Natalee Case Discussion #795 1/23/09 - 1/27/09

[jen3560]

Interesting verbiage PI used here..........

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2662.540

private eye
Scared Monkey

Offline

Posts: 1513

Re: Natalee Case Discussion #737 2/29 -
« Reply #559 on: March 01, 2008, 01:08:07 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope that the Persistence has not done all of this work and gone to all of this expense only to have gotten itself into an arrangement whereby Aruban divers are the ones who actually verify the targets and are the first ones to physically retrieve evidence, with no American divers physically with them. If so, all I can say is I just can't believe this has happened. But surely I am wrong.
--------------

And he made this post 17 days before Kyle started sharing things with us.

[jen3560]

texasmom - I just wanted to thank you for the nightly reminders of why we are all still here.

[jen3560]

Here are two questions I have regarding the purpose of the Persistence's voyage to Aruba.

If Jug really knew this endeavor's main purpose was oil related, what did the crew know?  What did the scientists on board know?

We've been told that the scientists did this for 20 - 50 cents on the dollar, donating their time more or less.

So if the scientists aboard did NOT know the main purpose here was oil related - how do they feel about having worked (mapped the ocean floor) for much less than their usual fees, all to further Luis Shaefer and John Silvetti's oil related purposes?

Kyle admitted to having been vicitm of financial difficulties over having done that.....

So - I'm very curious to know, if the folks who are saying Jug was aware this was OIL RELATED are correct................how does that sit with the folks who worked for pennies on the dollar?  How do they feel about having been duped by Shaefer and Silvetti.

And if what those folks are saying is NOT CORRECT - then why are they saying it?

[2NJSons_Mom]

Jen,

Was OE referred to FB by a member?  (this may have been posted, but my memory is not cooperating this morning) 

[jen3560]

No - he contacted us via email before the Persistence began its search - while it was still en route to Aruba.

We corresponded with him throughout via email.

He joined our forum after they all returned to the States, in order to share this information with us - to get it to the family, and into the "right hands".

Jen,

Was OE referred to FB by a member?  (this may have been posted, but my memory is not cooperating this morning) 

[jen3560]

#326 on: January 25, 2009, 09:54:21 PM  wreck

Why wouldn't Aruba at least purport to the world that DNA of SOMEONE was found? Why wouldn't they at least make up some story of a drug smuggler or something? They just pretended it didn't exist
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4434.320

HERE IS SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT
WOULD WE EVEN KNOW TODAY THAT CAGE HAD BEEN FOUND, IF IT WAS NOT FOR THE DATELINE PROGRAM HAVING SHOWN IT??

Robin H posted on a site that "....several weeks ago they had found something but it was not Natalee related...." (paraphrased)

Nobody ever expected dateline to show a picture of the cage because it was an active investigation. 

If it wasn't for this dateline production, would anyone even know that there had been a cage found?

Since Kyle had known the FBI results by the second week of February, Mos had probably known the results of the FBI report by the second week in February also.

Was he forced to have his press conference on the 26th because people now knew there was a cage found?

Did Robin put the  pictures they had been sent by the FBI in response to discussions that were going on because of the dateline program on the 22nd, and Moss press release?

It was these pictures in which people thought they saw the skull and shoe in and started creating all of the controversy........... 

Kyle saying there should never be a broadcast giving details about an active investigation and that dateline broke their word about what it would be about  

Reply #139 on: February 23, 2008, 07:03:29 PM  kyle

My main regret with the broadcast is John Silvetti not getting the credit he was due.  John's the owner of the Persistence, owner of Marine Surveys LLC, and the field project manager of the search. 
Regardless how good of a production it was - Generally speaking, there should never be a broadcast giving details about an active investigation.  When the investigation is complete and no longer potentially sensitive to either the case, victims family, or suspect (s), then sure... why not broadcast it.  It is irresponsible and potentially damaging to do what they did (broadcasting the show while the search is still active) and they broke their agreement with Tim and John to make this production

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2438.msg354749#msg354749 

Kyle saying that dateline pulled strings to be able to show the cage, something that never should have happened because it was part of an ongoing investigation

Reply #732 on: March 18, 2008, 11:47:36 AM  kyle

Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, Dateline and all comments in the Dateline special are pertaining to information available as of the Dec-30th dive, which was visual inspection only.  The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.  Further, the forensic testing wasn't completed until early February.  The FBI comment regarding the level of case significance was premature and I believe (IMO-but with good reason) it was induced by Tim Uelinger's (Dateline producer) pressuring of the FBI contact for immediate answers.  Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special.  This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366312#msg366312

Kyle saying he knew the results from the FBI by the second week of February-if he knew them you would have to assume Aruba also knew those results by this time

Reply #709 on: March 18, 2008, 11:11:50 AM

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:

The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366289#msg366289

[2NJSons_Mom]

Thank you.

No - he contacted us via email before the Persistence began its search - while it was still en route to Aruba.

We corresponded with him throughout via email.

He joined our forum after they all returned to the States, in order to share this information with us - to get it to the family, and into the "right hands".

Jen,

Was OE referred to FB by a member?  (this may have been posted, but my memory is not cooperating this morning) 

[Tamikosmom]

Interesting verbiage PI used here..........

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2662.540

private eye
Scared Monkey

Offline

Posts: 1513

Re: Natalee Case Discussion #737 2/29 -
« Reply #559 on: March 01, 2008, 01:08:07 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope that the Persistence has not done all of this work and gone to all of this expense only to have gotten itself into an arrangement whereby Aruban divers are the ones who actually verify the targets and are the first ones to physically retrieve evidence, with no American divers physically with them. If so, all I can say is I just can't believe this has happened. But surely I am wrong.
--------------

And he made this post 17 days before Kyle started sharing things with us.

Hi jen

Private Eye suspected early on that the crew that somethng was not right in regards to the chain of custody which was ... in actuality ... not a chain of custody at all.

Janet

+++++++


KYLE KINGMAN

MARCH, 2008

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2008, 08:21:47 PM »

We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care. Remember we are Americans working in Aruban waters, subject to their laws, invitation, and blessing. Our hands are tied for the most part. I personally was extremely uncomfortable with the chain of custody, being that we weren't a part of it, but I was powerless to do anything about it. The samples were photographed in detail by one Aruban diver and the other two investigated the contents of the trap, the dimensions, the rigging, and what surrounded the trap. From the video, it looked like they did a diligent and careful job with the samples and the underwater photography. I don't know who has these pictures, but I must assume ALE.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg366857;topicseen#msg366857


PRIVATE EYE

APRIL, 2008

private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #746 4/4
« Reply #499 on: April 09, 2008, 12:39:50 AM »

If I understood Kyle correctly, and that would be that the Arubans retrieved and possessed all finds, not sharing anything with the crew, then that effort was a waste of time and effort. The only thing it could have accomplished was to locate additional evidence for the Arubans to destroy. I am not sure if that was the protocol out of Aruba's waters though. The effort was superb, but the game was fixed.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2769.msg372245;topicseen#msg372245


private eye
 Discussion #742 3/10 -
« Reply #686 on: March 13, 2008, 06:38:07 PM »

... But sharing information with people who work for people who are directly orchestrating the cover up, Rudy, or the Dutch, is the most irresponsible investigating I can imagine. What kills this investigation is people having to come into it, wanting to apply basic investigatory protocols into place, and then having those channels sabotage the new evidence that the new players discover. Of course, as is happened everytime in this case, the new people eventually come to a point where the manipulation of the evidence is undeniable, but by then the fruits of their work are gone, and there is simply another member of the believers of the cover up group. What I pray that Kyle and the crew of the Persistence will determine, is that  regardless of how hard working the man that they are working with appears to work, his work belongs to Rudy, and Rudy belongs to the local dutch.

We are not hysterical, ignorant, paranoid people. We have seen the cover up in action, in broad daylight, with impunity, and if you disregard our warnings, you will become the next chump in a series of chumps, no matter how sophisticated your equipment, the level of your educational achievement, or the extent of your job skills and work history.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2689.msg364750#msg364750

[jen3560]

There were discussions here recently about the polygraph results from the witness.  Folks were commenting on Mos' statement that he was awaiting those results from Tim Miller, that Tim had yet to send them to Mos.

Why would Mos say that...............unless Jossy was incorrect?  According to Jossy, those results were sent to the NFI in Holland - and THAT is who should have sent them to Mos, NOT Tim Miller.

#256 on: September 16, 2008, 02:25:46 PM  angelalala from jossyKey witness reveals what happened 4:05 am at Monserat

Paulus and Joran were “looking” for something on the side of the road

ORANJESTAD(AAN):  Last week, DIARIO published the latest information regarding the key witness, who came forward to disclose everything he witnessed on May 2005 from his house, which is situated in the neighborhood of the Nacional Soccer field, close to the Monserat pond.

However the witness was afraid to come forward to the Police and local Prosecutor, because of the prejudice in the Prosecutor Office, which is alive and growing each day.
He did give a statement to the Prosecutor, but to certain extent. The more important and key details he revealed to the American investigators.

The American investigators listened very carefully to his story and immediately felt that he was telling the truth. They then asked him if he was willing to go to the States and pass a polygraph test.

The witness was tested by John S. Swartz, a renowned professional in this field, and the test revealed that he was telling the truth! Finally shedding some light on the disappearance of Natalee Holloway in 2005.

Last week, after months of following the new developments, DIARIO published the first part of the witness’ statement. This statement that was already in Prosecutor Mos’s hands.

DIARIO opted to wait until after the FBI sent the results of the polygraph test and their investigation to Holland, before publishing the second part of the statement, considering that Holland would send a copy to Aruba.
snippedThe 48 year old witness passed this test with flying colors, indicating that everything he saw that dawn, close to the Monserat pond, is true.

DIARIO presumes that the Prosecutor’s Office received this statement from Holland, and just in case they didn’t, they can read it today for free and begin to do their homework http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=3363.240http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=3363.msg455787#msg455787

[jen3560]

You're welcome 2NJ!

Janet - you are 100% correct.

There was reason Natalee's family was not completely trusting of the Persistence's endeavor.  In hindsight looking at PI's posts, that is evident.

[Tamikosmom]

Interesting verbiage PI used here..........

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2662.540

private eye
Scared Monkey

Offline

Posts: 1513

Re: Natalee Case Discussion #737 2/29 -
« Reply #559 on: March 01, 2008, 01:08:07 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope that the Persistence has not done all of this work and gone to all of this expense only to have gotten itself into an arrangement whereby Aruban divers are the ones who actually verify the targets and are the first ones to physically retrieve evidence, with no American divers physically with them. If so, all I can say is I just can't believe this has happened. But surely I am wrong.
--------------

And he made this post 17 days before Kyle started sharing things with us.

"The Arrangement" in Kyle Kingsman own words.  "The Arangement" in a nutshell.

Janet

+++++++

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

The Recovery

Kyle:  John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship.

Kyle:  I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further. After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.

Kyle:  The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat.

Kyle:  He (Tim Miller) stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

 Kyle:  They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th.

Kyle: John Silvetti told me today that he may be returning to Aruba very soon for a few days. (05/08/08)

Kyle: He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that. (06/10/08)

[Tamikosmom]

GOOD MORNING MONKEYS!!  GOOD MORNING ZOOKEEPERS!!

Janet
8:30 AM PT

[Tamikosmom]

Jen,

Was OE referred to FB by a member?  (this may have been posted, but my memory is not cooperating this morning) 

2NJSons_Mom ... there is an email contact on the Natalee's Freebirds blog.

Janet

[2NJSons_Mom]

#326 on: January 25, 2009, 09:54:21 PM  wreck

Why wouldn't Aruba at least purport to the world that DNA of SOMEONE was found? Why wouldn't they at least make up some story of a drug smuggler or something? They just pretended it didn't exist
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4434.320

HERE IS SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT
WOULD WE EVEN KNOW TODAY THAT CAGE HAD BEEN FOUND, IF IT WAS NOT FOR THE DATELINE PROGRAM HAVING SHOWN IT??

Robin H posted on a site that "....several weeks ago they had found something but it was not Natalee related...." (paraphrased)

Nobody ever expected dateline to show a picture of the cage because it was an active investigation. 

If it wasn't for this dateline production, would anyone even know that there had been a cage found?

Since Kyle had known the FBI results by the second week of February, Mos had probably known the results of the FBI report by the second week in February also.

Was he forced to have his press conference on the 26th because people now knew there was a cage found?

Did Robin put the  pictures they had been sent by the FBI in response to discussions that were going on because of the dateline program on the 22nd, and Moss press release?

It was these pictures in which people thought they saw the skull and shoe in and started creating all of the controversy........... 

Kyle saying there should never be a broadcast giving details about an active investigation and that dateline broke their word about what it would be about  

Reply #139 on: February 23, 2008, 07:03:29 PM  kyle

My main regret with the broadcast is John Silvetti not getting the credit he was due.  John's the owner of the Persistence, owner of Marine Surveys LLC, and the field project manager of the search. 
Regardless how good of a production it was - Generally speaking, there should never be a broadcast giving details about an active investigation.  When the investigation is complete and no longer potentially sensitive to either the case, victims family, or suspect (s), then sure... why not broadcast it.  It is irresponsible and potentially damaging to do what they did (broadcasting the show while the search is still active) and they broke their agreement with Tim and John to make this production

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2438.msg354749#msg354749 

Kyle saying that dateline pulled strings to be able to show the cage, something that never should have happened because it was part of an ongoing investigation

Reply #732 on: March 18, 2008, 11:47:36 AM  kyle

Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, Dateline and all comments in the Dateline special are pertaining to information available as of the Dec-30th dive, which was visual inspection only.  The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.  Further, the forensic testing wasn't completed until early February.  The FBI comment regarding the level of case significance was premature and I believe (IMO-but with good reason) it was induced by Tim Uelinger's (Dateline producer) pressuring of the FBI contact for immediate answers.  Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special.  This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366312#msg366312

Kyle saying he knew the results from the FBI by the second week of February-if he knew them you would have to assume Aruba also knew those results by this time

Reply #709 on: March 18, 2008, 11:11:50 AM

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:

The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366289#msg366289

I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the Dateline agreement (broken or not) and the timing of their presence on the Persistence and the 'find' Christmas, 2007.  Why proceed with the look/see of the cage if protection of potential evidence in an active investigation is of the utmost?  Just a tad contradictory in my mind....

[2NJSons_Mom]

Jen,

Was OE referred to FB by a member?  (this may have been posted, but my memory is not cooperating this morning) 

2NJSons_Mom ... there is an email contact on the Natalee's Freebirds blog.

Janet

Thanks, Janet.  I know that, now that I've revisited their website.  (should have done so before I asked...)

[Keepthefaith]

2nj I'm not very good at bringing pictures over but there is a picture of Ozzy Osborne with our beloved Frog.Be great to bring it over...Now we all know where Kermit has been.TIA to whomever brings it over.

http://www.comcast.net/slideshow/music-funnyfaces/4/

[hotping]

Ozzie is choking Kermit....This is not Good!   

[2NJSons_Mom]

Ozzie is choking Kermit....This is not Good!   

Kermit can flip Ozzie in a blink of an eye.   

[Keepthefaith]

Ozzie is choking Kermit....This is not Good!   

Thought it was a great picture even though it was taken quite some time ago.Kermit is quite the socialite.From president's,to rock star's,TV show's.Kermit is livin the life!

[Tamikosmom]

2nj I'm not very good at bringing pictures over but there is a picture of Ozzy Osborne with our beloved Frog.Be great to bring it over...Now we all know where Kermit has been.TIA to whomever brings it over.

http://www.comcast.net/slideshow/music-funnyfaces/4/

Keepthefaith ... I love your new "extreme makeover" but ... please let Kermit go.  The forum desperately desires updates and ... maybe a little sweetness is where it is at.

 

Good Morning

Janet
9:20 AM PT