Natalee Case Discussion #814 4/5/09 - 4/8/09

[Lifesong]

Hey Hotshot!!!

How is investigating me helping Natalee?

I know exactly what you're doing. I'm a good bit smarter than you - you idiot! I got like five alerts this morning that Kath8700 is following me on twitter and Zaba was kind enough to let me know you are trying to dig up dirt on me.

By the way- and for your info - maybe you DON'T know my real name    Just sayin - so waste for your time you fool!!!

Be careful Kath - you're messing with the wrong people. I will call the FBI and YOUR local authorities.

 

I'm a great believer in the "Give 'em enough rope.." theory, sotaspeak.


Btw, "crazy" symptomatically presents with a lack of recognition of social mores and boundaries, leading to problems with the law.

This deficiency alone speaks very loudly to all that has happened in this instance, imo.  And I am certainly NOT only referring to any one individual.  I can think of at least a few.

Natalee was never a "Jane Doe".  She has always had a family.  A pretty remarkable family at that. 

[nonesuche]

KTF-

Thanks.

Theories vary a bit from time to time.

This case has been such a riddle, from Day1.

It is probably:
(a) a simple crime.
(b) a verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry complicated cover-up.

Lifesong I agree with this, I have even thought that the original crime likely was a bungled mishap but the cover-up has been a classic Jimmy Hoffa-style event all the way up the food chain in Aruba and the Hague.

Anna, I remember Paulus refusing the dog search as well but then he knew the system and the playas, he knew he had license and he used it liberally. I do hope your ribs are better this morning, bless you for helping that neighbor.

[Anna]

108 cm = 3.54 feet or 42.5 inch 

You're getting there.  Being on the door, I do think it was at least two squares as it is rectangular and not square but even given your own figures, that's about the right height from the skirt hem up for Natalee.

Is exactly a yardstick or 36 inches on me just as Kyle calculated.

Did you see the tiny suitcase yesterday that contained the remains of Sandra Cantu an entire eight year old child?    And when a victim named Lori Hastings was found in a landfill in Utah, all that remained was fifteen pounds of a fully grown woman.  Death does reduce is all.

[Lifesong]

Good Morning, All!


I have a question and am trying to phrase it carefully...

Would "Shiribana 6" be the setting for the pond witness' story?

I'm gonna answer my own question here with a "No," based on the map above. 

Shiribana 6 = Road 6?

[Tamikosmom]

The implication of the following post submitted to Boycott Aruba is that Kyle Kingman was fabricating in his post to the SM site ... the post that implied that he discovered the trap on sonar on Christmas day.

 

Janet

++++++

BOYCOTT ARUBA--JUSTICE FOR NATALEE

December 18, 2007

Comments:

DEA can fire on ALE said...
ALE are tapping on the cellphone towers to listen on Persistence's wireless. They bugged the timeshare like Mos did without a court order. Periscopes are mounted on top of the high rises to watch the crew and operations. The Dutch spy satellite is tracking every inch of Persistence's movement. They are very unhappy about the clear sonar images. One image is of a drug submarine sunked by the coast guard. The other one image is the anchor and chain used to weight down a crab cage of a missing American's body. The crab cage is somewhere separated and sitting nearby. Persistence did not provide that image. It may be Natalee is inside the cage. This morning is super emotional and silent. John, Tim and Kyle are studying the closer snapshot of the crab cage. Something look like tennis shoes and a big knife inside. Some bones with some blue fabric around them. Most likely they belong to Natalee. The ALE are waiting for the warrant signed by judge Bob Witt to board Persistence and take over. However, the Persistence has the protection of the DEA helicopters. They can fire the hellfire missiles on the ALE boats. Aruba wants to make Persistence an international crisis to coverup it's cold case.

December 21, 2007 11:33:00 AM EST

http://arubanboycott.blogspot.com/2007/12/just-in-natalees-case-closed.html

Credit: Jen


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #777 11/21/08 thru
« Reply #707 on: November 23, 2008, 03:31:18 PM »

I found the trap sonar target at 1:42 am on Christmas morning.  I was asked if I had any targets to investigate with the ROV on Dev 29th.  I did.  We then performed the 1st ROV dive and confirmed the sonar target was the trap.  This was the first ROV dive performed.  No other dives were performed prior to this.  I kept the sonar target list very confidential.  I didn't need people knowing about it and people on board knew well enough not even to ask.  When it was time to dive I have the target location. Until then, it was kept confidential.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4159.msg554268;topicseen#msg554268

REMINDER

If the contents of the cage were not case related ... why the deception in regards to the time of discovery.  Consider the above poster had all the detaila pertaining to the contents on December 21, 2007 ... it appears the trap was discovered almost immediately.

Janet

++++++


The Search for Natalee Holloway

VII. Beginning the Search
 
UPDATE: 18-Dec - 1510 hrs: The Persistence has begun the search. Bathymetric survey nearing completion.

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/12/vii-beginning-search.html

[Tamikosmom]

Extra sad day.

But keep up the Good Works, Monkey Family.

IBE ... how ya doing?

Janet

[jen3560]

REMINDER

If the contents of the cage were not case related ... why the deception in regards to the time of discovery.  Consider the above poster had all the detaila pertaining to the contents on December 21, 2007 ... it appears the trap was discovered almost immediately.

Janet

++++++


The Search for Natalee Holloway

VII. Beginning the Search
 
UPDATE: 18-Dec - 1510 hrs: The Persistence has begun the search. Bathymetric survey nearing completion.

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/12/vii-beginning-search.html

YES!!  According to Legally Lex, they began their bathymetric scannining on Dec 15.  It only took them 3 days to do.

The earliest someone else was on the boat (aside from the crew) would have been Tim Miller on the 18th (and that's giving the benefit of the doubt - as I can only find for certainty that he boarded on the 19th).

So.................we know it was found during this bathymetric scan, because Kyle said it was his first priority target once the ROV dives began.

Meaning - they had found it prior to Dec 18th.

[Tamikosmom]

I'm asking a legitimate question, that noone has been able to answer yet.  Doesn't it bug you that the stuff in the cage looks so small?   I would love for it to have been Natalee in the cage.  And I think it does look suspicious.  But if that cage is 2.5 feet tall, I just can't understand how it could be a shoe or a skull.  Not trying to rain on your parade.  Why don't you guys just ask Tim Miller about this and get to the bottom of the cage contents for once and all? This has been dragging on for months.

Iris ... it does not concern me at all.  Considering Kyle Kingman's field of expertise ... 

Janet

+++++


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #92 on: March 03, 2008, 06:35:58 PM »

The trap was symmetrical in width and length at approximately 7.5 ft. It was approximately 2.25-2.5 ft high.  You're correct about the ROV video lens distorting perspective due to the paralax view lens. 

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360072#msg360072


THE ANALYSIS

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:  The trap was symmetrical in width and length at approximately 7.5 ft. It was approximately 2.25-2.5 ft high.  You're correct about the ROV video lens distorting perspective due to the paralax view lens. 

Kyle Kingman: I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.
 
Kyle Kingman:  This is how the Dateline episode happened:
Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman: The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

Kyle Kingman: Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand. I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs. I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location. Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle Kingman: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand. There was also something possibly recovered from far inside the trap. In the video the diver is inside the trap with just below his knees showing. I don't know what was sampled far inside the trap if anything.

Kyle Kingman: The most likely to remain at or near it's original location was the skull, which is why I was so convinced the object pictured was a skull.

Kyle Kingman: I'm sorry if this is disturbing. I took the picture of Natalee standing on the beach and cropped, rotated, and scaled the image to correlate with the trap body form. Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman:  The sediment in this case is fine-grained sand which is preferencially deposited to make a body form. For sand to preferentially deposit, there needs to be a lower energy state where the sand collects and stays. This can be achieved either with a shallow depression creating accomodation space and lower potential energy (not the case) or by creating small eddy currents due to surface friction. The sediment around the door area is being eroded or removed by currents. Where the body was, it is being deposited. Basically, the fabrics created enough resistence for sediment to preferentially collect on it. Further, bacterial staining due to decaying organics acts as a mild cementing agent. Combined, you will have sediment erosion around the body form and deposition on the body form which collects through time. In this case, possibly 2 1/2 years.


QUALIFICATIONS

Kyle Kingman
Geophysicist and Marine Geologist
Greater New York City Area

Current Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Past Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Education Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey-New Brunswick


Kyle Kingman’s Summary
Kyle Kingman’s Specialties:

Project Management, Sonar Acquisition, hydrographic survey, data processing, remote sensing data analysis

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/b/65/464


The Search for Natalee Holloway
Monday, November 26, 2007

I. Mobilization

Key Personnel:

<snipped>

Kyle Kingman - Field Project Manager, Geophysical Engineer and Marine Geologist - Responsible for side scan sonar acquisition, digital processing, analysis, and target identification. Kyle will assist in side scan sonar operation and guide the ROV (remotely operated vehicle) team to each sonar target.

Posted by Kyle Kingman

http://jlbworld.com/files/chapter23/sitedevotedtoseasearch.htm
http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/11/mobilization.html

[Anna]

Hey Hotshot!!!

How is investigating me helping Natalee?

I know exactly what you're doing. I'm a good bit smarter than you - you idiot! I got like five alerts this morning that Kath8700 is following me on twitter and Zaba was kind enough to let me know you are trying to dig up dirt on me.

By the way- and for your info - maybe you DON'T know my real name    Just sayin - so waste for your time you fool!!!

Be careful Kath - you're messing with the wrong people. I will call the FBI and YOUR local authorities.

 

I'm a great believer in the "Give 'em enough rope.." theory, sotaspeak.


Btw, "crazy" symptomatically presents with a lack of recognition of social mores and boundaries, leading to problems with the law.

This deficiency alone speaks very loudly to all that has happened in this instance, imo.  And I am certainly NOT only referring to any one individual.  I can think of at least a few.

Natalee was never a "Jane Doe".  She has always had a family.  A pretty remarkable family at that. 

Lifesong,

You are so right.  Not only does Natalee have a family but a most remarkable one at that.

And that family does not need every fruit and nut and flake inserting themselves into this investigation.  Most especially those of highly questionable motives and connections.  Attention seekers should find a different outlet than preying on the victims' families like this.

Very inappropriate but as you said, they seem unable to understand boundaries of others and so think nothing of planting their big fat selves right into the middle.

Doing far more harm than good. . . .

[Lifesong]

12/15/2007
Persistence arrived at Aruba – “1615 hrs: ARRIVED at Aruba pilot station. Port Authorities board and the Persistence is cleared for docking.”

12/18/2007
“UPDATE: 1510 hrs: The Persistence has begun the search.”

12/19/2007
Louis Schaefer, Tim Miller & Dr. Hodges board the Persistence and remain aboard for the next 24 hours.

John Silvetti expresses frustration about the lack of an exact description of the missing crab cage:  “We had several interesting discussions both on deck and in the relatively small galley. At one point, the boat-owner, Capt. John Silvetti (of the J.D. Silvetti Group), expressed his frustration about the lack of an exact description of the missing "crab cage" in which Natalee was likely enclosed. He'd been requesting one for several weeks, and Louis had expressed the identical frustration to me earlier”

12/20/2007
“Thurs. 20-Dec -0430 hrs:  The Persistence has completed the first day of the side scan sonar search.”

Louis Schaefer and Dr. Hodges disembark the Persistence:  “The next day, Louis and I disembarked while Tim went back out on the boat.”

Schaefer leaves Aruba:  “So I took him to the airport the next afternoon, and he planned on returning after Christmas as did I.”

Dr. Hodges journal:   “At this point I called Tim Miller now at sea on The Persistence to pass along the new information about the cage. He put me on the phone with John Silvetti who was pleased with my findings. From the boat they emailed a new copy of the model cage to the person constructing an actual model of the cage, and picked it up the following morning upon returning to shore.”

CapsLockWizard registers at SM, 09:38:24 PM

12/21/2007
Dr. Hodges journal:           
  “By December 21, the search team had an accurate model cage and was able to drop it into the water and obtain a sonar signature of the cage."
 
Photo Credit:  Blonde



But why all the stuff about the "test cage" if they'd already found the real cage?

[Anna]

klaasend
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #811 3/24/09 -
« Reply #301 on: March 25, 2009, 06:26:59 PM »

If you go back and check it was announced that KBM was Kawish by Red no less.  I believe it was Hotshot that talked Red and I into allowing KBM to register and post.  It was a waste of time and I never thought it would be any less than that.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4743.msg738409#msg738409

Well now isn't THAT interesting?

And when she was banned for her antics with Ringo, some of us begged that she be let back in here at SM.  Then the thanks we get is to later be stalked and even have this loon stalking our children.

As for Kawish, that was sort of entertaining.  He was so obviously of the "Anybody But Joran" crowd.  Really makes you wonder why she wanted him posting here but then this seems to be a way to meet young guys or any guys at all for some of the desperate.  Always with the inappropriate behavior, these types.

[Tamikosmom]

REMINDER

If the contents of the cage were not case related ... why the deception in regards to the time of discovery.  Consider the above poster had all the detaila pertaining to the contents on December 21, 2007 ... it appears the trap was discovered almost immediately.

Janet

++++++


The Search for Natalee Holloway

VII. Beginning the Search
 
UPDATE: 18-Dec - 1510 hrs: The Persistence has begun the search. Bathymetric survey nearing completion.

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/12/vii-beginning-search.html

YES!!  According to Legally Lex, they began their bathymetric scannining on Dec 15.  It only took them 3 days to do.

The earliest someone else was on the boat (aside from the crew) would have been Tim Miller on the 18th (and that's giving the benefit of the doubt - as I can only find for certainty that he boarded on the 19th).

So.................we know it was found during this bathymetric scan, because Kyle said it was his first priority target once the ROV dives began.

Meaning - they had found it prior to Dec 18th.

... and considering the contents were identified by a poster commenting at the Boycott Aruba site on December 21, 2007 ... there must have been an ROV dive at the very least.

Janet

+++++++


The Search for Natalee Holloway

VI. The Arrival

Saturday, Dec-15 - 1615 hrs: ARRIVED at Aruba pilot station. Port Authorities board and the Persistence is cleared for docking.

Sunday, Dec-16 - 1100 hrs: Taking on fresh water. Crew change.

Posted by Kyle Kingman

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/12/vi-arrival.html


The Search for Natalee Holloway

VII. Beginning the Search

UPDATE: 18-Dec - 1510 hrs: The Persistence has begun the search. Bathymetric survey nearing completion.

Before the side scan sonar can be safely towed, the seafloor must be accurately characterised in terms of its topography. The R/V Persistence comes all-stop once it reached the survey area. A sound velocity profile (SVP) is performed to measure the speed of sound throughout the water column. Normally, performing a SVP in deep water is nothing exciting to write home about. However, without announcement and in unison the crew gathers on the back deck of the Persistence and takes a silent vigil as the sensor disappears into the depths. This SVP feels somehow different than the rest. We continue to watch as the instrument approaches bottom. Once it reaches bottom, it is slowly retrieved. Again, the crew awaits silently watching and waiting for the return of the instrument. Suddenly, out of the deep it takes shape and it breaks the surface. Although unspoken, I believe the crew felt this SVP to be somewhat symbolic of what lies ahead.

Line by line, the Persistence collects bathymetry data from within the search area as if conducting an interrogation. After a while, a picture slowly emerges. With a geologic history dating back to the Late Cretaceous, the seabed resembles an old living creature, full of character and tales. We know this creature will fight to hold onto its secrets. However, the very nature of the seabed merely fortifies our resolution and renews our vigor knowing that every crevice will soon be exposed in the light of a side scan sonar.

Posted by Kyle Kingman

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/12/vii-beginning-search.html

[Anna]

I'm asking a legitimate question, that noone has been able to answer yet.  Doesn't it bug you that the stuff in the cage looks so small?   I would love for it to have been Natalee in the cage.  And I think it does look suspicious.  But if that cage is 2.5 feet tall, I just can't understand how it could be a shoe or a skull.  Not trying to rain on your parade.  Why don't you guys just ask Tim Miller about this and get to the bottom of the cage contents for once and all? This has been dragging on for months.

Iris ... it does not concern me at all.  Considering Kyle Kingman's field of expertise ... 

Janet

+++++


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #92 on: March 03, 2008, 06:35:58 PM »

The trap was symmetrical in width and length at approximately 7.5 ft. It was approximately 2.25-2.5 ft high.  You're correct about the ROV video lens distorting perspective due to the paralax view lens. 

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360072#msg360072


THE ANALYSIS

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:  The trap was symmetrical in width and length at approximately 7.5 ft. It was approximately 2.25-2.5 ft high.  You're correct about the ROV video lens distorting perspective due to the paralax view lens. 

Kyle Kingman: I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.
 
Kyle Kingman:  This is how the Dateline episode happened:
Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman: The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

Kyle Kingman: Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand. I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs. I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location. Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle Kingman: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand. There was also something possibly recovered from far inside the trap. In the video the diver is inside the trap with just below his knees showing. I don't know what was sampled far inside the trap if anything.

Kyle Kingman: The most likely to remain at or near it's original location was the skull, which is why I was so convinced the object pictured was a skull.

Kyle Kingman: I'm sorry if this is disturbing. I took the picture of Natalee standing on the beach and cropped, rotated, and scaled the image to correlate with the trap body form. Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman:  The sediment in this case is fine-grained sand which is preferencially deposited to make a body form. For sand to preferentially deposit, there needs to be a lower energy state where the sand collects and stays. This can be achieved either with a shallow depression creating accomodation space and lower potential energy (not the case) or by creating small eddy currents due to surface friction. The sediment around the door area is being eroded or removed by currents. Where the body was, it is being deposited. Basically, the fabrics created enough resistence for sediment to preferentially collect on it. Further, bacterial staining due to decaying organics acts as a mild cementing agent. Combined, you will have sediment erosion around the body form and deposition on the body form which collects through time. In this case, possibly 2 1/2 years.


QUALIFICATIONS

Kyle Kingman
Geophysicist and Marine Geologist
Greater New York City Area

Current Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Past Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Education Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey-New Brunswick


Kyle Kingman’s Summary
Kyle Kingman’s Specialties:

Project Management, Sonar Acquisition, hydrographic survey, data processing, remote sensing data analysis

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/b/65/464


The Search for Natalee Holloway
Monday, November 26, 2007

I. Mobilization

Key Personnel:

<snipped>

Kyle Kingman - Field Project Manager, Geophysical Engineer and Marine Geologist - Responsible for side scan sonar acquisition, digital processing, analysis, and target identification. Kyle will assist in side scan sonar operation and guide the ROV (remotely operated vehicle) team to each sonar target.

Posted by Kyle Kingman

http://jlbworld.com/files/chapter23/sitedevotedtoseasearch.htm
http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/11/mobilization.html

BUMP



Doesn't concern me, either, Janet.  Just tired of hearing about the small size when it isn't.  36" inch height and shot at an angle makes all the stuff about the right scale.  Unfortunately since it was all handed over to ALE only.

[jen3560]

REMINDER

If the contents of the cage were not case related ... why the deception in regards to the time of discovery.  Consider the above poster had all the detaila pertaining to the contents on December 21, 2007 ... it appears the trap was discovered almost immediately.

Janet

++++++


The Search for Natalee Holloway

VII. Beginning the Search
 
UPDATE: 18-Dec - 1510 hrs: The Persistence has begun the search. Bathymetric survey nearing completion.

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/12/vii-beginning-search.html

YES!!  According to Legally Lex, they began their bathymetric scannining on Dec 15.  It only took them 3 days to do.

The earliest someone else was on the boat (aside from the crew) would have been Tim Miller on the 18th (and that's giving the benefit of the doubt - as I can only find for certainty that he boarded on the 19th).

So.................we know it was found during this bathymetric scan, because Kyle said it was his first priority target once the ROV dives began.

Meaning - they had found it prior to Dec 18th.

... and considering the contents were identified by a poster commenting at the Boycott Aruba site on December 21, 2007 ... there must have been an ROV dive at the very least. [/color]

Janet

+++++++


The Search for Natalee Holloway

VI. The Arrival

Saturday, Dec-15 - 1615 hrs: ARRIVED at Aruba pilot station. Port Authorities board and the Persistence is cleared for docking.

Sunday, Dec-16 - 1100 hrs: Taking on fresh water. Crew change.

Posted by Kyle Kingman

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/12/vi-arrival.html


The Search for Natalee Holloway

VII. Beginning the Search

UPDATE: 18-Dec - 1510 hrs: The Persistence has begun the search. Bathymetric survey nearing completion.

Before the side scan sonar can be safely towed, the seafloor must be accurately characterised in terms of its topography. The R/V Persistence comes all-stop once it reached the survey area. A sound velocity profile (SVP) is performed to measure the speed of sound throughout the water column. Normally, performing a SVP in deep water is nothing exciting to write home about. However, without announcement and in unison the crew gathers on the back deck of the Persistence and takes a silent vigil as the sensor disappears into the depths. This SVP feels somehow different than the rest. We continue to watch as the instrument approaches bottom. Once it reaches bottom, it is slowly retrieved. Again, the crew awaits silently watching and waiting for the return of the instrument. Suddenly, out of the deep it takes shape and it breaks the surface. Although unspoken, I believe the crew felt this SVP to be somewhat symbolic of what lies ahead.

Line by line, the Persistence collects bathymetry data from within the search area as if conducting an interrogation. After a while, a picture slowly emerges. With a geologic history dating back to the Late Cretaceous, the seabed resembles an old living creature, full of character and tales. We know this creature will fight to hold onto its secrets. However, the very nature of the seabed merely fortifies our resolution and renews our vigor knowing that every crevice will soon be exposed in the light of a side scan sonar.

Posted by Kyle Kingman

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/12/vii-beginning-search.html

We're on the same page here, my friend!!

[jen3560]

12/15/2007
Persistence arrived at Aruba – “1615 hrs: ARRIVED at Aruba pilot station. Port Authorities board and the Persistence is cleared for docking.”

12/18/2007
“UPDATE: 1510 hrs: The Persistence has begun the search.”

12/19/2007
Louis Schaefer, Tim Miller & Dr. Hodges board the Persistence and remain aboard for the next 24 hours.

John Silvetti expresses frustration about the lack of an exact description of the missing crab cage:  “We had several interesting discussions both on deck and in the relatively small galley. At one point, the boat-owner, Capt. John Silvetti (of the J.D. Silvetti Group), expressed his frustration about the lack of an exact description of the missing "crab cage" in which Natalee was likely enclosed. He'd been requesting one for several weeks, and Louis had expressed the identical frustration to me earlier”

12/20/2007
“Thurs. 20-Dec -0430 hrs:  The Persistence has completed the first day of the side scan sonar search.”

Louis Schaefer and Dr. Hodges disembark the Persistence:  “The next day, Louis and I disembarked while Tim went back out on the boat.”

Schaefer leaves Aruba:  “So I took him to the airport the next afternoon, and he planned on returning after Christmas as did I.”

Dr. Hodges journal:   “At this point I called Tim Miller now at sea on The Persistence to pass along the new information about the cage. He put me on the phone with John Silvetti who was pleased with my findings. From the boat they emailed a new copy of the model cage to the person constructing an actual model of the cage, and picked it up the following morning upon returning to shore.”

CapsLockWizard registers at SM, 09:38:24 PM

12/21/2007
Dr. Hodges journal:           
  “By December 21, the search team had an accurate model cage and was able to drop it into the water and obtain a sonar signature of the cage."
 
Photo Credit:  Blonde



But why all the stuff about the "test cage" if they'd already found the real cage?

Your guess at this point would be as good as mine.

And it looks like their mock up was created according to the size of the cage reported missing back in 2005.

[Tamikosmom]

Jen ... it appears that the discovery of the trap was not an issue on December 19th and 20th.  Could it be that Dr. Hodges and Tim Miller were kept in the dark at this point in time.

The post which described the contents of the trap appeared in the Boycott Aruba comment section on December 21st.

Janet

+++++++

DR. ANDREW HODGES

Journal Summary of two trips to Aruba
(between 12/18/07 and 1/2/08)
Probing the ocean deep

December 19
On the next morning (December 19), I boarded The Persistence along with Louis Schaffer and Tim Miller and remained aboard for the next 24 hours as they continued to scan the ocean floor. The staff was impressive—capable, bright, and extremely motivated. They worked virtually through the entire night. Clearly this was going to be one quality search effort.

I can't say enough good things about the crew, people like geologists Kyle Kingman and Rob Floyce who interpreted the data along with Brandon Hernandez of the ROV team.

We had several interesting discussions both on deck and in the relatively small galley. At one point, the boat-owner, Capt. John Silvetti (of the J.D. Silvetti Group), expressed his frustration about the lack of an exact description of the missing "crab cage" in which Natalee was likely enclosed. He'd been requesting one for several weeks, and Louis had expressed the identical frustration to me earlier.

From the best reports he could obtain, Tim had determined an approximate cage size. The search team commissioned the construction of a model cage and planned to drop it underwater to obtain as accurate a scan signature as possible to enable quicker identification of the actual cage.

December 20
The next day, Louis and I disembarked while Tim went back out on the boat. It was clear that the first part of the search (before the ROV team could be called upon) was going to take significantly longer, and we both had business in the U.S. So I took him to the airport the next afternoon, and he planned on returning after Christmas as did I.

http://forensicthoughtprints.com/aruba/default.html

[jen3560]

Janet - if those posts at Michelle's site were based in fact (which I believe) rather than a miraculously accurate and detailed guess........................

then YES Tim Miller (and likely Hodges and also Dateline who boarded with Tim) were kept in the dark.

No way would I ever believe that Tim Miller would keep information from Natalee's family.

[Tamikosmom]

THE DECEPTION - WHY?

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #777 11/21/08 thru
« Reply #707 on: November 23, 2008, 03:31:18 PM »

I found the trap sonar target at 1:42 am on Christmas morning.  I was asked if I had any targets to investigate with the ROV on Dev 29th.  I did.  We then performed the 1st ROV dive and confirmed the sonar target was the trap.  This was the first ROV dive performed.  No other dives were performed prior to this.  I kept the sonar target list very confidential.  I didn't need people knowing about it and people on board knew well enough not even to ask.  When it was time to dive I have the target location. Until then, it was kept confidential.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4159.msg554268;topicseen#msg554268

[Tamikosmom]

Lifesong ... your timeline is a Godsend.

Janet

++++++

Topic: Superior Offshore - Timeline (by Lifesong)

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4578.0

[Lifesong]

I don't feel comfortable just deciding that those posts are true without a lot more looking into them.  There is an awful lot of crazy there and this is the blog post the the comments actually started on.   


http://arubanboycott.blogspot.com/2007/12/will-persistence-pay-off.html

December 13, 2007
WILL "PERSISTENCE" PAY OFF?

SEARCHING FOR NATALEE

WILL THE SEARCH VESSEL PERSISTENCE FIND SUCCESS?

Check out this spectacular website detailing all the efforts into finding Natalee.

http://www.nholloway.blogspot.com/

The purpose of the blog is to give an inside look into the search for Natalee. All writings from this blog are from a geophysical engineer and marine geologist on board the search vessel R/V Persistence. Behind the search effort is a team of individuals with a single unified focus and purpose: Find Natalee Holloway.

Excerpts from Kyle Kingman
(Geophysical Engineer and Marine Geologist)

"...The final and most elaborate search for Natalee Holloway has begun. This is likely the most complicated post-mortem search of its kind in history. This case has had many twists and turns during it's 2+ year history. This is one of the final chapters that will hopefully provide closure both to the Holloway family and to the watching world.

I've described this search to reporters and friends as a search for a needle in a field of hay stacks while hovering hundreds of feet above the field. However, we have the best needle-detecting equipment and detectors on the planet. The attitude on board the boat is unanimous and unwavering. We know that if God wants her body found, the chances of success are perfect.

It's clear to me that we are again being beckoned into regions of the unknown. We all have our hopes and expectations on what will happen and what we will find. All of us replay slightly differing scenarios through our minds as we lay awake tonight. There is one common thread however that permeates all of us. We know that God has us here for a purpose, and that purpose is being achieved and revealed to us one word of the manuscript at a time."

To put this all in perspective...

We will be searching waters as deep as 6 times the height of the Statue of Liberty, or almost as high as the Empire State Building.
The equipment is towed behind the boat near the seafloor almost 1-mile behind the boat, or over 16 football fields away.
There are swift currents, rough seafloor topography, and unknown terrain.
We are looking for a target the size of a shopping cart within the area of Manhattan.

"...The target is a ~1m x 1m fish/crab trap. A search of this size and complexity, utilizing some of the best equipment and personnel in the world would typically cost around $80K per day, or well over $1 Million. However, due to some deep-pocketed private benefactors and mass-charitable collaboration among multiple equipment lease and marine survey companies, this project is being conducted... without charge."

Neither the US or Dutch government is paying for it.

The equipment consists of the following:
Side scan sonar (Edgetech FS4200)
SeaEye ROV, or remotely operated vehicle
Sonardyne USBL (Ultra-Short Base-Line) system providing acoustic tracking of the side scan sonar and ROV
Navigation provided by WinFrog software
The vessel positioning is provided by multiple Trimble GPS receivers giving us about 1m accuracy.
Communications (Phone, data transmit, and Internet) are performed by an Agiosat Global Communications Marine Tracking System.


THANK YOU TO THOSE INVOLVED:
Louis Schaefer Jr. - Project Lead and Key Contributor
Tim Miller - Project Management -Founder of Texas Equusearch
http://www.texasequusearch.org/
Tim Trahan - Underwater Expeditions - Project Management
John Silvetti - Project Lead and Key Contributor
Responsible for overall project planning and development.
Owner of Marine Surveys, LLC .
http://silvettigroup.com/
Marc Broussard - Project Manager
Kent Bourg- Party Chief
Kyle Kingman - Geophysical Engineer and Marine Geologist
Dr. Rob Floyd - Marine Geologist /Archaeologist
Anthony Fontenot - Acoustic Positioning Technician

For a detailed report of what is currently going on
please CLICK HERE...you won't be disappointed!

I've copied off all of the comments posted to the site from 12/13/2007 to 1/03/2008 so far and have been working through them...more to come later on that.

The only point I want to make is that the pattern of these comments is to make up stuff that 'could' happen but hasn't.  I've also seen the name "Ramm" referred to several times, fwiw.

Don't get me wrong - the posts might be based in truth, but they might not.   

JMO and only MO