Natalee Case Discussion #742 3/10 - 3/14/08

[JE]

Someone (or perhaps more than one) posted about the VDS home as the crime scene. 

I recall early in the case, the blogs had a number of individuals (they also suggested "There is no evidence.") that claimed J2K and Natalee were never at the VDS home.  There was an individual that claimed witnesses had seen the Kalpoe vehicle driving in that direction.

Later, when some of the PVs were published, one of the suspects indicated that they had indeed stopped at the VDS home, but did not go in.  Perhaps they didn't go into the main family unit, but could they have gone into another building?  The neighbors house?  Who were they afraid they would wake up?  Weren't the youngsters at home and on the computer?

The story seems to fall apart after the 'visit'.  imho  Jump to the confession of Joran.  What happened in between?

Isn't it possible that 2K left one behind at the VDS place and took the car home?

The fishermen did not see them on the beach.  Someone saw a boat launched, perhaps the fisherman's?

Obviously ... Jug, Dave and Beth were privy to Joran's June 13, 2005 suspect statement ... a statement that has yet to be revealed.

Janet

++++++++++

Beth Holloway
Loving Natalee

Page 136
Jug, Dave, and I go with Vinda to attorney general Theresa Croes' office.  There, prosecuting attorney Karin Janssen comes in and lays a stack of statements on the conference table in from of us.  Vinda's assistant rifles through them and begins to read one given by Joran van der Sloot, translating from Dutch to English.  Prosecutor Janssen leaves the room.  We are not told what the interrogator asks, but these are Joran's words, his responses, of June 9, 2005. We are not allowed to have copies, so I write it all down.

<snipped>

Page 141
The prime suspect, Joran, is question again on June 11, 2005.  When asked to cooperate with the police on this date he simply says, "No statement.  This is the whole truth. No more."  Then two days later, on June 13, 2005, Joran declares that his previous statements are not true and offers this account:

"My third statement is not true.  Now the truth.  We drove to my house at 1:40 a.m. on May 30.  I want her to come in.  I have sex with her.  Next, we go to the beach and walk to the fishermen's huts ... "

[private eye]

I THINk that there is a possibility for tow types of suit. One is the civil suit that recently has been discussed. The second case is a criminal case after the prosecutor formally declines to prosecute and Natalee's estate would then be allowed to hire a private attorney and prosecute the case instead of the prosecutor

Hi PI.

To avoid having to turn over documents/statements/evidence to any outside party/agency ... I fear that Aruba will NEVER officially close the Natalee Holloway case.  It will be deemed an on-going investigation and ... be allowed to become a cold case.

I concur with Art Wood's contention that the Aruban house of cards will collapse on the day when one of those who played a role in the "something bad" that happened to Natalee Holloway or ... one of those who help dispose of her remains or ... one of those who was aware of or involved in the coverup which has prevented justice from prevailing comes to a place where he/she is ready to accept the consequences of his/her actions ... bows and reaches up ... reveals the truth through "genuine" repentance ... pleads for God's forgiveness and ... please the family's forgiveness.

Accountability in the justice system ordained by men may always be ellusive for many involved but ... the truth will have been revealed.

I pray that in God's perfect timing ... Natalee's family will experience the freedom that only the revealed truth can afford.  I pray that Natalee's family will be given the opportunity to forgive at least one of those ... who has contributed to the family's ongoing H--- on Earth ... when he/she repents.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Sincerely, Janet

+++++++++++

Art Wood
‘Rita Cosby Live & Direct’
December 2, 2005
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10295536/

WOOD: … The reason this case could still be solved is because there are so many people involved in Natalee’s disappearance and in the disposal of her body. When somebody talks, they’re going to all go down. This is like a house of cards.

They appreciate the kind words, especially from someone as knowledgeable as you are about the case. It is indeed a gift to be strong enough as a person to forgive someone, as the forgiver is rewarded far greater than the forgiven I believe. I hope that Beth and Dave in particular prove strong enough to one day be able to forgive Joran, even while insisting that justice be accomplished. A heart full of hatred has no room for love,enjoyment, contentment, and happiness. A heart full of hatred is a heavy heart to bear.

The trick is to be able to grant forgiveness, but still be able to focus on pushing for justice. At this point, I feel as if the people allegedly attacking Joran, are actually the people who represent hope and a future for Joran. If he isn't allowed to confess and repent, he will have no chance for a productive rewarding life. It is his parents and their friends, the forces from the dark, who are holding on to Joran steadfastly trying to keep him from the love of God.

Some people will say that it doesn't seem that my behavior for example is reflective of Christian teachings, and I honestly don't know the answer to that. I feel that the court of public opinion is the only viable means to seeing that justice is served and that Joran is driven into the arms of his Father. For me, to a certain degree, it means playing this out in the public arena, and to do that sometimes I make mean spirited remarks about Joran. But I can forgive Joran and still feel compelled to make sure he is not content in his life absent repentance and confession, and that is what I try and do. I don't have to feel he goes unpunished, and I honestly would punish him myself if ever given the opportunity, to be able to forgive him.

I believe as I am spanking his butt I will be saying that this is going to hurt me more than it does you:), but you deserve and need this, and of course I feel obligated to give it to you. Usually that kind of love comes at the hands of your father, at a much earlier age. To that all I can say is Joran, better late than never, and I am truly sorry your father did such a miserable job raising you.

[private eye]

I also agree with you on them closing the case. A couple of times they have said it was closed only to scramble and say no it is not closed. I am curious though if a private attorney prosecutes the case, do they have the same powers that the prosecutor has?

[KarmaRoundUp]

I haven't see Frank or Robots posting lately.  I think the SM site will become suspect if Frank returns and starts saying things like "I have the utmost faith and trust in Jossy Mansur" and Robots comes back and says that Greta and Joe T. are among the finest humans in the news.  imho

LOL!WhiskeyGirl....I think you are right
I do miss both Robots and Frank.

[Bearlyhere]

Private Eye - yes, Janet explained it very well in a couple posts in response to Tot's original post:

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2689.msg363689#msg363689

The whole situation is sad, but personally I think Beth and Dave have worked together better than 98% of all other people similiar situated. When it has counted they have both been there for each other, supporting each other. I would hate for either of them to start questioning their response to this, their behavior as parents, or their treatment of each other. They did and are doing a great job.They still have a child alive that needs them to function as parents who both financially and emotionally contribute to Matts life and to support him while he is in college, and it takes BOTH parents to support a child in college today.

Excellent post PE. How true.......It serves no purpose to second guess at this time why a mother in a state of understandable emotional distress choose to make a particular call.

The first thing that happens when you are told your child is missing, that (s)he is not where (s)he is supposed to be and you know that child well enough to know (s)he always follows the rules, is you go into panic mode.  You are so focused on getting to the place where you think your child is, your mind goes on auto pilot and you get from the starting point where you heard about it, to the ending point without your feet ever touching the ground or your tires ever touching the road. 

If it was possible to travel through space, this is the point where it I believe it would happen.  The intensity of your focus in addition to the fight and flight combination almost puts you into orbit.  Nothing else exists, I am not sure you even breathe. 

I think Beth's motherly instincts also included her son.  She had to tell him she was not going to be home, after all, she is his mother too.  She would want to keep him safe at this time.  The rest of the world does not even exist during this response, imo.

[Bearlyhere]

Does anyone think the insinuation of attorney Bram Moszkowicz into this mix will possibly cause the big documentary expose by Renee Geilen to be cancelled faster than appearances on that other program from TeleAruba with Host Castro by any chance?

I think there is a very good possibility that they may think twice now about what they say if they know they can be held accountable.  Bram does seem to have quite a rep in this regard.


Off to the ole working and lurking. . . . .

Bram hasn't agreed to take the case yet right? I would imagine that it's all in limbo so to speak.Sounds plausible to me though that they would cancel..

Notice by the end of the transcript, he calls her "my client."   

[klaasend]

I haven't see Frank or Robots posting lately.  I think the SM site will become suspect if Frank returns and starts saying things like "I have the utmost faith and trust in Jossy Mansur" and Robots comes back and says that Greta and Joe T. are among the finest humans in the news.  imho

LOL!WhiskeyGirl....I think you are right
I do miss both Robots and Frank.

Not sure where Frank is but I know Robots is till working "under cover" and sometimes posting on the front page of SM 

[Tater]

Does anyone think the insinuation of attorney Bram Moszkowicz into this mix will possibly cause the big documentary expose by Renee Geilen to be cancelled faster than appearances on that other program from TeleAruba with Host Castro by any chance?

I think there is a very good possibility that they may think twice now about what they say if they know they can be held accountable.  Bram does seem to have quite a rep in this regard.


Off to the ole working and lurking. . . . .

Bram hasn't agreed to take the case yet right? I would imagine that it's all in limbo so to speak.Sounds plausible to me though that they would cancel..

Notice by the end of the transcript, he calls her "my client."   

Why you little smarty pants!!!

[BTgirl]

I haven't see Frank or Robots posting lately.  I think the SM site will become suspect if Frank returns and starts saying things like "I have the utmost faith and trust in Jossy Mansur" and Robots comes back and says that Greta and Joe T. are among the finest humans in the news.  imho

LOL!WhiskeyGirl....I think you are right
I do miss both Robots and Frank.

Not sure where Frank is but I know Robots is till working "under cover" and sometimes posting on the front page of SM 

I miss our Robots' cheerfulness and positive attitude. He needs to get his behind back in here and post once in a while.

[KarmaRoundUp]

I haven't see Frank or Robots posting lately.  I think the SM site will become suspect if Frank returns and starts saying things like "I have the utmost faith and trust in Jossy Mansur" and Robots comes back and says that Greta and Joe T. are among the finest humans in the news.  imho

LOL!WhiskeyGirl....I think you are right
I do miss both Robots and Frank.

Not sure where Frank is but I know Robots is till working "under cover" and sometimes posting on the front page of SM 

I read and see him there but still miss his optimisim here in the cage.

[ldstlou]

I haven't see Frank or Robots posting lately.  I think the SM site will become suspect if Frank returns and starts saying things like "I have the utmost faith and trust in Jossy Mansur" and Robots comes back and says that Greta and Joe T. are among the finest humans in the news.  imho

LOL!WhiskeyGirl....I think you are right
I do miss both Robots and Frank.

Not sure where Frank is but I know Robots is till working "under cover" and sometimes posting on the front page of SM 

I miss our Robots' cheerfulness and positive attitude. He needs to get his behind back in here and post once in a while.

I agree!!! Roooobots...wheeere aaaare yooou?

[klaasend]

O/T REMINDER

[ldstlou]

Does anyone think the insinuation of attorney Bram Moszkowicz into this mix will possibly cause the big documentary expose by Renee Geilen to be cancelled faster than appearances on that other program from TeleAruba with Host Castro by any chance?

I think there is a very good possibility that they may think twice now about what they say if they know they can be held accountable.  Bram does seem to have quite a rep in this regard.


Off to the ole working and lurking. . . . .

Bram hasn't agreed to take the case yet right? I would imagine that it's all in limbo so to speak.Sounds plausible to me though that they would cancel..

Notice by the end of the transcript, he calls her "my client."   

great eye!! I didn't notice that!! That is a good sign I would think!!

[Destiny]

I haven't see Frank or Robots posting lately.  I think the SM site will become suspect if Frank returns and starts saying things like "I have the utmost faith and trust in Jossy Mansur" and Robots comes back and says that Greta and Joe T. are among the finest humans in the news.  imho

LOL!WhiskeyGirl....I think you are right
I do miss both Robots and Frank.

Not sure where Frank is but I know Robots is till working "under cover" and sometimes posting on the front page of SM 

Klaas...tell Robots he's been under the sheets long enough!  Time for him to get his rusty butt back *here*...undercover my arse....

[klaasend]

O/T REMINDER

Show starts in 5 minutes - tune in now!

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/radio.m3u

[klaasend]

ON NOW!

[Tamikosmom]

I THINk that there is a possibility for tow types of suit. One is the civil suit that recently has been discussed. The second case is a criminal case after the prosecutor formally declines to prosecute and Natalee's estate would then be allowed to hire a private attorney and prosecute the case instead of the prosecutor

Hi PI.

To avoid having to turn over documents/statements/evidence to any outside party/agency ... I fear that Aruba will NEVER officially close the Natalee Holloway case.  It will be deemed an on-going investigation and ... be allowed to become a cold case.

I concur with Art Wood's contention that the Aruban house of cards will collapse on the day when one of those who played a role in the "something bad" that happened to Natalee Holloway or ... one of those who help dispose of her remains or ... one of those who was aware of or involved in the coverup which has prevented justice from prevailing comes to a place where he/she is ready to accept the consequences of his/her actions ... bows and reaches up ... reveals the truth through "genuine" repentance ... pleads for God's forgiveness and ... please the family's forgiveness.

Accountability in the justice system ordained by men may always be ellusive for many involved but ... the truth will have been revealed.

I pray that in God's perfect timing ... Natalee's family will experience the freedom that only the revealed truth can afford.  I pray that Natalee's family will be given the opportunity to forgive at least one of those ... who has contributed to the family's ongoing H--- on Earth ... when he/she repents.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Sincerely, Janet

+++++++++++

Art Wood
‘Rita Cosby Live & Direct’
December 2, 2005
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10295536/

WOOD: … The reason this case could still be solved is because there are so many people involved in Natalee’s disappearance and in the disposal of her body. When somebody talks, they’re going to all go down. This is like a house of cards.

They appreciate the kind words, especially from someone as knowledgeable as you are about the case. It is indeed a gift to be strong enough as a person to forgive someone, as the forgiver is rewarded far greater than the forgiven I believe. I hope that Beth and Dave in particular prove strong enough to one day be able to forgive Joran, even while insisting that justice be accomplished. A heart full of hatred has no room for love,enjoyment, contentment, and happiness. A heart full of hatred is a heavy heart to bear.

The trick is to be able to grant forgiveness, but still be able to focus on pushing for justice. At this point, I feel as if the people allegedly attacking Joran, are actually the people who represent hope and a future for Joran. If he isn't allowed to confess and repent, he will have no chance for a productive rewarding life. It is his parents and their friends, the forces from the dark, who are holding on to Joran steadfastly trying to keep him from the love of God.

Some people will say that it doesn't seem that my behavior for example is reflective of Christian teachings, and I honestly don't know the answer to that. I feel that the court of public opinion is the only viable means to seeing that justice is served and that Joran is driven into the arms of his Father. For me, to a certain degree, it means playing this out in the public arena, and to do that sometimes I make mean spirited remarks about Joran. But I can forgive Joran and still feel compelled to make sure he is not content in his life absent repentance and confession, and that is what I try and do. I don't have to feel he goes unpunished, and I honestly would punish him myself if ever given the opportunity, to be able to forgive him.

I believe as I am spanking his butt I will be saying that this is going to hurt me more than it does you:), but you deserve and need this, and of course I feel obligated to give it to you. Usually that kind of love comes at the hands of your father, at a much earlier age. To that all I can say is Joran, better late than never, and I am truly sorry your father did such a miserable job raising you.

PI ... I agree with you 100%.

The line was drawn in the sand over 2000 years ago ... repentence and forgiveness is a package deal.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

However ... a person who has repented and ... has been forgiven by those he wronged is not spared from accepting personal responsibility for his actions.  His new heart should dictate that he would willingly take responsibility.

Example:  Eldest son who humbled his Dad and me as a teenager and ... believe me ... prior to coloring each month ... I have a head full of grey hairs to prove it.

When this guy was 17 years old and ... was given the priviledge to drive the family car ... the rule was clearly understood ... a driving infraction implied the return of the keys and ... length of time ... our call.

Well ... first speeding ticket ... return of keys was demanded.  This 17 year old in tears (not a pretty sight) begged our forgiveness ... it would never happend again.  Dad and Mom forgave repentant son.

 

However ... repentant and forgiven son could not understand why  repentance and forgiveness did not imply the return of those keys.

 

Whether eldest son understood that day or not ... a lesson was learned ... in the learning process consequences for wrong choices must be applied ... not spared. 

Janet

[ldstlou]

I am so darned nervous!! I have a terrible voice...don't laugh at me!!!

[mrs. red]

i have  a HUGE headache after reading my emails....

going to make soup for Church for Lenten Services


Keep the faith....

[klaasend]

I am so darned nervous!! I have a terrible voice...don't laugh at me!!!

I'll try not to laugh, LOL