Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru 11/19/08

[BUCKSHOT]

there must have been other dives ?

Jossy sends out a search crew that know where the crab trap is located and his crew made the first dive ?
and planted the one shoe.. ?

Get the real evidence and plant some new evidence..

Questions, if anyone would answer:
(1) Are we to entertain the possibility of Jossy (or Arubans) to have dove the waters and planted a crab trap, which would later be found by the Persistence crew? Surely, nothing would surprise me at this juncture of the game...
(2) Has it been discovered who steered attention away from the ocean search and to the pond area, as alluded to in the past few days cryptic message clues?
(3) Would ocean evidence cancel all theories as to Caps recent post of Matty appts, dismemberment, hiding of body in pieces around the island?
(4) Has Simian, Shango been 100% conclusively identified? If so, please see to it that their testicles are clamped in a vice and stuck with pins and needles for the thousands of hours spent to decipher and decode their riddles?

Comments, Observations by me:
(1) Jossy has been labeled "hero" to alot of posters. I still say (and borrowed from an old saying) that a dog does not shit where they eat. Meaning that as much as Jossy may dislike Sloot family and, in turn, help NH, SM, and collective causes, I am of the opinion that he realizes where his bread is buttered. His loyalty, in the end, is with Aruba, and its residents. He may be playing both sides of the fence. I hope everyone keeps this in the back of their minds.
(2) Caps, Kermit seem to be trusted as knowing an awful lot in this case. It matters none to me as long as it leads somewhere down the path of truth. I only hope (and assume) that they are as reliable as they are counted on to be by other posters.
(3) Everyone with coded information, in my opinion, should feel some obligation that they may know parts of the conspiracy to cover a crime and, even in secrecy, reveal the information to non-corrupt authority so as to lay this crime, its participants, its cover-up facilitators, etc.. to rest once and for all.

 


Why not throw Peter de Vries name in with all this...just for good Measure!!!

Another one to add...Which may or may not be true...
Some have even suggested political ties, which have prevented this case from being solved.
Hugo Chavez, Dick Cheney, Condoleeza Rice, etc..

Science fiction writers could not make up half of the shit theorized in this tragic case...

[MumInOhio]

BUCKSHOT....I believe the pond only came to light from Caps...Some-one please correct me if I am wrong.

Jan 29th...a post saying pumps were needed...posted yesterday.

Feb 8th?...posts from Caps about the witness on his porch...posted by SS yeserday

There is another post, which I am looking for by Caps that said we had the wrong pond...I believe that is when Caps put on the Monserat Avatar.

I believe Caps knew about the pond before he came here...I also do not think he just happened on SM after visiting his parents. JMO

That does NOT mean that his intentions are not good...

[MumInOhio]

Just out of curiosity, why does everyone believe Kermit is in the know?  I'm not saying he/she is not in the "know" but anyone can sound like it.

LOL...I don't know klaas....I picked up my marbles and left for a while yesterday...Happened to have a Steak Fry to go to...But that was how I felt!!!

[Magnolia]

Just out of curiosity, why does everyone believe Kermit is in the know?  I'm not saying he/she is not in the "know" but anyone can sound like it.

So good to see you here, Klass.  We are like a bunch of lost puppies over
here without you.  I know you are busy with Caylee, but we sure miss you here.

[MumInOhio]

Just out of curiosity, why does everyone believe Kermit is in the know?  I'm not saying he/she is not in the "know" but anyone can sound like it.

So good to see you here, Klass.  We are like a bunch of lost puppies over
here without you.  I know you are busy with Caylee, but we sure miss you here.

Chasing our tails...

[Pita]

Just out of curiosity, why does everyone believe Kermit is in the know?  I'm not saying he/she is not in the "know" but anyone can sound like it.

Good point.

[Blonde]

I'm with VMS, Give me a working link before I believe anything.

[SS]

I don't know if this is the reason Tim left the boat, but in January, shortly after the Persistence search, Dave Holloway asked Tim Miller to head to Nicaragua to arrange for a meeting in search of Natalee.  Dave received phone and email messages indicating drug runners were paid to take Natalee's body and dump it at sea.  They claimed to have taken her remains to Nicaragua and buried them on a strip off the Atlantic coast.   More here.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

Pita - I was just getting ready cut post this when I saw your post.  We are on the same wavelength.


Kermit – thank you so much for your help.  You’re so great.  So, we have John Silvetti and Clyde Burke. Hmmm


I have a nagging thought and I don’t know if it’s connected to anything or not.  It could be something or it could be nothing.  Does anyone have a link to the story Tim Miller/Dave Holloway told about the South American drug dealer who buried Natalee on a beach?  I can’t seem to find it anywhere.

If I recall, Tim or Dave told us that a man had come forward and claimed that he had been paid to dump Natalee’s body in the ocean on the way back to his country.  He was a drug dealer who was moving drugs by boat.  I think Tim said that he and Dave checked his story and even involved the Embassy in the guy’s country.  The drug dealer seemed legitimate, so Dave and Tim made plans to meet him on the beach where he supposedly had buried Natalee.  Tim and Dave traveled to meet the drug dealer on the beach, but he never showed up.  I recall that Tim mentioned something about this temporarily interrupting the Persistence search.  Is this where Tim was on January 7th when ALE took Natalee’s skull from the fish cage?  Was the drug dealer story a setup to get Tim and Dave away from the ship while ALE  divers cleaned the trap?

[Magnolia]

Kermit - I see you lurking.  Here's a treat if you'll help us with the initials.

one is a polis officer.
one is a monkey's uncle.
one is a monkey.

Now can I eat the treat!
ribbit

The monkey  was AG her uncle I think was a Croes

Hi Blonde....I have been thinking AG as well.  All I recall of the Croes relationship was that it was distant...I think...???

Any idea how Cyde Burke fits in...Is it tied to many thinkng he was Simian?  TIA

Aruba Girl is a cousin to Steve Croes if that helps.

Magnolia...please don't take this wrong...LOL....but do you know this for sure?

Some have been round and round on whom both of them are related to that is all!

Mum
Here is Fingirl's post from Shango:

I've hesitated to post this for the longest time
but cousins are currently under discussion, so:

part of the reason finbar drifted away
was disappointment that his research
re AG = simian was disregarded ...
even after he posted her geneaology links
which she herself had made public long ago

fin came to his conclusion re AG 2 years ago
w/o even considering the geneaology angle at that time

his more recent research into the family tree
appeared to show that AG/SGC = cousins ...
sharing a grandmother IIRC

he researched the links and found many familiar names:
Solognier/Solagnier
Oduber
Maduro
Lampe
and a Carlos Guillermo Bareno (et tu, Guillermo?)

fin shared some of this w/ one other poster here AFAIK

he posted the name Solognier/Solagnier
hoping that others here would use the links
and come to the same result he had found

but the tide of research turned toward this Armin (sp?) guy
and away from AG

there was one final name fin ran into ...
one of the most prominent names in this case ...
which I cannot post w/o violating his trust

perhaps fin will return someday
and take up the cause again

[SS]

I am pretty confident that we can trust Kermit.  I also think that Caps' story conatins a lot of accurate information.  I don't know if all of it is accurate, but big pieces of it seem to be.  I could be wrong.

[BUCKSHOT]

I posted this a while back, but, sure seems like a plausible scenario:

Aruba, if it were smart, would devise a plan to have some poeple (Joran, Deepak, Satish, and Paulus) take the fall for the murder and disposal of NH.

Aruba is good at making up stories and spreading them to the world. They have years of experience. The scenario would:

(a) prevent Joran from disgracing/insulting those who have helped him, (b) be an attempt to revitalize any potential tourism, (c) prevent Joran from getting in any further trouble, (d) keep Joran in his own backyard, (e) cost less money to support him, (e) close the case, internationally, at surface level.

Hans Mos could come back onto the scene saying that the new witness has further corroborated the Holland confession. They could twist it to say Joran killed NH accidentally, borrowed a friend's boat, and disposed of her at sea. DK and SK knew that she was dead, but decided to obstruct justice instead of rat a friend out. Kalpoes could get minimum jail time, and get credit for time served, leaving them free men. Daddy(Daury) could get probation for protecting his son, and (like the Kalpoes) obstructing justice. DirtyHand could stay hidden. Corruption could remain hidden. Aruba could say that forensics do not exist any longer, or even create the forensics. They have never shared evidence or produced it with anyone. They could just make up the story, the evidence, the results, and the outcome. Case closed. If anything, it would punish Joran for being such an asshole. Aruba could control the punishment, and the situation, at all times. Everyone would be at arms length.

Scary,but this is definitely possible...Much easier than exposing corruption, hidden players, deviant culture, etc...

[Blonde]

I don't know if this is the reason Tim left the boat, but in January, shortly after the Persistence search, Dave Holloway asked Tim Miller to head to Nicaragua to arrange for a meeting in search of Natalee.  Dave received phone and email messages indicating drug runners were paid to take Natalee's body and dump it at sea.  They claimed to have taken her remains to Nicaragua and buried them on a strip off the Atlantic coast.   More here.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

Pita - I was just getting ready cut post this when I saw your post.  We are on the same wavelength.


Kermit – thank you so much for your help.  You’re so great.  So, we have John Silvetti and Clyde Burke. Hmmm


I have a nagging thought and I don’t know if it’s connected to anything or not.  It could be something or it could be nothing.  Does anyone have a link to the story Tim Miller/Dave Holloway told about the South American drug dealer who buried Natalee on a beach?  I can’t seem to find it anywhere.

If I recall, Tim or Dave told us that a man had come forward and claimed that he had been paid to dump Natalee’s body in the ocean on the way back to his country.  He was a drug dealer who was moving drugs by boat.  I think Tim said that he and Dave checked his story and even involved the Embassy in the guy’s country.  The drug dealer seemed legitimate, so Dave and Tim made plans to meet him on the beach where he supposedly had buried Natalee.  Tim and Dave traveled to meet the drug dealer on the beach, but he never showed up.  I recall that Tim mentioned something about this temporarily interrupting the Persistence search.  Is this where Tim was on January 7th when ALE took Natalee’s skull from the fish cage?  Was the drug dealer story a setup to get Tim and Dave away from the ship while ALE  divers cleaned the trap?

Yes I have this saved, but I need his name to search for it.

[SS]

I did a lot of the genealogy research after Finbar's clue.  TM was also working on it.  I was able to get as far as Grandma and specifically into AGs immediate family, because she had posted the information on her website.  I was never able to verify the descendants of Grandma's other kids for several reasons.  Most genealogy sites don't give the names and data for living people.  Genealogy data for Aruba and the other Carribbean Islands really sucks.  A lot of the family trees from Aruba are actually listed in Dutch genealogy forums which makes it hard to follow.  I was never able to determine if AG, Armin, and Steve are all first cousins.  This information came from other posters who if I recall, were saying that the information had actually come from AG.  I believe a statement was made by AG that she was Steve's cousin, but the family was not close.

[MumInOhio]

Thanks Magnolia...I wish Finbar had stuck around and explained his findings...

Post of
Caps that refers to a pond in Noord and also MIU that was discussed yesterday or Saturday...


850     Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #715 1/25 -



No no

The question is like this

Joran said that they drop the body near the Mariotte are, fishermans hut. but it is not the body that was drop. something else was drop. Joran self was not there, it was the young MIU and the Shivas that went over there but not to build sand casle.

The KALOES (SURINAM) MOBS must have drop someting over there so that The MIU can recovert it and with the f16 send to holland.

but the real body was dumped in a body of water in noord that has not been search

The MUI was a diversion for something else.

[Nut44x4]

Just out of curiosity, why does everyone believe Kermit is in the know?  I'm not saying he/she is not in the "know" but anyone can sound like it.

I know, but I can't tell 

[Magnolia]

I did a lot of the genealogy research after Finbar's clue.  TM was also working on it.  I was able to get as far as Grandma and specifically into AGs immediate family, because she had posted the information on her website.  I was never able to verify the descendants of Grandma's other kids for several reasons.  Most genealogy sites don't give the names and data for living people.  Genealogy data for Aruba and the other Carribbean Islands really sucks.  A lot of the family trees from Aruba are actually listed in Dutch genealogy forums which makes it hard to follow.  I was never able to determine if AG, Armin, and Steve are all first cousins.  This information came from other posters who if I recall, were saying that the information had actually come from AG.  I believe a statement was made by AG that she was Steve's cousin, but the family was not close.

SS your genealogy research was very impressive.  I had tried a long time ago
so I know how convoluted the Carribbean records are.

[vms]

I'm with VMS, Give me a working link before I believe anything.

Thanks, Blonde. I have to read and see for myself.

Way back in the beginning, in Codetalkers, we self-imposed the rule that you had to post links and backup. Too many claims were made without it. I don't have much of a memory but I do remember some of the old nicks and things that went down there. 

[Blonde]

I found this
Beth Twitty pays for search in the sea

Diving Experts Will Assist Texas EquuSearch for ‘fish trap’ Search

O R A N J E S TA D — J a m e s Whitaker, underwater search expert will assist Texas EquuSearch in what the director says is the last attempt to find Natalee Holloway.
An emotional Miller said that he never thought he would stop the search. He continued to look for a way to bring more sophisticated equipment to Aruba, especially after the tip that came in that fishermen lost a fish trap, and that perhaps those who disposed of Natalee Holloway put her body in this ‘crab cage’, along with some rocks, and later threw it at sea, around 3 to 5 miles outside of Aruba. The fish trap is not a verified story, especially given that no one placed a complaint or spoke publicly about losing a fish trap.

According to Miller, it was commissioner Dompig during an interview with America’s Most Wanted, who spoke of the fish trap which disappeared from the fishermen’s hits and that perhaps was used to disposed of the missing teenager. According what Miller said to Bon Dia Aruba yesterday, it was the intention of Dave Holloway, the representative of the state of Kansas Patricia Kilpatrick and Tim Miller to search the dump. “We knew that we didn’t have sufficient equipment to do the work, and out intention was to prepare the work to return, among other things to send equipment from the US to Aruba. At that time, it was Gerold Dompig who told us that he wanted us to do a search some 3 to 5 miles outside of Aruba, because on the night/early morning hours of May 30, there was a theft at the fishermen’s huts. Stole were a knife, some rope and also a fish trap. And it was the commissioner who suggested that there was a possibility that rocks were put in the basket and then thrown into the sea”, Miller said.

Information that Bon Dia Aruba has shows that it was the private Investigator Art Wood who was one of the ones who came up with the fish trap story. And he went to inform Police about this, which in turn advised Texas EquuSearch of the case and that it would be good to search for the ‘crab cage’.
So began the process that with the authorization of the investigative team, began a sophisticated search of the bottom of the sea to determine if this fish trap, in the first place was thrown in the water, and if the body of Natalee was in it. On the other hand, Bon Dia Aruba was the first to report of the theft in one of the stalls at the fishermen’s huts, and the official report was that missing were a machete, a knife and fishing rope. Executives of the Nederlands Forensics Instituut took fingerprints of the hits and the results are known by the Police. Then, there was an agreement between the Police force and the EquuSearch group to undertake the search in the sea. However, the process stalled in October, when the communications between the group and Police broke down.

This time, Miller returned to Aruba with Whitaker, who has equipment that goes more deeply than those that detected the Titanic and met with commissioner Dompig to se if now there is the possibility to be able to perform this search.

According to Miller, commissioner Dompig said that he still believes in the possibility that the fish trap could play a role in solving he case, and also he said to the director of EquuSearch to look for another barrels, to not let anything go.

But Miller is not very optimistic. According to the director of Texas EquuSearch, there is a very small possibility that the fish trap will solve the case or let them find Natalee. “However, even if that chance is 1% and we do not pursue this 1%, it will follow us the rest of our lives”.

Miller is certain that everyone involved in this search is not costing anything to Aruba, only to contribute to show the world that Aruba worked with Whitaker and Texas EquuSearch to find Natalee.

It is good for Aruba to realize who is behind this search, and it is no one other than Beth Twitty, who thanks to big donations in the US, can pay some 60 to 70 thousand dollars that this search will cost. “I asked Beth if she is sure that she wants to do this, given that the possibility that the search will be successful is very small. Her answer was that we must go forward, no matter what the cost”.

WHO IS JAMES WHITAKER

James Whitaker is a ‘remote sensor specialist’ and participated in various deep sea searches with his sophisticated equipment. One of these was to recover the body of passengers of a Boeing 747 which fell in the Indian Ocean. More still, he does archeological and commercial work, such as placing large telephone cables at the bottom of the sea.

Miller got in contact with Whitaker for the big work in Aruba. In the first instant, he wasn’t convinced that he could do the work, since finding a body at sea is almost impossible. But the possibility of find a body in a fish trap is bigger, and as such, he agreed.

Contrary to as first thought, Whitaker is not a part of the forensic dive team of Florida State University. This FSU team came to Aruba twice already and dove in the whole area south of Aruba. The difference is that the FSU divers could go only to a depth of 150 ft., while the sonar equipment belonging to Whitaker can detect objects to a depth of 1000 ft. (around 300 meters). And the area where this will be is more or less 5 miles northwest of Aruba. The expert said that one must realize that this is an area where boats pass, and that for decades perhaps many things have been dumped, iIn other words, he believes that there will be many things found at the bottom of the sea. His equipment can detect the fish trap, if it is there. But it is not an easy process given everything that could be at the bottom of the sea.

The reason why they have to get a special boat from Venezuela to do the work, is because it has to be one that is sufficiently big to be able to carry the equipment.

Once something is detected, the Aruba Police force will be advised, at which time they have to give an order to take out the material from the sea. They will not do anything without Police authorization, Whitaker assured Bon Dia Aruba. “It becomes a crime scene and there will be trustworthy witnesses and Police authorities to verify that everything goes well”. And the only way, if it results that there is an object to take out of the sea, is to use a remote operation vehicle, since it is not possible for people to dive to these depths.

There is still not an exact date that they will start. This will be determined once Whitaker has the logistics prepared. The search itself could last a couple of days.
Whitaker believes that if indeed a fish trap was used to dispose of Natalee and that it was thrown in the area, then he will be able to find it. But Whitaker and Miller are aware that the probability of this is very small.

THOUGHTS ON THE INVESTIGATION

And Miller, how he has said on various occasions, reiterated that after this search, he knows in his heart that he did everything possible to locate the young woman, so that the family can go on with their lives.
Contrary to what he said in the US, he believes that commissioner Dompig and the investigative team is really working hard to solve the case. “I don’t want to have their work, because they have no evidence to work with. The case turned very provocative and the pressure upon the team is immense. I am convinced that they are determined to solve the case, and like her parents, Police want to find Natalee.”

<END>

[SS]

I think we did figure out that Armin's father is Rufo's brother.  Rufo's wife is the sister of Steve's father.  Technically, Armin and Steve are only related through marriage.  This could be wrong, but it's the best that we were able to come up with. 

[Blonde]

I think we did figure out that Armin's father is Rufo's brother.  Rufo's wife is the sister of Steve's father.  Technically, Armin and Steve are only related through marriage.  This could be wrong, but it's the best that we were able to come up with. 

I can tell you this, Finbar is a brilliant man.