Lively Case Discussion #500 7/22 - 7/24/2006

[Tylergal]

Ono, I just do not see how we can omit Paulus from direct involvement.  Is it because many of us do not want to admit grown me do these things everyday and even grown women are openly involved in sexual abuse of minors.  We are living in some sick times.

[Ono]

How did Lorenzo's name get brought into this again?

Can't quite remember...didn't he have to go into ALE for questioning, (or we were told that) ? Was he really just a red herring?

[BTgirl]

Ono, I just do not see how we can omit Paulus from direct involvement.  Is it because many of us do not want to admit grown me do these things everyday and even grown women are openly involved in sexual abuse of minors.  We are living in some sick times.

Tyler,

I'm giving serious thought to what you said about the direct involvement of Paulus. If Paulus wanted her for himself, do you think pornography played a role in what happened to Natalee? Also, do you think Freddy was involved at some point?

Thanks.

[Tylergal]

Ono, I just do not see how we can omit Paulus from direct involvement.  Is it because many of us do not want to admit grown me do these things everyday and even grown women are openly involved in sexual abuse of minors.  We are living in some sick times.

Tyler,

I'm giving serious thought to what you said about the direct involvement of Paulus. If Paulus wanted her for himself, do you think pornography played a role in what happened to Natalee? Also, do you think Freddy was involved at some point?

Thanks.

The elders know about the pornography, and participate in it.  Yes, Paulus wanted Natalee, Freddy was told he could be the videographer.  "Freddy has to tell the truth."  Freddy needs to render the video to the police.  Freddy needs to tell what he saw.

[Ono]

Ono, I just do not see how we can omit Paulus from direct involvement.  Is it because many of us do not want to admit grown me do these things everyday and even grown women are openly involved in sexual abuse of minors.  We are living in some sick times.

I think that plus the thought is just so repugnent.  I have tried and treid to see it from all angles and for some reason my thoughts return to the distinct possibility. My friends always have said from the beginning that this was an adult crime, Joran the lure/contact, and the Kalpoes the transportation. I toss it all around in my head from all perspectives but there are some very shocking things which go on everyday everywhere.

[Peaches]

Ono, I just do not see how we can omit Paulus from direct involvement.  Is it because many of us do not want to admit grown me do these things everyday and even grown women are openly involved in sexual abuse of minors.  We are living in some sick times.

Tyler,

I'm giving serious thought to what you said about the direct involvement of Paulus. If Paulus wanted her for himself, do you think pornography played a role in what happened to Natalee? Also, do you think Freddy was involved at some point?

Thanks.

Yes.  This is it.

The elders know about the pornography, and participate in it.  Yes, Paulus wanted Natalee, Freddy was told he could be the videographer.  "Freddy has to tell the truth."  Freddy needs to render the video to the police.  Freddy needs to tell what he saw.

[SunFreak2]

Sunfreak2, there has always been something that bugged me.  I do not want this to sound like I am trying to exploit the sexuality or privacy of this, but Beth always said, insisted "Natalee was a virgin."  We know that mothers usually do not think too much about that unless there is a reason.

If Natalee was taken into the doctor for a checkup, could there have been a need for Natalee to have surgery that Beth knew about?  Under these circumstances, her mother could/would have been told, or not told but the need for the surgery would imply such.  I know that this is difficult for those without a medical background to understand, but this does happen and without the surgery, vaginal penetration could be devastating.

I think you are referring to imperforate hymen.  That is usually taken care of by surgery when the girl reaches menarche.  It's very rare, but there could have been agenesis of the vagina, meaning that one was not formed in utero.  Typically women do not die as a result of the rape alone, but usually from violence during the rape to silence them or after the rape to keep the victim from reporting it.  Babies are more likely to die as a complication during or after the rape, and the eldery from coranaries or strokes during the rape.  An otherwise healthy virginal teenager most likely would have to have some additional medical condition contributing to the death, such as a clotting disorder, asthma, seizure or cardiac abnormality.

[Ono]

Oops..meant "repugnant".

[wreck]

Tylergal:

The elders know about the pornography, and participate in it. Yes, Paulus wanted Natalee, Freddy was told he could be the videographer. "Freddy has to tell the truth." Freddy needs to render the video to the police. Freddy needs to tell what he saw.

I'm with you -- I just doubt there is a remote chance that a video STILL exists.

[Shizaru]

Shiz, what is your opinion regards the level of involvement by Paulus?

I don't think he had any involvement in the crime itself, just the cover-up and possibly body disposal.

I'll add that I don't think Paulus even knew anything was wrong until after the Alabama group arrived at his door, otherwise Joran would have had a better story prepared than the HI lie.  Altho, I think as soon as he heard that a girl was missing and Joran was the last seen with her he suspected Joran was responsible and tried to buy him some time in case he needed it.

[thirdstrike]

Ono, I just do not see how we can omit Paulus from direct involvement.  Is it because many of us do not want to admit grown me do these things everyday and even grown women are openly involved in sexual abuse of minors.  We are living in some sick times.

It's  not that at all Tyler.  Trust me, I'm well aware that there are some real sick people living int he world today.  One click of the remote and I can have that pretty much confirmed.  So again, that wouldn't be the basis for my arguement...

I just haven't been convinced by any of the fact of this case (that we know of anyway) that he was directtly involved.  What I see is a clueless father who's once again had to find a way to keep his criminal son out of trouble with the law.  Not saying I'm right at all.  I'm just saying that's what I believe.  But, I can see how that statement could make others think differently...

Just my 2 cents.

[thirdstrike]

Shiz, what is your opinion regards the level of involvement by Paulus?

I don't think he had any involvement in the crime itself, just the cover-up and possibly body disposal.

I'll add that I don't think Paulus even knew anything was wrong until after the Alabama group arrived at his door, otherwise Joran would have had a better story prepared than the HI lie.  Altho, I think as soon as he heard that a girl was missing and Joran was the last seen with her he suspected Joran was responsible and tried to buy him some time in case he needed it.

I think that's a VERY good point Shiz!!  Fits right in with my theory...

[Ono]

The mere fact that Joran felt the need to qualify WHY his father was brought to the casino in the first place that evening is suspicious. Who would have thought that going to an Aruban casino (not a lot to do on Aruba) in the evening unusual unless the perhaps a plan was to scope out someone for nefarious reasons? The fact that Joran added that detail is a red flag.

[Tylergal]

The mere fact that Joran felt the need to qualify WHY his father was brought to the casino in the first place that evening is suspicious. Who would have thought that going to an Aruban casino (not a lot to do on Aruba) in the evening unusual unless the perhaps a plan was to scope out someone for nefarious reasons? The fact that Joran added that detail is a red flag.

Yes, there were too many casino lies about the father.

I do believe Paulus did not answer the door that night for 45 minutes for a reason.  He was very caught off guard that a family would come to Aruba to try to find their daughter.  I think he thought the family would be told she was dropped off at the Holiday Inn, someone grabbed her and the family would go away.

I see Paulus' fingerprints all over this from the first moment I saw Natalee on the video at the HI, to the lies told by Joran, to Anita describing Natalee's underwear (and I think that was because Anita saw a video of the underwear or the underwear themselves, perhaps Paulus' souvenir).  

Paulus is the main culprit.

Deepak:  "Your own father, unbelievable."

[wreck]

The mere fact that Joran felt the need to qualify WHY his father was brought to the casino in the first place that evening is suspicious. Who would have thought that going to an Aruban casino (not a lot to do on Aruba) in the evening unusual unless the perhaps a plan was to scope out someone for nefarious reasons? The fact that Joran added that detail is a red flag.

I DO think the "elders" are involved in some way. If some powerful "elders" were NOT involved -- there would not be this level of COVER-UP.

[Ono]

Shiz, what is your opinion regards the level of involvement by Paulus?

I don't think he had any involvement in the crime itself, just the cover-up and possibly body disposal.

I'll add that I don't think Paulus even knew anything was wrong until after the Alabama group arrived at his door, otherwise Joran would have had a better story prepared than the HI lie.  Altho, I think as soon as he heard that a girl was missing and Joran was the last seen with her he suspected Joran was responsible and tried to buy him some time in case he needed it.

However, it could be said that the reason using the HI lie was so clumsy, was because Joran/Paulus had no idea that Natalee's family would be showing up and so swiftly and so astutely.  In their being caught off guard and in their haste to come up with a story, using that HI excuse was the first thought which popped into their heads. Paulus had no idea that Beth could/would check on the video out in front of the HI.

[Ono]

The mere fact that Joran felt the need to qualify WHY his father was brought to the casino in the first place that evening is suspicious. Who would have thought that going to an Aruban casino (not a lot to do on Aruba) in the evening unusual unless the perhaps a plan was to scope out someone for nefarious reasons? The fact that Joran added that detail is a red flag.

I DO think the "elders" are involved in some way. If some powerful "elders" were NOT involved -- there would not be this level of COVER-UP.

Oh, absolutely...it's as clear as crystal to all.

[Tylergal]

The mere fact that Joran felt the need to qualify WHY his father was brought to the casino in the first place that evening is suspicious. Who would have thought that going to an Aruban casino (not a lot to do on Aruba) in the evening unusual unless the perhaps a plan was to scope out someone for nefarious reasons? The fact that Joran added that detail is a red flag.

I DO think the "elders" are involved in some way. If some powerful "elders" were NOT involved -- there would not be this level of COVER-UP.

Exactly!  Joran iterates he does what his family tells him to do.  His family told him to keep Paulus out of this.  Why does Paulus carry Joran's water and luggage?  Because he is guilty? Why is Joran not at home, living under his parents' roof?  Is he now sickened by what he and his father did together, knowing his own father would set him up and is he more enangered at his little chicken mother Anita for living with this child predator?  Does Joran know things that go on in that house with his brothers?  Food for thought.  Check incest and under-age sex in the Netherlands.

[mrs. red]

I do believe Paulus did not answer the door that night for 45 minutes for a reason.  He was very caught off guard that a family would come to Aruba to try to find their daughter.  I think he thought the family would be told she was dropped off at the Holiday Inn, someone grabbed her and the family would go away.

I see Paulus' fingerprints all over this from the first moment I saw Natalee on the video at the HI, to the lies told by Joran, to Anita describing Natalee's underwear (and I think that was because Anita saw a video of the underwear or the underwear themselves, perhaps Paulus' souvenir).  

Paulus is the main culprit.

Deepak:  "Your own father, unbelievable."[/quote]


I think they used the flasher of that woman which was known all over Aruba as the... oh we dropped her off and someone else took her ploy... prior to Natalee and the group being there ... that happened.. .and who would have known of that in advance ...

[mrs. red]

Ok really going.. I will see y'all later!!  keep up the good work...

keep the faith!