Lively Case Discussion #675 8/8 - 8/10/2007

[KarmaRoundUp]

Where do you think this investigation failed?  Did it have to do with the lead investigator’s incompetence?  The prosecutor’s?  Or, the judge’s? 

most of the judges are good and professional people, only a few judges are permanently in the area, most are dutch judges who are there for a period of no more than 3 years. And it doesn't help to have 1 or 2 corrupt judges, you needs scores of them to effect judicial decisions. If the first judge is corrupt (and I don't think they are) then a DA appeals it to a three judges panel who will overrule the first judge without hesitation.

And as you never know what judge is going to be selected for a case or an appeal it is almost impossible to bribe the correct judge. Now in countries where all cases committed in a region come before 1 specific judge then it is easy to affect judicial decision (mostly the case in third world countries I think, in most industrialized nations there is a sufficient system of checks and balances).

Then there is the DA. She did excellent work here in the Netherlands and should have done a proper job. But I am not sure whether she had sufficient control of the investigation. I got the impression that the investigation steered her and it should have been the other way around. With her it could be a case of incompetence rather than anything worse.

And last (and least) there is the ALE. This is where it all went wrong. I am not sure whether or not it started out as plain old nepotism (not arresting the judges son, he couldn't possibly have done it) or worse. Fact remains that they screwed up the investigation.

I read early in this case where it was the prosecutor who leads the case,the prosecutor who directs the police where,when to search etc.But it did look like ALE was leading or worse,no one was leading and I place that blame on the prosecutor Karin Janssen.What do you mean she did excellent work in the NL?Wasn't she a PR person before coming to aruba?How long was she prosecutor on aruba before Natalee disappeared?

[GrannyToad]

Good morning Monkeys
Ramm,do you know why Paulus did not make it through the full judge training or what would be good reasons why a trainee judge fails?

that kind of information is never made public, but most likely he was booted because he did not make the cut. He was not proper judicial material. The reason for that are mostly professional but there could be a personal element to that as well.

His study results could have been poor. His practical exams could have been crap. His mentors in the Netherlands might have been doubtful whether or not he had the personality of being a judge (IMHO Paul seems to have a bit of a spine-problem, or should I say the lack of a spine).

Fact is that far before his 3 year tenure was up he was booted for not making the grade.

Thanks Ramm
Good evening Monkeys
Do you know when his 3 year tenure was up,the date?

End of December 2005. Except that he got a nearly 6 months' taxpayer-paid vacation when he was shut out of the office early.

[Rammstein]

I've often wondered if they have some other kind of connections, related to class, nobility.  Are they common?  Or, perhaps a few relatives removed from a title?

I just find it hard to believe that someone could hold up construction of a road for 20 years, and be a 'nobody'.

An example, the A73 was thought of in the 60's of the last century. The first part took only a few years but the second part of the freeway took from 1986 and will be finalized in 2007 (at the end of the year)

It took more than 30 years before the last stretch of road was constructed after the first part of the road was finalized (in 1986). And I am talking about a piece of road that in total (including the first part that was laid in a few years) is 114 kilometers long (about 70 miles).

In the Netherlands property rights are very serious business (small country, not a lot of space, people around every corner). After a road is planned there will be information nights all over the route the road will take. They will talk and inform and also people can add their own ideas and objections to the planners ideas. After that has taken place the finalized plans for the road will be drawn up.

Then starts the negotiations with the people who need to move or be compensated. Now part will agree and take the money and move on, a lot however will fight that tooth and nail. Now as for people of limited finances it is not difficult to get legal aid for a small price, a lot of people take the State to court. They will try every trick in the book.

And if all seems lost they will appeal all kinds of sections of the road through "de raad van state" which is a college of wise men and legal professionals who judge on extremely difficult matters between citizens and the government. A procedure there can take years to finalize, and if they loose they can take it to the European courts, taking more years.

If a major road here gets finalized in 20 years from first planning to finalized result then it was a fast one.

[KarmaRoundUp]

((edit))

Frank - try to keep it civil please

Auntiem,IMO it is not pitting one person as good(because they support justice for Natalee)and another person as bad(because they bashed Natalee's family).
I believe it is about tolerence.That's doesn't mean we have to choose sides,I know which side I'm on and will always be on until there is justice for Natalee.
IMO this forum is for discussions,debates.Believe me,I too always wanted to bash anyone who bashed Natalee and her family,Still do when I'm feeling brave and post on aol message boards but.....I don't ever want to get scared monkeys confused with aol message boards or skanks-R-us.
I think we are all adults here and we should start acting like it.
No matter what anyone says,I will never be a Joran supporter.




When I see something like this it breaks my heart. To see Frank treated like this, when we all, very well know from whence he is coming, how sincere he is, what an altruistic, good man he is, to be treated like this, while the Red Carpet is rolled out for the KNOWN trolls, the very well-known Beth bashers, the blamers of Natalee for her drugging, kidnapping, bludgeoning, rape and murder....not only does my heart break, every ounce of hope left in me for Natalee's case is dashed......the Forums are going into the sewer.......as so well planned and now being executed by the very same monsters who are running Aruba!  They can take an innocent, unaware tourist and treat her in the most horrible of ways until death comes to her as a blessing, they can refuse Justice to her parents, by refusing to reliquish the battered remains of their lovely, deceased child, so viciously taken from them, they can deny the culpability of the known predators and fail to prosecute  them.....they can.... and they have done what ever evil they damn well choose to do...

                Have they now infiltratrated Natalee's most devoted supporters?
Are we going to treat the "devils" we know, yes we know them....they were OUTED months ago........ with manners and decorum that they don't DESERVE.........and admonish those who see through their scam and refuse to tolerate them, NOW or AT ANYTIME????

             When a Forum takes up for Ramm against Frank, I say WTF, did I make a wrong turm, IS THIS SCARED MONKEYS??????

[Rammstein]

I read early in this case where it was the prosecutor who leads the case,the prosecutor who directs the police where,when to search etc.But it did look like ALE was leading or worse,no one was leading and I place that blame on the prosecutor Karin Janssen.What do you mean she did excellent work in the NL?Wasn't she a PR person before coming to aruba?How long was she prosecutor on aruba before Natalee disappeared?

No, she was a prosecutor in the district of Roermond and she was the lead prosecutor in one of the biggest fraud cases of the Netherlands and got convictions on the major parties (very long investigation).

[KarmaRoundUp]

Hi Frank!

Didn't Tapioca tell us that it was THE NATALEE HOLLOWAY CASE that was at fault for Paulus losing his judgeship???

And now we find out that Paulus was told he couldn't cut it a few years BEFORE NATALEE ever set foot on that craggy rock?

Yet Tapioca blames Natalee ? Where did he get that from?

Something smelly there, too.

What I read was that Paulus was off aruba for a year(in the NL)and came back in march(?)of 2005 before Natalee disappeared.

[KarmaRoundUp]

2. Paul worked as a lawyer in the Netherlands. Was tired of it and moved to Aruba and did other judicial functions before failing miserably at becoming a judge. Then he went back to his former profession of lawyer.

In 1991 Paul van der Sloot thought it was the time for a new job and he found one in Aruba where he was appointed for five year as a lawyer for the Aruban government.

I guess that's the same thing.

I guess when you translate, nobody here translates the translation.

How about:

In 1991 Dracula needed more blood. He needed to find a place where his Dutchness granted the built in authority he couldn't achieve on his own merits. So he went to Aruba and savaged a girl young enough to be his daughter and finally found a place he belonged.

Frank,IMO Natalee wasn't the first young girl targeted by Paulus for Joran to lead home to him.

[SunnyinTX]

O/T - didn't we have a sticky with the email addys of all the news media??  Or do I need to get off the Coconut Creme???  If we do..please direct me to it....if we don't (I'll have another glass) and anyone has them please post them...I am fuming over Obama's 'spiritual advisor Wright's (see front page) remark about Natalee.....so it's time to blast the media once again about this rascist A$$Bite!!

Yes we did have a thread Sunny.  I can't find it.  I think I remember someone posting a list of them again but I forgot who it was.

Sunny - here is the thread:

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=468.0

Whew I was still looking and decided to take a peak to see if someone found it.  I should have know better Klaas.

thanks San and Klaas!  I apprciate it!!

[GrannyToad]

When did Joran 'shut up'?

What was happening in Aruba at that time?

Very interesting question.Did Joran finally shut up when they detained Paulus?I don't think so but I know he was shutting up royally when the special Dutch interrogators came.

I think they came when Joran turned 18.

Although he hasn't been smart enough to shut up yet as recently as his book publication.

[Auntiem]

      ONCE AGAIN RANNSTEIN MONOPOLIZES THE FORUM!!!!!!

[JusticeforNatalee]

Update: Massive Letter-Writing Campaign to State Department:

Give Dutch a chance--hold off for now--maybe later

[San]

When did Joran 'shut up'?

What was happening in Aruba at that time?

Very interesting question.Did Joran finally shut up when they detained Paulus?I don't think so but I know he was shutting up royally when the special Dutch interrogators came.

I think they came when Joran turned 18.

Although he hasn't been smart enough to shut up yet as recently as his book publication.

I agree.  Joran will never shut up.

[Altruist]

Give Dutch a chance--hold off for now--maybe later

Who is saying the above, please?

[KarmaRoundUp]

Hi Frank!

Didn't Tapioca tell us that it was THE NATALEE HOLLOWAY CASE that was at fault for Paulus losing his judgeship???

And now we find out that Paulus was told he couldn't cut it a few years BEFORE NATALEE ever set foot on that craggy rock?

Yet Tapioca blames Natalee ? Where did he get that from?

Something smelly there, too.

he is a lawyer for the prime suspect, I would not believe a word he says without having independent verified and investigated proof in threefold to back it up.

That prime suspect happens to be the son of the father who Tacopina has stated lost his job over what happened to Natalee.  Joe has stated many times that he has viewed the files and knows things others don't.

Until this day I have not seen evidence of any document of when Paulus actually lost his judgeship.  Was he really in training at all or was this another lie to trick everyone.  At first we heard he returned from the Netherlands the very day he was at the casino and then months later we find out he was never in the Netherlands.

Like Sharon said I am very suspicious of all this about him being a judge or not.  Something is wrong here.

Would it be better for Aruba to say that Paulus wasn't a judge and he was only in training to become one because it looks better that finding out an actual Judge wasn't involved in the murder of an American tourist.  Would he help with the decisions made by other Judges in Joran's case by saying Paulus was not a Judge.

I just don't know I need to see the evidence of when he was told he failed his judgeship.

I don't want to hear that he was informed by Rudy Croes because Rudy Croes' word doesn't mean squat to me.

I would like to know how Joey tacopenishead has the right to those evidence files when he is not licensed to practice law on aruba and he is supposed to be Joran's civil atty....to protect Joran's name(in the media) here in the US.Can any atty from the US go to aruba and check out case/evidence files?
Weren't we told over and over again by screeeeching Arlene and others working with the aruban tourism that if ANY evidences get out to the public,it could ruin the case and the judge could throw the case out????

[2NJSons_Mom]

When did Joran 'shut up'?

What was happening in Aruba at that time?

Very interesting question.Did Joran finally shut up when they detained Paulus?I don't think so but I know he was shutting up royally when the special Dutch interrogators came.

I think they came when Joran turned 18.

Although he hasn't been smart enough to shut up yet as recently as his book publication.

What about the Dutch behavioral evalutators...(are they one and the same...and yes, I may have their job description skewed...)

[2NJSons_Mom]

      ONCE AGAIN RANNSTEIN MONOPOLIZES THE FORUM!!!!!!

You can comment more....imo...maybe that will change the odds.

[Destiny]

2. Paul worked as a lawyer in the Netherlands. Was tired of it and moved to Aruba and did other judicial functions before failing miserably at becoming a judge. Then he went back to his former profession of lawyer.

In 1991 Paul van der Sloot thought it was the time for a new job and he found one in Aruba where he was appointed for five year as a lawyer for the Aruban government.

I guess that's the same thing.

I guess when you translate, nobody here translates the translation.

How about:

In 1991 Dracula needed more blood. He needed to find a place where his Dutchness granted the built in authority he couldn't achieve on his own merits. So he went to Aruba and savaged a girl young enough to be his daughter and finally found a place he belonged.

Frank,IMO Natalee wasn't the first young girl targeted by Paulus for Joran to lead home to him.

I agree with you here Karmaroundup!

Dest

[TNMOM]

      ONCE AGAIN RANNSTEIN MONOPOLIZES THE FORUM!!!!!!

You can comment more....imo...maybe that will change the odds.

I am really lost....I try and read here a few days a week to catch up.  But I am lost can someone please explain all this to those of us who read occassionally, (guess I skipped the important stuff) but don't post much. 

[igsigs]

Service Unavailable - DNS Failure
>  RU  

[klaasend]

TNMOM - it appears that there are some people not happy with Ramm posting at SM.  Ramm has been a member of SM for a while and is just now started posting.  As far as I've seen Ramm has not said anything bad about Natalee or her family since he's started posting here.