have an investigation conducted on the northern border of Venezuela.  Diario El Progreso is one of the newspapers that reported this.  According to Chavez, Venezuela does not border on what he calls ‘el mar de las Antillas’, but on Hispaniola (Dominican Republic and Haiti), Puerto Rico (the so-called Greater Antilles), and the Eastern Caribbean Islands.    In addition to the 12 miles territorial waters over which Venezuela has exclusive sovereignty, the president also wants the Venezuelan rights to apply in the exclusive economic zone – the so-called 200-mile zone.  “All that is Venezuela”, he said.

Following the countries around the North Pole, also Venezuela is now going to check how much it can still get in the 200-mile zone.  Russia, Canada, the United States, Denmark, and Iceland already announced in the past weeks that they claim the underwater territories of the North Pole.  Argentina has already announced earlier that she has mapped the underwater territories in the Atlantic Ocean.  According to the UN-convention about Maritime Law, the ‘constitution for the world seas’, countries bordering the sea can claim an economic zone of up to 200 miles offshore.  However, when the continental shelf reaches further than that, the countries can claim the seabed, including everything underneath it, up to a maximum of 350 miles offshore. 

In order to accurately determine the underwater borders, the UN had established a committee for the borders of the continental shelf.  The member-states of the convention received 10 years, from 1999 till 2009, to figure out the exact size of their underwater territory.  Countries in these zones have the right to explore the resources of the water and seabed. 

AVEZ ISLAND

The coordinates of Aves Island are in latitude 15.67 degrees north and in longitude 63.62 degrees west.  The island lays a few hundred miles west of Dominica in the Caribbean Sea, so, even though it lays 800 kilometers offshore, it officially belongs to Venezuela.  Do not confuse this island with the uninhabited group of islands between Bonaire and Los Roques that are also called the Aves-islands.  The island is a volcanic atoll and is grown over with corals and covered with sand.  The size of the island varies from season to season.  It disappears completely under water when a hurricane passes over.  Expectations are that this is also going to happen this coming weekend when hurricane Dean passes over.  The island is very unique for the special seabirds and turtles that lay their eggs.   

If Venezuela looses the island, the country also looses an exclusive zone of 150.000 square meters around it.  The Venezuelan government has created a platform on the island for the army that stay there all year round, also when hurricanes passes over.  A whole lot of paperwork is required to get on the island.  It is being managed by a special government department. 

* * *

Dissatisfaction with quads increases 

ORANJESTAD – The dissatisfaction with the quad races, especially popular to tourists, continues to grow.  AZV complained earlier about the high medical costs due to accidents with these quads.  Parke Nacional Arikok is currently considering taking actions against quad racers and other motorized traffic in the Park. 

Reason for this is the incident that took place late last week, when unknown persons crossed through the dunes of Dos Playa and killed several little turtles that had just hatched out of their eggs.  Park rangers assume that quad racers are responsible for this, because they saw tire tracks in the sand.  They will announce this Friday what measures they are going to take to prevent this from happening again. 

Signs have been posted in 2005, informing the people that it is not allowed to drive through the dunes or on the beach.  But people are still crossing, with all the consequences for the vegetation, birds and turtles that lay their eggs in this area, the beaches and the dunes. 

Several instances are also worried about the traffic safety of the quads.  Two people died in accidents with quads last year.  The hospital says that an average of 25 to 30 accidents with quads take place on an annual basis.  The injuries are almost always serious.  These accidents happen because the drivers do not comply with traffic rules.  They do not wear a helmet and most of the time they are not properly dressed.   

Another problem is that accidents with quads often take place in remote areas and more people and material are needed, like a helicopter, to get to them and transport them.  Two tourists were injured in accidents with their quads last Monday and Tuesday.  Up till now, there are no figures of the number of accidents with these vehicles. 

I have always wondered who lived in that house right next to Joran's apartment.  If Freddy is connected to a car I believe that he was with Jaime in the car.  No way was he traveling alone.  He was with his best friend for life as he said in one of his photos with Jaime.  Jaime is involved in this crime and I believe he was holding something for Joran.  Out of all the suspects brought in Jaime was the only one asked if Joran gave him something to hold.  Why would the ALE ask him this question if they didn't know something already.

San,
I think ALE may have been trying to be sure that no one was holding any "hard" evidence like the bloody shoe or film/photos.  Couldn't have anything like that left around!

I think they may have been looking for any traces of anything that could be deemed as concrete evidence that could have been used as evidence in court.  Joran may also have told them he gave Jamie something to hold for him.  No way were they going to leave any forensic or video proof at large.

MsMarple,
Huumm on Chavez claiming 200 nautical miles.  I would think that provision was meant for large countries like Greenland with no other ones so close by. 

Well, if he claims that much, should include lots of islands that do not belong to him.  At least that didn't used to, lol.

Sure don't want to hear any whining from these islands about Oduber's buddy's actions.  Surrounded by "his" water should suit them just fine.

Easy,
I read through 16 pages of that explanation you provided and will try to finish it over the weekend.  Gives me a headache for some reason.

I wonder what they mean that the Prosecutor doesn't prosecute unless he deems that it is in the best interest of the public at large.  So if this would hurt tourism, does that mean prosecution would not be in the best interest of the public of Aruba and so KJ will never prosecute no matter what?

One thing the article did clarify, maybe the only thing, is that the prosecutor is supposed to be after the TRUTH no matter who it favors and should not assume an adversarial role against the suspects.  Maybe this is why both she and ALE seem like an extension of the defense teams.  They are supposed to remain neutral.

.

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/ArubaZuela2.jpg)

Some of it is difficult to understand.  Victims do not have much say in anything and in recent years agencies have been setup to help with that problem.  I prefer our system even with all of its warts.

Paulus was removed from hearing cases to doing only contracts.

Joran's neighbor:
14 Montana: Carlos Correa lives there.
You can call him at international code (297) 587 - XXXX.

Somehow I got lost and ended up in the Shango room.  I was like  :gaah: I gotta get the hell out of here!!!!


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

As robots says - I was skeeeeeeeered

lolol  :lol: :lol:

Thanks Kermit.  :lol:

Do we know anything about what kind of coverup that was "supercop" Jan was responsible for, who were the principals involved, when?

BLah,
I have done that and more than once!   :shock:They put it above this thread to trick us!   :wink:It is listed FIRST instead of this general discussion one.

Can that be by coincidence?  I don't think so. :-?

And yes, it is more than a little scarey in there!

It's really not "above" each is a sticky. The sticky with the most recent post goes on top.  :wink:

GrannyToad,
I don't think I have ever heard what previous cover up Uncle Jan was involved in, the man who is not Joran's Godfather but might as well be.

Could it be the same old Alex Matthews scandal?

AHA!  That's how they do it!  So one time you go and it's this normal thread and the next time S&S!  No wonder I keep getting in the wrong one.

Hi Monkeys

 08-26-2005, 05:52 PM 
clevfan 
Staff   Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 17,995 
 
 RE:Anyone else following this Natalee Holloway case?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A press release has come out from the prosecutors according to MSNBC that was sent to them by email

They are in custody based up the same suspicions as before. There suspected of the primary criminal act of committing premeditated murder, alternately together with other people murdering somebody, more alternately, rob a person of her liberty with fatal consequences, and even more alternately, raping somebody.

Aside from these suspicions against the two brothers, there are new suspicions, which at this point the prosecutor is not commenting on. To arrest Satish Kalpoe and Deepak Kalpoe again, there had to be new facts and circumstances. That is the case.

Does anyone know what those new suspicions were?

I don't know if this has anything to do with anything....just interesting.


http://www.globest.com/news/973_973/gsrglobal/163245-1.html

KL Holdings Making $65M Bet on Aruba
By Joe Clements  Email this story |  Printer-friendly |  Reprints 

Aruba Eagle BeachARUBA-Plans to create one of the largest casinos in the Caribbean has gotten a $65 million infusion that will be used to revive a bankrupt resort along this island’s famous Eagle Beach. The funding for KL Holding Co.’s vision comes via the issuance of senior secured notes to institutional investors. KL is affiliated with the Gillmann Group, owned by Las Vegas gaming mogul Fred Gillmann, who has been personally involved in securing the Aruba assets.........more at link. 

Another Interesting article:

http://www.hotelinteractive.com/hi_index.asp?page_id=5000&article_id=8678

David Wahba is Named Director of Sales and Marketing of The Westin Aruba Resort
8/17/2007 12:15:21 PM
David Wahba has been appointed Director of Sales and Marketing of The Westin Aruba Resort, located on the white sands of Palm Beach, Aruba in the Dutch Caribbean. In his new position, Wahba will oversee the resort’s marketing, public relations, advertising and sales for all major market segments.

Wahba brings more than 15 years of hospitality experience to his post at The Westin Aruba Resort. Prior to his new position, Wahba served as the Complex Director of Sales and Marketing for The Sheraton Yankee Trader and Sheraton Yankee Clipper Hotels in Ft. Lauderdale, FL. During his tenure, he enjoyed the distinction of finishing in the Top Five in North America for Starwood in group production for hotels with more than 500 rooms in 2006. Earlier in his career he held various sales and marketing leadership positions at The Westin Peachtree Plaza in Atlanta, GA; the Ritz-Carlton-Grande Lakes Orlando and JW Marriott in Orlando, FL; the Toronto Airport Marriott and the Delta Meadowvale Resort and Conference Centre in Ontario, Canada......more at link.

I have also been looking through the International Monetary Fund file on Aruba but am not finding much except they are pretty well in need of cash and are going to need even more as they have too many governement employees who will be qualifying for pensions soon.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2005/cr05204.pdf

These guys are so suspicious, it could have been anything. Maybe it was that reported attempt by Deepak to get an alibi from some girl in the States? IIRC, that was in August 05.

I am still dazed by the concept that the Prosecutor can just chose not to prosecute a case if deemed not in the greater public interest to do so.

Makes me think this one will never see the light of day for sure.

What does public interest have to do with whether or not laws were broken?

Also the article Easy posted a link to speaks frequently of "other options available to the prosecution" but never says exactly what those options are.  At least it hasn't that I have read so far.

Meanwhile am reading that and looking for mortgages on all those hotels the government in Aruba has built and owns.  Talk about a conflict of interest and the appearance of wrong doing, etc.!

So the government and tourism are so intertwined that they really can't be separated and can't function as separate entities.  And this investigation is a prime example of what's wrong with that concept.

Just going through some old posts at the Aruba.com forum:

http://www.aruba.com/forum/f7/natalee-holloway-only-thread-2155/

06-13-2005, 10:13 AM    post #3 (permalink)   
north1
 

Posts: n/a   Re: Natalee Holloway Only Thread

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what the news reports are saying;

The two detained Surinamese friends told police in their testimony that the three took Holloway to the beach, where the Dutch boy kissed and fondled her in the back of their car, before they returned her to the hotel around 2 a.m.

Here is the flaw in this story;
The cars on the Island are usually very small and compact... The grey car in question is also noted as being a very small car. Have you seen the size of the Dutch boy!
Van Der Sloot!!! I would like the media to tell us how tall he is.There is no way that he had enough room to do anything in the backseat of that little car.

My guess is that they probably did go to a beach, but not the one they said they did... Van Der Sloot probably took Natalee onto the beach to have his way and when she refused he probably did what we all fear... Went back to the car and told the two brothers to leave...never telling them what he did.

Again... this is just my theory...
 
 

Another concept with dutch law that umptymillion Americans would view with distaste and utter abhorrence, or at least I do, is that it is a closed guild with no public oversight.

and a very plausable theory.  He then told the K2 that she wanted to stay at the beach, and Deepak said "f-- the bitch" and they left.    Papa slot, or others then returned to take care of the matter. 

http://www.24ora.com/content/view/1835/6/


(http://www.24ora.com/images/stories/news/aug2007/aug%2010%20-%20aug%2017/Dean%208.21%20om.jpg)

Dean ta sigi su ruta cu a wordo proyecta         
Friday, 17 August 2007 

24ora.com kier a duna nos bishitante nan un bista di e Horcan Dean con e ta sigi riba su ruta cu a wordo proyecta. Loke cu nos por mira tambe riba e imagen di satelite di Dean ta cu su rastronan ta bastante hancho. Actualmente tin e proyecsion cu Aruba tambe lo por haña yobida y donder cu lamper. Click pa un imagen mas grandi.

Through translator:

dean is sigi his ruta cu owing to wordo proyecta come across

24ora.com wanted owing to give we bishitante they one view of the horcan dean con the is sigi on his ruta cu owing to wordo proyecta. thing cu we can see also on the imagen of satelite of dean is cu his rastronan is enough hancho. actualmente have the proyecsion cu aruba also will can find yobida y donder cu lightning. click for one imagen more big. come across

 

Shiz has put together a new site...looks like a work in progress...has a good timeline  >

http://www.freewebs.com/hollowaycase/index.htm

Yeah, took at look at that the other day.  Nicely done.

THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT ARUBA.

For a place with so little "serious" crime, there sure are a LOT of bodies being found. Or NOT found.

Maybe Dean will blow Aruba right onto the Venezuela coast and give Chavez what he wants LOL.

More likely it will do a LOT of damage to Aruba and possibly hurt it tourism infrastructure and cost its government a lot of money to clean up.

Heh, heh, heh.

There are Biblical references that come immediately to mind for some reason here.

Heh, heh.

:wink:

Looks like Chavez means business.  Wasn't it about a year ago Red did a front page on Chavez and Aruba?  That's when I created my ARUBAZUELA picture, LOL  :lol:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/ArubaZuela2.jpg)

Well SB...as much as I think Aruba sucks... I wouldn't want for any one to be physically harmed... as far as the hotels looking like Katrina hit... welll I do believe in the GOLDEN RULE....

going to do some reading ... will see ya'll tomorrow... my eyes hurt today from reading too much legaleeze...

Good Evening My Monkeys,
Gosh, so much to read lately.  I'm concerned, hope some Monkey will put my mind at ease.  With Chavez saying he owns all the oceans for a million miles, is this gonna hurt Tims search for Natalee???? :shock: :shock:

Monroe Doctrine???? :idea:

Personally, I think Chavez would be more likely to grant permission to search than Aruba!  After all, HE has nothing to hide.

JMO

Thanks Wreck,
But I didn't like all those question marks.  I'm not sure what that is, I will have to "google".

Anna - I agree.

OMG, lots more reading after I googled the Monroe Doctrine.  Bout the only thing I retained, and remembered as a child was Roosevelt adding the the Doctrine, "Speak softly and carry a big stick!" That sounds like a plan!!!!
I got to go, home stuff calls.  Night My Monkeys sleep tight. :) :)

Nite HB

LOL -- I'm not sure either (my history lessons were a long time ago).
Basically, the Monroe Doctrine sets the United States to be the "enforcer" in the entire "Americas" and the Carribean. (Don't mess with Texas... U.S.A.

Seriously!  Chavez loves to be seen as some fake humanitarian. 

And that's a good thing to use if needed.

messed up reply:
"If Chavez thinks anything will benefit the U.S. -- he will oppose it."

(.... I still think the whole U.S.A. ''silence" here has to do with Chavez/Aruba/Sovergnity issuses anyways)

... the F.B.I. knows, our State Department knows, the KLPD knows, and The Netherlands Govt. knows

Now keep in mind this is the World Court, etc. under the auspecies of the UN, and not Dutch law being applied.  But isn't it ironic they would be asked to host this when they won't even prosecute street crime in their own country!

Dutch to host special tribunal on Lebanon killings

http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKN1721284420070817?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews


Makes me sick.  How dare they pretend this great love of justice when doing nothing for Natalee.   :sad:

may
Scared Monkey
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Are there any CodeTalkers here?
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2005, 03:44:24 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote
Shango is saying the media really need to investigate and dig up stuff about why the polis chief is leaving. The light needs to shine in that direction and not for everyone to say: oh good! he is leaving, he was corrupt and leave it at that.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1840.40

Riight..How could he lead a proper Investigation against his best friends son? He absolutely killed the Investigation,said he was retiring to holland then took the Police Commissioner Position in Bonaire. This is the guy started the coverup,tried to frame two innocent people then helped destroy all the evidence. I would imagine the Van Der Sloots owe this guy big..

With Dutch law so over-whelming favoring "suspects" and with previous "rulings" by Judges such as Witt and Smit -- I suspect the KLPD would have to spend more time and energy bringing down these corrupt officials than actually being able to prosecute the actual perps at this stage of the investigation. I fear J2K&P are going to skate -- but Jacobs, VDSt, etc. are the ones to go down. ( like double jeopardy)

joran is a pig  :cool:

Robots I have found you, yippee!! :lol: :lol:

There are two articles in today's Diario about Hurricane Dean. One is about the hurricane itself, the other is about preparation on the island.

The hurricane is projected about 450 km from Aruba, so it is not really on the path. However rough water, and a lot of rain and wind are expected.

From what I see on the "projection cone" the worst of the weather for Aruba would be this evening, around 5:00 p.m.

Jamaica is currently right smack on the path, could be a Level 4 or even 5 force.

The Yucatan peninsula (Cancun etc.) also is on the path, and projected at Level 5 at that point. Hurricanes are very rare there, but it does happen. (I was at Cancun one week before Gilbert hit in 1988. I think one of the 2005 hurricanes also went through the area.)

A reminder that one of the 2005 hurricanes on a similar path took an abrupt right turn and hit Florida.

 :cool: :D

Hurricane Dean Nightly Broadcast:  http://www.hurricanecity.com/live1.htm

Heineken DJ Competition!        
Friday, 17 August 2007 


@ Cool FM 98.9
16 DJ'S
DJ Renzo
DJ Brian
Danny Platinum
J Star
Dwatje
DJ Bash
Virus
DJ Diablo (Steve Croes)
Al Copone
Jose da Silva
DJ Rodnie
DJ Dimon
Silvano
DJ Ray
DJ Big Rig
DJ Panter

(http://aruba-zone.com/images/stories/djcomp1.jpg)

http://www.24ora.com/ BREAKING NEWS...........???

Nos a compronde cu awe mainta trempan na costa noord di Aruba weso a wordo haña. E wesonan aki a wordo haña net banda di e brug chiquito na costa. E wesonan lo mester tin basta aña eynan caba pero tawata bow tera. E lama bruto cu tin awor lo mester a coba pa asina e wesonan por a wordo mira. E prome informa ta bisa cu nan lo mester ta weso humano. Pronto mas informacion y imagen!


Translation vis PAP>>>>
we owing to compronde cu today morning trempan at costa north of aruba bone owing to wordo find. the wesonan here owing to wordo find just near of the bridge chiquito at costa. the wesonan will have to have enough year eynan end but tawata bow ground. the lama bruto cu have now will have to owing to coba for so the wesonan can owing to wordo see. the first informa is tell cu they will have to is bone human. soon more informacion y imagen!

mmmmmmmmm.......a BONE found???

Paulus van der Sloot
Suspect Statement
June 23, 2005

To your question whether Freddy ZEDAN came to our house out of his own accord or whether I had invited him, I can state the following. According to me Freddy phoned my wife after he had been questioned by the police. According to me he and his girlfriend came over to see my wife and he told what he had stated to the police. I was busy in the kitchen and did not hear everything Freddy was saying. Only at the end of the conversation I joined them. My wife and I were angry at Joran, because he did not tell the truth from the beginning. My wife planned to confront Joran with Freddy's statements. That night we were going to have a meeting with Mr. A. CARLO, this was a previously planned meeting. My wife called Freddy again and asked him if he could tell his story again to Joran's lawyer.  At first he didn't want to come because he had an exam the very next day but in the end he and his parents came over. He then told the story he knew to Joran's lawyer. I am convinced that Mr. CARLO did this with the best intentions possible.

Wonder if there will be a follow up on this?  Or will it be tossed in a drawer somewhere with the other bones? 

THANKS Granny T.....and Iagree MuffyB

Anyone have a map handy that shows where Chiquito Bridge is located? On the north coast line ... at least, it seems like it's mentioning a Chiquito Bridge.

The comment section is interesting as well.... :cool:

Freddy tells the beachstory again that I would have told him on Monday May 30.

Anna ... Joran is trying to make it appear that he had told Freddie the "truth" on Monday, May 30, 2005 ... the truth pertaining to the Marriot Beach drop off.  However ... according to Freddie ... Joran related the Holiday Inn account ... the Holiday Inn account that Joran implied was fabricated minutes prior to meeting with an anquished step-father and mother.

Janet

+++++++++++++

Freddy Arambatzis
Joran's Book
June 12, 2005

Monday afternoon on the 30th, Joran came to my house.

He told me that the previous day, Sunday, he had befriended a girl in the Holiday Inn casino and that she had invited him to come to Carlos and Charlies that evening. He went and they danced and drank together.

After that he, Deepak Satish and the girl drove off. Her friends saw that. The drove in the direction of the Lighthouse; a white car was behind them and most likely wanted to race Deepak. But that is something Deepak would never do. Joran told me that he fingered and had french kissed the girl while they were driving. He did not say that he had had sex with her.

They drove to the Lighthouse, she wanted to see sharks. But Deepak only drove up to the Lighthouse because his car is very low to the ground and cannot drive up to the North side of Aruba.

The girl had said to Joran that if Deepak and Satish would have lived in her town, they would be slaves.

After that they drove to the hotel. When the girl had pushed open the door of the car, she fell to the ground. Joran wanted to help her but she shoved him away.  (....)

The next day, Tuesday May 31st 2005 in the afternoon, I was with Joran at the raquetclub. Joran looked worried. He asked me if I could remember what he had said the previous day about the girl. I told him yes.

http://www.sea-breezeappartments.com/location/          ???

That looks "Southwest" to me  :smt102

To make this clear - per the 24ora headline, they ARE human bones.

Here are the Pap translations of Comments.

* * *
god know cu is bone they of natalee haloway!spera cu not apso desp prensa mericano will azota we country as horcan!i desp they will go back boycotia we!=i one near the is one alivo if for her mother cu at least know cu his jui is dead and not have hope more!pero as look at!!!!!

* * *
the bone they have enough time eynan dus min is believe the is of natalee door if min is assure aworaki assure prensa mericano is cochi cayente for hanja know

* * *
thanks 24ora for not assumi news for crea rumornan false cu can start redonan rond y hurt we island. let we keep upstairs information official y not crea ghost where not have, so they owing to try danja we name afo cu aid of some aruban. for contene we comentarionan y keep upstairs more information. thanks.

* * *
her come's trouble again!!!!!!!!

* * *
wel they have to look at rond if they're hanja one keds eibanda also then we is ready

* * *
god know if do not bone of 1 of the indiannan for of the time they yonder (e temponan of much more first cu temponan of antaño)?

* * *
yep,miho they girl because prensa mericano assure will cuminsa pp first they hanja know!!!!!!i desp we country is wordo beat cu prensa again!

* * * * * * * * * * *

Nut - Thanks for that link to that location. It is just below the Airport, which I think of as "south" - although the 24ora notice seems to indicate north coast. It may be a reference to noord polis or something else, though.

I have a question.  Why are they covering for Paulus regarding him being present at the time when Anita invited him to their home. At the time he apparently wasn't a lawyer in Aruba yet.  Was that all a show that we saw of Paulus being sworn in so he could practice law with Antonio Carlo.  Yes I know he was a lawyer already in the Netherlands but if he practiced law in Aruba he would have to be sworn in.  At the time of the questioning of Freddy he supposedly wasn't a lawyer. :roll:

I think they are FOS.

Actually, as I re-read it, I'm pretty sure 24ora is saying the bones were found on the north coast.

I don't remember seeing a Chiquita bridge. I'll see if I have a map somewhere.

Has anyone deduced if the bones were "dug up" or found "washed-up" or what?

Wreck - I haven't deduced either. I think all that's been said is that human bones were found.

More online Pap translations of comments at 24ora (10 so far).

* * *
(hahah) then "reina", you is believe cu if is bone of indian they will stay contento? cnn y fox will core filma of resulta cu is 1 indian his wesonan they will owing to achieve? will wanted look at the reaccion, if resulta cu is of indian the bone is. y majority not will is neither worry self if resulta cu is bone of indian they owing to coba. y is at once they will return they madre country if resulta cu is bone indian they owing to coba. y dus as wait for cu is all will return they madre country the hour? chavez will follow cu his claim on the islands fast costa venezolano if resulta cu latinonan niether is give same value at wesonan of indian? dicon they wanted have one claim on aruba then? because latinonan will kiermen cu aruba is of they. but esey is the caso if they not presta atencion self at bone indian? is the hour will can know if chavez is descendiente of indian or not. because the dictador ey if his mouth is big!!

* * *
they kermen cu much time happen 3 hnd owing to die enan then they owing to bury they enan esey they owing to tell at radio

* * *
pls check good.promer cu send news for nancy grace

* * * * * * * * * *
The link to the notice and comments:

http://www.24ora.com/content/view/1840/8/#jc_allComments (http://www.24ora.com/content/view/1840/8/#jc_allComments)

To the Pap translator:

http://papiamentu.donamaro.nl/index.php?pAction=tradusi (http://papiamentu.donamaro.nl/index.php?pAction=tradusi)

Granny,

If you're still here, could give us a litle better idea of the jist of those comments on the 24Ora article?

(http://www.sea-breezeappartments.com/images/p_arubamap.gif)

As explained by Ramm, under Dutch law, crime may or may not be prosecuted. It depends 1) upon negotiation from ALE level upward, and finally 2) whether or not prosecution would serve public interest.

Point 1 is Paul vdSloot's specialty: negotiation keeps criminal acts from ever coming before the courts, thus keeps individual's behavior out of the court record.

It may be that Aruba's Justice Minister Rudy Croes thought Natalee's case had reached the point where prosecution WOULD serve public interest. Or maybe he figgered that KLPD couldn't either since anything prosecutable had been cleaned up.  

Posted by MF at RU:

MF Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:18 am   

Because of the rough seas, a bone has been uncovered at the north side of the island. No official confirmation is this human or from an animal. In the past bones were found that were dated to hundreds of years, and also from people trying to enter the island illegally from the north side.

Will be back later. 

I am doubting that the map I posted is the place....that isn't north...
the 24 ora says something about determining IF it is human or not. It does not say it IS.

Thanks klaas.

The headline at 24ora says:

Weso humano a wordo haña na costa

The online Pap translator says:

bone human owing to wordo find at costa


Granny says "Weso" is plural "bone" (bones)

But we've been down this road before ... arm bone, Venezuela.

Also, GrannyT posted at BFN that chiquito=small perhaps...so small bridge.
Well, that tells us a lot, arkkkkkkk!!

they deperately need to get someone from FBI down there
someone from US need to be able to sample this also

I do not know where bridge chiquita, or little bridge is, but the article did say north coast 0 whether east or west side I can't guess. Never been there, just found Papi easy to pick up. And no I would not confuse that with Pos Chiquito. The article suggests that heavy storm action of the sea washed the bones to where they're visible.

Let's wait for more info.

I wouldn't get excited thinking this is Natalee although it is possible. Keep in mind Aruba's penchant for dismissing human life on the record as Runaway, Suicide, Desaparecido, Missing, Domestic Problem Deaths -- anything BUT Murder. See my post above about criminal prosecution, and negotiation and public good. 

Granny,

Are those Aruban posters on Ora24 making positive or negative comments about the family?

GrannyToad,
I have been asking about this for a few days but I have not seen any response from Ramm or anybody else for that matter.

Can you give link to where he explains this?  I can't find it and the thread for him was locked for clean up.

Thanks!

.

ON the Map if I am reading you guys right
Boca Chiquito is almost directly across the island from
Oranjestad on outside of island

Oh, I'm sorry Granny - I didn't have your post in front of me.

According to the article and what MF said, the bone was found on the North side of the island which would be around Arashi and the Lighthouse.

LIke I said If I was reading this right.. But if that is correct to by light house that is signicant

I was thinking the same think Sue!!!

Strange That Hurricane Katrina took this story out of the news
and Now Hurricane Dean could possibly bring it back into the News
We need US media grabbing this so it doesnt get buried

So "MF" says it was "washed ashore"??? Does a "bridge" cross over an area accessible to the ocean?

Nahhhh it could be anywhere on the rocky north coast like on the east side all down toward Alto Vista Chapel and on down toward Boca Chiquito, and still be north side.

http://www.caribline.com/islands/ar/armap.shtml (http://www.caribline.com/islands/ar/armap.shtml)

GRANNY TOAD,

Here is the link from Easywriter:

http://www.ejcl.org/111/art111-6.pdf

This is where I keep getting the idea that the Prosecution decides whether or not it is in the interest of the public to prosecute or not.

I would like Ramm to comment on that aspect. 

Also it keeps saying things about other options available to the Prosecution but I can't seem to find out what those other options might be.  Maybe FINES? 

I will keep reading as time allows but would like some input from others on the business of only prosecuting if it is in the interest of the greater public to do so.

If that is truly the case, there is no way this investigation will ever see a courtroom with or without forensic evidence!

JMO but it is bothering me a great deal.

.

Aruba’s popular natural bridge, formed after centuries of pounding waves and rain collapsed and fell into the Caribbean Sea on Sept. 2.

This rock bridge of100 feet long and 25 feet high, was formed from coral limestone on Aruba's windy, rugged northern coast turned in one of Aruba's most treasured and photographed tourist attraction in the Caribbean.

Visitors to Aruba can still appreciate the other unique natural landmarks Aruba possesses, like the baby bridge at the original natural bridge

I know this is 'jumping the gun' so to speak, but it would probably be a good idea for Red or someone here who knows Beth to contact her, if possible....JUST IN CASE. If it happens to be significant then ALE will toss it.

For what it's worth, I found this on a Google search of "Boca Chiquito" - from someone's web site:



I know "boca" means "mouth" ... it is sometimes used to donote the opening of a mine. (But of course we have many "Boca ___" especially in Florida that have nothing to do with mines.)

Some people just do not get it!

It was never in the best interest of Aruba not to pursue justice for Natalee Holloway and ... it still is not.  It has only in the best intestest of a wannabe judge and his son ... it has only been in the best interest of those who do not want existing corruption exposed within the Aruban/Dutch administration.

The ongoing controversy is not about about an eighteen year old American citizen who when missing on Aruban soil under suspicious circumstance.  Crime happens everywhere.  It is about the perception of a corrupt investigation which is preventing justice from prevailing ... it is about the perception that a corrupt investigation is protecting their own from implication ... it is about a determined mother who will not let go ...

The Natalee Holloway case would be a distance memory if those who participated in the events of that fateful morning had been held accountable for their actions by the Dutch/Aruban justice system.

Janet


Beth Twitty
The Jonesboro Sun
January 29, 2007

Twitty recalled the first days after her daughter's disappearance and the actions of the Aruban government.

"We did everything we could in looking for her. There was a government coverup, and it has been documented," Twitty contended.


Beth Twitty
Decatur Daily News
September 4, 2005

“For the rest of my life, I will continue to be the voice for my daughter, seeking justice in Aruba. Every parent would want the same justice for their child.”

Natural Bridge
Aruba's famed Natural Bridge once rose 25 feet above the sea and spanned a hundred feet of rock-strewn waters carved out of solid coral by centuries of relentless pounding by the Atlantic surf. It was this relentless pounding that on September 2, 2005, caused Aruba's largest natural bridge to collapse. The snack and gift shop remain as a respite for those on their way to the natural pool or exploring the island. There is another smaller natural bridge nearby and several others throughout the island.

http://www.aruba-travelguide.com/sights/natural_bridge.html

This is the "baby" Natural Bridge near the original Natural bridge on the north side of the island:

(http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/00/12/4f/63/baby-natural-bridge.jpg)

I'll have to try to explain a little geography or partly geology. The island's basically ancient seabottom coral deposits which is greatly silicicate, a hard rock that resists erosion. Overlaying that would be some limestone depostion which isn't as hard a rock. OK, wave action wears away rock leaving "sea stacks", and continuing wave action can eventually wear away a "hole" through the stack, which we'd visually maybe see as a "bridge". Like the tourist destination "natural bridge" that collapsed.

The hardness is why it's so hard to dig on Aruba, and why there's so thin a soil covering that it's a semi-arid desert as far as vegetation and the critters that subsist there.

TMI yet?  

That was what I was thinking ALSO Grammies.. It seems from the terrain
of the island that the natural bridges are located on outside of island due
to rockier outer edge of island where the bigger sandier beaches are on hotel side

Why is this bone being given media coverage when they usually just throw them away?

I think we should wait and see.  I don't think the FBI or anybody is going to go through the hurricane but there is the one already close by, where is it, Barbabas?  The one Dompig says ruined the investigation?  They should be close enough but the bone could be very old we are told.

Also please recall that the Carib Indians were cannibals, too, so there is likely lots of human bones in the area.
I mean other than in cemeteries, etc.

.

Received this email also about the bone 24ora is reporting:

Hi Klaasend,
 
early this morning human bones were found off the north coast.
24ora says they must have been there for many years, buried and that
rough seas dug it out.
 
I thought maybe you'd want to keep an eye on that story.

The map that Granny posted a link for shows Boca Chiquito. It is just to the right of the Alto Vista chapel. Interestingly, it IS near the gold mine ruins.

Here's the map Granny posted, again:

http://www.caribline.com/islands/ar/armap.shtml (http://www.caribline.com/islands/ar/armap.shtml)

An excellent question.  I just wonder what kind of spin it will be on things found this time?   :smt009

(http://www.bucuticam.com/tarabeach.jpg)

you can clearly see in this picture how HIGH the tides are in Aruba
this beach shot says it all

Well gee of course they would say buried for years, Maybe they will find out it is Bud Larson still missing on that island

It is merely a "Sea Donkey".

Janet,

This is why I don't think there will ever be a prosecution of this case no matter what evidence is found.  The Prosecutor has to deem it in the public interest to bring something to trial.

The only way I can imagine that she would in this instance would be if the boycott were in fact hurting tourism so badly that prosecuting the case in court was deemed a solution to that.

Otherwise, I don't think we will ever see any trial no matter what ALE, KLPD, FBI or whomever finds.

Apparently, their judicial system, from what I can gather, is not about LAWS but about the COMMON GOOD of the public.  I don't think it even requires exactly a cover up.  They just don't prosecute.  I don't know what all these other options supposedly available to the prosecution are but would sure like to know about them.

We are a nation of laws and not men.  This is not true of all places.

JMO
.

Well, they are oddly calling these HUMAN for some reason.  Before it took forensic experts to determine and yet this time, they have on the spot analysis?

STAGED is a word that comes to my mind but not quite sure what is being staged.  Another wild goose chase, most likely.
.

 :lol:

Funny you should say that.  First thing that came to mind was how recently we were told the boys merely disposed of her body after she OD'd herself.  I doubt cocaine is tored in the bones so it's not very likely.  Sad, that we even have to think along those lines.

By now I am thinking Aruban prosecutors will not be the ones to determine prosecution of the NH case.  It has gone far beyond that as the coverup itself gave itself over to a different venue and forum.        jack/b

I said "Sea Donkey" because the last bone found they claimed it was from a donkey. :roll:

I was wondering the same thing: Dr. Baden has said in the past that any experienced Physician could easily tell the difference between human and animal bones. So, I guess they've been determined to be human.

I wish we could ask Jossy what the scoop is.

If these bones, according to Klaas's e-mail were buried and then washed out by waves, maybe it's some indication that Nat's remains would still exist even if in the water.

Wreck,

Yes, donkeys, monkeys, dogs, donkey in dumpster, odd things seem to happen in Aruba along the lines of the local animal life.

HI and WELCOME, Jackb!!

I don't think Aruban authorities will ever prosecute this case either.

JACK,

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a360/AnnaBlueSkies/Greetings/Prayer%20Thanks%20Compliment/th1116340351.gif)

I sure hope you are right as I don't think Aruba will ever prosecute this case no matter what kind of evidence is presented.

This business about not being in the greater interest of the public is very troubling to me as I thought justice and prosecution was about laws and not about public interest.

The Dutch recently did extradite a terrorist suspect but they are still holding one believed to be connected to 9-1-1 because they don't respect our system with the death penalty.  Not sure what they would do about much of anything.

JMO
.

none of the links in here will work for me,  :-|Help!!!

Wasn't the picture that shows a blanket (blue) hanging by the side of cliff. very close to the "baby bridge' close to the fallen bridge? 

JuJu - what do you mean?  If it's a forum issue maybe you should email Dugga?  dugga@scaredmonkeys.com

Or if you explain more maybe it's something I can fix or help with?

Yes, I believe so

Thanks Klaas....when i click on any of the links posted here, even the one you have for the front page nothing happens.....

IIRC Weren't there pics of the natural bridge posted at the Aruba's Silence site and didn't she go to Aruba to look for what she thought was a bone found by that bridge?

I am inclined to think if it was more than one bone (and it seems so at this time) that they were uncovered by ocean activity.  If a single bone washed up, it would seem to be that it could be from anywhere.)  This could be an uncovered body. This could prove interesting.      jack/b

Yes about Aruba's Silence site and the bone.

Odd that links aren't working for you.  I'll see if there's anything odd in your profile stopping it, like a setting.

who knows how many of Aruba's dirty little secrets Dean will wash up

Juju - I don't see any settings in your profile that would stop you from being able to click on links.  It has to be a setting or block on your PC.  If you email Dugga he might know right away what the problem is.

dugga@scaredmonkeys.com

I would start by simply closing and re-opening your browser. Then re-boot if that doesn't clear things up.

thanks Klaas

Bone or Bones?

Granny says "bones"  -- MF says "bone."

Igsigs - according to the email I received from an Aruban front page poster, BONES.  But he/she is simply reporting what 24ora is saying.  I don't think we really know for sure yet.

If the location is where indicated, it is SW.  Area is quite desolate in places towards San Nicholas.  Which would make it a likely place for someone wanting to work in the quiet of the night/ early morning.    jack/b

Jack - I think Nut44x4 was guessing and the link is the wrong location. All other reports say the north end of the island which would be near Arashi and the Lighthouse.

TY wreck & Klaas. Guess we will have to wait it out...

I just hope this is not one of those things that we never hear about ever again!
.

They have probably already given it to "Boeti" to make soup.   :-|

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/ArubaBone081707.jpg)

Also, keep in mind that a Venezuelan airliner crashed just off the coast a few years back.  I doubt recovery from that was very good.

Just something to keep in mind.
.

I thought it crashed on land?

http://www.nysun.com/article/18724

August 17, 2005 Edition > Section: Foreign > Printer-Friendly Version

Venezuela Airplane Crash Kills 160
BY CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER - Associated Press
August 17, 2005

 
MACHIQUES, Venezuela - A chartered jet filled with tourists returning home to the French Caribbean island of Martinique crashed in western Venezuela yesterday, killing all 160 people on board. The pilot had been attempting an emergency landing after both engines failed, officials said.

Wreckage was strewn across a remote wooded area among cattle ranches near Machiques, 400 miles west of Caracas close to the border with Colombia just east of the Sierra de Perija mountain range. From above, only the tail of the West Caribbean Airways plane could be seen intact, lying amid charred trees.

Rescuers pulled dozens of bodies from the site, and recovered one of the plane's black boxes, which could give clues to the cause of the crash, the search and rescue chief, Air Force Major Javier Perez, said. He said the cockpit voice recorder had not been found.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Ve-crash-map.png)

You are right, Klaas, crashed on land but I remember that being given as a reason for the arm/hand bone being on the shoreline.  I was basing my comment on that.  The one that is probably a monkey.

So I thought it must have crashed along the coast. 

Sorry, don't mean to confuse!

.

OT: L.L. World Series

Mexico beats the Netherlands (Apeldoorn) 11-1 in 4 innings. (Mercy rule applied)

ETA: Curacao was runner-up in 05. (Yes, i remember posting about it at the time. How long have we been here?) :cyclops:

Now the bones were 'washed up' (bones) at the Northern tip near the Calif lighthouse and not towards the lighthouse at the Southern end of the island (Colorado)?  Venesuela is to the Eastern part of the island, in a northerly direction, but East.  The other arm bone found in Venesuela, was a human arm bone.  It had a thumb socket where humans have.  Also what appears to be a ring on the hand.  The armbone would not have made the newspaper had it been a monkey bone.  Jack/b

Gee, that's too bad  :lol:

Again I have to reiterate - because I have contributed to some confusion - Granny did NOT say "bones" she said "bone" (singular) ... I mis-stated her very clear and patient translation.

But klaas - I think the map link Granny posted should be posted if you will? First, it's a good map - I've seen it before but don't have it saved. Second, it shows Boca Chiquito, which I think is likely the location. Rather than the northern end of the island. I reposted it a page or two back.

Here's a link to a map that shows Boca Chiquito. Near Alto Vista chapel. And the mine ruins.

http://www.caribline.com/islands/ar/armap.shtml (http://www.caribline.com/islands/ar/armap.shtml)

FYI - this is what I was told via email from an Aruban

Hi Klaasend,
 
early this morning human bones were found off the north coast.
24ora says they must have been there for many years, buried and that
rough seas dug it out.


I thought maybe you'd want to keep an eye on that story.


(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/BocaChiquito2.jpg)

Wasnt PVDS seen driving in that area early one morning by fred golba before the search started that day? I thought it was on the road by the Alto Vista Chapel?? This happened the day after the belt was found.

I think one could bet - ok, bet the farm,  :lol:  that if there are any KLPD on that island, he/she will be laying claim on the finding(s) for testing.  I personally think they would like to see this case solved. A feather in their hat.  :roll:

This map is showing South end up.  Colorado lighthouse is at the south end of the island and St. Nicholas is on the south (almost)western part of the island.  It would help to have a compass on there showing the map upside down.  California lighthouse is at the North part of the island away from where the bones are said to have been either uncovered or washed to shore.  If, as I said there is more than one bone, it is likely uncovered.  jack/b

Okay, I've gone back and re-read several things and I think I've figured this out.

Here is the story in 24.ora (emphasis added by msmarple):

24ora.com  http://www.24ora.com/ (http://24ora.com  http://www.24ora.com/)

Weso humano a wordo haña na costa

Online Pap translation of headline above:
bone human owing to wordo find at costa


This is the online Pap translation of the article:
 
we owing to compronde cu today morning trempan at costa north of aruba bone owing to wordo find. the wesonan here owing to wordo find just near of the bridge chiquito at costa. the wesonan will have to have enough year eynan end but tawata bow ground. the lama bruto cu have now will have to owing to coba for so the wesonan can owing to wordo see. the first informa is tell cu they will have to is bone human. soon more informacion y imagen!

< end >

When the article originally was posted, the "headline" was not included.

I later posted JUST the headline because it clearly states (I *think*) "human bone found on coast." From the translation of the article, it's hard to determine whether it's SURELY human, or waiting to be determined.

However, the headline uses the word "Weso" which is singular. Granny posted:



Within the article, the word "wesonan" is used several times, so that indicates bones, plural.

The headline uses the word "weso," which indicates one bone.

Klaas has an email that says "bones."

MF says "bone."

Same old same old - too little information, too confusing!

 :sad:  Do you realize that this is 24ora?  They will soon update the "news flash" with pictures, and there will be no denying the find!  They don't hold anything back! 

Hello Old and Crabby.. ..
:)
Don't be that, be Young and Happy . :2doh:
:)
This bone thing could be anything or anyone, I get old and crabby whne I think of how long this goes on and on and on. One of the comments on the site where this was posted says ..  :roll: here comes trouble ... :roll:. or something like that !

jackb - That is the California lighthouse at the tip of the island on the left.

If you click the link to the map, there's a directional pointer. It is definitely the north, west, coast.

Speaking of HATs....did you guys see his post the other day???
 
Natalee Holloway / Natalee Holloway / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #677 8/12 - 8/16/2007  on: August 16, 2007, 04:01:50 AM 

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2023.msg269068#msg269068
Hat posted>

family members of "first degree"?

I think that was his first post since June of 30th 2005!!! And that is all he said...

LOL. I took the oldencrabby from my adorable little grandbaby who thinks Hallmark's Maxine is me. I have a very large collection of Maxine "stuff" and she always says "That's you Nanna!"   :shock:

I know this could be anything. The storm could bring, the storm could take. Everyone is just so anxious for news - good news - that I think we would almost jump at anything. It has been too long and needs resolved for the family and friends of Natalee.

I see we now can tell if someone is on or off line. Kool. Dugga ?

Well Old and Crabby, you are a GrandMa... me too ! !
The little kiddos keep a person young, why I am getting younger every day ! !
As long as they keep making Strawberry Blonde hair color I can get away with this !

This map is upside down.  If the bones were found near Colorado Light House, and Arashi, then they were found at the Southern end of the island.  One the Southwestern side.           jack (for the love of Pete) b

Again, here is a link to a map that shows Boca Chiquito, which is where we think the bone(s) turned up. It is in C-5 of the grid.

Use the scroll bar to see directional arrow or to orient yourself to other points on the island.

http://www.caribline.com/islands/ar/armap.shtml (http://www.caribline.com/islands/ar/armap.shtml)

It is interesting that this is around the place where the bloody security shirt and other evidence was bagged up and roped off.    jack/b

I am sorry, guess I was thinking that said Colorado.  The old bubbles are tired.        jack/b

JackB,  I think it the California light house by Arashi beach and that is to the north as shown on this map. (which is positioned correctly)  I believe that Colorado light house is to the south and not shown on this map. 

I believe I am correct about this.

California is north; Colorado is south.  I may have looked at the map and thought I saw Colorado light house when I was looking at something else.  Missed a lot of sleep.  My bubbles are tired.  Sorry.    jack/b

My bubbles are always tired! :2doh:

Would this be the dunes where KLPD was reportedly snooping around earlier?

24ora probably doesn't publish on Sundays, ugh...have to wait till Monday too see if they ssay anymore.

Interesting the report they are OLD bones, How the hell would they know
being out in the elements could give the effect of being older..
Sheesh how many bodies they got floating around that damn island??
I think it is critical that the FBI be able to study the bones along with
folks that specialize in bones and stuff.. NO stone must be unturned
If this could be potentially Natalee then every effect must be made
to make sure or rule it out

that is so funny...my neice always sends me Maxine cards...we were at the beach last week and we saw a woman that looked just like maxine....we laughed til we cried

corrected above to mean EFFORT

Possible but if the bone (s) washed ashore in Boca Chiquito not as close to the Lighthouse as I had thought.  Hopefully we'll get clarification.

Actually they do report on Sundays if they have anything to report.  I think that's why they call themselves 24ora?

 :-? Ramm's avylooks like the symbol for Caribbean Mercantile Bank  :-?

http://www.cmbnv.com/

I wonder if Koen will sleep with his Mommy tonight and if Guido will pee the bed...

JuJu, that was me, and yes I did.  It wasn't a bone though, theres alot of driftwood there.  However the Blanket that was found on Easter, is right near the Natural Bridge, and the Baby bridge, and I am wondering if "Dean" finally got to it also.  We all know Arubans didn't do it.

OH, lol...cool!

Yes it does.  It's actually the emblem for the Royal Dutch Army I believe.

Yes

EEEEK - take a look at the front page of 24ora now (the breaking news has moved to the 2nd page).  WARNING - very graphic:

http://www.24ora.com/content/blogcategory/6/8/

WOW must be another suicide :roll:

The one that looked like a tarp? I remember.

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/bodyblanket1.jpg)

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/bodyblanket.jpg)

Hotshot who is "Dean?"

(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h294/gummy_2006/968440857107_0_BG.jpg)

(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h294/gummy_2006/blanket.jpg)

Now my daughter is bumping me from the computer.  I will check back in an hour to see updates....

Dean is the storm attacking the caribbian (sp) right now.  I'll be back soon.

OH...that Dean... :2doh: :2doh:

I have learned a lot from your site and I think you really stuck your neck out in going to Aruba....you have really worked hard on this case and I think it is admirable

ACKKKKK...I just saw it  :shock:
(I was thinking the same thing... :cool:)

Klaas....have you been reading the comments on the bone find article?? Interesting stuff. Also...did you see my 'HAT' POST EARLIER?

Looks like ONE HAPPY ISLAND!!!!!!!!!!

Yes and yes!  :lol:

He must have beaten himself about the head.   Interesting tattoo. Rings a bell for some reason.  :smt102

Head in Sand

Requests on 24ora to STOP coverage of bone find - fear of negative reaction...image.

That looks to be one serious head wound. Curious red mark across his throat, too.

The tattoo looks like an ankh.
http://www.swagga.com/ankh.htm (http://www.swagga.com/ankh.htm)

igsigs - are you seeing that in the 24ora Comments, or reading it at another site?

24ora comments section. Concerns about Nancy Grace (still?), FOX, etc...

Just how myopic are these ppl?  NG hasn't said anything in for ever about this story...

DIARIO Aruba
10/29/2005

ORANJESTAD (AAN): There has been a lot of cristicism about the fact that a tourist found something resembling a human bone on the beach a little to the North of the Fisherman’s Huts and that after handing it over to police…he heard nothing more of it. A few American TV channels questioned this day and night and no one in Aruba wanted to give a response.

There are now details relating to this issue. It is now known that the bone was found around the boat Baboo II in Malmok. Apparently a person discovered the bone and had indications that it could be human.

The discovered bone was handed over to High Commissioner Ronnie Bernadina in connection to the disappearance of the American student, Natalee Holloway.

It is known that for some months there has been an investigation about the location of the American girl. Related to this, there have been a few detention while all of these suspects have now been set free.

Searches on our island have been organized by foreigners and also locals. They have presented themselves with sophisticated machines to look in certain areas of the sea for any trace. However, so far no trace has been found.

Nevertheless, Natalee’s family continues to search because they want to find where their daughter is located.

The bone that was previously found, according to reports, was examined by local experts to verify if it could be part of a human being. According to reports, the bone could be a few months or years old, but experts will be able to determine this based on their investigation which is taking place in the institute located in Rijks Laboratorium in Holland.

Paul Reyolds - Natalee’s Uncle
PAULA ZAHN
July 14, 2005

REYNOLDS: Right, the Van Der Sloot’s private property, which I think is a very important area to be searched.

And then tonight, in talking to EquuSearch, I have found out that last week, I think it was last Wednesday, that two tourists were scuba diving and found two bones, which they turned over to the police a week ago. The police have done nothing with that. They did not notify EquuSearch, the search team who had forensic divers on the island at that time. What a perfect opportunity for them to go investigate that site.

But their response as to why they’ve done nothing with those bones in over a week was because the person that could examine them was unavailable, on vacation or out of the country or something of that nature. Unbelievable! I just hate to think that the entire investigation is being handled in that same manner.

ZAHN: Paul, we haven’t been able to independently confirm what you’re saying tonight. But what would be the motivation of the Aruban government to hold back in the investigation of these bones, above and beyond the fact that they say the guy that does this kind of work is on vacation?

REYNOLDS: You know it’s hard to say. When you keep saying things like that, you know we’ve talked in the past about inexperience. But sometimes you have to wonder if it’s a design and you know we’re not sure who’s making these decisions, but it’s certainly hindering the investigation.

The following excerpt was taken from the letter which Art Wood sent to the Attorney General of Aruba on behalf of Dave, Robin, Beth and Jug … the letter requesting that the Natalee Holloway investigation team be replaced.

Janet


Date: November 1,2005

To: Theresa Croes Fernandez-Pedra
Attorney General Of Aruba
Havenstrat 2
Orangestad,Aruba

From Arthur F. Wood
Dave and Robin Holloway
Beth and Jug Twitty

Dear Attorney General:

<snipped>

In early July 2005, a tourist found a bone on the beach with flesh intact, just south of the California lighthouse area. The tourist advised that the bone, which appeared to be a shoulder bone, was turned into the Noord Police Station.

This tourist contacted Dave Holloway approximately ten days after giving the bone to the Noord Police to inquire as to the results of the find. Dave Holloway was unaware that a bone had been found and advised the tourist to contact the Noord Police Station for the results. He also inquired the FBI as to what they had been told about the bone. The FBI told Dave that they had heard nothing about a bone being found and that the Aruban Investigative team was unaware of a bone being found.

Further inquiry only added to the confusion regarding this bone as Dennis Jacobs said that a donkey bone and a fish bone were found. Another investigator from the team advised that a human bone was found but that it was to old to have been from Natalee.

In August, I asked Roy Tromp about the bone and he said he was unaware of any bone being found.

It is not hard for one to imagine the uncertainty in the mind of a parent searching for his missing daughter, hearing that a bone was found, contacting the investigative team and being given an array of confusing answers. The question in Dave Holloway’s mind remains. Was the bone that the tourist found and thought of as a human shoulder bone ever taken to the medical examiner? Was it photographed, Where is it now, and could it have been from Natalee Holloway?

<snipped>

Sincerley,
Arthur E. Wood

Signed and in agreement
Dave Holloway
Robin Holloway
Beth Twitty
Jug Twitty

copy to:

The Honorable Nelson Oduber, Prime Miniser of Aruba
Rudy Croes Minister of Justice Aruba
Helen Lejuez ( attorney for Beth Twitty)
Vinda DeSousa ( attorney for Dave Holloway)
The Honorable Bob Riley, Governor of Alabama
Condoleesa Rice, U.S. Secretary of State.

Thank you msmarple. I recall reading about ancient Egypt and talisman, but it seems to me that symbol may have been important on a case I have been interested in.  Again -  :smt102    :)

Janet - thank you for continuing to post those old articles!

Klaas ... you are welcome.

Janet

      Remembering that specific incident brings back such anger.  So many things were happening, a few tourists were finding pieces of what could very well have been evidence.   Where did it all go???  The duct tape with the blonde hair, sun glasses, ..
 Graphic as it is to speak of, a bone, washing up on the beach, with flesh still on it good God...it was somebody.... And the police deny it, just days later.

       That blue tarp on the rocks, wasn't that photographed shortly after the retraction that Natalee had been found?   Another smokescreen, distraction??

     You are a wealth of information my Canadian Friend? :smt052

Good Night Auntiem.  Good Night All.

Janet

8:20 PM

Amigoe in Dutch reported that minister Briessen (tourism) had had meetings with a dutch TV producer who frequents the island for holidays (3 to 4 times a year) and who now wants to make a 13 part documentary about the island. Which he also wants to be publised on DVD so that the tourism industry can use it for promotional purposes.

No need guessing how that documentary is going to be  :roll: nothing but positives  :roll:

instead of putting money and effort into spinning media, Briessen and his countrymen/women should actually try and improve Aruba itself instead of trying to make it look better through media spinning.

Well, maybe they will attract Dutch tourists.

By the way, Ramm, do you support the boycott so many of us here subscribe to?
.

my opinion is rather too complex to put into 1 or 2 lines so I wrote a little section about it in my opinions blog:

http://rammsteinsopinions.blogspot.com/

Are you kidding me?? Well good for you as I wouldn't reccomend derailing a travel show thread here at SM like you did at BFN. BTW: Very well done today at BFN Ramm..You did very well!!

Well, Ramm, you certainly have stated your thoughts in an orderly manner.

In light of the government of Aruba owning the hotel buildings, lots of them, I think the tourism boycott is a good approach if we could make it more effective.

Economic sanctions like not selling certain items could also hurt the wrong people but at this point, since they demonstrate about turtle eggs, the people of Aruba could have demonstrated for Natalee as well.  Instead they accused her of "dancing in Brazil" and things like that so I guess I don't have much sympathy for them either.

The hurt on any people of any sector is on those who committed this crime in any event, not those who exercise their right to chose another vacation destination. 

Some boycotts have been extremely successful in this country and are the bane of major corporations.  So if we could get a few more of your ideas enacted as well, it might become in the public interest to prosecute this.

And that is my next question, what is all this business about the Prosecution will not prosecute unless he deems it in the best interest of the public to do so?  Is it about the public interest or the rule of law?  I am totally flummoxed by reading that in the explanation of Dutch law Easywriter provided.

that is true. The DA will only prosecute if it is in the best interest of the public.

Example: A battered woman kills her husband out of self defense when he tries to kill her. The norm is that all people who kill someone are brought for a judge and he/she will decide if it was justifiable or not. But when the evidence is so overwhelming and it is so obvious that she did have no other choice, how does it serve the public interest if she is put through the ordeal of a trial?

Other example (I read about this today): 2 young girls (minors) had defiled a warmemorial with paint. Now normally the law says prosecute. The prosecutor had both of the girls do a work-project and a presentation about the second world war. They had to make one and do a presentation for him to see if they had done enough work and to see if they had learned something about the second world war.

The prosecutor was convinced they had learned their lesson and after the girls had put a flower arrangement at the war memorial the prosecution and the city where the monument was situated agreed that this was sufficient.

In this case the prosecutor too decided that it did not serve the public interest to go through a trial



Example: a man committed armed robbery 12 years ago, he now confesses because he is lying in hospital terminally ill with only months of agony left. The prosecutor would then most likely decide that it would not be in the public interest to hold a trial for this man.

Good Morning Tyler.  :)

But, *******, it has allowed him to 'perfect' his English  :wink:

Very different from the syntax I remember reading at BFN over a year ago.

Although the song is the same one.

btw -- congrats, ******* :smt052

Since when did the administration of justice ceased to be about the victim and become all about the accused?  Since when did the prosecutor become the judge?  Since when did the prosecutor become the advocate for the accused?  Who speaks on behalf of the victim?  Obviously ... the best interest of the public has nothing to do with justice for the victim.

I'm not defending anyone else's laws, but I'm not sure that this is all that different from our laws.  The prosecutor has a right to review the case and determine that a homocide was justifiable and refuse to bring charges.

I was thinking the same thing, Ree. In particular, there is the case of Mary Winkler who killed her husband and was essentially let go. Also, our local legal system often gives alternative sentences, particularly in the case of young people. They will have them do some sort of community service, as opposed to serving jail time. Perhaps the Dutch legal system is not as mysterious as we sometimes think, but maybe the terminology is much different and confusing to us.

Good morning, all!

Yes, I think Aruba greatly flatters itself that all the media will ever come back.  Unfortunately for them, it left with the worst possible impression of the island.

Now we have Geraldo and BOR updating it as a place for little besides drugs and prostitution.  They had a big chance with that much attention focused on their small island and did little to utilize it in a positive way.

It is my understanding that in the United States and Canada ... the prosecutor's responsibility is to gather the evidence that a crime has been committed.  It is then the prosecutor's decision or a grand jury's ruling whether there is enough evidence to proceed with a trial ... not to determine whether the crime was justified.  The guilt or  innocence of the accused is either decided by a trial by judge or ... a trial by jury.  Once guilt has been decided ... then the judge has the power to either sentence ... or release on probation/condition if the public is not at risk.  In other words ... the victim of the crime is given a voice.

Janet

That's true, Ree, and which laws to apply.  The difference that I see here is that the Prosecutor has the right to totally ignore what the laws require in the interest of the public good.

Our prosecutors have to act only within what is allowed by law.  Apparently, under Dutch law, the entire case can be scrapped if not in the public interest to take it to court.

Also saw only something like 5% of felonies reported to the police ever make it to court.  That seems like a very low number to me.

And it mentions "other options" available to the prosecutor.  I want to know more about what those options are and how they apply in cases like this one.

BT ... the prosecutor/grand jury (?) in the Mary Winkler case made the decision that there was enough evidence against Mary to proceed with a trial.  The DEFENCE ATTORNEYS gave the accused a voice ... the PROSECUTOR gave the victim a voice and ... a JURY made the decision based on what evidence was presented by both sides.  The JUDGE then sentenced accordingly.

Janet 

Janet,
The Prosecutor under Dutch law is apparently supposed to be sort of neutral, that is allegedly after the truth equally for the suspects as well as for the victim.

Since in a case like this, the victim is not represented by a team of attorneys already looking out for their interest, it would seem to be tremendously one-sided in favor of the suspects.

No one is assigned to look out for just the victim. 

And with an abnormal interest in how much money the family of the victim may have as well.

crimes against money interests are always prosecuted vigorously.  crimes against govt. officials and big shots are always prosecuted vigorously.  crimes again women and children really don't warrant spending money and time investigating and prosecuting.  crimes again tourists ?  never happens on aruba. impossible.  anything that happens to tourists are the fault of the tourist, so that makes it an accident.  "vanishments" happen to tourists sometimes but it's always, always, the tourists fault.  he/she's in hiding, it's an insurance scam, or a suicide and self burial.  the main thing to remember about tourists is that they go to the happy island, disrupt people's lives by laughing, having fun, dancing, meeting other people and having more fun, and just not worth the effort unless they have money in their hands.  tourists go home when their money runs out, that's the way they like it on the happy island.
dennisintn

But it does explain why there has never been one bit of effort to bring this to trial in what we would consider a normal manner.

And what about the rights of the Security Guards?  The Prosecutor certainly had no such concerns about their rights. 

Seems far too much power in the hands of far too few.

[quote

And what about the rights of the Security Guards?  The Prosecutor certainly had no such concerns about their rights. 

Seems far too much power in the hands of far too few.
[/quote]


you said a mouthful of truth right there.  if you compare side by side the actions a.l.e. took against the security guards, and the actions (or inactions) in the actions against j2k, you'd think they were the actions of two completely different organizations from beginning to end.  favoritism and internal manipulation sticks out from every opening in the way j2k was treated.
dennisintn

Anna ... when you consider the conflicts of interest that existed in regards to Paulus van der Sloot's professional/personal relationships within the prosecutor's office, the ALE, the Aruban/Dutch administrations and the judiciary .... the door was left wide open for the abuse of power ... an abuse of power to protect a collegue/friend and his son from implication in the disappearance of eighteen years old American citizen.  Justice for Natalee Holloway was not about to prevail ... the writing was on the wall from day one.

Janet


Beth Twitty
'Scarborough Country'
October 21, 2005

HOLLOWAY TWITTY: They never—they never wanted to implicate these three young men. They never wanted to implicate them from the beginning. And there is a list of reasons, you know, why we know that is true


Paulus van der Sloot
NOVA
June 28, 2005

JUDICIARY

Reporter (Twan Huys): Which function do you have here at the island? Because many stories go around about that. What is your function?
 
Paulus van der Sloot: I am a replacing member of the joint court of justice of the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba [1] and I am appointed for a period of three years, from January the first, 2003, until January the first, 2006.
 
Reporter (Twan Huys): So, you are replacement judge?
 
Paulus van der Sloot: Yes.

PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE
 
Reporter (Twan Huys): Do you know the people very well, for example, the people here from the public prosecutors' office that ordered your detention?

Paulus van der Sloot: Yes, for sure, because, before that, I have worked for eight years as chief of the cabinet of the prosecutor general [2].

Reporter (Twan Huys): So, you also know the current prosecutor general?
 
Paulus van der Sloot: Yes.
 
Reporter (Twan Huys): Mrs. Croes.
 
Paulus van der Sloot: Yes.

ARUBAN LAW ENFORCEMENT
 
Reporter (Twan Huys): Yes, and what does that mean when your colleagues stop by to arrest you?

Paulus van der Sloot: That gives a feeling of absurdity. It is indeed almost unimaginable that by someone you actually know very well, where you worked together with for a long time, that that one comes to tell you that you are suspected of complicity to murder.

Reporter (Twan Huys): Who was that in your case?

Paulus van der Sloot: That was, in this case, that was the leader of the team of police commissioners.
 
Reporter (Twan Huys): Jan van der Straaten.

Paulus van der Sloot: That was Jan van der Straaten, yes.
 
Reporter (Twan Huys): And you know each other very well?

Paulus van der Sloot: Yes.

Translation Credit: Dugo - Riehl Worldview


Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
October 4, 2005

GRACE: … Jossy, regarding the connection, what I perceived to be a close connection between the judge, Paulus Van Der Sloot and the retired chief of police who initially handled Natalee`s case, Van Der Stratten, were they friends?

MANSUR: Of course, they were friends. It stands to reason they were friends because Paul Van Der Sloot had many friends within the police department; he had many friends within the Department of Justice. And he had many friends with -- and he was friendly with all the judges in Aruba. He worked out of the same office as they did and did the same work

REGARDING BONES FOUND -

I grew up at a beach and we were always finding things that had washed ashore and never thought twice about them.  Imagine now, living on an island where things wash ashore all the time.  There could be evidence of Natalee lying on a beach somewhere is Aruba or Venezuela, just being ignored by the locals.

ARGGGHHHHH!!

Prosecutors sre maing those decisions.  I found numerous examples, but below is one where a special prosecutor (who happens to be a judge) made that decision:

For Immediate Release
Special prosecutor announces decisions on use of force cases
Mayor Jackson, Director Triozzi and Judge Connally to provide comments at 2:30 p.m. in the Red Room, Cleveland City Hall, 601 Lakeside Avenue.
 
June 6, 2006 – On April 6, Mayor Frank G. Jackson and Law Director Robert Triozzi appointed retired Judge C. Ellen Connally as a special prosecutor to focus on resolving four ”use of force” cases that resulted in fatalities. Since that time, a fifth case was delivered to the Prosecutor’s Office for resolution.

Judge Connally examined all of the forensic evidence, interviewed witnesses and family members, reviewed all documents and photographs and met with officials from the County Coroner’s office, reviewed and applied the controlling legal authority to conduct an extensive review of each case.

The United States Supreme Court, in describing the test that must be used in determining whether the use of deadly force is justified provides that there must be an objective test to be judged from the perspective a reasonable officer on the scene, rather that with the 20/20 vision of hindsight.

Today, Judge Connally announced her findings in all five cases.

In the matter of the death of Eren Y. Beyah on March 3, 2004, no charges will be filed against the officers and Judge Connelly ruled the use of force justifiable.
In the matter of the death of Brandon McCloud on August 31, 2005, no charges will be filed against the officers. Judge Connally has determined that the outcome, while tragic, is within the bounds of the use of deadly force guidelines as set forth by the Cleveland Division of Police, the Courts and the United States and Ohio Constitutions.
In the matter of the death of Laray Renshaw on September 30, 2005, no charges will be filed against the officers and Judge Connelly ruled the use of force justifiable. In the matter of the death of David Crenshaw on October 20, 2005, no charges will be filed against the officers and Judge Connelly ruled the use of force justifiable.
In the matter of the death of Angelo Ferguson on December 11, 2005, no charges will be filed against the officers and Judge Connelly ruled the use of force justifiable.
 

Rees ... I am off to church right now but ... will return later on today and ... will respond to your response.  :)   

Later, Janet

9:55 AM

WHAT???????????    Where are you getting your legal information from?  No Prosecutor has the right to JUDGE whether a homicide was justifiable or not.  A Prosecutor's job is to make sure enough that there is enough evidence to bring to a Grand Jury in order to obtain an inditement (sp?)   and hence bring the accused to trial.

    The Prosecutor in NO way makes a judgment of guilt or innocense!!!   Such was the folly of District Attorney Nifong, who determined, the three Duke Lacrosse players were guilty, without ANY evidence.....He acted in the role of Judge not Prosecutor and got his fanny disbarred.

Bottom line about this "public interest" approach to prosecute or not - On Aruba, anything that might be perceived as detrimental to tourism will not be pursued, for that reason.

I think we all GOT that memo a while back.

And I haven't seen any indication that Aruba has taken a proactive approach to eliminating activity that might have led to Natalee's disappearance.

Is the drinking age being enforced? Gambling age? Is anybody working undercover at C&C's (for example) re. drugged drinks? Any arrests for dealing date-rape drugs?

JVDS and Satish should not have been at the Holiday Inn casino, or at C&C's ...

     Judge C. Ellen Connally, retired as a Suprem Court Judge of Ohio in 2004.  In 2006, due to the resignation of Cleveland's Chief Prosecutor, Ms. Connally was asked to temporarilly serve as a Special Prosecutor in order to bring  closure  to four pending death cases involving police and the use of "necessary" or unnecssary force.   She was not Acting as a Judge, she was retired........She was not sitting on the bench during this trial!!!!   There is no such thing as a Prosecutor/Judge.   

          Many Prosecutors go on to become Judges.   Many also become defense attorneys, as that is far more lucrative!!!!!! :smt077

A Prosecutor can't decide guilt but CAN decide whether or not to bring charges (so they can essentially decide innocence)

     To investigate these crimes and then to Prosecute the criminals,( besides housing,  feeding them & then paying them their stipend for time served) would be an economic burden on the Aruban Public......it would NOT be in their best interest!!!!!



   

I agree msmarple.

this is the island of aruba.  police and f.b.i. reports are routinely handed over to our equivalent of the chamber of commerce, but a.l.e. can't keep the victim's family updated because it isn't allowed under their laws.  
this is the island where police reports to media are o.k.'ed by ahata and ata before they're allowed to be given.
this is the island that makes announcements to other caribbean nations how difficult it is to have one message for the local media and an entirely different one for american media. use your own discretion to figure out what that means.
this is the island that was all helpful and friendly to the victim's family until the two security guards were released from suspicion and the spotlight focused on the privileged and pampered children of "people of influence" on the island.
there are not going to be any new laws passed or old laws enforced that might inconvenience the pursuit of tourists and their money.  a certain percentage of these tourists would not come if they couldn't be assured of not being hassled in their pursuit of drugs, prostitution, and other minor sins such as money laundering.
dennisintn

        They cannot decide innocence.......they must determine IF they have enough evidence to bring to a Grand Jury......They are not in this alone.....they are not the "gatherers" of evidence.   They work with the Police, the main providers of evidence.

  If you want to get technical, and say they can hide evidence as in Aruba...sure they can do that.......that is called CORRUPTION!!!!!!

I said they "essentially" can determine innocense. They do have the power to decide whether to prosecute or take a case to Grand Jury.

   A Prosecutor is a Government official, who's job it is to bring to Justice the defendant charged with a criminal offense.   In other words he/she is the attorney for the victim.

they can also decide who to give a favorable plea bargain and who not.

That is true, BUT all plea Bargains must be approved by a judge.

   You said  they essentially can decide whether a suspect is "innocent".  They cannot.  They must bring him to a Grand Jury if they have substantial evidence.  If substantial evidence is not found, the suspect may not be indited at that point in time, however, he is not declared innocent. He can, and MUST be brought in front of a Grand Jury if in the future substantial evidence IS found.  
         It is the Prosecutor's job to see that suspects accused of a crime are investigated, and when the evidence is substantial their job is to see that the criminal is convicted!!!!

   You are correct on the Plea bargaining, Wreck. :)   Now, Ramm is an expert on American Juris Prudence??? :2doh:

Well, we just disagree then. Yes, a Prosecutor SHOULD prosecute when the evidence is present. In high profile cases, there will be a lot of public scrutiny of their decisions. In many cases of "not so much public awareness" -- decisions to prosecute or not are made every day.

The People.

In the United States and Canada the prosecutor has a responsibility to act on behalf of the victim.  If the prosecutor is acting ethically ... she/he is not going to disregard ANY evidence that will uphold that purpose.  It is only when she cannot obtain the required evidence to prosecute the acccused that it is determined that the case cannot go to trial.

Wreck ... as we are being led to believe in regards to Dutch law ... in Canada and the United States ... the prosecutor is not a  power unto her/himself.  Disclosure is granted to the family of the victim and ... if the family believes that the prosecutor did not act in the best interest of the victim by refusing to pursue the case ... her/his decision not to prosecute can be appealed.

I just obtained this info from my hubby's nephew who is a practicing defence attorney ... specializing in criminal law ... in the province of British Columbia, Canada.

Janet

Everyone is misunderstanding me. The Prosecutor is legally charged with the responsibility to prosecute where there is evidence of a crime. The prosecutor makes a decision of each and every case whether to prosecute or not. Everyone of these cases is subject to PUBLIC scrutiny of his/hers decisions. In many cases, no one bothers to review these decisons. That is why I keep saying "ESSENTIALLY".

Hat - great to see you!  Yes, you are correct!

WELCOME BACK HAT!  Implicit in the prosecutor being the representitive of the people is that the public at large desires to hold perpetrators of crimes accountable, so that the public safety and well being is protected. I really believe that the average Aruban wants that, but I'm not convinced that all in authority place a high priority on it.

Thanks for the greetings.

Sadly victims are often beyond benefit of a court action.

Exactly. There's an Aruban mental block around the concept that AIDING a REAL investigation, and PURSUING the case WHEREVER it honestly leads, is the BEST protection of tourism dollers they can possibly have! What's so hard about that!?

it's aruba.  tourists get lied to every single day.  about everything. tourists go home and forget.  why go out of their way or inconvenience themselves by being honest.  plus, they have these really expensive public relations types that have them convinced that spending more money with them telling lies and evading the truth is the best way for them to get away with protecting the guilty and the reputation of the island.  it isn't sensible, and it isn't right, but it's aruba.  it's their damn island and they get to do what they want to on it.
dennisintn

YAHOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :lol:

http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2005/06/05/148650.html

(http://www.comcast.net/data/2005/06/04/bin24076.jpg)
Mashelle Zeolla, President of International Friends of Aruba hands out flyers of missing Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway, ...

Missing-Girl Case Focuses on Three Men
By MICHAEL NORTON, Associated Press Writer
Sat Jun 4, 6:41 PM

ORANJESTAD, Aruba - Three men who said they dropped off an Alabama teenager at her hotel have emerged as "the most important lead" in the honor student's disappearance on this Dutch Caribbean island, police said Saturday.

Police, Dutch troops and hundreds of volunteers scouring coastline and beaches for six days have found no trace of Natalee Holloway, 18.

Deputy police chief Gerold Dompig said authorities were investigating the background and story of two Surinamese men and a native of the Netherlands who said they dropped her off at the Holiday Inn before dawn Monday.

Dompig declined to call the men suspects, saying they were "persons of interest," but said the men were "the most important lead."

"We are working diligently," Dompig said. "I want everybody to hold their breaths for the next 24 hours. There will be developments after this weekend."

An official close to the investigation said the three men - legal Aruban residents between the ages of 18 and 25 - told police they had taken Holloway to a beach at the northwestern tip of Aruba before dropping her off at the hotel.

But her uncle, Paul Reynolds, said he was told security cameras did not show Holloway returning to the hotel that night. Police declined to comment on that report.

Holloway was on a five-day excursion with 124 seniors and several chaperones from Mountain Brook High School, near Birmingham, Ala. She spent the last night of her vacation eating and dancing at Carlos 'N Charlie's bar and restaurant.

She didn't show up for her return flight, and police found her passport in her hotel room with her packed bags.

"Natalee's bags were packed and she's ready to go home," her mother, Beth Holloway Twitty, told a news conference. "Please help bring her home."

Holloway, a straight-A student, had earned a full scholarship at the University of Alabama and planned to study premed, Reynolds said. He described his niece as a levelheaded girl who would not have done anything rash, although he also said she had an almost childlike side, too.

"Natalee's naive. She hasn't dated a lot. She doesn't party a lot," said Reynolds. Holloway attends church regularly and wouldn't ever run away, he said.

In the Mountain Brook yearbook, Holloway's senior quote came from the old Lynyrd Skynyrd song "Freebird." It says: "If I leave here tomorrow, would you still remember me? For I must be traveling on now, there's too many places I haven't seen."

In Mountain Brook, Ala., dozens of Holloway's friends and classmates attended an afternoon prayer vigil Saturday. "The entire community is very concerned and very much in prayer," said the city manager, Sam Gaston.

Ten more FBI agents joined the search Saturday for the girl, Attorney General Caren Janssen said. "We need more technical assistance," she said, declining to elaborate.


So KJ claims to need more technical assistance but when the FBI get their to search the water, ALE can't tell them what area to search?  Who stopped the FBI from being able to assist?

Nice to see ya, Hat.

Of course: "the People".

The slog continues.  I decided a while back to see it through.  

There are ways for this to be made right, I am quite sure.

BTW, your post from so long ago remains, in my mind, the signature of this case: "...a squad of American moms..."

That was a beauty.

.

Thanks, Hammer...You remember that one?
What ever happened to old Rubberlegs Ruben and Two button Arleen Schipper? I wonder. I don't care, I just wonder.
I think you still have some slogging ahead. But maybe...

Sorry, I didn't mean to stir things up and leave.  I was just trying to point out that we all may being a little too hard on the Dutch about their laws, because we give our prosecutors some discretion, as well.  While in most cases, it is in the public as well as the victem's to try a case, there are times when it is not.  The prosecutor has to answer to John Q. Public and that is what makes our system better.

Hat - as it turns out Arleen is related to Guido Wever who was detained in the Netherlands on Heavy Battery and Murder charges until his high powered attorney got him off.

Rubberlegs is in charge of the airport I believe.

Anything new on the bones?

Nope, nothing at all.

The quotes from Dompig and Janssen were printed on 6/4 by AP and the next morning MJ & AJ were arrested.   :2brickwall:

Yes 2NJ -  Makes by blood boil to know/realize that the coverup started so early.

Posted at BFN by Jonathan45 (note this is his opinion):

Jonathan45
Jr. Member

Posts: 67


    Re: Statements Against Interest--PJ2K&A,SGC,FAZ,plus
« Reply #20 on: Today at 14:06:44 »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This unsolved case has become a VDS familysecret,
First there is Joran, the factual and only suspect. He is the one who made up the beachstory and called Deepak at 2.26am after Natelee died.
Natalee died between 1.45am and 2.10am in Joran's appartment.
The 2.26am call to Deepak to frame his friends, who at approximately 1.40am dropped the couple off close to the VDSresidence, brought Natalee away from the VDShome as the crimescene.
The remains of Natalee are buried within walking distance frome the VDSresidence.
Joran was during the 2.26am call walking or he used his brothers bike.
His shoes had to dissappear just like Natalee.
The endless steering role of Paulus and Anita during Joran''s lying truthstory is based on the 'no body no case" and made it til now possible for Joran to escape from prosecution.
The Kalpoe brothers are only involved in Joran's lying truthstory.
Deepak stated: "If I had known my friend was a devil I never would have let this happen"
Freddy became on monday Joran's storyteller and he was the one who told Joran's parents [ first Anita, later Paulus] about his fiction sentence: "I left my shoes and the girl alone on the beach".

It's a family web of pathological double binds that made this all possible.

Joran's book is a confession
 

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.

As I recall Art wood had found a belt buried in the sand that looked very similar to one that JVDS owned but had said it was too old to be Jorans. We know he turned that over to ALE as well as some plastic and they were disregarded. He had instructed Fred Golba to search that area the next day with his search dogs..etc..

Early the next morning as he was arriving to the location on the same road as the Alto Vista Chapel he ran into Paul Van Der Sloot in his jeep who he made direct eye contact with.  It has always bothered me as I wondered what was PVDS doing up so early in the morning in that location. Was PVDS hiding evidence or checking to see what was hidden will never be found? Is it possible that the bone that washed up in the same place is part of Natalee?

Strange that I have written 2 comments on that page, and they wouldn't post either of them.  It's still all one sided over there.

Karma - I don't think we know the dates of the wire taps.

******* - your recollection is correct

*******, thank you for posting that.  I had missed that interesting tidbit.  So, Art Wood ran into PVDS in his jeep the very next day (and at the same location) after finding the belt and turning it over to the ALE.  PVDS was very, very involved in this case, wasn't he?  His involvement went much farther than advising the perps "no body, no case."  He was johnny-on-the-spot when evidence was found.

What's the latest word on the bone?  Anything?  Yes, I'd guess that finding human bones on your beach might be a negative thing, but then if they wanted to play up the old pirates and buried treasure image, the Arubans might think this a dramatic and appealing discover.  Go figure!

Compare the actions of the Aruban Prosecution with regard to the Security Guards and with the J2K suspects.  KJ herself was on hand for the rousting of the Security Guards at the crack of dawn.

This was after it was known the HI story was a lie because of not only the tape at the HI but the MB kids who were in the lobby and around the pool said so.

They arrested the SG's with great vigor anyway.  Then when it was determined this was not going to fly, there was no further interest in prosecution.

In this country, we are a nation of laws.  Even the actions of Prosecution or District Attorneys is governed, more or less, by the rule of law and not something like the effect on tourism.

What I find so shocking is that this can be based on the general good in Aruba, like the effect it would have on tourism having absolutely nothing to do with law or guilt or innocence but rather public interest.

It's not the same.  We are a nation governed by law.  We are a nation of laws and not of men.  In Aruba, it seems that the rule of men is far greater than the rule of law.  I have never heard a DA say they would not prosecute, not because there was no evidence of crime but because it would not be in the interest of the greater good of the public like tourism. 

DA's in Florida could use this all the time but they don't.  I have never heard one say he would not prosecute because of the effect it might have on tourism.

And that Jonathan's idea is certainly something to think about especially with regard to time limits.

.

Hi AZ!! Actually it was Fred Golba who ran into PVDS and he thought it was very odd!! PVDS is up to his eyeballs in this and I am very interested in that bone that washed up..Not only do I think he was involved in disposing of Natalee but he killed this case with his extensive knowledge of the dutch legal system. For all we know Natalee has been buried in a cave off shore or 3 miles out directly from that location.  Beth Twitty also use to pray at that chapel and I beleieve that is where in her mind she laid her daughter to rest.

PVDS was also still allowed access to the courthouse when the DNA form for Joran disappeared.  Note it did not disappear for the Kalpoes, just for taking it from Joran.

I have always found that to be very odd.

Ya don't suppose ole Paulus just lifted Joran's do ya?  Nah, he would never do anything that obvious, would he?

Well, somebody sure did.  And they only took the one for Joran, too.

This was posted today in the comment area at 24ora under the article regarding the bone that washed ashore:

http://www.24ora.com/content/view/1840/1/

Zap 7 said:

  LO E TA DI E VENEZOLANO CU A WORDO MATA TEMPO DI INBRAAK NA UN JOYERIA?..TA E TORSO SO NAN A HAJA....KEN SA ESEY TA SU PIANAN.  hopefully nan ta di carbrito.... 



It would be nice to get a translation of this.  Looks like the word TORSO.  I'd like to know what the entire comment says.


Through translator:

zap 7 said:

will the is of the venezolano cu owing to wordo kill time of inbraak at one joyeria?..ta the torso only they owing to haja....ken know esey is his pianan. hopefully they're of carbrito.... come across

This post reminded me that the Security Guards were arrested during the period ALE was doing heavy surveillance on J2K.  Dompig blamed Beth for having to bring J2K in early.  How hard could they have been looking at them, if they arrested the Security Guards?

Hi guys, can anybody tell me the best place to read to catch up? There are so many new places to post, I don't know where to read? Is this the best place to have an ongoing conversation with the monkeys?

If you want to read/catch up on the NH case right here.

JOYERIA?..  Translates in Spanish to Jewlery Store.

Hi Mishy!! This is specificly NH case discussion and general talk(Off topic) is in the musings thread. Good to see you :) Also we have two mom's(Gloria and Carolyn) that have missing kids that have joined SM..Please say hello if you get the chance.

Thanks Klaas!

WOW, for real? How long have the kids been missing....That's so terrible :sad:

Well Klaas, they are bashing us over there too.  Never ending.  Is Julia running that thread over there?

I like the comment that says None of your business, Joran.

Some still have a sense of humor about all this it seems. :cool:

It says none of your business Joan.  Joan asked where abouts the bone washed up.

Just to review.....

PVDS statement 6/18
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=237.0
PVDS statement 6/23
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=459.0

Also...something that really bugs me is the STUPID QUESTIONS the ALE Asked!! ACKKKKKK!!
“To you question what I can declare with regards to me being
arrested as a suspect of accessory to murder, manslaughter and
robbing someone of their freedom with death as the result, I can
state the following. I find this totally ridiculous and absurd.

   To your question what level of ridiculousness this reaches,
I can state the following. I am of the opinion that my arrest
reaches the highest possible levels of ridiculousness and absurdity.

The dipwads asked him what level of ridiculousness this reaches!!! THAT QUESTION IS WHAT IS RIDICULOUS!! ARGGGGGGG!!!!!!! Let me at em'.....just let me at em'!!(http://bestsmileys.com/angry1/5.gif)

I posted 2 as well and they did not include them. Well, one I can understand why they didn't, lmao...but the second one was 'ok'. Jerks.

I tried Spanish tranny=
IT AND TA DID I GIVE AND VENEZUELAN CU TO WORDO KILLS TEMPO I GAVE INBRAAK NA A JEWELERY SHOP?.. TA AND TORSO SO NAN A HAJA.... KEN SA ESEY TA HIS PIANAN. hopefully nan ta gave carbrito.

You are right, HotShot.

I should have known better!

Yep, now they are in full blown attack on SM!  And bringing up every crime ever committed in this country even John Wayne Gacey.

Difference is I believe Gacey was locked up and far from getting on with his miserable life undeterred.

Geeze, what was I thinking that they might finally see the light!  Some of those remarks are very familiar, too, have heard them before.
.

My post didn't appear either.  Not gonna hold my breath until it does.

Klaas,
Granny Toad might could give us a rough translation of the comment with the word torso in it.  Why don't you ask her when she is here?

.

I was just about to say  that sandy was lurking somewhere ...

sandy - can you make this out?



Nice to see you!

Hang on, got something else for you (a short one).

Hi, Sandy,

This is the comment with the word torso in it.  Do you know roughly what it says?  Thanks for all the help you have given us on the Murder and Crime thread, BTW!

.

sandy - Please? Thanks!

http://www.24ora.com/content/view/1840/1/ (http://www.24ora.com/content/view/1840/1/)

i couldnt find myself  :cool:

Hi, Robots!

What does your Robot self think about the bones?  With KLPD present, it will be harder for Dennis Jacobs to throw them away at least.
.

the bones are very important

sometimes, all ya need is a little break in the case.........

we may gave just gotten one

We all got a whole lot skinnier ...

And apparently sandy (that scamp) scamped off.

Cabrito means 'goat' in Spanish.

Robots,
I am glad the bones turned up while KLPD is around or even if not on the island right now, under their watch.  Perhaps these won't just vanish.

I hope you are right and it is the break we have been hoping and praying for all this time.

well, yes and lets not forget, the bones belong to someone

and it is sad no matter who is the person that has bones landing on beaches

hi monkeys wasnt scampering was translating but in the burp i got knocked off line 3 times so ill try this again brb

Surveillance

I am not convinced ALE did any surveillance or wire-taps on J2K pre-arrest.

Joran's *jackpot* comment assumes wiretap, but it also assumes Steve Croes was arrested based on that statement. Steve Croes was mentioned in PVs well before his arrest, a wiretap was not necessary. Joran could simply be remembering the conversation with Deepak and using it as a reason to blame, fingerpoint...which is what the police car tapes are all about.

There is also no indication that ALE had any idea that Deepak's car was brought to Automotive Enterprises during that first week, Osman Osman was not questioned until after the police car tapes.

Why assume diligence in this case? Help me out here...

Correct..Even though PVDS was seen in that area and it was suspicious it may be someone else other than NH. Max Devries,Buddy Larson,Gary Markings and others have vanished on that island. Because Aruba goes to the extremes to protect there tourism who knows what they will say about this. All I know is they didnt do much to help the families of these missing Americans.

Sandy

Thanks!

Thank you Sandy!

here goes: We understand that awe mainta has said a human bone has been found.The bone was found by beach maintanece personnel who thinks the bone may be oldand has a ruff appearance.  Then in looking more he claims the bone may not be human. it does not say who this person is just a park worker.

so this "goat" has jewelry on it's leg?!?!? :roll:

On second thought........ some Aruban may have a "goat" as a lover.

I KNOW.............AARGGGGGGGGGGGGG :2doh:

Thanks Sandy.  :2notworthy:

ughhhhhh just got knockedoff again.  I was jsut saying  yea can you believe a goat wearing jewelry.  Does anyone remember if Nat had jewelry on. In 2005 i remember someone posted she had a bracelet on.  In the picture wher she is wearin the green shirt, (that we were told was fishing nets) did anyone see jewelry?

I wish we had a "Dr. Baden" here to tell us what a bone might look like after 2 years in salt water.

:batman:

Thanks again Sandy!

Sandy, I thought Natalee had on a necklace that she & her friends had bought that were alike

Several of the girls had starfish necklace.  Not sure if that would qualify and should not be on leg.  That sounds like ankle bracelet. 

Sounds like this is being set up to be a goat this time instead of the usual donkey.

She may have been wearing a bracelet and earrings.  What we don't know is if she may have been wearing an ankle bracelet.

Was the pic with her and friends on the beach a "full body" shot? This is the only pic I remember that might show her ankles.

I remember this.  I thought it was silver.

i do believe we're being "spoofed" by the extraordinarily nice kids on the happy island. wouldn't be able to prove it, but it sure looks like it to me.
dennisintn

I thought the girlfriends all bought a wishbone necklace like

yes thats the picture i mean.  she was wearing brown sandles but i couldnt tell if jewelry was on her at all.

When I zoom in on this photo I see her dangle earrings and maybe a bracelet next to her all inclusive blue bracelet.  I do not see a necklace or an anklet.


(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/nat.jpg)

Thank you Sandy.

It was just a park worker who found the duct tape and Natalee's top.  These so called park workers are doing better than the ALE.  Heck they can even tell that the bone is old.  How the hell would he know if this bone is old or not.  Once again we are being lied to.  JMO.

Upon further thinking -- I just can't see any "bracelet" staying on a single bone. I think this "rumor" is unfounded.

Klaas, look closer at the plastic blue bracelt, just below it.  Is that a thin bracelt?   Like maybe one of those thin braided ones young people wore.  A friendship bracelet, I think it was called.   And I remember from discussions we had from before, Natalee was wearing brown "Rainbow" brand sandals, iirc.

Yes, that's what I said.  It looks like she's wearing one of those thin braided bracelets. No necklace or anklet though that I can see.

Gerold Dompig
48 Hours Mystery
March 22, 2006

Dompig says surveillance of the three boys began on the third day after Natalee was reported missing and included observation, telephone wire taps, and even monitoring of their e-mail.

you may be right it can just be roumer from a park worker or awe mainta staff,posters.  iwould also think a bone in the water would look yellow or brownish and discolored, but i think back on the arm that washed up in venezuela,that was slender and no i dont believe it was the plane wrecks that happened over land. just too too coincidental.

This is what I recall reading, yapperz1

Good point, wreck...wanted to put 'idea' (lightbulb smiley) but couldn't find it.

:idea:

around June 2nd? 

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2005/06/27/
At the fund-raiser Saturday afternoon, a group of six Mountain Brook teenage girls put on matching silver wishbone necklaces, a sign of their lasting friendship. “Natalee still has hers,” Mallie Tucker said at the concert raising money for the search for Holloway. “Natalee is my best friend and I’d do anything to bring her home.” “We just get together and pray,” said Frances Ellen Byrd, also wearing her wishbone necklace. “We can’t wait for her to get home.”

I wonder if they really did any of this or just pretended to do so.  Of course, they could just rent cell phones and use the internet cafe, etc. 

Whatever the plan was, it didn't work out very well.  Or maybe it worked perfectly as planned all along.

WISHBONE NECKLACES

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050627/benefit.shtml

The Decatur Daily News
June 27, 2005

At the fund-raiser, a group of six Mountain Brook teenage girls put on matching silver wishbone necklaces, a sign of their lasting friendship.

"Natalee still has hers," Mallie Tucker said at the concert raising money for the search for Holloway. "Natalee is my best friend and I'd do anything to bring her home."

"We just get together and pray," said Frances Ellen Byrd, also wearing her wishbone necklace. "We can't wait for her to get home."

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/NataleeRuth.jpg)

She's wearing a bracelet.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/NatDance.jpg)

No jewelry is evident in this shot. Her right wrist isn't visable which is the one donning the bracelet in the pic with Ruth. (I think that's Ruth, right?)