Natalee Case Discussion #738 3/1 - 3/3/08

[Rob]

My personal belief is they are there because the FARC and Chavez are about to attempt something against Columbia.

[klaasend]

Reminder - this is on tonight:

Sunday 2nd of March, 2008 Telearuba will show a program called "A day in a Life"

The show will be About Natalee Holloway. It will be Bradcast via Telearuba , Tele Curacao. and ANT TV.

Beside the Live TV cast, it will be transmitted via the radio stations in Aruba TOP FM, COOL FM, and Real FM, on Curacao it will be Direct FM.

Via Internet www.telearuba.aw and the other stations www.promoaruba.aw

There also will be 3 live telephone lines for people to ask question on sunday.

Questions can now be sent to undiadenbida@setarnet.aw and undiadenbida@hotmail.com

also via MAS (SMS) messages 2001

The Pannels are:

Mirna Jansen - Director Aruba Tourism Authority (ATA)
Rob Smith - AHATA

show of pre-recorded interview with Dr. Ryan Peterson of the University of Ariba and Mr. Ruben Croes of Aruba Search and Rescue.

Mr Bob Harms - His Topic will be Crisis Management.

Mr Hans Mos, Ministerio Pulbico (OM)

Show pre-recorded interview with Patric van de Eem / Joran van der Sloot

and a film that was never been shown to anyone made by the Investigators Team (ALE)

Posted by Glenda at RU:

Something came up and Moss had to canx his TV appearance today.

[Anna]

mmmmmmmmm..............okay Buckeye, I do remember the 2006 bust re: Coast Guard, but I can't seem to find it. I think it was on Scared Monkeys front page at the time. Sorry I can't find it.

Here is a drug bust involving Dutch Marines with 700 pounds of cocaine but involved the use of official aircraft instead of naval vessels.

http://lmtonline.com/news/archive/071698/pagea11.pdf

I remember a big drug bust, too, and think it involved the watercraft instead of this one for aircraft but believe this one has the right timing.  Dunno.

.

[AZSunny]

My personal belief is they are there because the FARC and Chavez are about to attempt something against Columbia.

Rob if that is the case,I can understand the Homeland Security forces there, but if Cheney is there it doesn't make sense.  They would not physically put him in the middle of something like that. 

[private eye]

My personal opinion is that Joran is in prison no matter where he roams. I just want someone to smoke him. There's no rehabilitating him. He's gone way past that. He told everyone during the tapes with Patrick he wants to commit more crimes. Normally, someone who has almost gotten away with the crimes he has would lay low. Not Joran. His parents are wholly responsible for all future crimes also. There should be no future crimes for 15 years minimum.

Freedom is all in the mind.

I know this is gonna sound strange coming from me, but there is hope for everyone who admits the truth, sincerely repents with a sincere change of heart, and pays his due to society.God tells us that in every written word He has caused to be written, every hymn He has caused to be sung, and every minute of every day that we are allowed to feel His love. Beth and her family don't want to hate Joran forever, though they honestly feel that way at this minute in time because he hasn't done the above. They want this process to move forward for them, and for Joran, so that they can move towards being able to forgive Joran, so that they can see Joran get the message, see the light bulb turn on, and become the child of God that God wants. They also know this must be their goal if they want to continue to feel His love.

If it takes an ass beating to get him there, or a breakdown, or whatever, so be it. What ever God chooses. Ok maybe I was trying to suggest something for Him to consider:)

Hatred is a heavy burden to have to carry and it is my goal that Beth doesn't have to carry this hatred to her grave as it will rob her of so many opportunities to enjoy her life on earth and will compete with God for control of her heart. It ain't over for humans until God says its over, and like it or not Joran is a child of God as well.

Does that mean we should let up off of his ass? Hell no! We are what is running him into the arms of the Lord:) Once there he will be strong enough to admit the truth, take his punishment, and be rewarded with contentment and satisfaction, and a new life. Beth will be able to forgive him and move on. And as far as the specifics of this case, all will be good.

God can replace the loss Beth and her family feels with joy and contentment, Natalee certainly can't complain, and life can move on and be good for them. God has been showering them with the blessings of all of you people's support and love since the day Natalee left them and will do do as long as they keep turning to Him for answers. And they will. That is how this is going to play out.

[private eye]

I do pray to God, often, and I always remind Him that I am ready and able to serve:)

[Anna]

My personal belief is they are there because the FARC and Chavez are about to attempt something against Columbia.

Good Morning Rob,

Yes, the arrest of the second in command of FARC is the biggest catch ever made against that organization and Chavez is threatening war because of the national boundaries being crossed in attempting to hunt down and attack FARC.

And we know that Venezuela has become the "super highway" for all drugs coming out of South America now.  Certainly a lot of activity in that regard.

I do wonder, however, with the chance of actual combat breaking out involving Chavez army if any dignitaries would go to the region at all because of safety issues.

But it could be for top level negotiations to try to prevent the outbreak of actual combat, etc.  Chavez is still claiming to be negotiating for the release of more of the hostages FARC is still holding.

.

[Rob]

My personal belief is they are there because the FARC and Chavez are about to attempt something against Columbia.

Rob if that is the case,I can understand the Homeland Security forces there, but if Cheney is there it doesn't make sense.  They would not physically put him in the middle of something like that. 

Do we know for a fact that Cheney is there? I kinda doubt it. This isn't his kind of thing in my opinion.

Cheney does not deal with island slumlords.

[Destiny]

My personal opinion is that Joran is in prison no matter where he roams. I just want someone to smoke him. There's no rehabilitating him. He's gone way past that. He told everyone during the tapes with Patrick he wants to commit more crimes. Normally, someone who has almost gotten away with the crimes he has would lay low. Not Joran. His parents are wholly responsible for all future crimes also. There should be no future crimes for 15 years minimum.

Freedom is all in the mind.

I know this is gonna sound strange coming from me, but there is hope for everyone who admits the truth, sincerely repents with a sincere change of heart, and pays his due to society.God tells us that in every written word He has caused to be written, every hymn He has caused to be sung, and every minute of every day that we are allowed to feel His love. Beth and her family don't want to hate Joran forever, though they honestly feel that way at this minute in time because he hasn't done the above. They want this process to move forward for them, and for Joran, so that they can move towards being able to forgive Joran, so that they can see Joran get the message, see the light bulb turn on, and become the child of God that God wants. They also know this must be their goal if they want to continue to feel His love.

If it takes an ass beating to get him there, or a breakdown, or whatever, so be it. What ever God chooses. Ok maybe I was trying to suggest something for Him to consider:)

Hatred is a heavy burden to have to carry and it is my goal that Beth doesn't have to carry this hatred to her grave as it will rob her of so many opportunities to enjoy her life on earth and will compete with God for control of her heart. It ain't over for humans until God says its over, and like it or not Joran is a child of God as well.

Does that mean we should let up off of his ass? Hell no! We are what is running him into the arms of the Lord:) Once there he will be strong enough to admit the truth, take his punishment, and be rewarded with contentment and satisfaction, and a new life. Beth will be able to forgive him and move on. And as far as the specifics of this case, all will be good.

God can replace the loss Beth and her family feels with joy and contentment, Natalee certainly can't complain, and life can move on and be good for them. God has been showering them with the blessings of all of you people's support and love since the day Natalee left them and will do do as long as they keep turning to Him for answers. And they will. That is how this is going to play out.

Mornin' Monkeys!

I have about an hour before I have to leave...just had to drop in and Thank PI for this post....it is from the heart...it is truth...it is good...

[KarmaRoundUp]

Good morning Monkeys
I brought this over from the last thread,posted by Sunny.I had this site saved but lost it,very interesting site.This person also did thought prints on at least one more of joran's interviews.I find him to be very accurate.

Sunny posted:

I found this vey interesting....and the site is facinating too..http://www.eyesforlies.com/ 




http://eyesforlies.blogspot.com/2008/02/jorans-confession-my-thoughts.html



Eyes for Lies
The Human Lie Detector Blog


Truth fears no question



Monday, February 11, 2008
Joran's Confession: My Thoughts
Many people have asked me over the past week to comment on Joran's confession. While I have many thoughts on it, I must say that since Joran spoke in Dutch, it isn't as easy for me to make concrete comments about Joran's words or behavior because it is essential for me to hear and understand the words Joran speaks verbatim which I am unable to do here.

Furthermore, seeing Joran's facial expressions when each word is spoken assists me in understanding him as well, and while I can correlate the main gist of things, I don't get the deep understanding I normally do by watching words and expressions together like I do when English is the spoken language.

But I do believe the overall message of Joran's words are still telling. Do know that I am depending on the translated meaning, and if that translation is in any way inaccurate, I retract my thought processes below.

Read more A translation of Joran's confession is online here. I do not know anything about its source, or the validity of it, but from what I saw on ABC's television special about Joran's confession, it appears to be remarkably similar so I will work from it. If you find anything more reliable, please let me know.


I do not believe that Joran's confession is an outright lie. His claim of this makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever. Here is a guy who has been thrown in jail several times, and has had his entire life turned upside down by the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. If he is innocent, he should be mad at the injustices done to him, and he should be putting up a fight to stop it by seeking the truth--not going out and joking he did it with people.

People who are wrongly accused of a crime or made a suspect only want the truth to surface. That is their main goal. They do not have the time, energy, or any remote desire to implicate themselves for the fun of it. It's pure rubbish. It defies logic.

There are aspects of his story that I believe he may "take to the grave" with him.

Joran wants us to believe here that Natalee out-of the-blue convulsed on the beach, and he panicked, and disposed of her. This raises a serious red flag because we are missing the reason as to why.

If it were only a fear-based reaction as Joran wants us to believe, we would expect Joran to run for help, or at worst, flee the situation and leave Natalee on the beach to her own fate. Fear wouldn't cause him to go this extra mile for no reason. The disposal of her body is very suggestive that something happened that was illegal. People don't just dispose of someone without a reason. It's illogical.

One can only speculate about what illegal activity may have happened, but one potential could be the use of a date rape drug. If Natalee had an illegal drug in her system such as this, the implications to Joran could be devastating, and fleeing wouldn't do him any good. This speculative situation could cause someone to dispose of a body.

Add into the mix what Joran says...

Joran: So they know if they bring the case to court now, it's done. Even if they find that girl dead with my sperm in her...
Joran doesn't says he had sex with her, so why is he talking about "sperm"? It shows Joran is still contradicting himself which is a red flag. With that, we are left to add up the pieces of the puzzle to see what is plausible and what makes sense. People behave in predictable patterns. If there was a date rape drug used here, sperm, again would make sense.

Furthermore, I find it strange that Joran says he will take his friend's name to the "grave with him", and then he volunteers a name at another time. It's another oddity. Joran makes such a strong statement, that is believable, and then he retracts it and gives us a name. Sometimes, when people aren't telling the truth, they waffle like this, and tell us lies in an attempt to cover themselves.

On top of that, when Joran makes this comment, it raises my eyebrows:

J: They've always been good to me, and I've always been good to them. So yes, I know who it is, but I'm not going to tell you his name. But it isn't my parents or anything, but someone who's a really good friend of mine.
If it was a friend who did this for you, would your parents even enter into your mind? You wouldn't even think to say it wasn't them, would you? This raises my eyebrows. To my knowledge, no on has even accused the parents of any wrong doing for Joran to defend them. Why is he defending them? It makes me strongly question, if perhaps his dad was involved. Was his subconscious mind affecting his speech here? It sure makes you wonder.

Another oddity is that his friend was such an incredible person. His friend was willing to step in and be a super hero to Joran. He was willing to take the body, live or dead, and dispose of it even though he supposedly had nothing to do with the situation. His friend was willing to risk his freedom, his reputation, his life just for Joran. This is exceptionally bizarre. Most people will help a friend, but not at the expense of their own life unless there is a payoff of sorts. But at Joran's young age, I am not sure he could provide a payoff big enough. It's highly questionable behavior.

Joran's friend was even concerned for Joran more than himself--telling Joran to go home.

Most friends don't want any involvement in illegal activities forget about disposing of a body. And then for this "friend" to be willing to dispose of the body without Joran is beyond strange. Normal human behavior, if you do find a friend to help you dispose of a body, is the expectation that you, too, will assist in the disposal. But this friend seems to be abnormal again. It's another red flag.

P: But where the f*** is she, Joran?


J: She'll never be found. Where exactly, I don't even know myself.
I believe Joran here. I believe he doesn't know exactly where Natalee ended up, or how it happened in the end. Someone shielded him--we can be certain about that, but who would be motivated to do that? A friend? Family?

Add this into the mix:

J: So I went and called the guy, not with my mobile, I walked over to the pay phone. I called him, and I told him, "Well... this is what happened. Please come help me. Please don't call the police." He says, "No, I won't call the police, I'm coming to you now." And then he arrived.


But she did not look normal, you know. He said. "This is not possible. You have to go home. I say "No, I can't ask you to take responsibility for this." He said, "You're going home. I'll arrange the rest." I went home then.
Several things about this statement are interesting. First, Joran's details are really sketchy. He doesn't really give any indication about what he said to the "friend" on the phone. Second, I have to wonder did Joran's friend tell him to go home as we see in the translation? Was it that direct, like a parent telling a child what to do? I'd need a translation expert here, but this raises my eyebrows again. Friends don't usually tell other friends what to do like this. This person was taking charge, telling him what to do. If it accurately translates, who would talk like that to Joran?

Also, was Joran's friend thinking in legal terms? Did he believe Joran needed to go home to have an alibi, to create an implausible time line for the disposal of the body? Who would think like this?

Joran then says that he had no problems sleeping that night. This is another huge red flag for me, and I think suggestive of who may be involved.

If you shared such a serious life-altering secret with someone, and you and him are the only two people to know this secret in the world, wouldn't you be paranoid for a while about the fact that someone might have heard something, your friend could talk, people could be on to you? Wouldn't it keep you up at night?

But strangely, Joran wasn't nervous. Who could give Joran such confidence in the situation that he could sleep at night?

I think the general gist of Joran's words are painting a picture here. Do you see what I see?

[Rob]

My personal belief is they are there because the FARC and Chavez are about to attempt something against Columbia.

Good Morning Rob,

Yes, the arrest of the second in command of FARC is the biggest catch ever made against that organization and Chavez is threatening war because of the national boundaries being crossed in attempting to hunt down and attack FARC.

And we know that Venezuela has become the "super highway" for all drugs coming out of South America now.  Certainly a lot of activity in that regard.

I do wonder, however, with the chance of actual combat breaking out involving Chavez army if any dignitaries would go to the region at all because of safety issues.

But it could be for top level negotiations to try to prevent the outbreak of actual combat, etc.  Chavez is still claiming to be negotiating for the release of more of the hostages FARC is still holding.

.

you mean death during shoot out right?

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps/idUSN0122624520080301

I believe the FARC and Chavez have now amasses enough illegal money through trafficking to attempt something.

[Nut44x4]

MF reporting that the people from AF2 partied at Señor Frogs and the Renaissance hotel ..lol

and Glenda bashes Kyle>>>>>>>>
Kyle is FOS

Dear Kyle,

Your efforts to recover Natalee are applauded, but I'm sorry to tell you that there was never a Crab/Fish Trap stolen. There is no indication that Natalee is in a Crab/Fish Trap or her remains could possibly be found off the coast of Aruba. Moss said you are looking for a needle in a haystack.

Feel free to search... But DON'T SAY THAT ARUBA DOESN'T HAVE the capabilities to search for Natalee. 10s of Millions have been spent searching for Natalee. Where was the Persistence when the Dutch was asked for their expertise in your home port Louisiana after Katrina?

Don't compare your misinformed efforts to what the Dutch is more than capable of doing if there were valid indications.

Regards from Aruba

[blah]

Tim Miller makes a phone call, 99.9% sure they find Natalee

Joran goes into hiding

Interesting pictures show up online

Af2 on the island

Persistance suddenly packs it up

Mos cancels TV show appearance


I dont know, seems that something could be going on.....

[klaasend]

http://bb.visitaruba.com/archive/index.php/t-2244-p-2.html

Posted by Luli on Monday, June 6th, 2005, 11:55 AM:

This was the content of the press conference...

-Yesterday at 10.30 the Interin Minister Rudy Croes decided that at 2.00 PM there will be a massive search on Aruba.

-They didn't talk about the investigation itself as they have no updates , they are still interogating the two men.

-Rob Smith (an american)chairperson of a foundation talked about how much money they spend to make sure the hotel area is a safe place. And stressed that Aruba is still a safe island- this could have happened anywhere or to anyone including locals. He also stated that he has been living on the island for 8 years now, he also has 2 teenage daughters. He stated that he always felt safe on the island.

-Trudy Hassell:
They are planning a national united effort to try to find Ms. Holloway. They are currently uniting several organisations that want to help, the marine corps, tje national red cross, park rangers, police and civilians. They are going to search systematically. They are asking for anyone who wants to help to come in contact with them. They think thousands of people will be helping with this search, but they have to wait to see how many people will show up. They are not telling where exactly they are going to search. They are meeting at the Sporthall in Sta Cruz. What kind of search? Two groups : one hitting the field together with the marine corps - the other group going house to house with a police officer asking people for information. They are going to be careful not to break any laws. The divers are working this moment at the coast. They have a plan, but don't want to elaborate on it.

-A member of the press also asked about the news that there are disturbing evidence that show that Natalee didn't run away. The question wasn't answered.

-They also talked about the last time a crime (assualt) happened with was against a tourist. Which was in the 90's. The crime was resolved.

-They talked about news anchors being very harsh when they don't know anything about the island. Talking about drugs and prostitution on the island and many things that are just not accurate.

-They talked about the different chatboards that are giving correct information about the island's safety( people who actually-repeatedly- visited the island) They are happy with that.

-The resort section (hotels) are also giving some employees the chance to help with the search.

-They have asked if the news achors have made research about the history of Aruba's tourism. They all gave a flat NO.

-What makes this case worse is that under Dutch Laws a person 18 years or older is considered an adult an therefore they cannot deny someone if they want to buy drinks.

-It hurts the Police that there are so many wrong accusations against them esp. in how they are working on the case. They stress that they have to treat this case differently because of the law. They don't consider Natalee as a minor, but as an adult.

Well this was it....I hope I gave a good summary of the press conference. I was typing and listening to the press conference at the same time trying not to miss a thing. (very hard to do..hehe)

Will keep you posted if I get new information.

Luli

[Pita]

mmmmmmmmm..............okay Buckeye, I do remember the 2006 bust re: Coast Guard, but I can't seem to find it. I think it was on Scared Monkeys front page at the time. Sorry I can't find it.

Here is a drug bust involving Dutch Marines with 700 pounds of cocaine but involved the use of official aircraft instead of naval vessels.

http://lmtonline.com/news/archive/071698/pagea11.pdf

I remember a big drug bust, too, and think it involved the watercraft instead of this one for aircraft but believe this one has the right timing.  Dunno.

.

International Narcotics Control Strategy Report - 2006

Aruba

snipped...

The Coast Guard of the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba (CGNAA) scored a number of impressive successes in 2005. The CGNAA was responsible for several seizures of cocaine, heroin, and marijuana. In July, the CGNAA, for the first time, detained a vessel in international waters and escorted it back to territorial waters where a search resulted in the seizure of approximately 800 kilograms of cocaine. In August, the CGNAA supported a controlled delivery in international waters where approximately 300 kilograms of cocaine were seized. The CGNAA’s three cutters, outfitted with rigid-hull inflatable boats (RHIBs) and new ‘super’ RHIBs designed especially for counternarcotics work in the Caribbean, demonstrated their utility against "go-fast" boats and other targets.
snipped...

The most impressive seizure during 2005 was a three-week surveillance operation on a shipping vessel which ultimately netted 2040 kilograms of cocaine. The operation was conducted as a joint effort between three countries including the United States.

http://www.state.gov/p/inl/rls/nrcrpt/2006/vol1/html/62108.htm

[blah]

My personal belief is they are there because the FARC and Chavez are about to attempt something against Columbia.

Good Morning Rob,

Yes, the arrest of the second in command of FARC is the biggest catch ever made against that organization and Chavez is threatening war because of the national boundaries being crossed in attempting to hunt down and attack FARC.

And we know that Venezuela has become the "super highway" for all drugs coming out of South America now.  Certainly a lot of activity in that regard.

I do wonder, however, with the chance of actual combat breaking out involving Chavez army if any dignitaries would go to the region at all because of safety issues.

But it could be for top level negotiations to try to prevent the outbreak of actual combat, etc.  Chavez is still claiming to be negotiating for the release of more of the hostages FARC is still holding.

.

I just dont see how any of this activity would result in Air Force 2 going to Aruba of all places.

Doesnt reallhy seem to make sense.   Then again, nothing that happens in Aruba ever makes sense so who knows...

[jackb]

Pictures are in from NYC! Check it! 

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2649.20

You all are sweet and "purdy."  Love yous.      blue

[kippy]

Good Morning Monkeys!  This is slightly off topic, but while looking at the Chicago pictures again, what is the meaning of the motorcycle shop?  I know the story of the guy "committing suicide" in the locked container found behind the shop...but how is this tied into the NH case?  Sorry if this connection was made long ago, I can't seem to find it.

[Rob]

MF reporting that the people from AF2 partied at Señor Frogs and the Renaissance hotel ..lol

and Glenda bashes Kyle>>>>>>>>
Kyle is FOS

Dear Kyle,

Your efforts to recover Natalee are applauded, but I'm sorry to tell you that there was never a Crab/Fish Trap stolen. There is no indication that Natalee is in a Crab/Fish Trap or her remains could possibly be found off the coast of Aruba. Moss said you are looking for a needle in a haystack.

Feel free to search... But DON'T SAY THAT ARUBA DOESN'T HAVE the capabilities to search for Natalee. 10s of Millions have been spent searching for Natalee. Where was the Persistence when the Dutch was asked for their expertise in your home port Louisiana after Katrina?

Don't compare your misinformed efforts to what the Dutch is more than capable of doing if there were valid indications.

Regards from Aruba

blow it out yer ass douchebag!

[blah]

MF reporting that the people from AF2 partied at Señor Frogs and the Renaissance hotel ..lol

and Glenda bashes Kyle>>>>>>>>
Kyle is FOS

Dear Kyle,

Your efforts to recover Natalee are applauded, but I'm sorry to tell you that there was never a Crab/Fish Trap stolen. There is no indication that Natalee is in a Crab/Fish Trap or her remains could possibly be found off the coast of Aruba. Moss said you are looking for a needle in a haystack.

Feel free to search... But DON'T SAY THAT ARUBA DOESN'T HAVE the capabilities to search for Natalee. 10s of Millions have been spent searching for Natalee. Where was the Persistence when the Dutch was asked for their expertise in your home port Louisiana after Katrina?

Don't compare your misinformed efforts to what the Dutch is more than capable of doing if there were valid indications.

Regards from Aruba

This statement tends to make her sound as she knows where the body is