Lively Case Discussion #669 7/30 - 7/31/2007

[Leslie]

Sharon
We are talking Shango, not Simian right?
 Because I am still 99% sure I know who Simian was, and I found a passage today in going back to read, that just firms it up for me......

WHO?

[2NJSons_Mom]

Sharon

I was away last week and missed that.  I'll try and go back to find the post you talk about. 

We are talking Shango, not Simian right?
 Because I am still 99% sure I know who Simian was, and I found a passage today in going back to read, that just firms it up for me......

MsDV -- the connection Nut found, if accurate, is definitely a 'Shango' connection.

A 'noted' Santeria expert. In the area that Shango posted from (Ft Lauderdale).

If you can't find it -- let me know and I'll help you. I've been away as well and have lots to catch up on b4 I can catch up here

Search Nuts posts -- use 'Shango' as a search word.

Hello to my 'Miami Connection' 

Found Nut44X4's post:

 Lively Case Discussion #661 7/20 - 7/21/2007
« Reply #746 on: July 21, 2007, 12:40:59 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: "Nut44x4"
Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
Quote from: "Buckeye"
Lala's

Had read some of the old Shango.  Did we ever consider Mary Rolled to be moved in a car and perhaps the buoy part to be moved into a boat??


I think I have considered just about every option possible.  I have always assumed that part of Shango referred to Natalee being at a rave party...which would also fit along the lines of her being given drugs or let's say enticed to take drugs and the drugs killed her.  Still doesn't get the 3 perps off the hook, just tells me that someone was instrumental in seeing that she took the drugs.


http://www.hmsf.org/exhibitions-past-crossroads.htm
Past Exhibitions   
At the Crossroads: Afro-Cuban Orisha Arts in MiamiFebruary 23, 2001 to July 8, 2001

At The Crossroads, the first large scale exhibition of its kind, explores the unique art forms and creative processes of the Orisha religion.

This exhibition highlights the work of more than 20 of Miami’s leading Orisha artists and includes altars, ceremonial garments, beadwork, metalwork, woodcarving, herbalism, music, dance and storytelling.

The goal of the exhibition is to provide a forum for the Orisha community of over 100,000 practitioners in Miami to present and interpret its arts to the general public.

There are three guest curators for the exhibition. Ezequiel Torres is a priest of Obatalá and a master craftsman of Afro-Cuban musical instruments including drums. Nelson Mendoza is an active researcher and collector of Orisha artworks. Miguel “Willie” Ramos is well respected nationwide as a priest of Shangó and an Orisha scholar.

According to Ramos, the name “At the Crossroads” is appropriate to the exhibition because “ Miami is the point of encounter between the exiled Cuban community and other immigrant groups in the United States.”

Because Miami is also the center of Orisha worship in the United States, it is integral in spreading the word about the religion. The name “At the Crossroads” also signals the importance of Elegba, the orisha of the crossroads and divine messenger of the gods.

I have posted the following links before, but reviewing them from time to time for Shango' followers is sometimes interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shango#Worship_of_Shango

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yor%C3%B9b%C3%A1_mythology

Elders and Members of Ile Osikan
http://members.tripod.com/omo_ileosikan/id11.html
Oba and Babalosha Ilari Oba (Miguel "Willie" Ramos) Oni Shango is mentioned in the above link, as well.

7) Olokun, Ruler of oceans: The fountain of life, also associated with mysterious depths of consciousness. Here I shall make a link with the figure of Neptune from the Celtic pantheon above, again this maybe stretching the symbolism somewhat but there does seem to be some level of correlation. In that case Olokun could be seen as indirectly representing the Queen in our archetypal mandala. Interestingly Shango is almost drowned in the ocean according to one story from the Yoruban tradition, calling to mind the close relationship between the King and Queen in the Universal Mandala. http://www.8foldman.com/part1c.html
AND YES LALA's.....the buoy toll part is obviously transport to the ocean.

more>>>
http://tinyurl.com/2vnvhz (google search list)



I will bump myself up, lol. For those interested in Shango. I was wondering when I found this stuff if Willie' may be Shango, although a true longshot...could be anyone on Earth really.
 
 

[MsVada]

Sharon
We are talking Shango, not Simian right?
 Because I am still 99% sure I know who Simian was, and I found a passage today in going back to read, that just firms it up for me......

WHO?

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 11:49 am
Oh, I’m not being defensive at all. I just think I might help you people with any details you might be getting wrong about my island.


Who does this sound like to you??

[MsVada]

be back later,  gotta get some things done

[Kimmy53]

Good Morning Monkeys![/color]

Working and Lurking........again......

[San]

http://www.osageorange.com/Roughing_out_T.html gives more info on the bois d'arc (bodark) (Maclura pomifera) tree and fruit. The tree's wood was used for fencing, and bows - a long bow at that. The wood is resistant to bugs and fungal rot.

My avatar is all fuzzed out and I don't know how to fix it. BFN Debbie first made it smaller for there, I just pasted it over here. Bah.

Speaking of fuzzy, my recall is about something. 2005, Miller, TES, the cadaver dogs had just gotten to Aruba. The first hit they had was (the hazy part) like at a depression in the sand beneath a picnic table (???) I thought nearer the salinja than the fisherman huts. Close by where the Gardener said he saw the Kalpoe car parked 2:30-3AM, yes? Anyway then it rained or ALE ran them off or something else ended that. Does anyone recall? Or am I not remembering this right?

I still wonder what that was about if the dogs were trained to (notify handler) on only human cadaver scent.

This is what I remember also.  I remember them digging in the sand and placing the sad in this big sifter like thing while a cop was standing there watching.  Tim said there was something there that was moved.

[LilPuma]

Morning, minkeys.  No big announcement?  Is Lorenzo still in jail?  Is Joran back in school?  Do we know anything?   

[San]

Morning, minkeys.  No big announcement?  Is Lorenzo still in jail?  Is Joran back in school?  Do we know anything?   

Good Morning LilPuma.  As far as I know Lorenzo is still in jail.  But then again who knows that could be another lie and he is probably sitting on a beach chair in his back yard rolling up some pot and smoking away

Haven't heard anything about Joran either.

Basically it's been quiet.

[LilPuma]

Good morning. 

Easy, I so hoped you could tell me the answers to those very same questions.

I'm just not seeing or hearing anything new.  Too blasted quiet!

When you consider that Joe Tacopina and the gang told us they were about to close the case because Joran's story checks out and there was no evidence and others say Natalee ran away and is living a happy life free of Beth and others say she died from cocaine, I'm thinking that quiet might be good.  

[KarmaRoundUp]

http://www.osageorange.com/Roughing_out_T.html gives more info on the bois d'arc (bodark) (Maclura pomifera) tree and fruit. The tree's wood was used for fencing, and bows - a long bow at that. The wood is resistant to bugs and fungal rot.

My avatar is all fuzzed out and I don't know how to fix it. BFN Debbie first made it smaller for there, I just pasted it over here. Bah.

Speaking of fuzzy, my recall is about something. 2005, Miller, TES, the cadaver dogs had just gotten to Aruba. The first hit they had was (the hazy part) like at a depression in the sand beneath a picnic table (???) I thought nearer the salinja than the fisherman huts. Close by where the Gardener said he saw the Kalpoe car parked 2:30-3AM, yes? Anyway then it rained or ALE ran them off or something else ended that. Does anyone recall? Or am I not remembering this right?

I still wonder what that was about if the dogs were trained to (notify handler) on only human cadaver scent.

This is what I remember also.  I remember them digging in the sand and placing the sad in this big sifter like thing while a cop was standing there watching.  Tim said there was something there that was moved.

Good morning
I remember this but not the picnic table part.What I remember is Tim from TES saying a unidentified man told them the spot to check,man said there was a hole dug.They showed it on tv....they were sifting the sand from this shallow grave looking hole.I now wonder where was Tim's and TES search going to be that day before this unidentified man told them about this hole cause it seems to me this was just another put on search ment to distract.

[MsVada]

I I now wonder where was Tim's and TES search going to be that day before this unidentified man told them about this hole cause it seems to me this was just another put on search ment to distract.[/color][/b]

Good Point,  Was this a distraction to where they should have been looking?  I can agree with this.....

[LilPuma]

I I now wonder where was Tim's and TES search going to be that day before this unidentified man told them about this hole cause it seems to me this was just another put on search ment to distract.[/color][/b]

Good Point,  Was this a distraction to where they should have been looking?  I can agree with this.....

I remember Tim saying the man told them to be prepared not to destroy evidence. 

[Kimmy53]

I I now wonder where was Tim's and TES search going to be that day before this unidentified man told them about this hole cause it seems to me this was just another put on search ment to distract.[/color][/b]

Good Point,  Was this a distraction to where they should have been looking?  I can agree with this.....

I remember Tim saying the man told them to be prepared not to destroy evidence. 

IIRC, Tim said he felt that Natalee had been there...Don't know if it was just a feeling or indications he got from the way the place looked etc.

[MsVada]

Kimmy

Didn't the dogs get a hit in the shallow grave hole?  It has been so long now, I can barely remember

[Kimmy53]

Kimmy

Didn't the dogs get a hit in the shallow grave hole?  It has been so long now, I can barely remember

I thought so MsV - I thought that was why they called it a shallow grave...Because of the dogs and shape etc.

[Lala'sMom]

Sharon

I was away last week and missed that.  I'll try and go back to find the post you talk about. 

We are talking Shango, not Simian right?
 Because I am still 99% sure I know who Simian was, and I found a passage today in going back to read, that just firms it up for me......

MsDV -- the connection Nut found, if accurate, is definitely a 'Shango' connection.

A 'noted' Santeria expert. In the area that Shango posted from (Ft Lauderdale).

If you can't find it -- let me know and I'll help you. I've been away as well and have lots to catch up on b4 I can catch up here

Search Nuts posts -- use 'Shango' as a search word.

Hello to my 'Miami Connection' 

Found Nut44X4's post:

 Lively Case Discussion #661 7/20 - 7/21/2007
« Reply #746 on: July 21, 2007, 12:40:59 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: "Nut44x4"
Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
Quote from: "Buckeye"
Lala's

Had read some of the old Shango.  Did we ever consider Mary Rolled to be moved in a car and perhaps the buoy part to be moved into a boat??


I think I have considered just about every option possible.  I have always assumed that part of Shango referred to Natalee being at a rave party...which would also fit along the lines of her being given drugs or let's say enticed to take drugs and the drugs killed her.  Still doesn't get the 3 perps off the hook, just tells me that someone was instrumental in seeing that she took the drugs.


http://www.hmsf.org/exhibitions-past-crossroads.htm
Past Exhibitions   
At the Crossroads: Afro-Cuban Orisha Arts in MiamiFebruary 23, 2001 to July 8, 2001

At The Crossroads, the first large scale exhibition of its kind, explores the unique art forms and creative processes of the Orisha religion.

This exhibition highlights the work of more than 20 of Miami’s leading Orisha artists and includes altars, ceremonial garments, beadwork, metalwork, woodcarving, herbalism, music, dance and storytelling.

The goal of the exhibition is to provide a forum for the Orisha community of over 100,000 practitioners in Miami to present and interpret its arts to the general public.

There are three guest curators for the exhibition. Ezequiel Torres is a priest of Obatalá and a master craftsman of Afro-Cuban musical instruments including drums. Nelson Mendoza is an active researcher and collector of Orisha artworks. Miguel “Willie” Ramos is well respected nationwide as a priest of Shangó and an Orisha scholar.

According to Ramos, the name “At the Crossroads” is appropriate to the exhibition because “ Miami is the point of encounter between the exiled Cuban community and other immigrant groups in the United States.”

Because Miami is also the center of Orisha worship in the United States, it is integral in spreading the word about the religion. The name “At the Crossroads” also signals the importance of Elegba, the orisha of the crossroads and divine messenger of the gods.

I have posted the following links before, but reviewing them from time to time for Shango' followers is sometimes interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shango#Worship_of_Shango

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yor%C3%B9b%C3%A1_mythology

Elders and Members of Ile Osikan
http://members.tripod.com/omo_ileosikan/id11.html
Oba and Babalosha Ilari Oba (Miguel "Willie" Ramos) Oni Shango is mentioned in the above link, as well.

7) Olokun, Ruler of oceans: The fountain of life, also associated with mysterious depths of consciousness. Here I shall make a link with the figure of Neptune from the Celtic pantheon above, again this maybe stretching the symbolism somewhat but there does seem to be some level of correlation. In that case Olokun could be seen as indirectly representing the Queen in our archetypal mandala. Interestingly Shango is almost drowned in the ocean according to one story from the Yoruban tradition, calling to mind the close relationship between the King and Queen in the Universal Mandala. http://www.8foldman.com/part1c.html
AND YES LALA's.....the buoy toll part is obviously transport to the ocean.

more>>>
http://tinyurl.com/2vnvhz (google search list)



I will bump myself up, lol. For those interested in Shango. I was wondering when I found this stuff if Willie' may be Shango, although a true longshot...could be anyone on Earth really.
 
 

I read Nut's post with excitement when first posted because it is a very good connection to the area that some say Shango posted from.  I had hoped there would be others that thought so as well.  Since Shango elicits such extreme responses on most occasions I let it go.  I should have told Nut that it is a very interesting possibility considering that Rob and Anidac researched so extensively on the origination of the posts.  Since I have never been privy to that info I am unable to say any more on that point.  I would certainly entertain the possibility that someone with some knowledge of the Orisha would have been writing the Shango verses.  It would be a very good way of saying more without giving yourself away.  My questions here would be:
1. Who is this Willie guy and has he any connections to Aruba?
2. If he doesn't have any connections to Aruba, as in actually being on the island at some point, who is his connection that relates this info and he turns it into verse?
3.  Does Willie know Gabe Leo?
4.  Does Willie know AllyinMiami? 
5.  Who on the island of Aruba has the ability to disseminate info to those in Miami?

I could go on, but I won't.  I hope someone who is smarter than I delves into this possiblity.

Morning monkeys, forgive my manners.

[Kimmy53]

I also wonder who this person was that told Tim to search there. 

I have been thinking, and I believe there are/were more witnesses and tips given than we will ever be told.  I think the majority of those tips etc. were swept under the rug or just simply ignored and/or never followed up on.  That is what is sooooo frustrating in this case.  I believe they had ALL they needed and threw it all away.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Regarding TES & the shallow grave...I searched the FP for early stories and did not find the exact one that said a stranger pointed the grave out or suggested they look there, but did find an interview Tim did with Red & Tom back in July, 2005.  Shallow grave, dog hits are touched upon, as well as some specific areas.  Note that Tim, at that time, was looking into a water search off the eastern coast of the island.  Interesting to reread for I surely found things I had not known or perhaps had forgotten.....here's a link to it:

http://tinyurl.com/3b2tur

Lala's, wish I had answers to your questions regarding Nut44X4's research....it is interesting....and Rob's posts of yesterday, relating to the FL connection....does it all tie in, or is it all just coincidence?

[GrannyToad]

[excerpted]

Speaking of fuzzy, my recall is about something. 2005, Miller, TES, the cadaver dogs had just gotten to Aruba. The first hit they had was (the hazy part) like at a depression in the sand beneath a picnic table (???) I thought nearer the salinja than the fisherman huts. Close by where the Gardener said he saw the Kalpoe car parked 2:30-3AM, yes? Anyway then it rained or ALE ran them off or something else ended that. Does anyone recall? Or am I not remembering this right?

I still wonder what that was about if the dogs were trained to (notify handler) on only human cadaver scent.[/b][/color]

This is what I remember also.  I remember them digging in the sand and placing the sad in this big sifter like thing while a cop was standing there watching.  Tim said there was something there that was moved.

Good morning
I remember this but not the picnic table part.What I remember is Tim from TES saying a unidentified man told them the spot to check,man said there was a hole dug.They showed it on tv....they were sifting the sand from this shallow grave looking hole.I now wonder where was Tim's and TES search going to be that day before this unidentified man told them about this hole cause it seems to me this was just another put on search ment to distract.

I'm sorry but I think you may be referring to another, later, event on another part of the island. What I'm referring to would be right near the Marriott & the salinja they made a big media event out of pumping.

[Anna]

I also wonder who this person was that told Tim to search there. 

I have been thinking, and I believe there are/were more witnesses and tips given than we will ever be told.  I think the majority of those tips etc. were swept under the rug or just simply ignored and/or never followed up on.  That is what is sooooo frustrating in this case.  I believe they had ALL they needed and threw it all away.

Good Morning, All.

Kimmy, I am afraid you are correct.  I can't imagine tips called in to the cells phone of Julia Renfro going much of anywhere except straight to Anita vdSloot to be lost forever.

Those who gave tips to ALE ended up in the loony bin, deported or charged with some crime or other.  Not exactly conducive to people reporting what they knew.  No wonder they were calling bartenders and newspapers instead of the police.

But who knows what tips existed and were discarded so as to never see the light of day.  You know if they would discard physical things that were possibly evidence such as the belt Art Wood found, they would the tips.