Lively Case Discussion #584 2/18 - 2/25/2007

[klaasend]

Posted by MF at FOB (I don't know the source):

The Dutch Defend Their World Empire

February 25, 2007: If Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez made a grab for the Dutch West Indies (specifically the islands of Aruba, Curacao, and Bonaire), could the Dutch really do anything about it? The Dutch military is no slouch, having performed peacekeeping missions in the Balkans and has served alongside the U.S. military in  Iraq. However, these have been relatively small contingents of land forces as opposed to a major naval-air campaign, which reclaiming those Caribbean islands would entail (see the British effort to reclaim the Falklands in 1982).

The Royal Netherlands Navy is small, but has very good ships. This force carries a lengthy tradition going back centuries, a tradition that includes beating the British at sea many times. Their new De Zeven Provincien-class destroyers are good ships armed with SM-2MR and Evolved Sea Sparrow surface-to-air missiles and Harpoon anti-ship missiles. The eight Karel Doorman-class frigates are also very good vessels as well, armed with Sea Sparrows and Harpoons. There is also a landing platform dock amphibious vessel, the Rotterdam, with a second vessel, the Johan Van Witt, being built. The Royal Netherlands Air Force is also potent, but primarily designed for a war in Europe. It consists of 108 F-16As  with a mid-life upgrade, making them very capable against aerial opponents. This is the bulk of their combat power. They have 30 AH-64D Longbow Apaches being delivered, and only three KDC-10F aerial refueling aircraft (comparable to the KC-10) for their entire force. This is a force that has a lot of teeth, but very little tail.

In the event that Venezuela should seize Aruba, Curacao, and/or Bonaire, Chavez will have a lot of places in Venezuela for his  Air Force to reach the Dutch islands. The nearest Dutch territory is St. Marteen, which is anywhere from 844 (to Bonaire) to 965 (to Aruba) kilometers from the combat zone. The F-16's range is 2642 kilometers, but that figure is misleading. Combat eats up fuel very rapidly (often due to the use of afterburners), and as a result, the potential combat zone, even with aerial refueling, is at the edge of the F-16's combat radius (usually a third of the aircraft's range – in this case, 880 kilometers). Drop tanks could extend the range, but that means giving up some payload. This is a situation much like what the Luftwaffe faced in 1940 in the Battle of Britain, only this time, it would be an inability to provide sustained air cover for naval vessels as opposed to the inability to properly escort strike aircraft. As Admiral Sir Thomas Phillips, commander of Force Z (HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse), found out in 1941, a naval force sailing under hostile skies has an exciting and short life.

The present Dutch deployment (a battalion of troops and a flight of F-16s over three islands) is small, and a bluff. If Venezuela calls the bluff, the Dutch are in trouble. Even if the Dutch forces were reinforced to include a battalion on each island, and a full squadron of F-16s, they are outnumbered by a potential invasion force. Venezuela has four battalions in their marine corps, plus an airborne regiment and a paratroop regiment. The local F-16s would be outnumbered by the Venezuelan Air Force, which has 15 Mirage 5s, 18 F-16As, and 18 F-5As, with 24 Su-30s on order. Reports of a Venezuelan purchase of MiG-29s appear to have fallen through. The Venezuelan Navy, with six Lupo-class frigates and two Type 209 submarines (plus nine Kilo-class submarines on order), could also create problems for any Dutch effort to recapture the islands.

The Dutch submarine force of four Walrus-class diesel-electric submarines could, in theory, try to interdict Venezuelan oil exports, but they are subject to limitations. The primary limitation is their diesel-electric powerplant, which provides a top speed of 39 kilometers per hour. These subs have a range of 18,520 kilometers, but that is at a speed of 16.7 kilometers per hour. In theory, the range is sufficient, since the distance from Rotterdam to Aruba is 7,860 kilometers. Thus while a Walrus-class sub could hang off Venezuela's major oil export centers, it would soon have to leave its station to return to base and refuel. Any blockade of Venezuela's ports would be more about making Lloyd's of London skittish enough to pull coverage from any ship entering or leaving the ports. Actual damage would be a lot less than imagined due to the strain of operating diesel-electric submarines across the Atlantic, and the very limited time on station, particularly after a speed run. Again, the major question could be whether St. Marteen would be a place where the Dutch could refuel and re-arm submarines.

The Dutch problem can best be described with the words, "not enough". Not enough forces to successfully repel an invasion of Aruba, Curacao, and Bonaire; not enough naval power to carry out operations to retake the islands; their fighters do not have enough range; and not enough logistical support to support an operation. They certainly lack the ability to retake the islands on their own should the "Greater Venezuela" rhetoric from the Venezuelan dictator turn out to be for real. However, assistance from NATO allies, especially the United States and Britain, would give the Dutch an edge, and a clear shot at regaining their Caribbean islands.

[Kat_Gram]

I just wanted to say that pix like that or any emails I fwd to ppl have gone thru a virus wash at my work. I get about ten really good ones a week. I fwd them from work to myself. The virus checker at work is a
combination of purchased and fed goverment written. Their standards are very high.

[Dana]

I just wanted to say that pix like that or any emails I fwd to ppl have gone thru a virus wash at my work. I get about ten really good ones a week. I fwd them from work to myself. The virus checker at work is a
combination of purchased and fed goverment written. Their standards are very high.

The federal government has standards ?
 

[MisGivings]

LOL! Gosh, Klaas, you know me well!
For someone who trips over air, I will try not too.
I was going to go find a blow torch.....

[klaasend]

LOL! Gosh, Klaas, you know me well!
For someone who trips over air, I will try not too.
I was going to go find a blow torch.....

I think a hairdryer would be safer than a blow torch, don't you?

[Kat_Gram]

I just wanted to say that pix like that or any emails I fwd to ppl have gone thru a virus wash at my work. I get about ten really good ones a week. I fwd them from work to myself. The virus checker at work is a
combination of purchased and fed goverment written. Their standards are very high.

The federal government has standards ?
 

Yes I hear they do. The security thing is becoming a big issue lately.
We have all being going for all day awareness training and the department where I work is investing lots of money in these things.
They get Canada wide 300,000 unauthorized attempts a week to break in. And one Kat trying to break out ! !      
Some of it is applicable to home use also.

[Kat_Gram]

I got phished at home via Pay Pay so I had my own all week awareness
smartening up a few months ago. No consequences, but just the
time consuming paper work and phone calls and anxiety.
It was an email from PayPay so I thought. It asked for a Visa number
which I did not provide, but by then I had given them my PayPal password. Paypal was aware of the scam and they said that do not repond and go out and Google or Yahoo the official PayPay site.
Plus the regular things like change your password on a regualr basis and even if you are not doing transactions, you have to check your accounts frequently. Any accounts, Ebay, Bank, etc

[mishy]

I am shocked I got something right,as a man.i was a RC volunteer and paid employee in the past,when Florence was the head honcho.i think the waters around aruba have a rep as not good diving and are polluted.Finding remains can mean that are willing to give partial answers.Joe wants to blame Boeti,now,but why would Boeti be protected.(billable hours) and how would he have hidden the body?I think the game is afoot.Sherlock Cat

       

[klaasend]

NEW FRONT PAGE POST:

Twins Baseball Pitcher Sidney Ponson … “he stayed away from his biggest problem, Aruba.”

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2007/02/25/twins-baseball-pitcher-sidney-ponson-he-stayed-away-from-his-biggest-problem-aruba/

[mishy]

I just wanted to say that pix like that or any emails I fwd to ppl have gone thru a virus wash at my work. I get about ten really good ones a week. I fwd them from work to myself. The virus checker at work is a
combination of purchased and fed goverment written. Their standards are very high.

The federal government has standards ?
 

Good one, Dana!              

[klaasend]

Breaking News: Arubian Yacht on Fire!        

Sunday, 25 February 2007  
Today the yacht Lobo del Mar from owner of the video rent stores Marathon Supervideo on Aruba, confronted problems on sea near the territorial waters of Venezuela. The yacht received extended fire damage and is yet unknown how many people were on board. Rescue teams from Venezuela rescued all members of the yacht and as of now there's no human casualties. Search and Rescue Aruba are ready to head to Venezuela to bring home all members of the yacht.  

http://www.aruba-zone.com/

[igsigs]

However, assistance from NATO allies, especially the United States and Britain, would give the Dutch an edge, and a clear shot at regaining their Caribbean islands.

No Dice. The last thing we need in another entanglement defending an anti-U.S. populace.

We will gladly observe and watch from a distance, though. That's what Arlene told us our rights were.

[Tibrogargan]

However, assistance from NATO allies, especially the United States and Britain, would give the Dutch an edge, and a clear shot at regaining their Caribbean islands.

No Dice. The last thing we need in another entanglement defending an anti-U.S. populace.

We will gladly observe and watch from a distance, though. That's what Arlene told us our rights were.

Nicely stated, igsigs

[Tibrogargan]

Posted by MF at FOB (I don't know the source):

The Dutch problem can best be described with the words, "not enough".

First true statement I have read from them  

[MisGivings]

LOL! Gosh, Klaas, you know me well!
For someone who trips over air, I will try not too.
I was going to go find a blow torch.....

I think a hairdryer would be safer than a blow torch, don't you?

************************************************************
I was able to finally dig it out today. We are having a melt down, with more rain on the way, but not freezing rain.
I called the landlord, and he is going to come soon to open up the cellar from the other side for me. The cellar is divided into 2 areas, one where the furnace and some storage is, and one where I keep my washer and dryer. They are divided by a wood board. Landlord is going to cut out a door for me so I can access the breaker box from my dry half.

[Kat_Gram]

" Not Enough " seems to describe everything on Aruba.
In the agreement for Independence from the Netherlands, Aruba was to invest in Health and Education and some other things for its people.
But if you give your money to lobbyists, it isn't going to happen.

[nonesuche]

However, assistance from NATO allies, especially the United States and Britain, would give the Dutch an edge, and a clear shot at regaining their Caribbean islands.

No Dice. The last thing we need in another entanglement defending an anti-U.S. populace.

We will gladly observe and watch from a distance, though. That's what Arlene told us our rights were.

here, here igsigs.......I'll provide the popcorn  

[nonesuche]

fyi Klaas, we just perfected chocolate fondant, I got to send you one of these chocolate bunnies now  

I need to get on the treadmill, I think just inhaling this stuff is fattening

[Kat_Gram]

Amusing.

Men Are Just Happier People ...


What do you expect from such simple creatures? Your last name stays put. The garage is all yours. Wedding plans take care of themselves. Chocolate is just another snack.      You can be President. You can never get pregnant. You can wear a white T-shirt to a water park. Hell, you can wear NO shirt to a water park.
 
Car mechanics tell you the truth. The world is your urinal. You never have to drive to another gas station restroom because this one is just too icky. You don't have to stop and think of which way to turn a nut on a bolt. Same work, more pay. Wrinkles add character. Wedding dress: $5000.00. Tux rental: $100.00.  People never stare at your chest when you're talking to them. The occasional well-rendered belch is not only appreciated by your friends, but practically expected. New shoes don't cut, blister, or mangle your feet. One mood all the time. Phone conversations are over in 30 seconds flat. You know stuff about tanks.

A five-day vacation requires only one suitcase. You can open all your own jars. You get extra credit for the slightest act of thoughtfulness. If someone forgets to invite you, he or she can still be your friend. Your underwear is $8.95 for a three-pack. Three pairs of shoes are more than enough. You almost never have strap problems in public. You are unable to see wrinkles in your clothes.

Everything on your face stays its original color. The same hairstyle lasts for years, maybe decades. You only have to shave your face and neck.  You can play with toys all your life. Your belly usually hides your hips. One wallet and one pair of shoes one color for all seasons. You can wear shorts no matter how your legs look. You can "do" your nails with a pocket knife. You have freedom of choice concerning growing a mustache. You can do Christmas shopping for 25 relatives on December 24th in 25 minutes.

No wonder men are happier. Send this to the women who can handle it and to the men who will enjoy reading it.

[klaasend]

fyi Klaas, we just perfected chocolate fondant, I got to send you one of these chocolate bunnies now  

I need to get on the treadmill, I think just inhaling this stuff is fattening

LOL    Testing a few too many huh?