Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 - 12/31/08

[ldstlou]

From where i sit in Seattle ldstlou it seems from my perspective your only problem is the disemination of the information to people other then the Freebirds!Why?And do correct me if i'm wrong.

Part of it yes. Because my understanding is that there was an agreement to keep the info confidential..and that bothers me.

But the other part is that Kyle wasn't hiding anything that I can see. He was discussing his concerns openly in that forum. Concerns about the Arubans not the members of the Persitence. So why degrade and bastardize the hard work of those members who went out looking for Natalee.

I think you may have missed the point entirely.

I am the one who wrote the TOS at Natalee's Freebirds.  It is those TOS that every member has to abide by.  There was no confidentiality agreement by ANY member that supercedes the TOS of the forum.  The TOS provide for that eventuality.

Please stop concerning yourself with some "confidentiality agreement" that never existed in the first place.

The real truth of the matter is - it was all about money.  By Freebirds going public with the information Kyle provided, that would have squelched the deal Kyle told us Shaefer made for a documentary.

That's it.  That's the sum total of it.

Kermit violated no TOS, as he posted here after he resigned from the forum.  I deactivated his account at Freebirds after he did so.  Does that make you feel better?

Now - can we PLEASE get back to the ACTUAL issue here?

What did Aruba do with those remains, and why did they send the FBI some fraudulent piece of material to test?

Why did it take Dolph Richardson two weeks after receiving the items personally, to hand over lord only knows what to the FBI for testing?

And why did every single member aboard the Persistence look the other way?

You still didn't answer my question. Do the CURRENT Freebirds endorse your letter that was posted "by the Freebirds".           

[Kermit]

From where i sit in Seattle ldstlou it seems from my perspective your only problem is the disemination of the information to people other then the Freebirds!Why?And do correct me if i'm wrong.

Part of it yes. Because my understanding is that there was an agreement to keep the info confidential..and that bothers me.

But the other part is that Kyle wasn't hiding anything that I can see. He was discussing his concerns openly in that forum. Concerns about the Arubans not the members of the Persitence. So why degrade and bastardize the hard work of those members who went out looking for Natalee.

Did Kermit not give Kyle every opportunity to turn everything he had,as well as knew over to the Holloway's as well as the FBI?Did he do it?From what i've read.NO..Correct me if i'm wrong..

You are not wrong.
In fact, I have proof of permission from the family.

the e-mail you posted?

I not only have that, but I have another one from another member of the family hon.
That's why I don't really say mean and attackative things to you as you have towards me, because I know you don't know any better.

[truthseeker2]

No, Janet, it hasn't.  We still have no idea what was in that trap.  That has been my perspective from the very beginning.  That has not changed.  The idea that I like coming to SM to see the same thing posted over and over and over has not changed either.  I have the same goal as every other person who posts at this site.  I just do not get the same level respect.  And...heaven forbid you decide to make me your next target. Why...I shake in my boots.  But, I guess that is the type of thing that makes it all go 'round for some.

Me, as I have stated before, I am an analyst...and a damn good one.  I still do not see any facts indicating there were human remains in that trap.  Are we to assume that as fact because Kyle says so?  From what I can tell from most of the posts here lately...he is not to be believed.  Which is it?  Is he trutworthy or not?  So for me, until it is proven that human remains were found and that those human remains were Natalee's I will keep looking for answers.

Also, as an analyst, I fully understand contract work and the use/non-use of intellectual property.  Kyle may have disseminated that information within violation of a contract, and therefore his azz would be on the line.  If he is wrong, and he may be wrong, he may never be able to work again in his current capacity.  For whatever reason, he chose to do what he did.  I was not there, so I cannot and do not judge his actions. 

I accept the information regading the contents of the trap for what it is...his opinion...nothing more.  Calling him out on a forum day in and day out has not changed any of the known facts about Natalee.  It's all supposition.  I hope that someone has the where with all to get to the bottom of it, like our FBI.  But, they have had this information for a while now and we have not heard a word from them as to any future investigation.  We are only hearing a request for further investigations from the Netherlands.

And I also agree with whoever posted last night....trying to appeal to someone's faith is a personal thing...people can do that in open forums if they like.  It's not something I would do.

Back to lurking and researching......

I a 98% agree !! 

However it`s my opinion to that this ARE human remains(not the thing that looked like a skull)


[/quote]

Maybe.  Have you been able to put that to scale with the 'skull'?  That would be interesting to see.

[ldstlou]

From where i sit in Seattle ldstlou it seems from my perspective your only problem is the disemination of the information to people other then the Freebirds!Why?And do correct me if i'm wrong.

Part of it yes. Because my understanding is that there was an agreement to keep the info confidential..and that bothers me.

But the other part is that Kyle wasn't hiding anything that I can see. He was discussing his concerns openly in that forum. Concerns about the Arubans not the members of the Persitence. So why degrade and bastardize the hard work of those members who went out looking for Natalee.

Did Kermit not give Kyle every opportunity to turn everything he had,as well as knew over to the Holloway's as well as the FBI?Did he do it?From what i've read.NO..Correct me if i'm wrong..

You are not wrong.
In fact, I have proof of permission from the family.

the e-mail you posted?

I not only have that, but I have another one from another member of the family hon.
That's why I don't really say mean and attackative things to you as you have towards me, because I know you don't know any better.

Do the CURRENT Freebirds agree with your actions and statements?

[Kermit]

Oh I see what Idstlou is doing.

Gee, in order to do that, why we might have to expose her buddy.

Let me think on it. Better yet, let me sleep on it.

And then I might just expose more of why Isdstlou is trying to protect Kyle.

[Keepthefaith]

Ldstlou.....


Again ldstlou.Did Kyle turn over everything he had pertaining to Natalee's search in Due diligence to the family as well as the FBI?Yes or No?

[jen3560]

I will ask again...do the current Freebirds endorse your actions or views?

What, exactly, are you trying to achieve here by attacking the messenger instead of focusing on the issue?

There were no lies posted here by Kermit.  None.  They were Kyle's own words.

His words and those of Tim Miller's, along with the ROV footage point to the fact there were human remains in that fish cage.

What happened to them?

[texasmom]

ldstlou,
Please step back, read what has been said; and review what you are saying.  Please.....and remember what this is all about.  I just think you've lost focus, that's all.

[Kermit]

ldstlou - I know you are only trying to stand up and protect Kyle and the crew of the Persistence against those who may have questions regarding some of the things Kyle has said, etc.

You are standing up for what you believe in and that is to be commended, however, what if you are wrong?  I'm not saying it's so but what if you and Natalee's family are being lied to?

When things don't seem right, we take a closer look.   Is that so wrong?

Hypothetical:

One of Joran's friends is posting in a private invite only forum where the members sign a confidentiality agreement not to copy and paste info posted in the forum on the outside.  This friend tells of information that would solve the case and put Joran in jail for the rest of his life.  Do you tell others about this or do you honor the confidentiality agreement?

In the example above would a confidentiality agreement make any difference to you?  It would not to me.

So the FBI were informed, JQK was informed, Beth was informed according to Kermit. I don't see them going after Kyle...so why is Kermit here on SM going after Kyle and the crew of the Persistence?

Kermit informed Beth. Yes.
Kermit is NOT going after Kyle.
Kermit posted the truth to expose the Aruba cover-up

Kermit...come on. IF the Arubans walked away with Natalee...it was Kyle who exposed it not you.

How can Kyle expose something he didn't turn over to the proper authorities,and or family in due diligence????

ummmm...I'll say it again...kermit copied and posted Kyle's info...she reiterated what he said...so where's the cover-up if he said it.

John Silvetti had ONLY Aruban divers at the cage site to retrieve the evidence.
Now why is that Idstlou?

[ldstlou]

Oh I see what Idstlou is doing.

Gee, in order to do that, why we might have to expose her buddy.

Let me think on it. Better yet, let me sleep on it.

And then I might just expose more of why Isdstlou is trying to protect Kyle.

oh boy...can't wait to see this one. You still haven't answered if the CURRENT members of the Freebirds agree with your actions and opinions.

[ldstlou]

ldstlou - I know you are only trying to stand up and protect Kyle and the crew of the Persistence against those who may have questions regarding some of the things Kyle has said, etc.

You are standing up for what you believe in and that is to be commended, however, what if you are wrong?  I'm not saying it's so but what if you and Natalee's family are being lied to?

When things don't seem right, we take a closer look.   Is that so wrong?

Hypothetical:

One of Joran's friends is posting in a private invite only forum where the members sign a confidentiality agreement not to copy and paste info posted in the forum on the outside.  This friend tells of information that would solve the case and put Joran in jail for the rest of his life.  Do you tell others about this or do you honor the confidentiality agreement?

In the example above would a confidentiality agreement make any difference to you?  It would not to me.

So the FBI were informed, JQK was informed, Beth was informed according to Kermit. I don't see them going after Kyle...so why is Kermit here on SM going after Kyle and the crew of the Persistence?

Kermit informed Beth. Yes.
Kermit is NOT going after Kyle.
Kermit posted the truth to expose the Aruba cover-up

Kermit...come on. IF the Arubans walked away with Natalee...it was Kyle who exposed it not you.

How can Kyle expose something he didn't turn over to the proper authorities,and or family in due diligence????

ummmm...I'll say it again...kermit copied and posted Kyle's info...she reiterated what he said...so where's the cover-up if he said it.

John Silvetti had ONLY Aruban divers at the cage site to retrieve the evidence.
Now why is that Idstlou?

My understanding Kermit is they had no choice.

[Tamikosmom]

ldstlou - I know you are only trying to stand up and protect Kyle and the crew of the Persistence against those who may have questions regarding some of the things Kyle has said, etc.

You are standing up for what you believe in and that is to be commended, however, what if you are wrong?  I'm not saying it's so but what if you and Natalee's family are being lied to?

When things don't seem right, we take a closer look.   Is that so wrong?

Hypothetical:

One of Joran's friends is posting in a private invite only forum where the members sign a confidentiality agreement not to copy and paste info posted in the forum on the outside.  This friend tells of information that would solve the case and put Joran in jail for the rest of his life.  Do you tell others about this or do you honor the confidentiality agreement?

In the example above would a confidentiality agreement make any difference to you?  It would not to me.

So the FBI were informed, JQK was informed, Beth was informed according to Kermit. I don't see them going after Kyle...so why is Kermit here on SM going after Kyle and the crew of the Persistence?

Kermit informed Beth. Yes.
Kermit is NOT going after Kyle.
Kermit posted the truth to expose the Aruba cover-up

Kermit...come on. IF the Arubans walked away with Natalee...it was Kyle who exposed it not you.

How can Kyle expose something he didn't turn over to the proper authorities,and or family in due diligence????

Kyle Kingman did not expose the hoax encompassing the Persistence endeavor.

Rather than immediately sharing with the family and reporting to the FBI his observations and concerns ...  when Kyle returned to the United States ... he shared on a private forum and ... he attempted to make deals with major networks.

Lou ... it was Kermit who exposed the hoax encompassing the Persistence endeavor ... it was the Natalee's Freebirds who exposed the hoax encompassing the Persistence endeavor.

.... AND THE EXPOSURE HAS NOT MADE KYLE KINGMAN A HAPPY CAMPER.

Janet

[bastibro]

Klaas

I messed up again.  Please edit my post 490.

Hey ... no Monkey or Freebird was on that ship.

My New Year's resolution is to never never bother you again in regards to editing my posts.  The way I look at it ... I still have a couple of days of grace.

 

Thanks

Janet

Grace is neverending

[jen3560]

You still didn't answer my question. Do the CURRENT Freebirds endorse your letter that was posted "by the Freebirds".           

Let's first get this technically correct.  My letter was posted by Klaas.  Not "by the Freebirds".  My letter was signed by me - not "by the Freebirds".

Now that's straight -
One member didn't want the group's name dragged through all of this by YOU.

Other than that - no problems.

Can you move on now?

[ldstlou]

I will ask again...do the current Freebirds endorse your actions or views?

What, exactly, are you trying to achieve here by attacking the messenger instead of focusing on the issue?

There were no lies posted here by Kermit.  None.  They were Kyle's own words.

His words and those of Tim Miller's, along with the ROV footage point to the fact there were human remains in that fish cage.

What happened to them?

No one knows what was in there. That was the whole point. The Arubas took off with the evidence. So why blame the members of the Persitence for that?

And why won't you answer my question. Your letter was posted as a letter from the Freebirds. I respect the Freebirds, I want to know if they endorse your letter...what is the big deal in answering that?

[jen3560]

Thank you for the warm welcome monkeys!

You are all caring and dedicated people - that shows by your continued presence here.

[ldstlou]

You still didn't answer my question. Do the CURRENT Freebirds endorse your letter that was posted "by the Freebirds".           

Let's first get this technically correct.  My letter was posted by Klaas.  Not "by the Freebirds".  My letter was signed by me - not "by the Freebirds".

Now that's straight -
One member didn't want the group's name dragged through all of this by YOU.

Other than that - no problems.

Can you move on now?

Your letter was posted with a heading that said letter from the Freebirds. I am just asking if they endorsed your letter.

[ldstlou]

You still didn't answer my question. Do the CURRENT Freebirds endorse your letter that was posted "by the Freebirds".           

Let's first get this technically correct.  My letter was posted by Klaas.  Not "by the Freebirds".  My letter was signed by me - not "by the Freebirds".

Now that's straight -
One member didn't want the group's name dragged through all of this by YOU.

Other than that - no problems.

Can you move on now?

Your letter was posted with a heading that said letter from the Freebirds. I am just asking if they endorsed your letter.

Sent to me by Natalee's Freebirds:

Please feel free (if you'd like) to post this at your board.
 
During the journey of the Persistence to Aruba, Kyle reached out and emailed with us.  During that time, one of the questions posed to him was regarding protocol if/when Natalee's remains were found.
 
Kyle's response was that he was unsure, but felt that would be settled before the search began.
 
The cautions were given to him about the lack of integrity on the part of Aruba's law enforcement, prosecutor's office, and its judiciary.
 
Contact with Kyle continued throughout the duration of the search by the Persistence.
 
Once back home, Kyle asked us for our help.  He was very concerned about the activities that transpired during their search - specifically surrounding the find of the fishing cage and its contents.  Kyle wanted our help in presenting this information in a factual way, to then be given to Natalee's family. 
 
This was March 18, 2008.  At that time, Kyle assured us he had just recently sent the images from the Dec 30th and Jan 7th dives to the FBI, but had never received a response from them.
 
We later found that to be false.
 
Also at that time, Beth's brother saw the images Kyle had shared with us - but none of the detail he shared later.

We compiled the images Kyle presented us, along with his opinions and the facts surrounding the sequence of events regarding that fishing cage.  Kyle stated he would be getting in touch with Beth Holloway.
 
We later found out that never happened.

At this time, Kyle shared with us the broadcast networks he had approached in February, in an attempt to sell these images to the highest bidder.
 
This didn't concern us greatly at that time - as we were under the impression US law enforcement and Natalee's family had already been made aware of their find.
 
Approximately May 2008 Kyle began dodging questions for details (we had asked for names of Aruban police and divers to be included in our documentation of these events), hedging on moving forward with this, and then he completely disappeared from our board.
 
During that time, we learned Kyle had never contacted Beth, or Dave, or the FBI with this information.
 
We put our original plan into motion - that of presenting this information in a clear and concise manner, and we sent it to Beth Holloway.
 
Beth was disturbed, needed time to digest the information, and wanted to share it with someone she trusts.
 
When Tim Miller was returning to Aruba this past fall, Beth gave us permission to release this information publicly.
 
At that point, we gave it to John Kelly, Carmen Adams with the FBI, and got it ready for public consumption.
 
The next step was to publish this information at our blog.
 
One of our members felt we were betraying Kyle in doing so, contacted him, and he re-surfaced at our site with threats of litigation against us - stating this was his "intellectual property" and we could not use it.
 
That of course concerned us greatly - as none of us could afford to be sued.
 
He also stated at that time, Luis Shaefer had just recently sold the rights of the video of these images to a broadcast company for the purposes of a documentary.
 
We contacted legal counsel and were advised to keep our distance from any Persistence crew member, in the face of potential obstruction/accessory charges.
 
At this point, one of our members decided to brace for the possibility of civil litigation, resigned from our membership to protect it from same, and posted what he knows to be factual at SM.
 
Kyle did tell us human remains were found in that fish cage.
 
Kyle did tell us about John Silvetti's intent to open an office on the island of Aruba, to enable him ease in conducting business in South America, and Aruba.
 
Kyle also told us of John's absolute refusal to give that fish cage and its contents any credence - before even it was inspected on Jan 7th.
 
Kyle told us in no uncertain terms that Tim Miller and Dateline were abruptly removed from the Persistence on Dec 30, resulting in only Persistence crew being aboard between that date and the Jan 7 dive of the Arubans.
 
Nothing that was posted at SM by kermit was incorrect, out of context, or in any way false.
 
Regards,
 
Former Natalee's Freebirds Administrator
Natalee and her family deserve justice - and we will not let up until they have it!

[Kermit]

Oh I see what Idstlou is doing.

Gee, in order to do that, why we might have to expose her buddy.

Let me think on it. Better yet, let me sleep on it.

And then I might just expose more of why Isdstlou is trying to protect Kyle.

oh boy...can't wait to see this one. You still haven't answered if the CURRENT members of the Freebirds agree with your actions and opinions.

I resigned.

But I know who is telling you what.
So be sure, I'll sleep on it and I might just expose that on New Years eve.

[Keepthefaith]

Ldstlou.....


Again ldstlou.Did Kyle turn over everything he had pertaining to Natalee's search in Due diligence to the family as well as the FBI?Yes or No?

Again.Ldstlou.Don't know if you're seeing it or posting to fast??