Kyron Horman, 7 years old PORTLAND, OR #34 10/17/10 - 11/11/10

[no rose colored glasses]

I don't care if these texts or whatever gets released, I still find it not right, and I still find it that this is not helping find Kyron. As several cases in the last couple of years, the victim gets lost in all the sideshows, and I can name three right away. And it is offensive to me  IMO  And if other don't find it offensive that is fine with me also.

The texts would have been released eventually, but Kaine needs them now in order to keep Terri away from Kiara. He feels that Terri was somehow involved with the disappearance of Kyron, so I can understand why he will do everything possible to protect Kiara.

What I'm trying to say is that I'm really sick of the sideshows, such as crazy grandparents, drug dealers, drug addicts, over sexed human beings and so on. I'm really thinking that there is no such thing as a somewhat normal family. And because of all this stuff that gets in the way, the victim gets lost time and time again.

I understand what you mean about the sideshows, but we will always have them because they "sell newspapers" and many in the public are overly interested.

This is one time I don't mind so much because there is a necessary purpose with the safety and well-being of Kiara. I will not read the texts, but thanks to our other posters, I have a very good general idea of what is involved. The texts certainly give an insight to Terri after the disappearance of Kyron and the loss of custody of Kiara. She is definitely more interested in getting laid than the welfare of the children.

I won't argue about the texts giving insight, but I just think it should all be hammered out behind closed doors with the lawyers and Terri and Kaine. Kids are mean and especially in high school, and I would not want to even think about the harassment that James may be getting from other kids and talking trash big time on his mother.

[nicubird]

Bearlythere...this is for you (and me).  I think we both saw a little bit of delays in Kyron that most people wouldn't.  These may be why TH was so into Ky's daily reports and trying so hard to push him even though (MOO) he may have lagged behind a bit.  Her teaching subjects were more directed to his needs also.  Sad to think that maybe she did try real hard to help him at one time and maybe did a really good job.  It was said he wasn't in special classes and he may never have needed them but TH prolly put a lot of time in.  If she wanted a job teaching and volunteering and had been going to school to be a teacher then IMO her kids had to by all appearances exceed at school work.  Seems he was on O2 at birth and could be the cause  of his poor little eyesight.

riverpearl says:
October 27, 2010 at 1:14 am
@beejay says:
October 26, 2010 at 5:53 pm
Did anyone ever see a further explanation of why Ky was born prematurely and why DY was in premature labor? All I’ve found was where DY said:

“after being in premature labor for one and a half months the doctor finally gave us the okay when he was 3 weeks early. After 13 hours of labor he was born into this world and the very first thing he did was shoot a stream of pee at the nurse that delivered him and got it right in the oxygen mask.”

http://www.facebook.com/notes/missing-kyron-horman/kyrons-birth/145783998792366

================

Kyron was born after 36 weeks gestation; therefore, supplemental oxygen would have no detrimental effect on his eyes. Retinopathy of prematurity (the problem associated with increased levels of oxygen in the blood and developing eyes) is typically only a threat prior to 31 weeks gestation and is a non-issue at 37 weeks. I think what is being perceived as developmental delays could possibly be be a delay in fine motor coordination related to his poor vision. I do not believe there was any impairment in cognition.

 
"Retinopathy of prematurity (ROP) is a potentially blinding eye disorder that primarily affects premature infants weighing about 2¾ pounds (1250 grams) or less that are born before 31 weeks of gestation."

http://www.nei.nih.gov/health/rop/

[Itaryl Moosee]

OOOh OOOh.

Moderatore, please either delete or move post to Zahra's.

>>>> COVERING HEAD WITH A PAPER SACK <<<<<<<

 

Moved

[Gypsy DD]

I don't care if these texts or whatever gets released, I still find it not right, and I still find it that this is not helping find Kyron. As several cases in the last couple of years, the victim gets lost in all the sideshows, and I can name three right away. And it is offensive to me  IMO  And if other don't find it offensive that is fine with me also.

The texts would have been released eventually, but Kaine needs them now in order to keep Terri away from Kiara. He feels that Terri was somehow involved with the disappearance of Kyron, so I can understand why he will do everything possible to protect Kiara.

What I'm trying to say is that I'm really sick of the sideshows, such as crazy grandparents, drug dealers, drug addicts, over sexed human beings and so on. I'm really thinking that there is no such thing as a somewhat normal family. And because of all this stuff that gets in the way, the victim gets lost time and time again.

NRCG.....I understand your fraustration ..but just maybe one person in Terri's group will come forward with one clue that helps solve this case.  I sure would not want to be associated with her after reading the response...and it could be Terri had many people fooled.

[Northern Rose]

When I first arrived, I told everyone that I was here to answer questions and offer information ,if anyone wanted it, about DeDe, with the purpose of helping rule her out as a suspect.  I presumed that ruling anyone out as a suspect was a good thing, and I got the idea that you all agreed with that, given that you defended LE to high heaven for investigating for just that purpose.  That's the only contribution I ever thought I could make to helping find Kyron, and I said that a number of times. I have tried to answer every question I was asked.  Sorry if I missed some.

Apparently, given my limited area of expertise, I am not entitled to have an opinion of my own.  It's not what I expected in a discussion forum, I have to say.

Good Evening Monkeys and Guest!

I was way behind and had to read and get caught up. Klaas forgive me...but i have sat on my hands for a while now......So if this is to be my last post i am going to get my moneys worth.

Fly Monkey, i don't recall any of us begging  you here to take up for DEDE. I think i made my thoughts on the subject clear weeks ago. I DO NOT GIVE A D@MN ABOUT DEDE. I want to know where Kyron is. You coming here and trying to change our minds about Dede has not helped to find  KYRON.

You fly in here for 5 minutes and put us down and take up for two evil biotches who in all likely hood murdered and disposed of a seven yr old child. I don't care how low Terri's or Dede's self esteem gets. So don't come in here and tell me how to react to the text messages. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows what Terri has done and Dede was right there with her. So give it a d@mn rest. As far as I am concerned you can shove Dede up your arse. I am glad Kaine released the text....as least some folks don't have blinders on and can see what an evil biotch they both are.

 

[Itaryl Moosee]

When I first arrived, I told everyone that I was here to answer questions and offer information ,if anyone wanted it, about DeDe, with the purpose of helping rule her out as a suspect.  I presumed that ruling anyone out as a suspect was a good thing, and I got the idea that you all agreed with that, given that you defended LE to high heaven for investigating for just that purpose.  That's the only contribution I ever thought I could make to helping find Kyron, and I said that a number of times. I have tried to answer every question I was asked.  Sorry if I missed some.

Apparently, given my limited area of expertise, I am not entitled to have an opinion of my own.  It's not what I expected in a discussion forum, I have to say.

Good Evening Monkeys and Guest!

I was way behind and had to read and get caught up. Klaas forgive me...but i have sat on my hands for a while now......So if this is to be my last post i am going to get my moneys worth.

Fly Monkey, i don't recall any of us begging  you here to take up for DEDE. I think i made my thoughts on the subject clear weeks ago. I DO NOT GIVE A D@MN ABOUT DEDE. I want to know where Kyron is. You coming here and trying to change our minds about Dede has not helped to find  KYRON.

You fly in here for 5 minutes and put us down and take up for two evil biotches who in all likely hood murdered and disposed of a seven yr old child. I don't care how low Terri's or Dede's self esteem gets. So don't come in here and tell me how to react to the text messages. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows what Terri has done and Dede was right there with her. So give it a d@mn rest. As far as I am concerned you can shove Dede up your arse. I am glad Kaine released the text....as least some folks don't have blinders on and can see what an evil biotch they both are.

 

 

I'm still waiting for the information and insight FlyMonkey promised... or as Nancy Grace would put it, the "bombshell"...

[Tolerance]

When I first arrived, I told everyone that I was here to answer questions and offer information ,if anyone wanted it, about DeDe, with the purpose of helping rule her out as a suspect.  I presumed that ruling anyone out as a suspect was a good thing, and I got the idea that you all agreed with that, given that you defended LE to high heaven for investigating for just that purpose.  That's the only contribution I ever thought I could make to helping find Kyron, and I said that a number of times. I have tried to answer every question I was asked.  Sorry if I missed some.

Apparently, given my limited area of expertise, I am not entitled to have an opinion of my own.  It's not what I expected in a discussion forum, I have to say.

Good Evening Monkeys and Guest!

I was way behind and had to read and get caught up. Klaas forgive me...but i have sat on my hands for a while now......So if this is to be my last post i am going to get my moneys worth.

Fly Monkey, i don't recall any of us begging  you here to take up for DEDE. I think i made my thoughts on the subject clear weeks ago. I DO NOT GIVE A D@MN ABOUT DEDE. I want to know where Kyron is. You coming here and trying to change our minds about Dede has not helped to find  KYRON.

You fly in here for 5 minutes and put us down and take up for two evil biotches who in all likely hood murdered and disposed of a seven yr old child. I don't care how low Terri's or Dede's self esteem gets. So don't come in here and tell me how to react to the text messages. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows what Terri has done and Dede was right there with her. So give it a d@mn rest. As far as I am concerned you can shove Dede up your arse. I am glad Kaine released the text....as least some folks don't have blinders on and can see what an evil biotch they both are.

 

I tried to be 'done' with this.  I really did.  I know I should drop it.  This whole charade needs no more attention or band width.
Acknowledging this...................and that I am short on self control right now.............

FM,
I think you have a bloated opinion of your postion (and ours) relative to Kyron's disappearance.  You say you are here 'for the purpose of helping to rule out DeDe as a suspect"
You are sadly mistaken if you think that is our place.  It is not. 
LE will rule her in or out.  Not some 'friend' of hers, not a message board.
You have clearly stated your agenda.  That makes it hard for me to seriously consider your opinions. 
Of course you have a right to an opinion. 
BUT
when you make it clear that you express opinions to 'help rule DeDe out as a suspect' that negates their value for me.

Tol

[Tracygirl]

I don't care if these texts or whatever gets released, I still find it not right, and I still find it that this is not helping find Kyron. As several cases in the last couple of years, the victim gets lost in all the sideshows, and I can name three right away. And it is offensive to me  IMO  And if other don't find it offensive that is fine with me also.

I agree with you NRCG, sometimes I feel as though I am watching a bad episode of divorce court. I keep asking myself, why should I know this? what good does it do for me and the world to know Terri sexted with a man? Why do I need to come off of the proverbial fence? Why does the public need to prosecute Terri? I feel as though there is a bit of manipulation going on and I am trying to stay non reactive.
The sexting was very graphic and completely inappropriate for the time, but it is also not illegal to do. The texts were between two adults and as crazy as they were, it happens everyday. Does it happen when a child goes missing? Not normally I am sure, I agree with that. But again, they were inappropriate but not illegal and sexting does not indicate murdering a child.

What I worry about is if she was doing this with someone she wanted to "please" need to "please" actually and he asked for her step son. That is what worries me and how I can see this all tying together.

I do have a question for those with better memories then myself. But didn't Kaine at one time say he was not aware Terri was drinking? In this document he is saying he found her drunk on the couch with Kiara playing on the floor. 

[Itaryl Moosee]

From the Petitioner's Response:

6. Respondent has historical problems with the abuse of alcohol, which have impaired  her functioning since Kiara's birth. Respondent was convicted for driving while under the influence of alcohol and child endangerment in 2005. Her son ##### was in the car with her when she was arrested. That was not an isolated incident of alcohol abuse. It was common for Respondent to be visibly impaired from alcohol, i.e. slurring speech, staggering gait, etc... several nights a week. Often, Respondent would pass out on the couch around 7:00 or 8:00 p.m. after drinking heavily and would wake up on and off for the rest of the night. Sometimes Kiara would be up with Respondent rather than on a schedule. Respondent spent most nights sleeping on the living room couch with Kiara. Respondent would typically be passed out from heavily drinking. Kiara would be up past midnight playing and/or watching tv until I tried to intervene. Sometimes if I tried to help by putting Kiara to bed, Respondent would become verbally combative and seem offended.

7. Respondent's alcoholism, coupled with depression issues, significantly affected the manner in which she cared for Kiara and greatly affected Kiara's attachment to her. Respondent did not maintain consistent routines for Kiara in her daily activities or sleep patterns. It was common to find Kiara up and awake at 1:00 a.m. while Respondent was asleep from alcohol. As a result, Kiara was never well rested, she was fussy and upset frequently during each day, and her mood was abnormal for her age.

The statements about Terri having chronic alcohol problems are kinda surprising to me, I had thought that it was a once or twice thing.

If things were that bad, why didn't Kaine divorce her before?

In the beginning (the first week maybe) many people were vouching for Terri, of what a good mother she was, what a great caring person she had been... so, was everyone fibbing then?

[Grey]

From the Petitioner's Response:

6. Respondent has historical problems with the abuse of alcohol, which have impaired  her functioning since Kiara's birth. Respondent was convicted for driving while under the influence of alcohol and child endangerment in 2005. Her son ##### was in the car with her when she was arrested. That was not an isolated incident of alcohol abuse. It was common for Respondent to be visibly impaired from alcohol, i.e. slurring speech, staggering gait, etc... several nights a week. Often, Respondent would pass out on the couch around 7:00 or 8:00 p.m. after drinking heavily and would wake up on and off for the rest of the night. Sometimes Kiara would be up with Respondent rather than on a schedule. Respondent spent most nights sleeping on the living room couch with Kiara. Respondent would typically be passed out from heavily drinking. Kiara would be up past midnight playing and/or watching tv until I tried to intervene. Sometimes if I tried to help by putting Kiara to bed, Respondent would become verbally combative and seem offended.

7. Respondent's alcoholism, coupled with depression issues, significantly affected the manner in which she cared for Kiara and greatly affected Kiara's attachment to her. Respondent did not maintain consistent routines for Kiara in her daily activities or sleep patterns. It was common to find Kiara up and awake at 1:00 a.m. while Respondent was asleep from alcohol. As a result, Kiara was never well rested, she was fussy and upset frequently during each day, and her mood was abnormal for her age.

The statements about Terri having chronic alcohol problems are kinda surprising to me, I had thought that it was a once or twice thing.

If things were that bad, why didn't Kaine divorce her before?

In the beginning (the first week maybe) many people were vouching for Terri, of what a good mother she was, what a great caring person she had been... so, was everyone fibbing then?

When people began comparing notes on and stories from Terri, a truer picture of Terri began to emerge. She was not consistent among groups of friends with her stories. Kaine even commented early on that he was learning things about Terri of which he was not aware. I don't think people were fibbing at first, but they were talking about the Terri that she tried to portray to each. It finally fell apart.

I suspect Kaine was trying to deal with problems at home while not realizing the full scope of what Terri was up to. He may have been at the point of considering a divorce when Kyron disappeared, but some people try to work things out first.

[Tracygirl]

From the Petitioner's Response:

6. Respondent has historical problems with the abuse of alcohol, which have impaired  her functioning since Kiara's birth. Respondent was convicted for driving while under the influence of alcohol and child endangerment in 2005. Her son ##### was in the car with her when she was arrested. That was not an isolated incident of alcohol abuse. It was common for Respondent to be visibly impaired from alcohol, i.e. slurring speech, staggering gait, etc... several nights a week. Often, Respondent would pass out on the couch around 7:00 or 8:00 p.m. after drinking heavily and would wake up on and off for the rest of the night. Sometimes Kiara would be up with Respondent rather than on a schedule. Respondent spent most nights sleeping on the living room couch with Kiara. Respondent would typically be passed out from heavily drinking. Kiara would be up past midnight playing and/or watching tv until I tried to intervene. Sometimes if I tried to help by putting Kiara to bed, Respondent would become verbally combative and seem offended.

7. Respondent's alcoholism, coupled with depression issues, significantly affected the manner in which she cared for Kiara and greatly affected Kiara's attachment to her. Respondent did not maintain consistent routines for Kiara in her daily activities or sleep patterns. It was common to find Kiara up and awake at 1:00 a.m. while Respondent was asleep from alcohol. As a result, Kiara was never well rested, she was fussy and upset frequently during each day, and her mood was abnormal for her age.

The statements about Terri having chronic alcohol problems are kinda surprising to me, I had thought that it was a once or twice thing.If things were that bad, why didn't Kaine divorce her before?
In the beginning (the first week maybe) many people were vouching for Terri, of what a good mother she was, what a great caring person she had been... so, was everyone fibbing then?

Well they were either hiding the truth then or exagerating now. Can't be both ways. The story has changed dramatically, that is foresure. 

[Tracygirl]

From what the documents say about Terri, she had no business caring for children. I do not believe Desiree knew all of this. I think Desiree would have fought for custody of Kyron and she would have won. I have to wonder if that is why the story was first told that Terri was great with Kyron and everything hunky dory in the horman house hold. Kaine didn't want to talk about the pink elephant in the room, let the cat out of the bad, he was acting codependent in my opinion....
I bet Desiree is livid in learning about all of this.  She believed her son was being taken care of in his home. If this is what the home was like, he was not being cared for in my opinion and neither was Kaira. There were 2 adults in that household, one was drunk and the other being co dependent. Now Kyron is missing and thank God, if the documents are true, Kaine is coming out of his codependent mind set and telling the truth and not protecting the image.   
Where is Kyron? I pray we find that out very soon.

[no rose colored glasses]

From what the documents say about Terri, she had no business caring for children. I do not believe Desiree knew all of this. I think Desiree would have fought for custody of Kyron and she would have won. I have to wonder if that is why the story was first told that Terri was great with Kyron and everything hunky dory in the horman house hold. Kaine didn't want to talk about the pink elephant in the room, let the cat out of the bad, he was acting codependent in my opinion....
I bet Desiree is livid in learning about all of this.  She believed her son was being taken care of in his home. If this is what the home was like, he was not being cared for in my opinion and neither was Kaira. There were 2 adults in that household, one was drunk and the other being co dependent. Now Kyron is missing and thank God, if the documents are true, Kaine is coming out of his codependent mind set and telling the truth and not protecting the image.   
Where is Kyron? I pray we find that out very soon.

I can't argue with one thing you said. Besides finding Kyron I pray that James is not bullied by kids at school with what all came out in those texts. It is bad enough to be 16 and have this happen but then put this on top. I would have no idea about his mental state, but I know that I would not have been able to deal with all that at 16 and probably would not have gone back to school. 

[Tracygirl]

I agree NRCG, out of respect for the children this should have been sealed. You know the kids at James' school will be talking about this, how could they not? And what about Kiara? She is a baby now but she will be grown soon enough. What will people tell her about her mom? Can you imagine what her reaction will be when she learns of all of this? there are certainly more losers then winners in all of this.

[sassifrass]

I agree NRCG, out of respect for the children this should have been sealed. You know the kids at James' school will be talking about this, how could they not? And what about Kiara? She is a baby now but she will be grown soon enough. What will people tell her about her mom? Can you imagine what her reaction will be when she learns of all of this? there are certainly more losers then winners in all of this.

IMO, I think it would be best for him to be home schooled at this time, or maybe they already are doing that. I would hope so, because as you all know, teenagers can be pretty darn cruel.

[no rose colored glasses]

I agree NRCG, out of respect for the children this should have been sealed. You know the kids at James' school will be talking about this, how could they not? And what about Kiara? She is a baby now but she will be grown soon enough. What will people tell her about her mom? Can you imagine what her reaction will be when she learns of all of this? there are certainly more losers then winners in all of this.

You are so right 

[Tracygirl]

Doesn't the fact Terri is being said to have a drinking problem, doesn't that put a different light on everything? Those texts now after thinking about it, do they sound off because perhaps she was drunk at the time? To me that explains how she could have participated in the sexting, maybe she was drunk. Her possibly being an alcoholic explains many things in my mind. I should have figured it out when Kaine's story kept changing, even in the beginning and his being defensive and aloof. I always felt Kaine was trying to perserve some image, I thought it was his image but was he simply being codendent and still protecting the truth about his family? BTW, at one time I was very codendent, I know the signs as I lived it as a child and as an adult. 

So if she had a drinking problem, was she drinking that morning or did she have a massive hangover that left her feeling irritated and angry? Did she leave with Kyron thinking the doctors appointment was that day and something happened to him or she lost her temper?

[Gypsy DD]

From what the documents say about Terri, she had no business caring for children. I do not believe Desiree knew all of this. I think Desiree would have fought for custody of Kyron and she would have won. I have to wonder if that is why the story was first told that Terri was great with Kyron and everything hunky dory in the horman house hold. Kaine didn't want to talk about the pink elephant in the room, let the cat out of the bad, he was acting codependent in my opinion....
I bet Desiree is livid in learning about all of this.  She believed her son was being taken care of in his home. If this is what the home was like, he was not being cared for in my opinion and neither was Kaira. There were 2 adults in that household, one was drunk and the other being co dependent. Now Kyron is missing and thank God, if the documents are true, Kaine is coming out of his codependent mind set and telling the truth and not protecting the image.   
Where is Kyron? I pray we find that out very soon.

I can't argue with one thing you said. Besides finding Kyron I pray that James is not bullied by kids at school with what all came out in those texts. It is bad enough to be 16 and have this happen but then put this on top. I would have no idea about his mental state, but I know that I would not have been able to deal with all that at 16 and probably would not have gone back to school. 

I have a feeling that James is not at his mother's very often..say once a month for a couple hours.   He has everything he wants and needs at his Dad's house and that is where I believe he spends most of his time.

I cannot think of one thing Terri has to offer him as a parent other then regret.  I think the horses and his Dad's family offer healing and hope for him....hopefully these other teens that he hangs with can see that his life has been tough enough without their bullying.

Prayers for James as he tries to live his life within this horrible tragedy.

[Tracygirl]

From what the documents say about Terri, she had no business caring for children. I do not believe Desiree knew all of this. I think Desiree would have fought for custody of Kyron and she would have won. I have to wonder if that is why the story was first told that Terri was great with Kyron and everything hunky dory in the horman house hold. Kaine didn't want to talk about the pink elephant in the room, let the cat out of the bad, he was acting codependent in my opinion....
I bet Desiree is livid in learning about all of this.  She believed her son was being taken care of in his home. If this is what the home was like, he was not being cared for in my opinion and neither was Kaira. There were 2 adults in that household, one was drunk and the other being co dependent. Now Kyron is missing and thank God, if the documents are true, Kaine is coming out of his codependent mind set and telling the truth and not protecting the image.   
Where is Kyron? I pray we find that out very soon.

I can't argue with one thing you said. Besides finding Kyron I pray that James is not bullied by kids at school with what all came out in those texts. It is bad enough to be 16 and have this happen but then put this on top. I would have no idea about his mental state, but I know that I would not have been able to deal with all that at 16 and probably would not have gone back to school. 

I have a feeling that James is not at his mother's very often..say once a month for a couple hours.   He has everything he wants and needs at his Dad's house and that is where I believe he spends most of his time.

I cannot think of one thing Terri has to offer him as a parent other then regret.  I think the horses and his Dad's family offer healing and hope for him....hopefully these other teens that he hangs with can see that his life has been tough enough without their bullying.

Prayers for James as he tries to live his life within this horrible tragedy.

Wasn't it said somewhere he was with his mom again? What a mess this poor young man has to deal with. Hopefully he is getting help in order to cope with everything being thrown at him.

[Gypsy DD]

Doesn't the fact Terri is being said to have a drinking problem, doesn't that put a different light on everything? Those texts now after thinking about it, do they sound off because perhaps she was drunk at the time? To me that explains how she could have participated in the sexting, maybe she was drunk. Her possibly being an alcoholic explains many things in my mind. I should have figured it out when Kaine's story kept changing, even in the beginning and his being defensive and aloof. I always felt Kaine was trying to perserve some image, I thought it was his image but was he simply being codendent and still protecting the truth about his family? BTW, at one time I was very codendent, I know the signs as I lived it as a child and as an adult. 

So if she had a drinking problem, was she drinking that morning or did she have a massive hangover that left her feeling irritated and angry? Did she leave with Kyron thinking the doctors appointment was that day and something happened to him or she lost her temper?

With all due respect TG..I think Kaine has addressed why his story changed alittle..not too much..he has said in interviews as time went on people..friends and family came to him with info nd stories about Terri he had not heard before.

Also he was doing the best he could to address these problems she was having..he got her counseling, he sent her to a doctor to get help, he went to family counseling with her..all to no avail.  He also worked from home 3 to 5 afternoons a week to take care of the children.

He also was probably not privy to any info from her doctor or her counselor....which is why he sounded so unsure at the beginning of what drugs she was taking and what her actual diagnosis was.  Due to HEPA laws if Terri said I do not want my husband nor any relative to have any of my health info..the docs must comply.

I do think that Desiree knew everything that Kaine knew prior to June 4th..thus her reasoning that Terri was involved.  I just don't think either of them had an inkling this was just the tip of the iceburg.  Lying and drinking are one thing, sexting with men when you are married, MFH, drug use, etc..etc are quite another.

Hoping someone who knows something will phone in that tip to end this Terri Tale charade.