Natalee Case Discussion #727 2/8 - 2/10/08

[caesu]

I would think the seizure thing is only Joran's lie and was researched from his computer. The hitting the head thing is to account for the injury to her head. It followed later with the HI story and involves all three. This points more to the boat than an incinerator clean-up. Assuming J2k even were privy to the clean-up.

researching from his computer.

could be even that joran is reading all this right now.
and trying to spin things around.
on dutch-forums some persons have really strange thoughts about some things.
but they are in a shrinking minority.
i have no information about his internet being cut of. he is still 100% free man.
only for the public he is dead man walking.

the hype has died down quite a bit the last 2 days.

on the political side is was very quiet.
only that comment from the top-official from the OM saying that Peter R. did a very good job.
and OM isn't even legaslative.

the many little political party's. each party one issue.
and unfortunately to opposition party's (VVD and even more PVV) are in the opposition.

bad luck...

[Kat_Gram]

Also ... I caught him cheating when he thought I was not looking.  Four years old???  Cheating???

[Kiwi]

I agree Tylergal and Bladerunner, its kind of a fluid lie. Whats ever is needed at the time. Somewhere there is a little of the truth in every statement.

[Bladerunner]

Daury = Steve Croes

Here is why I believe this~

Steve Croes has taken Emergency Medical Technician (EMT)training. He has some skills which could be useful to Joran when he was in a panic about Natalee's seizure.

I am thinking Steve probably did help him out on describing symptoms that would look like a seizure, or maybe Palus looked them up on the i-net so before they called in the coverups who saw immediately it would not fly, they all decided to "no body, no case."
Just too much revealing evidence, I would say.  Too many bite, bruise marks and perhaps kick marks.  Too many things that "seizures" just would not hold up.  Not even a "she just fell and hit her head on the way back into the HI where we returned her."
Yes, and now that Joran has shown his true colors to the world, there are some people sweating besides Palus.         Jack Blue

OK, I am going to say she NEVER had a seizure.  She was bludgeoned.  Paulus found an on-line area to support what they could say she died of.  The search on the Internet was the origin of the "seizures."  The seizures never happened.  It was a way to make him look innocent, blame the victim.

I agree 100% Tyler.  You hit the nail right on the head.

But why would you make up a scenario that could never be supported by the physical evidence, if it were ever found, and assuming she suffered a fatal blow?  Meaning, if they bludgeoned her a seizure would not mean much.

Then explain why one of the first statements out of the "mouths of the pimps" was that she had hurt her head and then Paulus tells his USA friend that she hit her head on some rocks and drowned.  What is the "Head" thing all about?  They supported the head injury and the drugs with "dying from seizure."  She probably never had a seizure.  They beat her in the head.  Then they said she "fell and hit her head," "She was in the water, hit her head on some rocks and drowned."  Explain that with seizures. 

So they get the seizure alternative story from the internet and Joran tells the investigators that she starts shaking when they are on the beach, he gets scared and leaves her, therefore he knows not what happened to her after that. The shaking story he recounts in the car video is likely the same one he told the investigators--minus the disposing of the body. The investigators have not got a confession from him, but know that she had a seizure occured--according to Joran. But even with this information they look the other way.

That's what I think.  She had seizures (because they found on line that could occur) with Joran and he can now leave her at the beach for Martians to beat her in the head (in case she is found) but after a period of time he knows the body is not going to be recovered, so he goes with seizures and overboard.  He has probably told himself this story so many times that even he believes it.

One thing I don't get is what advantage would Joran get from mentioning seizures at all to investigators? If his story was that she had a seizure while on the beach and he left her then wouldn't that be a crime in and of itself? Why not just say he left her?

Again, I believe investigators were fed a seizure story, but looked the other way. But I still don't get how such a story would help Joran and Co.

[dennisintn]

  I am more sceptical of what has been edited out of the tape made by deVriess than I am or ever will be of Jossy. To me the tape just misses the point of being damning!!!  Why???   Why did Joran not brag to Patrick about drugging her???  Raping her????  What good stuff to impress a gangster if "one really wants to "!!!??  All he says is, she seemed to be dead and he wanted to "CRY"  !!!!   What does that make him guilty of?????

jvds didn't tell patrick about the daterape drugs or the kalpoe's being there because he was playing his role of mr. studly.  she wanted this, she wanted that.  even to most criminals daterape, and gangraping drugged victims is frowned upon. 
dennisintn

[Tamikosmom]

Yes they tried to frame the guards but the "heavy battery" charge was against Guido Wever, I think.

janssen was quoted as saying "there's more than circumstantial evidence" to hold the guards for murder...

Tamikosmom, can you help?

Hi Frank.

Janet

++++++++++

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159285,00.html

Mom: Three Young Detainees 'Know What Happened' to Missing Teen
Sunday, June 12, 2005

<snipped>

Defense lawyers for the former security guards said there wasn't enough evidence to continue holding them.

"This is turning into a game, an illogical investigation," said Noraina Pietersz, the attorney representing Antonius "Mickey" John, 30. John and Abraham Jones, 28, had been detained a week as of Sunday, and have denied any connection to Holloway. "The prosecution is pretending it has information that we don't have."

Attorney General Caren Janssen said Sunday that wasn't the case but declined to give details. "We are still in the middle of an investigation," she said.

<snipped>

[Destiny]

By the way... I want the Kalpoe suit to proceed. It will expose even more corruption and that's a beautiful thing.

Destiny here...FYI...one number went to beach patrol headquaters...sounds like they like to party there LOL

[Dayhiker]

i would be great if he can do a sting operation on paul vds too. *dreaming*

but it would have been great if the sting operation joran/patrick went on a bit longer.
like making a trip with him to aruba... Patrick: "so joran where are your shoes..."

tonight Peter R. on Geraldo at Large!

If my guess is correct, this will be a GREAT SHOW.  Geraldo does not seem to be impeded with political correctness.  He's a no-holes-barred kind of interviewer.

I agree wholeheartedly, Tyler. Geraldo has never stepped away from the date rape drug aspect and he was the one who covered the sting in front of Carlos & Charlies where drugs were being sold out in the open.

He and deVries should get along famously. This should be an excellent show.

[dennisintn]

[

One thing I don't get is what advantage would Joran get from mentioning seizures at all to investigators? If his story was that she had a seizure while on the beach and he left her then wouldn't that be a crime in and of itself? Why not just say he left her?

Again, I believe investigators were fed a seizure story, but looked the other way. But I still don't get how such a story would help Joran and Co.
[/quote]

i think paulus picked out the "seizure" symptoms for jvds to use if he got arrested.  he was researching drugs/alcohol  sites the morning natalee disappeared.  criminals they are, stupid they aren't.
dennisintn

[Kiwi]

I would think the seizure thing is only Joran's lie and was researched from his computer. The hitting the head thing is to account for the injury to her head. It followed later with the HI story and involves all three. This points more to the boat than an incinerator clean-up. Assuming J2k even were privy to the clean-up.

researching from his computer.

could be even that joran is reading all this right now.
and trying to spin things around.
on dutch-forums some persons have really strange thoughts about some things.
but they are in a shrinking minority.
i have no information about his internet being cut of. he is still 100% free man.
only for the public he is dead man walking.

the hype has died down quite a bit the last 2 days.

on the political side is was very quiet.
only that comment from the top-official from the OM saying that Peter R. did a very good job.
and OM isn't even legaslative.

the many little political party's. each party one issue.
and unfortunately to opposition party's (VVD and even more PVV) are in the opposition.

bad luck...

I'll speak directly to that. Joran if your reading this. Be a man and end the suffering of your family, friends and Aruba. Be a real gangster and take the punishment.

[Dayhiker]

  I am more sceptical of what has been edited out of the tape made by deVriess than I am or ever will be of Jossy. To me the tape just misses the point of being damning!!!  Why???   Why did Joran not brag to Patrick about drugging her???  Raping her????  What good stuff to impress a gangster if "one really wants to "!!!??  All he says is, she seemed to be dead and he wanted to "CRY"  !!!!   What does that make him guilty of?????

jvds didn't tell patrick about the daterape drugs or the kalpoe's being there because he was playing his role of mr. studly.  she wanted this, she wanted that.  even to most criminals daterape, and gangraping drugged victims is frowned upon. 
dennisintn

In the process describing to Patrick the exact symptoms of what date rape drugs do to their victims. He had bragged to his schoolmates in the past about, and had a reputation for, using date rape drugs.

Let us hope Mos has gone back and pulled some of these interviews and made a few inquiries of his own.

[caesu]

I would like to know what Godfather Peter Freeze's special thoughts on Paulus are.

he is coming back to the netherlands sunday.
i don't expect him doing many media appearances. maybe one or two to talk about is usa tour.
first of all, he must be very very tired.
but he will let the OM do their job and then when nobody expects it anymore BOOOM another bombshell.

i would be great if he can do a sting operation on paul vds too. *dreaming*

but it would have been great if the sting operation joran/patrick went on a bit longer.
like making a trip with him to aruba... Patrick: "so joran where are your shoes..."

tonight Peter R. on Geraldo at Large!

If my guess is correct, this will be a GREAT SHOW.  Geraldo does not seem to be impeded with political correctness.  He's a no-holes-barred kind of interviewer.

i was very impressed with Nancy Grace. she is very much awake.

Larry King was most of the time deep asleep.

Greta van Susteren goes to fast. doesn't let Peter R. explain himself. doesn't take time to ask the question slowly with good pronounciation. i don't think Peter wil come on her show again. i send Greta a messages about that.

20/20 wasn't much news of course for me after seeing SBS6.

and Good Morning America... well that's was just very briefly, not even trying to scratch a surface.

mmm.... was that all??

i hope you guys manage to get him on your radio.
of course  he aims for as large audience as possible.
but no doubt Peter R. talking on SM-radio, that's is just productive and good and deserved and everything.

[Rob]

By the way... I want the Kalpoe suit to proceed. It will expose even more corruption and that's a beautiful thing.

Destiny here...FYI...one number went to beach patrol headquaters...sounds like they like to party there LOL

Hi Destiny - I think you're right - one number is beach patrol.

Adolf Cruz from Search and Rescue - 297 - 962 - 1380

V.D. Stuater. (Appears to be a cop, phone number - 297 - 587 - 0009 Polis Station.)

Debra Bolten - U.S. Council.

Mr. Vera - Hotel Security.

Beach Patrol - 297 - 586 - 3003

[Kiwi]

[

One thing I don't get is what advantage would Joran get from mentioning seizures at all to investigators? If his story was that she had a seizure while on the beach and he left her then wouldn't that be a crime in and of itself? Why not just say he left her?

Again, I believe investigators were fed a seizure story, but looked the other way. But I still don't get how such a story would help Joran and Co.

i think paulus picked out the "seizure" symptoms for jvds to use if he got arrested.  he was researching drugs/alcohol  sites the morning natalee disappeared.  criminals they are, stupid they aren't.
dennisintn
[/quote]The multiple statements seem to work well. Each one gives a different result in punishment.

[Dayhiker]

[

One thing I don't get is what advantage would Joran get from mentioning seizures at all to investigators? If his story was that she had a seizure while on the beach and he left her then wouldn't that be a crime in and of itself? Why not just say he left her?

Again, I believe investigators were fed a seizure story, but looked the other way. But I still don't get how such a story would help Joran and Co.

i think paulus picked out the "seizure" symptoms for jvds to use if he got arrested.  he was researching drugs/alcohol  sites the morning natalee disappeared.  criminals they are, stupid they aren't.
dennisintn
[/quote]


I can see it going like this Dennis:

Joran tells Paulus she had a seizure and died. Paulus sees his and Joran's future passing before his eyes and arranges the disposal of Natalee.

Then Paulus makes a phone call. "Jan, we have a small problem. A girl has had a seizure."

Uncle Van der Straten takes over from the police end. Remember Rudy saying there were some disturbing phone calls between Paulus and VDStraten early in the investigation?

[Tylergal]

Daury = Steve Croes

Here is why I believe this~

Steve Croes has taken Emergency Medical Technician (EMT)training. He has some skills which could be useful to Joran when he was in a panic about Natalee's seizure.

I am thinking Steve probably did help him out on describing symptoms that would look like a seizure, or maybe Palus looked them up on the i-net so before they called in the coverups who saw immediately it would not fly, they all decided to "no body, no case."
Just too much revealing evidence, I would say.  Too many bite, bruise marks and perhaps kick marks.  Too many things that "seizures" just would not hold up.  Not even a "she just fell and hit her head on the way back into the HI where we returned her."
Yes, and now that Joran has shown his true colors to the world, there are some people sweating besides Palus.         Jack Blue

OK, I am going to say she NEVER had a seizure.  She was bludgeoned.  Paulus found an on-line area to support what they could say she died of.  The search on the Internet was the origin of the "seizures."  The seizures never happened.  It was a way to make him look innocent, blame the victim.

I agree 100% Tyler.  You hit the nail right on the head.

But why would you make up a scenario that could never be supported by the physical evidence, if it were ever found, and assuming she suffered a fatal blow?  Meaning, if they bludgeoned her a seizure would not mean much.

Then explain why one of the first statements out of the "mouths of the pimps" was that she had hurt her head and then Paulus tells his USA friend that she hit her head on some rocks and drowned.  What is the "Head" thing all about?  They supported the head injury and the drugs with "dying from seizure."  She probably never had a seizure.  They beat her in the head.  Then they said she "fell and hit her head," "She was in the water, hit her head on some rocks and drowned."  Explain that with seizures. 

So they get the seizure alternative story from the internet and Joran tells the investigators that she starts shaking when they are on the beach, he gets scared and leaves her, therefore he knows not what happened to her after that. The shaking story he recounts in the car video is likely the same one he told the investigators--minus the disposing of the body. The investigators have not got a confession from him, but know that she had a seizure occured--according to Joran. But even with this information they look the other way.

That's what I think.  She had seizures (because they found on line that could occur) with Joran and he can now leave her at the beach for Martians to beat her in the head (in case she is found) but after a period of time he knows the body is not going to be recovered, so he goes with seizures and overboard.  He has probably told himself this story so many times that even he believes it.

One thing I don't get is what advantage would Joran get from mentioning seizures at all to investigators? If his story was that she had a seizure while on the beach and he left her then wouldn't that be a crime in and of itself? Why not just say he left her?

Again, I believe investigators were fed a seizure story, but looked the other way. But I still don't get how such a story would help Joran and Co.

Go back in time and listen to Anita, what she told Greta.  He left her on the beach, he's a 17-year-old kid, not realizing how dangerous that was but there "were other adults there."

[Kat_Gram]

DeVries plays his cards close to the vest. He has more I am sure of that.

[Tamikosmom]

i would be great if he can do a sting operation on paul vds too. *dreaming*

but it would have been great if the sting operation joran/patrick went on a bit longer.
like making a trip with him to aruba... Patrick: "so joran where are your shoes..."

tonight Peter R. on Geraldo at Large!

If my guess is correct, this will be a GREAT SHOW.  Geraldo does not seem to be impeded with political correctness.  He's a no-holes-barred kind of interviewer.

I agree wholeheartedly, Tyler. Geraldo has never stepped away from the date rape drug aspect and he was the one who covered the sting in front of Carlos & Charlies where drugs were being sold out in the open.

He and deVries should get along famously. This should be an excellent show.

Dayhiker ... I do not agree.

Bill O'Relly and Geraldo Rivera promoted the Aruban agenda that Natalee was responsible for her own demise when they got on the Julia Renfro/Gerold Dompig bandwagon following the release of the video/article ... THE OTHER SIDE OF THE NATALEE HOLLOWAY STORY.

Janet

+++++++++

The O'Reilly Factor
July 20, 2007

BILL O'REILLY, HOST: And I've got to give a viewer advisory here that this is information that "The Factor" has not been able to confirm independently because there is no body. But law enforcement officials believe that exactly what I said, that Natalee took a massive overdose of cocaine and when she died these boys disposed of her body.
GERALDO RIVERA, HOST, "GERALDO AT LARGE": I think it's entirely plausible.

[Bladerunner]

[

One thing I don't get is what advantage would Joran get from mentioning seizures at all to investigators? If his story was that she had a seizure while on the beach and he left her then wouldn't that be a crime in and of itself? Why not just say he left her?

Again, I believe investigators were fed a seizure story, but looked the other way. But I still don't get how such a story would help Joran and Co.

i think paulus picked out the "seizure" symptoms for jvds to use if he got arrested.  he was researching drugs/alcohol  sites the morning natalee disappeared.  criminals they are, stupid they aren't.
dennisintn
[/quote]

Right, but again, what is better to say if you are arrested:

1) I just left her there and went home

2) She had a seizure and I just left her there and went home

It doesn't make sense why he would mention a seizure to investigators, which leaves me to believe he might not have provided that information.

However, perhaps Paulus told Van Der Straten that Joran got scared and called him because she had a seizure and died on the beach. He also tells him that they went back and brought the body to their house but now fear people won't believe their story. Van Der Straten tells them he will help dispose of the body. Along the way Van Der Straten mentions seizures to the other investigators who in turn ask the Holloway's repeatedly about this.

Something still doesn't add up here for me.

[Ono]

 Tony, I think they have found their "HELL"  already!!!! Or it has found them.  Just let them wallow in it.
    Wonder if Joran has an American attorney anymore?  I think maybe Tacopina has a bigger job in NYC and Italy now that so many arrests were made in the Gambino and Gotti families....

They had to let all of the Gambinos go because they said that they were
stoned when they committed the crimes.

   I love it!