Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 - 12/31/08

[wingnut]

Two points:

1) Kyle repeatedly referred to the cage contents as "human remains".  Over and over and over.  I believe that he was trained to know what he was looking at.

2) I think most, if not all, here would agree that Aruba spent much money, time and effort to cover up the death of an American tourist.  I do not put anything past them as far as attempting to clean it up and minimize future damage to their tourism/economy - even moving evidence if necessary.  And THEY are the ones who have custody/control of the trap contents!

Do you really believe that they collected and placed HERMIT CRAB SHELLS in those plastic bags?  Sheesh.

[truthseeker2]

That could be.  It's just hard to tell from this pic.  I still want to know why no one, even Tim Miller and Dateline, did not question the thumbs down if this image was taken 60 seconds after that thumbs down.  I think that is one of the reasons why I have been skeptical about what we are seeing with that pic.

This may have already been answered (I'm just trying to catch up with the thread) Kyle stated two things about that "thumbs down" indication by Tim Trahan.

1 - There was no pre-determined signal for an uncertain sighting

2 - A large skate had swum by right before that, disturbed the silt from the ocean floor, and affected visibility.

Tim Miller - well, he told Dateline (after he had been booted from the boat) that it looks like a skull - still looks like a skull.

Looks like a skull and is a skull are not the same thing.  Tim Miller is a hero and I respect him in everyway.  But, from a logical stand point I still am not certain that was a skull in that trap.  Maybe it was...but the information available today does not validate that.

Still to the point, no one appears to have openly questioned the thumbs down at 15:40 on 12/30/07 when the image we are seeing would have been on the monitor.  Why?  (The Why? is rhetorical for this forum.  I know we weren't there so the answer to that would not be available)  We have all kinds of people looking at that image saying "That's a skull".  Yet no one looking at the monitor ever seems to say "Hey, what do mean thumbs down?  I see a skull or something that looks like a skull right there in front of your faces!  Why the thumbs down?"  Is there any evidence that anyone did or said anything like that at 15:40 on 12/30/07?  If so, I have not seen or heard it.  And that is one reason why I have not completely committed to idea that a skull was recovered from that trap.

Sorry if this sounds disrespectful.  I do not mean it that way.  I just don't know any other way to state my opinion on this. 

[klaasend]

ldstlou - I have no idea if anyone conspired with anyone.  I do find Kyle's posts at Freebirds WRONG and the fact they didn't send the FBI and the family evidence KYLE thought might be human remains when they said they would was WRONG of Kyle and wrong of Silvetti.

Note that I'm leaving Capslock out of this because one issue has nothing to do with the other in this instance.  I'm simply talking about what Kyle and Silvetti failed to do based upon Kyle's own words.  Whether Kyle thought he was speaking in a private forum or not doesn't matter to me at this point, they are his words.  He is welcome to refute or rebutt those words at any time right here in the OPEN SM forum. 

why would he come here Klaas? he has told me via phone calls and e-mail he turned everything over to the FBI right away and told Jug the same in an e-mail. Jug told me when I asked and re-asked based on Monkey's questions if they received the photos and he said yes. Still no one believes him. Jug stated twice they don't believe Kyle or John were involved in a conspiracy, and still you don't believe him. Coming here would only allow bashing because minds are made up. What is the point?

If there was no evidence in the cage...ie bones, then logically there was no conspiracy to cover up the evidence.

I'm getting a little tired of the "hit and runs".

1.  WHEN did Jug and BETH get ALL of the photos and information?
2.  Jug doesn't believe that Kyle and John were involved in a conspiracy but Jug could be wrong.  I couldn't believe that Dave Holloway could be friends with MIP6 or that Robin would be posting along side with people that have said the most horrible things about Beth and Dave either. 
3.  KYLE himself, in his own words and by superimposing Natalee's photo in the cage DID think there were human remains in the cage.  Tim Miller did think there were human remains in the cage.  Kyle and Tim could be wrong but did KYLE or Silvetti notify the FBI and the family in a timely manner or did they sit on what they thought they had?

[wingnut]

why would he come here Klaas? he has told me via phone calls and e-mail he turned everything over to the FBI right away and told Jug the same in an e-mail. Jug told me when I asked and re-asked based on Monkey's questions if they received the photos and he said yes. Still no one believes him. Jug stated twice they don't believe Kyle or John were involved in a conspiracy, and still you don't believe him. Coming here would only allow bashing because minds are made up. What is the point?

If there was no evidence in the cage...ie bones, then logically there was no conspiracy to cover up the evidence.

WHEN did he receive the photos?

FROM WHOM did he receive them?

Unanswered questions.  We KNOW Jug got them.  We also KNOW it wasn't Kyle who sent them.

[truthseeker2]

Need to run out for a while this morning. Once I return, I will be here for the duration of the day/evening/night. Later.........   

Thank God, because I'm real sick and going to the Dr's at 10:00 and will be in bed for the rest of the day. Eyes hurt too , so it's hard to read. Sorry Guys I'm not much help this week.

I hope you feel better soon!!!

[ldstlou]

ldstlou - I have no idea if anyone conspired with anyone.  I do find Kyle's posts at Freebirds WRONG and the fact they didn't send the FBI and the family evidence KYLE thought might be human remains when they said they would was WRONG of Kyle and wrong of Silvetti.

Note that I'm leaving Capslock out of this because one issue has nothing to do with the other in this instance.  I'm simply talking about what Kyle and Silvetti failed to do based upon Kyle's own words.  Whether Kyle thought he was speaking in a private forum or not doesn't matter to me at this point, they are his words.  He is welcome to refute or rebutt those words at any time right here in the OPEN SM forum. 

why would he come here Klaas? he has told me via phone calls and e-mail he turned everything over to the FBI right away and told Jug the same in an e-mail. Jug told me when I asked and re-asked based on Monkey's questions if they received the photos and he said yes. Still no one believes him. Jug stated twice they don't believe Kyle or John were involved in a conspiracy, and still you don't believe him. Coming here would only allow bashing because minds are made up. What is the point?

If there was no evidence in the cage...ie bones, then logically there was no conspiracy to cover up the evidence.

I'm getting a little tired of the "hit and runs".

1.  WHEN did Jug and BETH get ALL of the photos and information?
2.  Jug doesn't believe that Kyle and John were involved in a conspiracy but Jug could be wrong.  I couldn't believe that Dave Holloway could be friends with MIP6 or that Robin would be posting along side with people that have said the most horrible things about Beth and Dave either. 
3.  KYLE himself, in his own words and by superimposing Natalee's photo in the cage DID think there were human remains in the cage.  Tim Miller did think there were human remains in the cage.  Kyle and Tim could be wrong but did KYLE or Silvetti notify the FBI and the family in a timely manner or did they sit on what they thought they had?

at the urging of Snoopy I got on here one evening and answered all of these questions. I am not going to do it again and again...what is the point?
And as far as Jug being wrong, I choose Jug's opinion over Kermit, just who I respect and believe more. He has every post she made, I copied and pasted them to him, hasn't changed his opinion.

[klaasend]

ldstlou - I have no idea if anyone conspired with anyone.  I do find Kyle's posts at Freebirds WRONG and the fact they didn't send the FBI and the family evidence KYLE thought might be human remains when they said they would was WRONG of Kyle and wrong of Silvetti.

Note that I'm leaving Capslock out of this because one issue has nothing to do with the other in this instance.  I'm simply talking about what Kyle and Silvetti failed to do based upon Kyle's own words.  Whether Kyle thought he was speaking in a private forum or not doesn't matter to me at this point, they are his words.  He is welcome to refute or rebutt those words at any time right here in the OPEN SM forum. 

why would he come here Klaas? he has told me via phone calls and e-mail he turned everything over to the FBI right away and told Jug the same in an e-mail. Jug told me when I asked and re-asked based on Monkey's questions if they received the photos and he said yes. Still no one believes him. Jug stated twice they don't believe Kyle or John were involved in a conspiracy, and still you don't believe him. Coming here would only allow bashing because minds are made up. What is the point?

If there was no evidence in the cage...ie bones, then logically there was no conspiracy to cover up the evidence.

I'm getting a little tired of the "hit and runs".

1.  WHEN did Jug and BETH get ALL of the photos and information?
2.  Jug doesn't believe that Kyle and John were involved in a conspiracy but Jug could be wrong.  I couldn't believe that Dave Holloway could be friends with MIP6 or that Robin would be posting along side with people that have said the most horrible things about Beth and Dave either. 
3.  KYLE himself, in his own words and by superimposing Natalee's photo in the cage DID think there were human remains in the cage.  Tim Miller did think there were human remains in the cage.  Kyle and Tim could be wrong but did KYLE or Silvetti notify the FBI and the family in a timely manner or did they sit on what they thought they had?

at the urging of Snoopy I got on here one evening and answered all of these questions. I am not going to do it again and again...what is the point?
And as far as Jug being wrong, I choose Jug's opinion over Kermit, just who I respect and believe more. He has every post she made, I copied and pasted them to him, hasn't changed his opinion.

You answered WHEN Jug got the photos?  Do you remember what day or do I have to search all of your posts.  It's not a matter of trusting Jug over Kermit, of course you would trust Jug.  It's a matter of people fooling Jug, Beth, Dave and Robin.

[SunnyinTX]

I don't post on the Natalee thread anymore because I do not feel I have anything to offer....however I do read and try to keep up, except for the past month or so... this morning I had  time to get caught up and now I wish I didn't.  I think I know why many of us no longer post here. MY GOD!  I have never seen monkeys at each others throat like this. I don't give a damn who you are...or how close you feel you are to 'the family' if you think the family is going to tell you everything...get REAL!!  You post on a public forum...........the family is not stupid. I am really sickened to read a lot of what is on here.....just because someone, 'in the know' tells you something doesn't mean it is TRUE or factual. I am not taking sides with anyone...........but I sure wish some of you would step back....go back and read what you write..............when I read a post that starts out with 'you people' I immediately think Oh F..here we go again!!!  OK...back to lurking........Happy New Year to everyone. Klaas  and Mods...Bless your hearts

[ldstlou]

ldstlou - I have no idea if anyone conspired with anyone.  I do find Kyle's posts at Freebirds WRONG and the fact they didn't send the FBI and the family evidence KYLE thought might be human remains when they said they would was WRONG of Kyle and wrong of Silvetti.

Note that I'm leaving Capslock out of this because one issue has nothing to do with the other in this instance.  I'm simply talking about what Kyle and Silvetti failed to do based upon Kyle's own words.  Whether Kyle thought he was speaking in a private forum or not doesn't matter to me at this point, they are his words.  He is welcome to refute or rebutt those words at any time right here in the OPEN SM forum. 

why would he come here Klaas? he has told me via phone calls and e-mail he turned everything over to the FBI right away and told Jug the same in an e-mail. Jug told me when I asked and re-asked based on Monkey's questions if they received the photos and he said yes. Still no one believes him. Jug stated twice they don't believe Kyle or John were involved in a conspiracy, and still you don't believe him. Coming here would only allow bashing because minds are made up. What is the point?

If there was no evidence in the cage...ie bones, then logically there was no conspiracy to cover up the evidence.

I'm getting a little tired of the "hit and runs".

1.  WHEN did Jug and BETH get ALL of the photos and information?
2.  Jug doesn't believe that Kyle and John were involved in a conspiracy but Jug could be wrong.  I couldn't believe that Dave Holloway could be friends with MIP6 or that Robin would be posting along side with people that have said the most horrible things about Beth and Dave either. 
3.  KYLE himself, in his own words and by superimposing Natalee's photo in the cage DID think there were human remains in the cage.  Tim Miller did think there were human remains in the cage.  Kyle and Tim could be wrong but did KYLE or Silvetti notify the FBI and the family in a timely manner or did they sit on what they thought they had?

at the urging of Snoopy I got on here one evening and answered all of these questions. I am not going to do it again and again...what is the point?
And as far as Jug being wrong, I choose Jug's opinion over Kermit, just who I respect and believe more. He has every post she made, I copied and pasted them to him, hasn't changed his opinion.

You answered WHEN Jug got the photos?  Do you remember what day or do I have to search all of your posts.  It's not a matter of trusting Jug over Kermit, of course you would trust Jug.  It's a matter of people fooling Jug, Beth, Dave and Robin.

well like I said, I have copied and posted to Jug all of Kermits "evidence" and it hasn't changed his opinion, so I am assuming he does not feel he was duped my Kyle or the members of the persistence.

[Tamikosmom]

Unless Caps comes on SM and responds to the posts that questions his/her motives, I'll tend to believe the posts can not be countered by Caps....Same as I believe Kyle won't come back to counter posts negative to him.

I wanted to believe Caps...but without hearing from him and with what Kermit has posted. I lean towards Caps being a diversion, whether intentional or not (he may have been led unwillingly-I don't know).

I just can't buy into the reasoning put forth by some that Caps/kyle won't post again on SM because they somehow feel that they have been wronged We are here to search for Justice for Natalee....I say to Caps/Kyle.... defend your positions or be regarded as untrustworthy....what do you have to hide if you have truth on your side? I want to believe...give me reasons to believe...others trying to defend you just don't cut it with me...

From the getgo I was not a believer in CAPS.

At the beginning of July ... I left the Natalee Holloway forum for five months.

My belief that CAPS cryptic posts were a distraction from the truth and ... my heartfelt concern regarding the Persistence/ALE connection ... met with a lot of opposition.

I was a lonely Monkey.

Inconsistencies posted by Kyle regarding the Persistence undertaking were justified.  Changing theories and flawed research posted by CAPS were justified.

Hey ... Tamikosmom's theories are constantly changing.  Tamikosmom's research is often flawed.  However ... Tamikosmom does not claim to be in the know.  She concedes that she is just speculating on info that is out there.  However ... CAPS was revered who knew and ... the truth would be revealed if his cryptic words could interpretated.

During that four of that five month period ... I took a "complete" sabatical from the SM Site.  When time permitted out of a busy summer ... following the Touch DNA vindication of John and Patsy Ramsey ... I joined a Jonbenet forum on the TOPIX site.

I returned to Scared Monkeys in the fall and ... joined the discussion on the Caylee Marie thread.  However ... when the latest ROV images exposed and ... Kyle's posts submitted to another forum emerged ... I felt somewhat vidicated ... in regards to the Persistence issue and ... the CAPS connection soooo ... I tippy toed back to the Natalee Holloway thread..

If CAPS is the bearer of the truth ... he should just spit it out ... forget the elusive clues.  If CAPS is the bearer of the truth ... justice for Natalee Holloway dictates that the FBI/John Q. Kelly/family of Natalee Holloway should be made aware of the truth in plain English which I know he grasps perfectly (another deception) ... not cryptic messages.

IMO

Janet

[snoopy]

Ldstlou I believe you are being mis-lead.  I'm not going to be drug into this again, and my credibility shot to hell.  I never received complete answers to my questions.  Did it ever occur to you that Jug was not being told the truth?  Did it ever occur to you that Kyle was not being truthful to you?

I'm sorry, but I don't believe what you are being told.  It's false information.  JMO

[texasmom]

I don't post on the Natalee thread anymore because I do not feel I have anything to offer....however I do read and try to keep up, except for the past month or so... this morning I had  time to get caught up and now I wish I didn't.  I think I know why many of us no longer post here. MY GOD!  I have never seen monkeys at each others throat like this. I don't give a damn who you are...or how close you feel you are to 'the family' if you think the family is going to tell you everything...get REAL!!  You post on a public forum...........the family is not stupid. I am really sickened to read a lot of what is on here.....just because someone, 'in the know' tells you something doesn't mean it is TRUE or factual. I am not taking sides with anyone...........but I sure wish some of you would step back....go back and read what you write..............when I read a post that starts out with 'you people' I immediately think Oh F..here we go again!!!  OK...back to lurking........Happy New Year to everyone. Klaas  and Mods...Bless your hearts

Thanks SunnyinTx!  

[truthseeker2]

Buckeye - I admire and respect the way your mind works.

Remember, Freebirds always said "You Decide".

What is the truth?  Take the facts as we know them, remove emotion, feelings, and sometimes friendships as well - and just look at the facts.

What do the facts tell you is the truth?  You Decide.

I do have a little question.  JQK seemed to want to run with the trafficking story.  I just wonder if that is to bring the case to a level of international involvement.  This could permit an international investigation.  The investigation may come to the conclusion that there was no trafficking and the remains were hidden in a cage.  Is it important to "believe" in a bigger theory to legally involve more than internet posters and hidey hole sleuths??

I wondered the exact same thing when JQK was talking to Greta.  I even posted questions about it here at SM...but not many were interested in discussing it at that time.  If JQK can move this story or theory, I think it could get more international attention and put more pressure on Aruba to get to the truth.  At the very worst it could put a spotlight on this huge problem even if the truth about Natalee does not surface.

[ldstlou]

I don't post on the Natalee thread anymore because I do not feel I have anything to offer....however I do read and try to keep up, except for the past month or so... this morning I had  time to get caught up and now I wish I didn't.  I think I know why many of us no longer post here. MY GOD!  I have never seen monkeys at each others throat like this. I don't give a damn who you are...or how close you feel you are to 'the family' if you think the family is going to tell you everything...get REAL!!  You post on a public forum...........the family is not stupid. I am really sickened to read a lot of what is on here.....just because someone, 'in the know' tells you something doesn't mean it is TRUE or factual. I am not taking sides with anyone...........but I sure wish some of you would step back....go back and read what you write..............when I read a post that starts out with 'you people' I immediately think Oh F..here we go again!!!  OK...back to lurking........Happy New Year to everyone. Klaas  and Mods...Bless your hearts

I take it that was directed at me. I am surprised that you don't have a problem with the conspiracy theory Kermit has come up with. Lives are disrupted and careers and relationships are being destoyed and thats ok?

[snoopy]

I don't post on the Natalee thread anymore because I do not feel I have anything to offer....however I do read and try to keep up, except for the past month or so... this morning I had  time to get caught up and now I wish I didn't.  I think I know why many of us no longer post here. MY GOD!  I have never seen monkeys at each others throat like this. I don't give a damn who you are...or how close you feel you are to 'the family' if you think the family is going to tell you everything...get REAL!!  You post on a public forum...........the family is not stupid. I am really sickened to read a lot of what is on here.....just because someone, 'in the know' tells you something doesn't mean it is TRUE or factual. I am not taking sides with anyone...........but I sure wish some of you would step back....go back and read what you write..............when I read a post that starts out with 'you people' I immediately think Oh F..here we go again!!!  OK...back to lurking........Happy New Year to everyone. Klaas  and Mods...Bless your hearts

Howdy Sunny........the voice of reason.

[jen3560]

Looks like a skull and is a skull are not the same thing.  Tim Miller is a hero and I respect him in everyway.  But, from a logical stand point I still am not certain that was a skull in that trap.  Maybe it was...but the information available today does not validate that.

Still to the point, no one appears to have openly questioned the thumbs down at 15:40 on 12/30/07 when the image we are seeing would have been on the monitor.  Why?  (The Why? is rhetorical for this forum.  I know we weren't there so the answer to that would not be available)  We have all kinds of people looking at that image saying "That's a skull".  Yet no one looking at the monitor ever seems to say "Hey, what do mean thumbs down?  I see a skull or something that looks like a skull right there in front of your faces!  Why the thumbs down?"  Is there any evidence that anyone did or said anything like that at 15:40 on 12/30/07?  If so, I have not seen or heard it.  And that is one reason why I have not completely committed to idea that a skull was recovered from that trap.

Sorry if this sounds disrespectful.  I do not mean it that way.  I just don't know any other way to state my opinion on this. 

It didn't sound disrespectful at all to me.

Tim Miller was removed from the Persistence on Dec 30th by John Silvetti.  While Kyle did not go into great detail with us over the reason WHY, he did say it was because John felt Tim had become a liability - and because John and Tim had a disagreement.

When I personally pressed Kyle on the issue of the disagreement between John and Tim - I asked him if it was because Tim Miller shared the same view that Kyle does - that those were human remains in the trap.  Kyle said YES.

[johan555]

I have calculated that the skull in the cage is about 4.5 inches (11.4 cm) long.
That seems to me very small for a skull.

The average Skull Length of a human is 8.45 inches (21.5cm).

Yes i did the same (if it is a skull it is a very small one ) 4 inches
(10 cm )

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I asked a Dive company in Rotterdam if the pics (if' send the pics to them ) were taken with a ROV and what he thinks about the content of the cage .
i spoke with the Owner of the dive company (they work daily (worldwide)with the ROV) and hey said to me that it is certainly not a human body.

Dear Johan,



The images were created with a R.O.V. The images were taken at around 91 f. That means 91 feet approximately 30 meters water depth.

The white stain bottom of the cage is very likely that sand by the weight of the cage through the mesh (net) is pressed. Because the cage at the bottom state.

Photo 2 is a photograph of a t.v. screen on which to see how the R.O.V. about 3 meters above the cage hangs (81 f) right we see the manipulator of the ROV in the picture .. The manipulator is a kind of movable and rotating grasping forceps.

Other photos are the same only what is here played with contrast and color. The objects in the cage are in my view hermit crabs. Hermit crabs have a shell to protect. When they bigger, the shell left, and they go looking for another shell.

A second possibility is that during the submersible of the cage, the cage was rotated 180 º and the bait top of the cage is hung (in order to lure crabs) now on the ground seems to lie. The bait is suspended with a piece of steel wire and a weight to the well to hang. This weight may be anything but what is on a crab boat.

The cage itself is heavily vegetated that is to say that it is already at least half years in the water must have been. Cages are used time and time again, and look not so overgrown off.



I am assuming here that you can continue.





Best regards,



DIVE & COMPANY MAAS Waal
Rotterdam

Thanks Johan. So if there were no bones is it safe to say Kermit is wrong in her "conspiracy theory". John Silvetti didn't plant any evidence in the pond, and Lalas did not conspire with me to promote the conspiracy?

DIVE & COMPANY Maas &  Waal
Is a dive compagny in Rotterdam and they work daily with several ROV's
I phoned them a few  times and they analyzed the pics with several persons there .
This is what they say about the pics .

DIVE & COMPANY & Maas Waal  said also  to me:
When we are somewhere and we use the   ROV and we "See"
human remains,we stay at that location till  the remains are contained.
If necessary, we stay a week or more at 1 location !!
We monitor what we have found but do not go away.

[klaasend]

LDSTLOU - Jug thinks he's being told the truth.  Dave Holloway thinks that MIP6 (the one who is best friends with Renfro) is a good guy and helping.  Jug/Beth/Dave/Robin can be fooled and so can we.

[ldstlou]

Ldstlou I believe you are being mis-lead.  I'm not going to be drug into this again, and my credibility shot to hell.  I never received complete answers to my questions.  Did it ever occur to you that Jug was not being told the truth?  Did it ever occur to you that Kyle was not being truthful to you?

I'm sorry, but I don't believe what you are being told.  It's false information.  JMO

I am not dragging you into anything Snoopy, you made it clear that you were "fooled once" by me and that you won't let it happen again. But you did urge me to get on here and discuss what Kyle told me.

[Frank]

Good monkey


http://www.darkskiesblog.com/2008/12/31/chimpanzee-learns-to-ride-a-segway-hilarious-video-embed/