Natalee Case Discussion #747 4/11 - 4/17/08

[Observer]

[sandy leiva]

Janet,

I am also absolutely haunted by the Marcos story.  Dave would not have been so involved with it, if he too didn't think that there was something valid to it.

Every single time we get "close" to the truth, another "diversion" story pops up. The "Marcos" story was right in the midst of The Persistence finding the cage. I tend to think it means the "cage" story is where we need to focus. MOO

If this Marcus told this story in front of the authoritys didnt they get more info on him andd why can he not be tracked down.  Is he dead also??(sarcasm)

[GBMW]

Hereby something I post on RU...(for the people that don't read on both forums ...). There is a good reason why I'm not going to post about the Thailand thing anymore; it's mostly work related (don't want to cause trouble for a co-worker or myself).

[/b]
Neither does starting a rumor on the Scared Monkeys about Joran being in Thailand, or at least that you do think he was in Thailand mean that he was in Thailand. Believing that someone is in Thailand, doesn't mean he is there, and from your own experience, who did you call to verify that Joran was indeed in Thailand.
Phunny that you posted the following on SM but not here at RU.


I don't post everything that I put on this forum on SM either. And it seems to me there are enough people around that watch both forums  and I have the same nic on both...I'm not hiding anything. And besides...aren't the forums filled with rumours anyway? At least I know for certain my rumour is actually based on something.

On him being in Thailand: I work for a newsprogramme and my info doesn't come from the sky ... people travel around...they think it's newsworthy and they mail / phone us. We (my co-workers...I'm not the one who checks things) haven't checked that...it's not of interest to us. Doesn't mean we don't read our e-mail or answer the phone when that information is coming to us . It only became interesting when we heard about stuff that seemed to have happened there.

And I didn't start the rumour...it's been going on for some time. I've read some things on a couple of Dutch sites in the comments section on certain newstexts concerning the case about Joran being in Thailand. At my workplace we got lots of e-mails & phonecalls.....so I figured the rumour was known already on RU & SM (I don't read everything on the forums). I guess I was wrong.

I'm not going to post / comment about Joran - Thailand anymore. That's for personal reasons & work related. But that doesn't change what's said in the posts btw...but it's already out there so can't change that anymore.

[klaasend]

GBMW - Those of us that have been following this case since the beginning are quite aware that often rumors are untrue.  We now put all of the rumors on a shelf and wait for proof.

I have no problem with you posting what you heard about Joran being in Thailand but don't necessarily believe it.  There was a report yesterday on Gretawire that someone saw the Sloots in Korea and I don't necessarily believe that either.  I put both those rumors on the shelf waiting for proof one way or the other.   

[johan555]

what is this ******* > i don't understand pappa papa i a mentoooo

[klaasend]

Johan - here is a translation from last night about the same incident.  It's not a translation of the article above but about the same thing:

A body was found near Tunnel of Love.

We have indication that a couple of hours ago ALE has found a dead body, probably burned in the vicinity of Tunnel of Love. The road to that area was closed off completely. We are in search of information and details of this news. These are the first picture of the area of the incident.

On the News tonight, The reported said that a body was found completely burned and when the authorities arrived, the body was still smoldering and still in smoke. The body was completely burned beyond recognition. They can not determined yet if is was a man or a Women.


More to be revealed in the Morning papers

[Rob]

Hi and Good Morning, as for the poor deceased person, if this is a foreign national, it could remain an unsolved who he / she was / is.

I would doubt that Aruba has access to the dental records of everyone on Aruba. Record keeping does not seem to be a strong suit.

If the person is an Aruban or a foreign national that actually resides on Aruba there could be a good chance the person will be identified.

Someone must have burnt the body to conceal more than just drugs, beating, stab wounds, etc...

[Tamikosmom]

Good Morning Monkeys.

I do believe the caffeine buzz from my morning coffee has yet to clear the cobwebs.

******* ... could you please tell me what you posted ... I see nothing.

 

Janet
8:10 AM

[johan555]

what is this ******* > i don't understand pappa papa i a mentoooo

################################################
I think it is here the old esso theater ,i wrote about that building on fok
a perfect place  to .........................

[Tamikosmom]

NOW I see it.

 

Janet

[Tamikosmom]

Klaas ... please check your email.

Thanks

Janet

[klaasend]

Johan - here is a translation from last night about the same incident.  It's not a translation of the article above but about the same thing:

A body was found near Tunnel of Love.

We have indication that a couple of hours ago ALE has found a dead body, probably burned in the vicinity of Tunnel of Love. The road to that area was closed off completely. We are in search of information and details of this news. These are the first picture of the area of the incident.

On the News tonight, The reported said that a body was found completely burned and when the authorities arrived, the body was still smoldering and still in smoke. The body was completely burned beyond recognition. They can not determined yet if is was a man or a Women.


More to be revealed in the Morning papers

Johan and Janet - this is what that AweMainta article is about.  It was first reported last night on the 24ora site.

[Tamikosmom]

Johan - here is a translation from last night about the same incident.  It's not a translation of the article above but about the same thing:

A body was found near Tunnel of Love.

We have indication that a couple of hours ago ALE has found a dead body, probably burned in the vicinity of Tunnel of Love. The road to that area was closed off completely. We are in search of information and details of this news. These are the first picture of the area of the incident.

On the News tonight, The reported said that a body was found completely burned and when the authorities arrived, the body was still smoldering and still in smoke. The body was completely burned beyond recognition. They can not determined yet if is was a man or a Women.


More to be revealed in the Morning papers

Johan and Janet - this is what that AweMainta article is about.  It was first reported last night on the 24ora site.

Thank you Klaas.

Janet

[ldstlou]

Morning Monkeys!!!

Patrick responded to an e-mail that Justice for Natalee sent out in regards to our DC protest. He is posting his response on his website also. Although I don't agree, I respect his opinion and spoke mine too. I posted both in the DC protest thread. Please take a moment and voice your opnions on the matter.

And let's really be heard in DC!!!

MEET ME IN DC...... MEET ME IN DC .......JUNE 21ST..... MEET ME IN DC...MEET ME IN DC

[Dayhiker]

Hi and Good Morning, as for the poor deceased person, if this is a foreign national, it could remain an unsolved who he / she was / is.

I would doubt that Aruba has access to the dental records of everyone on Aruba. Record keeping does not seem to be a strong suit.

If the person is an Aruban or a foreign national that actually resides on Aruba there could be a good chance the person will be identified.

Someone must have burnt the body to conceal more than just drugs, beating, stab wounds, etc...

Morning Bro! They need to re-name it The Tunnel of Death on the Island Of No Return.

 

[Tamikosmom]

Morning Monkeys!!!

Patrick responded to an e-mail that Justice for Natalee sent out in regards to our DC protest. He is posting his response on his website also. Although I don't agree, I respect his opinion and spoke mine too. I posted both in the DC protest thread. Please take a moment and voice your opnions on the matter.

And let's really be heard in DC!!!

MEET ME IN DC...... MEET ME IN DC .......JUNE 21ST..... MEET ME IN DC...MEET ME IN DC

ldstlou ... I fail to understand how those who are sincerely striving for justice in the Natalee Holloway case believe that this objective can be met by cooperating with and upholding those who have prevented justice from prevailing since the getgo.

Obviously ... the dynamics encompassing the coverup ... the corrupt investigation ... is not comprehended or ... believed.

Janet

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2778.0

[ldstlou]

This burned my britches, although I will respect his opinion. This was copied from Patrick's website and posted at RU.

LET'S BE HEARD!!! MEET ME IN DC.... LET'S BE HEARD....  MEET ME IN DC...NO JUSTICE FOR NATALEE NO TOURISTS FOR ARUBA.... MEET ME IN DC.....MEET ME IN DC
Monday, April 14th, 2008

The ongoing boycot Aruba saga


There are still groups of people in the US which want a boycott of the island. Obviously was it for these people a vexation that there now a consent of Joran lies and justice hard to the battle is examine if Joran can be continued still, whereas Mr. Slab Moszkowitz will tighten a civil procedure. I against continuing such a boycott and have even clear have been put that I gladly consider that as a reward these action groups in the US stop with the gezeur for a boycott. Last week about that a discussion was in these blog. Below I publish my letter to an organizer of niewe boycott action. I publish therefore volledigheidshalve its letter firstly.

Hey Everyone,
Im sending out a group email…Im hoping that we can get a huge group going to OUR STATE CAPITOL in JUNE where we will have permission to wear out Tshirts inside the Ronald Regan Bldg…This is the best place to speak up for Natalee. Im making buttons..over 500 of them to hand out so ppl can wear them inside…Im hoping for at least 2 good days..The weekend..Please if you have family or friends near the Capitol urge them to go. If you can make it…the rooms are like 70.00 a night…WE NEED TO BE HEARD…Wearing my tshirt over the weekend in Greensboro NC, a couple came over to me and in a very loud voice said IM BOYCOTTING ARUBA too…So no matter what we need to make more ppl aware of what has happened there and continues to happen. They asked me where do I recommend that they vacation and I said, here in the USA. Gave them places like Destin FL, and Amelia Island, Key West….It doesnt have to be an Island in the Carribean where CRIMMINALS are allowed to roam free…
Please let me know.
Love
Vicki
PS..Donations are always welcomed

OPEN LETTER TO ALL WHO RECEIVED THIS EMAIL

Dear all,

By now you probably all know that I am disappointed by the continuous call for a boycott of Aruba. It is a small reward to ask when you invest five months of your life to get the confession of Joran. Not only did this confession led to big problem for Joran, who can’t show his face on the streets anymore, with an upcoming civil suit, but also police and prosecutors are working hard on the case and the load of tips the broadcast brought. There is no indication at all at this moment that the justice department of Aruba is NOT investigating the case under the rules of Dutch law (which is mainly the law of Aruba). It was clear the last three years that Aruban law enforcement could not bring the case against Joran to a good end. It was clear that this poisoned the relationship between the people in America and the people of Aruba. This was one of my main reasons to take matters in my own hand. Instead of asking for a financial reward that had been put out for tips that led to the breakthrough of the case (there was another reward for finding the body), I requested for the reward to stop any boycott which hurts the normal people in Aruba. I have said that I am disappointed with all people in the US who do not want to honor that request.

I am not going into any claims of possible corruption in Aruba from the moment Natalee disappeared because I do not have the knowledge, nor the evidence, that there has been any official government corruption in this case. God knows if the father of Joran has used personal contacts to try to influence the outcome of the case when he was a judge in training. If so, than I would not call it official corruption, but the act of a man who is not even Aruban. I believe that many people who want to follow this kind or requests do also not have first hand information about true facts of corruption, but as followers just base their opinion on the suggestion and speculation of others.

I understand the American people are disappointed about what happened in Aruba after the disappearance of Natalee. I was disappointed too. And I did what I had to do.

This email for a boycott campaign ended with the words “It doesn’t have to be an Island in the Carribean where CRIMMINALS are allowed to roam free.” That is suggestive, untrue and false. The crime rate on Aruba is much lower than in all states of the US. There has not been any major case like Natalee’s in Aruba anymore the last years. Statistics show that murder cases in Aruba don’t even come close – even that is an understatement - to the number of murder cases in the US and that includes unsolved murder cases. There is also no evidence that after Natalee any miscarriage of justice continued to take place in Aruba. Also the US has clear examples of miscarriage of justice, like in the case of Ron Williamson as described in John Grisham’s book, where prosecutors had to be blamed for mishandling a murder case, which left the victims in the cold (by not solving the case and making wrong arrests). I don’t have these particular statistics, but I would not be surprised if measured by crime rate Aruba is a safer place than the US holiday destinations mentioned in this email. My point is certainly, that without such statistics on the table, a call to boycott Aruba in favor of these places is shortsighted. Do all of you want to take responsibility for the next visitor of Key West or Destiin Florida who becomes a victim of crime, while that person would have had an undisturbed holiday in Aruba? Of course not. The other way around I would not take the responsibility also. But do you know the statistics? If not, how fair and irresponsible is this advice for better holiday destinations?

I believe the continuous call of a boycott of Aruba is getting the quality of a ‘witch hunt’. Are there really any complaints how the justice department of Aruba is handling the case of Natalee at this point in time? What are they? Are you sure there is no bigger miscarriage of justice in your own country or elsewhere that would deserve a lot more all your energy and spirit? Especially after all what I did to bring this case nearer to a complete close and what the Aruban justice department is doing now. Do you really know what the Aruban justice department is doing now?

If it was a perfect world the bad guy would always go to jail, but it is not a perfect world. Yours neither Aruba’s. The boycott can go on forever, but at a certain point it ceases to be any good for anyone and that point started after I got Joran’ confession and Beth found peace after she came to know what happened to her daughter.

Greetings,

Patrick van der Eem

http://patrickvandereem.nl/

[Dayhiker]

Are there follow-up stories posted about the dead people that are found?  Would anyone expect a follow-up story about these four dead people that have been burned?

3 of them were family members killed by the youngest son who had mental issues and drug problems.  A very sad case and a shock to everyone in Aruba.

Then there is this one today which looks more like a possible drug deal gone bad type of incident.  Hopefully there will be followup on it.

Was reading over the old NH posts from RWV archive last night. By first week of June they already had Arubans on the board exclaiming that there is no crime on Aruba. By June 10th AHATA already had trolls in place saying she was a drug user and runaway.

Didn't take long for them to start the disinformation campaign.

[ldstlou]

Morning Monkeys!!!

Patrick responded to an e-mail that Justice for Natalee sent out in regards to our DC protest. He is posting his response on his website also. Although I don't agree, I respect his opinion and spoke mine too. I posted both in the DC protest thread. Please take a moment and voice your opnions on the matter.

And let's really be heard in DC!!!

MEET ME IN DC...... MEET ME IN DC .......JUNE 21ST..... MEET ME IN DC...MEET ME IN DC

ldstlou ... I fail to understand how those who are sincerely striving for justice in the Natalee Holloway case believe that this objective can be met by cooperating with and upholding those who have prevented justice from prevailing since the getgo.

Obviously ... the dynamics encompassing the coverup ... the corrupt investigation ... is not comprehended or ... believed.

Janet

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2778.0

Exactly Janet!!!! You said it all.

Here was my response to Patrick. Hope others will post their responses and views in the DC protest thread.

Patrick,
It was a pleasure to receive an e-mail from you, I had no idea you were on this e-mail list. I have nothing but respect for what you have done for Beth and Natalee. It must have been  very difficult for you, dealing with Joran for all those months, but very rewarding to you in the end. I am so glad I had the opportunity to hear from you, and to respond to you.
 
I have had the pleasure of getting to know some members of Natalee's family and they have nothing but great things to say about the local Arubans, I am sure they are absolutely wonderful people. Everyone on this email has their own opinion, including yourself. I just want to take a moment and express my opinions on the matter and hope you will respect my view as I respect yours. I have a 7 year old son. He is the light of my life!! I don't know if I could survive if something happened to him. I know if he died as Natalee did, I would find away to make it through until I could find Justice for him and bring him home for a proper burial, just as Beth is doing. I would owe him that. As a parent I am sure you can understand that. I lead the protest here in St Louis a few weeks ago. Our message was simple, no Justice for Natalee, no Tourists for Aruba. Although I have no ill feelings towards the people of Aruba, how could I, I have never met them, I do however believe strongly that if you are going to invite people to your home, you must insure their safety, I have absolutely no confidence what so ever, that the police and officials of Aruba have our safety and best interests in mind. None Patrick. My lack of confidence does not come from hatred, nor prejudice, it comes from experience, it comes from watching this case from day one. It comes from seeing the reality of how Beth and her family were treated, how Dave Holloway was treated, and how Aruban officials made a choice when Natalee disappeared, and that choice was that American tourism dollars were more important than sending Natalee home.
Now as a mother, I teach my son, the choices that you make have consequences. Aruban officials and their Tourism Associations made a choice, they decided it was more important to keep their reputation as a "safe island" than to bring Natalee's murderers to justice. Their choices have consequences, one of which is I , as well as many others, no longer feel Aruba is a safe place, nor an honorable place. There is absolutely no honor, nor pride in how Natalee was treated, nor in how her family and friends were treated. I believe in honor, I believe in respect. I think you do also Patrick, I think you have shown those qualities are important to you. I think you believe in liberty and justice therefore I hope you understand my reasons for protesting Aruba's Tourists Associations coming to American seeking our hard earned dollars we save for our families to rest and enjoy our much earned vacations, without showing us the respect we deserve for choosing Aruba. Aruba lost my respect Patrick, as a result of their choices, they lost the respect of a lot of Americans. Until they earn our respect back, I will protest their attempts to draw us to their island for our family vacations.
You are correct in saying crime happens everywhere. We have plenty here in St Louis!!! The difference Patrick is that here in St Louis, if a crime occurs, I have every confidence in the world that I can go to my police and local politicians and receive justice. The irony of Aruba billing itself as the safest island is, that in order to sell that notion, they can't acknowledge that they have any crime. As a result of billing itself as the safest island, when they do have a crime, they have to cover it up...can you see the vicious cycle? And almost 3 years later, we don't see anything has changed.
So until Aruba takes responsibility for their crime, which as you said, happens everywhere. Until Aruba takes responsibility for what happened to Natalee. Until Aruba takes responsibility for the cover up of Natalee's death. Until Aruba takes responsibility for what they put Beth and Dave and Jug and all of Natalee's family through. Until they take responsibility for what they put members of Scared Monkeys through. Until Aruba takes responsibility for watching family and friends digging through mounds of garbage and sending them on wild goose chases to crack houses. Until Aruba takes responsibility for funding websites designed to counter our efforts to find Natalee. Until Aruban officials acknowledge that they spent millions on disinformation campaigns and campaigns to discredit and disgrace Natalee's reputation and that of her family and friends who til this day, still mourn her and long for a proper burial. Until I know for sure, that the youth of Aruba have stopped looking at our daughters as "easy prey"; slip them a date rape drug, rape them and drop them off at their hotels just in time for them to catch their plane home.Until Aruba takes responsibility for their choices, I will be there at these protests with my message, No Justice for Natalee, No tourism for Aruba. I hope you can respect my opnion, as I have respected yours.
Thank you,
"ldstlou"

[Dayhiker]

This burned my britches, although I will respect his opinion. This was copied from Patrick's website and posted at RU.
 <snipped>

In all due respect to Mr. Eem, because I do appreciate him exposing Joran, he was in Holland for most of time all the corruption went on and the case never even got much traction until over there until Joran confessed. If he had followed the case like we have week in and week out he would know it is clear as a bell the Dutchies in the government, police department, prosecutors office and judiciary purposely corrupted the case.

We witnessed them day by day, week by week, year by year, do everything in their power to keep Joran out of prison. Patrick needs to go back and do some serious reading here before he scratches his scalp over whether they are corrupt or not.