Lively Case Discussion #519 8/31 - 9/4/2006

[dkpen]

I am off for awhile. I have some things needed to do here. Will check back in later on tonight.

God bless~

[SunFreak2]

Does anyone have the address or the town where the van Rijn house is?
(Not the wild color painted one - the nice mansion one)

Savaneta - North of Baby Beach and the Refinery

Isn't Savaneta where the blue painted house is?  I though the big white or pink one was located just outside of Arikok.  Someone once posted the address of the house in a for sale ad.  Also the van Cromviert house.

[klaasend]

Does anyone have the address or the town where the van Rijn house is?
(Not the wild color painted one - the nice mansion one)

Savaneta - North of Baby Beach and the Refinery

Isn't Savaneta where the blue painted house is?  I though the big white or pink one was located just outside of Arikok.  Someone once posted the address of the house in a for sale ad.  Also the van Cromviert house.

Saveneta is where the big Lorenzo house is.  I believe it's also where his mom's house is.

I don't remember the area of the van Cromviort home

[igsigs]

Does anyone have the address or the town where the van Rijn house is?
(Not the wild color painted one - the nice mansion one)

Savaneta - North of Baby Beach and the Refinery

Do we know where Paulus works? I think we are gonna have a statement coming up where Paulus drops Joran off at a bus stop near Lorenzo's because he is late for work.

[klaasend]

Does anyone have the address or the town where the van Rijn house is?
(Not the wild color painted one - the nice mansion one)

Savaneta - North of Baby Beach and the Refinery

Do we know where Paulus works? I think we are gonna have a statement coming up where Paulus drops Joran off at a bus stop near Lorenzo's because he is late for work.

We know where Paulus works now, for Joran's attorney's office.  Not sure if he was actually working at the time Natalee disappeared.  I think it was right after he flunked his judgeship exams.

[terryd270]

The nine-year study published in The American Journal of Medicine involving nearly 2,000 people, led by Professor Qi Dai of Tennessee's Vanderbilt University, showed that the risk of developing Alzheimer's -- a degenerative brain disease that affects a person's memory, thinking and mood -- was cut by 76 percent among those who drank fruit or vegetable juice more than three times a week.

I'm not too sure about that.. I drink a lot of fruit juices and I can't remember a lot of stuff.. Now what did I want to say????

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060831/hl_afp/ushealthalzheimers_060831174226

[Kat_Gram]

Are there more statements ?
Any hints ?

[Kat_Gram]

I was just watching Larry King Live about another freak show in Colorado City... no wonder they sort of all look alike in that place.. they are mostly descended from two families and they are all breeding out of the same gene pool.

[klaasend]

Are there more statements ?
Any hints ?

Yes, in the process of being translated

[Buckeye]

Remember early comments...maybe Sleuth about the southern lighthouse.  Joran did say at no time did Natalee say she wanted to go north...maybe it's the other lighthouse??

[Kat_Gram]

Remember early comments...maybe Sleuth about the southern lighthouse.  Joran did say at no time did Natalee say she wanted to go north...maybe it's the other lighthouse??

The car was seen heading north. And then there is the mention of Arashi Beach. And the Gotenbos house and BOAT is up that way. ( North ) but, anything is possible in that place where it seems everyone has a different story.
Another thing is where was the Gottenbos' boat that night ? Sun, Mon.
Was it at a marina ( Marriott Marina ) or was it at their house ?
Did Joran want to go boating ? With who ? Sander is 15, Koen 18.
Exactly where was the Mr. Gottenbos and the Mumma?
If it was at the house, there is no dock near the house, someone would have to drive the boat to the water.
If the boat was at the marina, then either one of the Gottenbos' could have taken it without having to have access to a vehicle.

[Buckeye]

Remember early comments...maybe Sleuth about the southern lighthouse.  Joran did say at no time did Natalee say she wanted to go north...maybe it's the other lighthouse??

The car was seen heading north. And then there is the mention of Arashi Beach. And the Gotenbos house and BOAT is up that way. ( North ) but, anything is possible in that place where it seems everyone has a different story.
Another thing is where was the Gottenbos' boat that night ? Sun, Mon.
Was it at a marina ( Marriott Marina ) or was it at their house ?
Did Joran want to go boating ? With who ? Sander is 15, Koen 18.
Exactly where was the Mr. Gottenbos and the Mumma?
If it was at the house, there is no dock near the house, someone would have to drive the boat to the water.
If the boat was at the marina, then either one of the Gottenbos' could have taken it without having to have access to a vehicle.

I know, everything seems North, but the next day, the school, lorenzos and the early am call are south...maybe final disposal??

[Hotshot]

Does anyone have the address or the town where the van Rijn house is?
(Not the wild color painted one - the nice mansion one)

Astrid lives at 123K Savaneta

His Huge house is at 172 Savaneta

[Kat_Gram]

Depends ( to me at the moment ) where the boat was. We saw a picture of it at the Gottebos house, but they didn't keep it there all the time did they ? Were the Koen and Sander allowed to just take the boat out ?
Or would they just take the boat out if it was at the marina ?
.  
Klassend says more statements.

[Shizaru]

The released statements and documents have only strengthened my belief that this was a simple crime, a date rape gone wrong, and that Natalee and Joran were dropped off on the beach.  I have a fairly clear picture of what happened leading up to that.  Joran went to CnCs looking for Ruth, I don't think he or 2K had any plans to rape anyone when they arrived.  I don't think Natalee was drugged, spiking a drink as strong as 151 with GHB is overkill and the combination would have rendered her completely unconscious by the time they arrived at the beach, which I don't think she was.  Maybe before Joran arrived someone slipped her some X because they liked watching her dance, but X isn't consistent with her faling asleep in the car.  However I do not think Natalee understood what effect a shot of 151 would have on someone her size.  I think she got in the car because she was intoxicated, somewhat naive about boys, and wanted her last night on the island to be romantic, altho I don't believe she intended to go any further than making out.  Also, some of her actions that nite (persistantly flirting with Joran at CnCs after ignoring him at the casino, yelling out the window to her classmates) make me wonder if there was something else going on, like trying to make someone jealous, or some other sort of teenage gameplaying.  Once they were in the car somehow they ended up going for a drive to the lighthouse. Natalee never asked to see Joran's house and they never went there.  After making the quick loop by the lighthouse they headed back towards her hotel, and Joran told Deepak to let them out near the Marriott.   Natalee was fine with this, she liked the idea of a romantic walk on the beach back to her hotel and some kissing under the stars.  Meanwhile Joran was mistakenly assuming, based Natalee's flirting with him in CnCs and leaving with him, that she wanted to have sex with him and would agree to a quickie on the beach, after which he could just walk or take a taxi home.

2K drove off, Joran and Natalee walked to the beach.  At this point my picture of what happened becomes more murky, altho basically it involves Natalee refusing Joran sex and Joran getting angry at having been, in his mind, led on.  I do not think she died of an OD, doesn't fit the timeline.  They were dropped off around 1:50, I think she was dead by 2:26 when Joran called Deepak, and according to Baden even after OD victims pass out it usually takes at least another hour or two for them to die.  Then there's the fact that according to Deepak it was Joran's idea to say she fell down getting out at the hotel.  Joran is sufficiently larger and stronger than Natalee that he could easily have overpowered and and raped her without seriously injuring her.  So this was most likely a rage killing, she slapped him and he struck her or something like that.  The very first version Joran told anyone was what he told Deepak at 2:26- that he and Natalee had gone into the ocean and when they came out she passed out.  So I suspect that either before or after Natalee died, he was with her in the water for some reason.

At 2:26 Joran left the beach on foot without his shoes, arriving home at about 3:15.  After that the picture becomes very murky, there are a number of different plausable scenarios as to how Natalee was disappeared and when.  If Joran alone disappeared her, he might have done so before walking home from the beach, maybe by carrying her to a dumpster or somehow getting her out into the current without a boat.  If her body was still on the beach when he got home then his 3:30-4:30 net surfing is little odd.   However Val was using the computer at 3:07, so maybe if Val was still awake when Joran got home, he killed time using the computer while he waited for Val to go to sleep. Then he grabbed his duplicate keys and a sheet to wrap her in, hopped in the SUV and headed back to the beach. with a 1 hour 40 minute window until sunrise.  Or he told Paulus some version or what happened and Paulus disappeared her.

There are some things in the statements that make me more suspicous of 2K, such as the car cleaning, and Satish missing school the next day.  However the text messages Joran and Deepak exchanged that nite. and the polis van tape, prove that Natalee did not die while all 3 were present.  And Joran has to be guilty of something too or he would not have lied as much as he has.  So if 2K are involved in her disappearance, that points to a scenario where Joran raped Natalee, left her passed out on the beach, and then 2K came back and killed her without his knowledge.  One problem with that scenario tho is that effects of alcohol and drugs usually peak within 40-60 minutes, and she had her last drink before 1:00.  So if she were going to pass out it would probably have happened before they got to the beach.  Altho could be that all 3 suspects are lying about her condition when they got there.
 
Also could be that Satish did pick Joran up, and Joran and satish used Deepak's car to disappear Natalee.  This could fit with the gardener's story, if the gardener is mistaken about how many people were in the car and which Kalpoe he saw.  However I don't think Satish picked Joran up, and Satish would need a motive to help Joran hide a body and keep silent about it.

[Kat_Gram]

and then 2K came back and killed her without his knowledge. One problem with that scenario tho is that effects of alcohol and
That doesn't seem plausible to me... What would be their motive ?
Also think Joran is the more crazy of all of them.
There was the part in the statement of Joran where he says he knew she wanted to have " fleshly intercourse" with him by the way she looked at him in C & C's.   ??? He is pretty used to just getting his way and not used to people saying NO.

[tidycat]

Shizaru, I tend to agree with your version of events.  Is it possible that they dropped Satish off before going to the lighthouse with Natalee?  Then Joran and Deepak could have both raped her and one of them hit her hard enough to accidentally kill her?  Satish really seems to be out of it to me.

If Joran and Deepak even accidentally killed her, or she fell and hit her head, etc., they either could have taken her body somewhere to be hidden and disposed of the next day, or called Paulus.  It just seems to me that guys in that situation would try to do something themselves rather than call a parent to help.

[justinsmama]

I firmly believe that Natalee was drugged, abducted and sexually assaulted. She was alive at 3 am, Birmingham time (2 am Aruban time?). Joran, Deepak and a third male were seen at the Raquet Club at 2:30 am.

[Kat_Gram]

We were at the beach about ten days ago and some young guys has a Sea Pro, they were right up at the shore picking some other kids up to go tubing. To bring a boat in right up to the shore is not a big deal.

[tidycat]

I don't think any of them planned to do anything more than drug and rape a tourist on her last night on the island.  None of them would have intentionally caused her death.  It could be the result of rage and hitting her too hard or some kind of accident, but due to rape and any marks on her they had to  make sure the police never found her.