Natalee Case Discussion #815 4/8/09 - 4/16/09

[klaasend]

Wanted to have a screen capture.  They must have had some inside information to know about Dateline right?  Or did we already know about Dateline by December 4?



Note:  the "tippster" is saying SOUTH shore which would be closer to the refinery

The trap wasn't 11 miles out either....

Different trap?

[Magnolia]

ldstlou
Re: The Cage « Reply #157 on: March 19, 2009, 12:25:09 pm »

In November and December 2008 when I spoke to Kyle and he e-mailed Jug and I, he expressed to us, the same assessment of John Silvetti as he did in that March 18th documented post at SM, one of repsect and awe.

Kyle Kingman: I had questions which were very unsettling about what I had observed during the search including the events surrounding the trap inspection by the Aruban divers and how the samples were handled by ALE - solely Richardson. This made me very uneasy. It was unsettling and I had no one to talk about it with. The Freebird forum was a place where I could safely discuss the unsettling aspects of the search and see if there were any connections. I only did so after the group agreed that nothing would leave the forum. I never wished for any of it to leave the forum.

http://goldmonkey.org/index.php?topic=980.msg12191#msg12191

Credit: Lifesong


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman - 03/20/08:  Since I got the go ahead from Tim (T), we can legally move forward. The document should follow-up the screen shots and trap content description. We can sent the document after the initial dialog. I trust then she (Beth) will be interested in the document.

The contents of the document should be discussed and agreed upon by the birds. Since I'm new here, I should take a back seat to this IMO. I would think it would be a case synthesis which culminates with the trap contents and lack of interest and motivation to fully process the site. Perhaps Beth will then use the document to create the proper motivation using the information to apply political pressure from both sides. The problem I ran into earlier with the FBI was that their hands are tied to do anything unless they're invited to the party. I think political pressure properly applied will ensure an invite to the party. Thoughts?

Title - perhaps "Case Synthesis and Search Results", or something to that effect.

Credit: Jen

Great job, Janet!


Here's one for you:

Per ldstlou:  Kyle said:  "I said the FBI did a DNA analysis on the sample they received.  They re-interpreted this as having found remains in the trap."

Per Kyle's own post:  "If you quote me, please include the quote for accuracy.  I never said there were no human remains.  I woudn't comment to that effect.  I have neither confirmed nor denied the issue.  The only comment I said was quoting Tim Trahan."

Per Kyle's own post:  "I'm glad you all received that in the spirit it was intended.
- I heard about the possibility of human remains 2nd hand from someone who was under the impression that there were remains.  It's possible they got that impression because DNA testing was being done by the FBI??"

Per Kyle's own post:  "The question over whether or not the FBI has human remains or not is not answerable at this point.  They are not commenting on the case.  They only commented on the fabric sample and that it's not a match to Natalee's blouse.  However, the impression I took away was based on a conversation with someone who told me there were remains, which left me rather suprised to hear from him. But, it's possible that in conversation he confused remains vs. DNA.  Honestly, I was under the impression that if there was DNA, there was remains and so I agreed with him."


I never realized until now that it was Tim Trahan that told Kyle there were remains in the trap...

84   Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 11:11:50 AM 

Quote from OceanExploration

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:
The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

[Lifesong]

Wanted to have a screen capture.  They must have had some inside information to know about Dateline right?  Or did we already know about Dateline by December 4?



Note:  the "tippster" is saying SOUTH shore which would be closer to the refinery

The trap wasn't 11 miles out either....

Different trap?

I don't know, Klaas.  I guess it's possible, but.... 

The mention of Dateline and the tip coming from Houston (if that's accurate) lends itself to someone associated with the Persistence/Texas Equusearch efforts.

However, the Persistence left on 11/30 and arrived in Aruba on 12/15.  I just don't see how they could've found her before they even got there.

I think its just a prediction, of sorts, really.  I am interested in knowing exactly when the Dateline info. was made public though. 

[Lifesong]

84   Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 11:11:50 AM 

Quote from OceanExploration

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:
The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Thank you, Magnolia!

That's the post I was actually looking for!!   

[hotping]

Wanted to have a screen capture.  They must have had some inside information to know about Dateline right?  Or did we already know about Dateline by December 4?



Note:  the "tippster" is saying SOUTH shore which would be closer to the refinery

The trap wasn't 11 miles out either....

Different trap?

Sure seems like Tipster is talking about a completely different trap from the one We have been discussing....  Or there is a possibility that Tipster is FOS...and was just posting to be posting.....

[ohcanada]

good evening monkeys
hope this works
its the skull without the bags
once again if this is olds news please forgive me

[Magnolia]

Wanted to have a screen capture.  They must have had some inside information to know about Dateline right?  Or did we already know about Dateline by December 4?



Note:  the "tippster" is saying SOUTH shore which would be closer to the refinery

The trap wasn't 11 miles out either....

Different trap?

Sure seems like Tipster is talking about a completely different trap from the one We have been discussing....  Or there is a possibility that Tipster is FOS...and was just posting to be posting.....

I think that "Tipster" is Johan trying to prove that a post can be inserted to look like it was posted in real time.

Johan made the statement about dates of posts when the post on Michelle's site were discovered.

[hotping]

Wanted to have a screen capture.  They must have had some inside information to know about Dateline right?  Or did we already know about Dateline by December 4?



Note:  the "tippster" is saying SOUTH shore which would be closer to the refinery

The trap wasn't 11 miles out either....

Different trap?

Sure seems like Tipster is talking about a completely different trap from the one We have been discussing....  Or there is a possibility that Tipster is FOS...and was just posting to be posting.....

I think that "Tipster" is Johan trying to prove that a post can be inserted to look like it was posted in real time.

Johan made the statement about dates of posts when the post on Michelle's site were discovered.

Nothing Would Surprise Me Magnolia.....You Could Very Well Be Right!   

[2NJSons_Mom]

good evening monkeys
hope this works
its the skull without the bags
once again if this is olds news please forgive me

Yes, that is a skull we discussed as a possibility, ohcanada. 

[2NJSons_Mom]

Wanted to have a screen capture.  They must have had some inside information to know about Dateline right?  Or did we already know about Dateline by December 4?



Note:  the "tippster" is saying SOUTH shore which would be closer to the refinery

The trap wasn't 11 miles out either....

Different trap?

Sure seems like Tipster is talking about a completely different trap from the one We have been discussing....  Or there is a possibility that Tipster is FOS...and was just posting to be posting.....

I think that "Tipster" is Johan trying to prove that a post can be inserted to look like it was posted in real time.

Johan made the statement about dates of posts when the post on Michelle's site were discovered.

Nothing Would Surprise Me Magnolia.....You Could Very Well Be Right!   

There was a joking response following tippster's saying something about not trusting 'aunt's'.....my radar went up when I read it...fwiw

[klaasend]

I don't believe for one moment that Johan has the ability to use a Texas IP and insert a comment onto Topix and make it look back dated.  Not Johan or anyone else.  I believe it was posted on 12/4/07 but I'm thinking there was a Dateline segment/short when they were leaving the doc in Lafayette.  I'll see if I can find it.

[ohcanada]

do we know the elevation difference from the raquet club to the fishermens huts

also is there a clear view from the raquet club to the same????

thanx

[2NJSons_Mom]

I don't believe for one moment that Johan has the ability to use a Texas IP and insert a comment onto Topix and make it look back dated.  Not Johan or anyone else.  I believe it was posted on 12/4/07 but I'm thinking there was a Dateline segment/short when they were leaving the doc in Lafayette.  I'll see if I can find it.

 

I just was mentioning the comment about not trusting 'aunt'....I don't think anyone made a comment with any adjusted date.   

[klaasend]

I don't believe for one moment that Johan has the ability to use a Texas IP and insert a comment onto Topix and make it look back dated.  Not Johan or anyone else.  I believe it was posted on 12/4/07 but I'm thinking there was a Dateline segment/short when they were leaving the doc in Lafayette.  I'll see if I can find it.

 

I just was mentioning the comment about not trusting 'aunt'....I don't think anyone made a comment with any adjusted date.   

Right but Magnolia mentioned Johan spoke of the date 

[antunym]

Thank you Janet your amazing! My only thought to all of this is that if indeed there is an actual video that Kyle got screen shots from then what is missing in these screen captures?  It's like we are given a before and after shot.  If we had the whole video we would know what was collected. Did Kermit get to see the whole video while Kyle was dealing with the freebirds?  I'm sure the whole video would reveal  anything extra (the skirt, bones, etc) If there was only plastic pieces collected from the cage then it would be nothing evidence related and Kyle could show it to prove it right?  JMO

Kermit would have to confirm but ... I think we have been privy to all the images that Kyle has revealed.

However ... aside from the images we have been afforded Kyle Kingman's own words regarding his professional interpretation of what the ROV footage revealed.

Janet

++++++

KYLE KINGMAN - QUALIFICATIONS

Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Innovative solutions in ocean exploration. Specializing in Marine GIS, side scan sonar interp and processing, magnetometer/gradiometer processing, hydrographic surveys, project management, reporting, and charting.

Saturday, March 21, 2009

More:
http://geosolutions.blogspot.com/


THE ANALYSIS

The fabric - The Tarp - The vertebrae - The Skull

Kyle Kingman:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.
 
Kyle Kingman:  This is how the Dateline episode happened:
Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand/

Kyle Kingman: The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

 Kyle Kingman: Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand. I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs. I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location. Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle Kingman: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion that last pic from Jan 7th should be absolutely intriguing and flip your mind from what you thought you knew. In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric.

Kyle Kingman: Notice the blue fabric swayed in the current.

Kyle Kingman: The blue tarp piece was found approx 6-10 ft away from the trap opening.

Kyle Kingman:  I am 100% confident other important items are at that site and can be found during processing of the site with a suction system.  The only confirmation of items sampled were blue fabric and the piece of tarp.  This is the only thing Richardson and Mos independantly confirmed.  Remember, they each only confirmed one piece.  One confirmed blue fabric, the other confirmed tarp.  From the video you see both.

Kyle Kingman: The most likely to remain at or near it's original location was the skull, which is why I was so convinced the object pictured was a skull.

Kyle Kingman: I'm sorry if this is disturbing. I took the picture of Natalee standing on the beach and cropped, rotated, and scaled the image to correlate with the trap body form. Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

Kyle Kingman: The bag that is above the denim bag looks to me as though it contains pieces of vertebrae.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman:  The sediment in this case is fine-grained sand which is preferencially deposited to make a body form. For sand to preferentially deposit, there needs to be a lower energy state where the sand collects and stays. This can be achieved either with a shallow depression creating accomodation space and lower potential energy (not the case) or by creating small eddy currents due to surface friction. The sediment around the door area is being eroded or removed by currents. Where the body was, it is being deposited. Basically, the fabrics created enough resistence for sediment to preferentially collect on it. Further, bacterial staining due to decaying organics acts as a mild cementing agent. Combined, you will have sediment erosion around the body form and deposition on the body form which collects through time. In this case, possibly 2 1/2 years.

OK, so which parts have we taken out of context and how?

[Magnolia]

I don't believe for one moment that Johan has the ability to use a Texas IP and insert a comment onto Topix and make it look back dated.  Not Johan or anyone else.  I believe it was posted on 12/4/07 but I'm thinking there was a Dateline segment/short when they were leaving the doc in Lafayette.  I'll see if I can find it.

 

I just was mentioning the comment about not trusting 'aunt'....I don't think anyone made a comment with any adjusted date.   

Right but Magnolia mentioned Johan spoke of the date 

My apologizies to Johan.

It was Mum in Ohio that posted at GM

LMAO
And birdies posted on Michelle's blog....dates can be changed ya know...just sayin'

[antunym]

Thank you Janet your amazing! My only thought to all of this is that if indeed there is an actual video that Kyle got screen shots from then what is missing in these screen captures?  It's like we are given a before and after shot.  If we had the whole video we would know what was collected. Did Kermit get to see the whole video while Kyle was dealing with the freebirds?  I'm sure the whole video would reveal  anything extra (the skirt, bones, etc) If there was only plastic pieces collected from the cage then it would be nothing evidence related and Kyle could show it to prove it right?  JMO

Kermit would have to confirm but ... I think we have been privy to all the images that Kyle has revealed.

However ... aside from the images we have been afforded Kyle Kingman's own words regarding his professional interpretation of what the ROV footage revealed.

Janet

++++++

KYLE KINGMAN - QUALIFICATIONS

Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Innovative solutions in ocean exploration. Specializing in Marine GIS, side scan sonar interp and processing, magnetometer/gradiometer processing, hydrographic surveys, project management, reporting, and charting.

Saturday, March 21, 2009

More:
http://geosolutions.blogspot.com/


THE ANALYSIS

The fabric - The Tarp - The vertebrae - The Skull

Kyle Kingman:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.
 
Kyle Kingman:  This is how the Dateline episode happened:
Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand/

Kyle Kingman: The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

 Kyle Kingman: Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand. I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs. I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location. Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle Kingman: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion that last pic from Jan 7th should be absolutely intriguing and flip your mind from what you thought you knew. In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric.

Kyle Kingman: Notice the blue fabric swayed in the current.

Kyle Kingman: The blue tarp piece was found approx 6-10 ft away from the trap opening.

Kyle Kingman:  I am 100% confident other important items are at that site and can be found during processing of the site with a suction system.  The only confirmation of items sampled were blue fabric and the piece of tarp.  This is the only thing Richardson and Mos independantly confirmed.  Remember, they each only confirmed one piece.  One confirmed blue fabric, the other confirmed tarp.  From the video you see both.

Kyle Kingman: The most likely to remain at or near it's original location was the skull, which is why I was so convinced the object pictured was a skull.

Kyle Kingman: I'm sorry if this is disturbing. I took the picture of Natalee standing on the beach and cropped, rotated, and scaled the image to correlate with the trap body form. Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

Kyle Kingman: The bag that is above the denim bag looks to me as though it contains pieces of vertebrae.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman:  The sediment in this case is fine-grained sand which is preferencially deposited to make a body form. For sand to preferentially deposit, there needs to be a lower energy state where the sand collects and stays. This can be achieved either with a shallow depression creating accomodation space and lower potential energy (not the case) or by creating small eddy currents due to surface friction. The sediment around the door area is being eroded or removed by currents. Where the body was, it is being deposited. Basically, the fabrics created enough resistence for sediment to preferentially collect on it. Further, bacterial staining due to decaying organics acts as a mild cementing agent. Combined, you will have sediment erosion around the body form and deposition on the body form which collects through time. In this case, possibly 2 1/2 years.

OK, so which parts have we taken out of context and how?

Sorry I am trying to figure all this out lol.  I don't think anything that has been revealed was taken out of context.  It's straight from the person that was there and opened his mouth about it IMO. I just feel that there is something more in these videos that we haven't seen that would prove the existance of human remains.  Why so hush hush about it if there wasn't? Maybe someday we can have the whole video in our possession so that it can be investigated fully by the best investigators around (my fellow monkeys)

[2NJSons_Mom]

Maybe so, antunym....we surely hope for more, that is a given.   

[Anna]

Well, it surely seems that a lot of posters made a lot of comments before they should have had anything to comment about.

That is just plain strange.  Did all of them just make lucky guesses?

[Keepthefaith]

Just wanted to say goodnight to all the Monkey's..Me thinks that we'll need life jackets and possibly scuba gear in the future...

"The weather started getting rough,
The tiny ship was tossed,
If not for the courage of the fearless crew
The Monkey's would be lost, the Monkey's would be lost."


Dedicated to LifeSong and the Monkey Bunch.....


                                JUSTICE FOR NATALEE HOLLOWAY

                                    GOODNIGHT AND GOD BLESS

                                                KEEPTHEFAITH